X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: misterbeefy on October 09, 2009, 03:33:20 PM
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Hey guys, sorry to bother, but i'm stumped. I'm trying to replace my existing 4 way switch setup and i can't seem to get it working. i'm attaching a little drawing i did of my layout. In the master gang box, there are 2 pair of wires, one white and one black in each sheath. I assume one black goes to the light, and the other is hot. i assume the two white wires are the "travelers" I have them hooked up as such. I've even swapped which one is screwed into control, but it's not working. I'm getting a lit up LED on the master when i throw the breaker back on, and it will get brighter when i press one of the slave switches, or it will go off, depending on which wire is in the control side on the master. What am i missing here? any ideas?
Thanks! B:(
(http://forums.x10.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=18850.0;attach=1106)
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there seems to be something missing in these sketches. Where are the travelers in the master switch box. Do you have existing x10 switches or conventional because the hot will only travel from one switch box to the other in the conventional setup where the hot is constant with the x10 devices looks like there is a wire missing in your master box maybe it is stuffed in the back of the box .. and you might have them confused as to what they actually do...
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only 2 drops coming into the master box. each drop has a white wire and black wire and the naked copper ground. that's it. all were conventional switches, but i am replacing all 3 with x10, 1 master and 2 slaves.
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The box that you call the master is probably in the middle of the two other switches the black and white are most likely travelers in and out. I am not real good with making pictures and such on this forum. But the Power should come into one box then travel on two wires to the next and then the same two travelers leave and go to the last box the common screw on three way switch's are either the hot or the switch leg looks like your neutral is left out of the switch boxes most likely only in the light... pretty common old school wire job.. did the master have four screws if it did use the black wire for hot and find out where the other end is at and use the white for control unhook all the wires and use an extension cord plugged in to find the hot put the master in that box and then follow the diagram in the switch box. assuming you are using a volt meter You can reference the ground or neutral from the extension cord. At least that what it seems like your set up with Be carefull not sure why things kind of work with the pic you showed with out seeing it first hand...
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In the box you called Master. Where all four wires connected to the switch? If so it is only swapping the Travelers as mentioned.
http://www.askthebuilder.com/B141_3_Way_Switch_Wiring_Diagram_and_4_Way_Switch_Wiring_Diagram.shtml
http://www.ask-the-electrician.com/4wayswitchdiagram.html
What X10 switches are you using?
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Yeah Brian, all 4 wires in the master box were connected to a 4 way switch. I didn't realize it at first when i disconnected it and didn't pay attention to what was connected where ???
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You may get a clue from the 4 way switch. Look at it and see if it has any markings on it or if there are brass and nickle plated screw heads for connections.
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yeah, there are, but as I said, I forgot which wires were connected where when I disconnected it. I didn't realize at the time that it was the master. I was thinking it was one of the others. How can I tell which wires are the "travelers" in that box? I assume it's the two white ones, with one black being "hot" and the other going to the light itself. I'm not sure which one to put in to the "control" part of the x10 switch.
Thanks for the patience and help guys.
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I Told you how. Get an extension cord. unhook every thing and find the hot. that box had one hot and two travelers. then hook the hot to one of the travelers in that box go to the box with four wires and find it then hook it to the other of the same color in that box. Go to the last box and find it. now you can find the switch leg, touch it to one of the wires until the light goes on that wire will be the switch leg use the one you found for constant power and the other for control you need a volt meter or light to do this and the neutral from the extension cord plugged into the wall the neutral will be the big hole on the left when you look at it.. assuming you know how to test for 120 volts.. Good luck.
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Sorry bud, but I was and still am a little confused about your post. What does an extension cord have to do with it? How am I supposed to plug an extention cord into a switch? Or are you referring to the wires in the box?? If so, which one of the 3 boxes? The master that had the 4way or one of the two slaves?
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NO you just plug the extension cord into any plug that works . Now you have a reference location to ground, neutral and hot if you need it. Put the black wire on the voltage checker into the neutral of the cord and use the red to find the hot wire in one of the boxes. Only one wire in all three boxes should be hot with all the wires disconnected. once you have done that you can hook the hot wire up to the next wire and follow it to the next box like i noted earlier. let me know if you understand what I mean. If you don't have a meter or something like a test light.. I can tell you how to make one out of a light bulb but I would rather you had a meter.
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Ok I see what you're saying. I disconnected everything and started over. I found the one hot wire which is in slave 1. I hooked it up to each of the two traveller wires and went to each box to see which wires were then hot. I hooked everything back up according to instructions and had semi-success. When the master, and slave 1 are in the ON position, I can HOLD DOWN the button on slave 2 and the lights will come on, but as soon as I release it, they go off again. In other words, slave 1 will "click" the master switch, but slave 2 doesn't. Is something still wrong with the wiring, or could I be looking at a bad switch (slave 2).
Thanks again for all your help!
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Now did you put the wall dimmer module in the box that you found the first hot wire. That box should be your new so called master box the. The box you reference as master is the middle box in the plwo2 directions the box with the 4 wires two sets of travelers should have both blue wires on the companion hooked to the live wire you decided to make hot all the time, formally a traveler. Then follow the rest of the directions from x10. I believe plwo2 and ws467 are both comparable. If you are trying to use the others style switch I think you will need a neutral wire witch it doesn't look like you have that option. Unless you add one.. You should probably use the black wires as hot all the time and wire them to each other and find it in the last box so you can identify the switch leg or common live to live or lamp. A normal switch consist of one live and one switch leg touch them together and the light comes on in a 3way they are referred to as the common wires this is confusing but they are the important ones.. They have to be in the proper place or nothing works.. the travelers can be swapped around.. With the x10 device you need to differentiate the travelers so one is hot and one is control so use black for hot and the white one for control in your case.. Hope this helps . Good luck?
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Thanks for sticking with me on this one Mellowmark ;) Unfortunately, I'm totally confused now lol. I'm using the WS13 masters and their respective slaves, because the "light" in question is actually 2 ceiling fans with lights. I put the master switch in the box in my picture named MASTER. The black wire labled HOT, and one of the white wires are actually the traveler wires. That switch will now come on and "click" when you push it. The same for slave 1 in my drawing. If both of those are on, then I can hold down the button on SLAVE 2 in the drawing, and the lights/fans will come on. Slave 2 wires are actually as follows: If the other switches aren't installed, all wires are dead. The white wire is HOT all the time when the other two switches are installed. I have it connected to the LINE input on the slave switch. The black wire is connected to the other LINE input. It wasn't hot at all when I applied voltage to the traveler wires when testing. The RED wire is connected to the SWITCH input. Now it was a funny guy. When I was testing the wires and applied voltage to the BLACK traveler wire in the MASTER box, both the RED and WHITE wire in slave 2 would go hot. However, if I applied the voltage to the WHITE wire in the MASTER box, only the WHITE wire would go hot in slave 2. What I found strange about this is that it led me to think that the BLACK is the SWITCH wire, but when I hooked it up like that, NONE of the switches worked.
The problem is, the room that these fans/lights are in is my den. It is actually the old garage that was converted by a previous owner. ALL THREE of the switchboxes were installed and wired at a DIFFERENT time, because of two seperate add-ons/enclosures. Therefore, the wire used in all three are different from each other, making it VERY difficult to troubleshoot.
I hope this helps, if not, would it be better for me to take photos of each of the three boxes/switches for you to look at?
Thanks again bud, I really appreciate the help!
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Yea I thought this was an odd add because the box with the two sets of travelers is sort of an odd setup.. And don't feel bad it can be very confusing.. If this wasnt set up right in the first place you might have to open the boxes in the cealing where the fans are to fix it.
You need to understand what you Have. If you look at it the simplest, you could take the one wire that is hot with every thing unhooked and touch it to the wire in slave 2 that was never hot that would probably turn on the light.. Its kind of like there would only be one switch those two wires are considered the common wires in a threeway set up all the other wires are travelers
You need to put the main switch in your slave box 2. I think that one has the load wire (the one that never was hot when tested). if you look at the x10 pro site you will see that your switch is the same as the xpss switches, and it needs to go in that box to work right. I don't know how to link it here so maybe someone else can help. But other wise hook the one that started out hot with the other black wire travelers and to the hots in the diagram for the companion switches, then use the white travelers for the control red on the companion and main switch hook the blue main xpss to the load (never hot one)and every thing should be fine.
as long as this switch setup worked like a 4way switch set up is supposed to in the first place. Hope whoever originally put it in had it working like it should. see if you can look up those digrams atwww.x10pro.com/pro/pdf/3-4way.pdf (http://www.x10pro.com/pro/pdf/3-4way.pdf) figured it out.
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you know what else you can try is just hook the black hot wires starting with the hot wire one at a time and follow it from switch box to switch box until you get to the last one remember the extension cord trick. or use one of those voltage sensors that just feels the power.. and lights up
then hook it to the load wire (one never hot ) light should come on -:)
start in that box only put the main xpss or ws13 in that box it should work by istself like it was the only switch then go back and add the companion switches to the setup.. good luck!
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Just wonder how you did misterbeefy.. hope all is well.
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I have an X10 4-way switch circuit that is also driving me crazy. While it works fine from each of the switches, it won't respond to X10 commands. It has worked in the past, but no more. I've tried filters, repeaters, unplugging virtually everything in the house, all to no avail. The only thing I haven't done is replace all of the X10 switches in this circuit.
This circuit controls some exterior lighting, and 99% of the time I would only use a timer to switch it on or off. I'd like remove the extra switches. I think the circuit looks like this:
LIVE ---- MASTER ---- SLAVE ---- SLAVE ---- LIGHT
---- ----
NEUTRAL ------------------------------------
So... if I want to hard wire the circuit and only use one switch, what do I do in each of the three current switch locations?
Which end does the single X10/INSTEON switch go on? Which connections get wire nutted together? To make things more challenging, the electrician only used black and white wires - no easy to find red travelers.
Thanks in advance!
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You need to let us now more.
All the switches like the pro ws14 or xps and insteon device wire in alittle different. Just like we went over below.
Now if you want to just use one box location and wire nut the other boxes up and close it up. You will see if the regualar switch is working.
You will need to understand witch wire is going where before you do it though. You should be able to connect two wires in each box and follow the hot all the way to light. Think simply all a switch does is touch two wires together.
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Just wonder how you did misterbeefy.. hope all is well.
Hey bud, I got so frustrated, that I left it alone. My switches are still hanging out of the wall lol. I started a new job and haven't had time to fool with it. Hopefully, I'll be able to try to go through all this again this weekend. I'm sure I'll be posting some new questions!
Thanks again for all the help!
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If you have a decent volt meter with an ohm setting on it and you turn the circuit off you can ohm out the wires in each box to figure out what they are. If you were local I would gladly come help.
;-)