X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: Brandt on May 05, 2010, 03:42:09 PM
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I have a w800usb in the garage and an unknown length of a mix of RG59 and RG6 cable ran up to the attic above the second floor where the antenna that came with it is mounted nearly above the center of the home.
I started having problems a week ago getting inactive sensor alerts from my security sensors and ms14a's failing to update their dusk setting which in turn made scripts to turn on lights at night fail, etc...
Over the weekend I went back up into the attic and realized where I put it was very near a metal exhaust duct of some sort, which I think might have been causing the problems.
I then moved the antenna another six feet or so away from the duct and the errors seem to go away.
Now there is only one ms14a I am having problems with and It is the farthest away from the antenna, near the entrance walkway to the house to turn on the front door lights as guests arrive any time during dark hours. It is also mounted very near the front metal gate. I am wondering would the metal gate affect it's transmitting abilities? Could certain weather affect transmissions?
Would this antenna improve reception from further located sensors?
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103641
I'd prefer to not have to do the passive radiator hack if I don't have to.
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There was a mention of a Radio Shack antenna in another CM15A mod thread.
Not sure if anyone actually was using it or asking opinions.
http://forums.x10.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=r7jdfhd1qu3rmbo1s3j7k6r6d3&topic=19959.0
It definitely will receive the X10 310MHz signal.
It has an SO239 cable connector on it so you would have to rework the F connector on the antenna end of the cable or find {if made have not checked} a Female F to PL259 adapter.
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I was going to pick one up on my lunch break but I decided to wait.
I should stand out there with a palm pad and see if it can receive those signals from the same location. It may be just that the batteries are too weak? Who knows...
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Here is a convincing thread: http://www.thevirtualcrib.com/phpbbdir/viewtopic.php?p=2771&sid=7e2639f3c70c580c0eab2c709fa3fe23#2771
They recommend the adapter:
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103322
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From what they found in the thread. It sounds good.
I was not sure if Radio Shack would have the F to PL259 adapter. Glad you also found its part number.
If you get it I am sure we will get a report that may benefit all of us.
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Do big metal gates, or satellite dishes interfere with the 310mhz rf signals?
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Do big metal gates, or satellite dishes interfere with the 310mhz rf signals?
Not unless the motion sensor is attached to them
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well the nifty radio shack antenna w/ adapter barely worked at all for me with my setup. However once I am able to replace some of the RG59 cable in it's path and shorten it's path, I maybe get better results. But for now I am sticking with the short whip antenna that came with it.
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like the xtbm is for x10 signals, are there any affordable coax cable testers and RF signal strength testers out there?
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Do you have a multimeter?
Will not give 100% but you can do some tests with one.
Diagram from the antenna is vague on if it has any tuning coil on it. I don't think it does.
So with the antenna disconnected. The ohms reading between the center and shell should be infinite at the receiver end. Unless you are holding both probes with your fingers. Then you may read your bodies resistance.
If you short the center to the shell at the antenna end. You should get a fairly low reading at the receiver end.
Then screw the connector into the antenna and again read the receiver end.
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I just can't seem to pickup 'that one' ms14a near the front of the house...it's driving me nuts...maybe I'll have to try the passive radiator trick on the ms14a itself...
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Well I finally ran a straight shot of 50ft of RG6 through the walls and floors to the radio shack antenna and it works great! I must say, that the shack antenna is much more sensitive to differences in the cable where before I had a mix of RG6 and RG58/59 in the cable run and it didn't work at all, while the whip antenna worked fine. I can't say however that this antenna is leaps and bounds ahead of the whip antenna. I would say whatever works for you all because there are so many different factors involves. Trial and error I guess...
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ugh this drives me nuts....So now that I got the outside front entry way ms14a to get picked up by the antenna....The DS10a in the same area just inside the house now does not get picked up when it sends it's heartbeat signal every 4 hours.
Current setup when this is happening is 50ft of RG6 with the radio shack antenna.
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ugh this drives me nuts....So now that I got the outside front entry way ms14a to get picked up by the antenna....The DS10a in the same area just inside the house now does not get picked up when it sends it's heartbeat signal every 4 hours.
Current setup when this is happening is 50ft of RG6 with the radio shack antenna.
Have you tried just mounting the antenna as high in the room as possible with the 12 ft cable supplied with the W800? I've been told that losses in cables longer than about 15 feet generally offset any gains from higher mounting.
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My server is located in the garage, and the garage has no rafters only finished ceilings and of course it is in the extreme front of the house so the RF signals from the back of the house were not getting to it when i was using the 12ft cable and the stock antenna. I'd say everything works pretty good right now except the one DS10a heartbeat so I guess I can live with that, but I wish I understood RF better. The DS10a is on the far side of the chimney so I wonder if the bricks absorb some signal or block it not sure. Anyway I guess I'm going to try the passive radiator with copper foil tape trick, or maybe relocate the ds10a transmitter.
I'm sure i'll get it eventually, but this RF stuff is mysterious to me.
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I'm sure i'll get it eventually, but this RF stuff is mysterious to me.
For what it's worth ... (I'm over simplifying - feel free to correct/clarify anything) (And I'm not trying to sound 'preachy')
RF (Radio Frequency) is part of a wave continuum called the electromagnetic sprectum. The major divisions (from longer wavelength to shorter) are:
- Radio frequency, including (in no particular order)
Radio
Television
Mobile phones
Wireless networking
Amateur radio
- Microwaves
- Terahertz radiation
- Infrared radiation
- Visible radiation (light we see)
- Ultraviolet light
- X-rays
- Gamma rays
Wavelength and frequency are inversely proportional. RF with its longer wavelengths has lower frequencies than do Gamma rays with extremely high frequencies and extremely short wavelengths.
Think of RF as being analagous to light -
Signal intensity is dependent on the power of the source - usually measured in watts. A 100 watt light bulb gives off much more light that a 25 watt bulb. And you can see things further away when using a 100 watt bulb. In the CB radio world, a 5 watt transmitter will permit communications at a greater distance than a 1 watt transmitter.
Light will penetrate some substances better than others. You can see things through glass but not through a fireplace. Similarly, RF waves will penetrate some substances better than others, sheetrock (drywall) offers less resistance than real rock.
Light bounces off of surfaces to create shadows behind opaque objects. So does RF waves.
Both light and RF require an antenna and a mechanism to transmit the signal to a processor. For light, the eye is the antenna and the brain is the processor.
Some differences between light and RF.
Light, generally, travels in a straight line giving rise to the phrase "line of sight".
RF, with its longer wavelength, can bend around some objects. This property is more pronounced as the frequency decreases. The Navy, prior to satellite communications, used very powerful ELF (Extremely Low Frequency) transmitters to send messages to ships at sea. The signal followed the curvature of the earth for great distances.
The human eye can adapt to varying light levels allowing us to see over a wide range of 'transmitter power' conditions.
An RF antenna/processor system generally cannot adapt to transmission power levels. A number of conditions can cause an RF signal to degrade/decay/change such that the X10 receiver is unable to receive/interpret the signal -
- Signal strength
- Radio-opaque objects in the signal path
- Metal objects that can alter the signal frequency
- Etc.
Hope this helps remove some of the mystery.
Mel
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.... The DS10a is on the far side of the chimney so I wonder if the bricks absorb some signal or block it not sure. Anyway I guess I'm going to try the passive radiator with copper foil tape trick, or maybe relocate the ds10a transmitter.
Between the heavy brick work and a big metal [garage] door your garage could be an unfriendly area for the tiny DS10A RF units. I've extended the wire to the magnetic reed switches on some of my DS10A units... by more than 30 feet. Moving the units can make a world of difference.
I'm sure i'll get it eventually, but this RF stuff is mysterious to me.
Mel99 certainly presented as nice a writeup about RF as I've seen in a while.
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Mel99 certainly presented as nice a writeup about RF as I've seen in a while.
Thanks - I was a Communications Tech in the Navy in the 60's. Chief Petty Officers and senior First Class Petty Officers can be very persuasive when it comes to ensuring that a rookie Seaman (me) learned what they taught. :'
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I'd say everything works pretty good right now except the one DS10a heartbeat so I guess I can live with that,
Well, maybe not. If you are not reliably receiving the DS10 heartbeat at your receiver (CM15A?), then you may not always pick up the actual alarm signal. since from an RF propagation stand point, the two signals are identical, other than duration.
Chimney brick shouldn't be a problem, but metal in the path between the DS10 and your CM15A, such as a sleeved chimney or foil backed insulation could be causing your headaches. The passive repeater antenna or relocating the DS10 transmitter may help.
RF travels in waves, with peaks and valleys (nulls). If you have mounted the DS10 so the CM15A is at a null point of the signal from the DS10, moving the DS10 about a few inches closer to the CM15A or a few inches farther away from the CM15A may put the CM15A out of the null of the wave and fix your problem.
Yeah I know, it sounds weird. But have you ever been in your car listening to a weak FM station, pulled up to a stop light and had the station fade out? You could bring back the station by allowing the car to roll a foot or so? If you have ever seen this, it is perfect example of your cars antenna being in the signal null at your initial stop. and moving a small amount gets it out of the null point.
That may be all you have to do here.
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Mel99 certainly presented as nice a writeup about RF as I've seen in a while.
Thanks - I was a Communications Tech in the Navy in the 60's. Chief Petty Officers and senior First Class Petty Officers can be very persuasive when it comes to ensuring that a rookie Seaman (me) learned what they taught. :'
I was a Cryptologic Technician Communications (CTO3) in the Navy in the 2000's! :'
I only really learned what I had to know to do my job on the ship (USS Nimitz), but I didn't really understand it in depth. We used encrypted HF LOS and SATCOM for voice. Other then that is was mostly encrypted computer networking for data.
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I was a Cryptologic Technician Communications (CTO3) in the Navy in the 2000's! :'
I got out as a CT2. Any relationship with the folks at ONI or NSA?
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I was a Cryptologic Technician Communications (CTO3) in the Navy in the 2000's! :'
I got out as a CT2. Any relationship with the folks at ONI or NSA?
There is No Such Agency ;)
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Chimney brick shouldn't be a problem, but metal in the path between the DS10 and your CM15A, such as a sleeved chimney or foil backed insulation could be causing your headaches. The passive repeater antenna or relocating the DS10 transmitter may help.
RF travels in waves, with peaks and valleys (nulls). If you have mounted the DS10 so the CM15A is at a null point of the signal from the DS10, moving the DS10 about a few inches closer to the CM15A or a few inches farther away from the CM15A may put the CM15A out of the null of the wave and fix your problem.
Cool! I moved the ds10a kinda temporarily to allow it to peek around the corner of the wall that houses the chimney so it has a more direct shot to the attic and it worked! Not a single inactive sensor email in the middle of the night!!
I was not aware the the chimney was wrapped in foil insulation (house was built in '77)...That might have been the problem with this.
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Chimney brick shouldn't be a problem, but metal in the path between the DS10 and your CM15A, such as a sleeved chimney or foil backed insulation could be causing your headaches. The passive repeater antenna or relocating the DS10 transmitter may help.
RF travels in waves, with peaks and valleys (nulls). If you have mounted the DS10 so the CM15A is at a null point of the signal from the DS10, moving the DS10 about a few inches closer to the CM15A or a few inches farther away from the CM15A may put the CM15A out of the null of the wave and fix your problem.
Cool! I moved the ds10a kinda temporarily to allow it to peek around the corner of the wall that houses the chimney so it has a more direct shot to the attic and it worked! Not a single inactive sensor email in the middle of the night!!
I was not aware the the chimney was wrapped in foil insulation (house was built in '77)...That might have been the problem with this.
I ended up putting the ds10a back were it was for a couple nights for one last test before attaching a longer wire to it in order to relocate it. The problem seems to have gone away...that is no more inactive sensor emails...after resetting the ds10a with a new code. I wonder how a new code could affect it's transmissions...
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Brandt,
Put the directive "DISPLAY_SENSOR_INTV YES" in your config file. This will append to each DS10A sensor signal displayed in the monitor/logfile the time elapsed from the previous transmission. With the DS10A heartbeat interval of approx 70 minutes, and the default INACTIVE_TIMEOUT of 4 hours, two out of every three heartbeat signals could be lost without triggering the "inactive" indication.