X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: fleff on November 11, 2010, 09:12:13 AM
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Hi, I've had X10 in my home for over 10 years now, and have not had this type of issue before. Out of nowhere, my bedroom light is coming on repeatedly. I don't have any new appliances or anything like that. Ideas? Suggestions? Do you think replacing the plug-in bedside controller would help?
Frank
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This is going to sound silly, but make sure the bulb is tight in the fixture. If it is, try changing the House Code for a day, which will tell if something else is turning on the light via X10 command (neighbor, bad controller, etc.)
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Hi, I've had X10 in my home for over 10 years now................... Do you think replacing the plug-in bedside controller would help?
I am going to trust your feelings there Frank. If you think that pressing that same bedroom light button on and off for a decade has maybe worn out that button. Maybe your right. Ether way following dave w's idea and switching to a different button... might let you know. Keep us in touch.
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If you use any X10 remote controls.
You may also want to check none of them have something intermittently pushing one of the buttons.
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If you use any X10 remote controls.
You may also want to check none of them have something intermittently pushing one of the buttons.
Brian H Great idea!!!! Like a missing PalmPad that has fallen down behind a mattress? Wouldn't be the first time would it!
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Update: While I'm not ready to shut the door on this case, I think I solved the issue by buying a new bedside control pad for all of $12.95.
Frank
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Glad to hear you may have found the problem.
I had a RR501 start spitting out garbage all by itself when it got old.
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If you use any X10 remote controls.
You may also want to check none of them have something intermittently pushing one of the buttons.
Brian H Great idea!!!! Like a missing PalmPad that has fallen down behind a mattress? Wouldn't be the first time would it!
hmmm maybe that's where mine went! I need to check there when I get home!
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Glad to hear you may have found the problem.
I had a RR501 start spitting out garbage all by itself when it got old.
Well....after nearly a week of trouble-free operation, things are back to where they were. Even with the new keypad, the Poltergeists are back. Any and all suggestions are welcome.
Frank
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Well....after nearly a week of trouble-free operation, things are back to where they were. Even with the new keypad, the Poltergeists are back. Any and all suggestions are welcome.
Neighbors? Bad module?
1. Try changing your house code to eliminate X10 commands coming from external sources.
2. Swap the bedroom light Wall Switch or Lamp Module with one that is behaving normally.
All you can do is troubleshoot by process of elimination.
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Well....after nearly a week of trouble-free operation, things are back to where they were. Even with the new keypad, the Poltergeists are back. Any and all suggestions are welcome.
Neighbors? Bad module?
1. Try changing your house code to eliminate X10 commands coming from external sources.
2. Swap the bedroom light Wall Switch or Lamp Module with one that is behaving normally.
All you can do is troubleshoot by process of elimination.
How close would neighbors need to be? I live on 2 acres. Can I presumably eliminate neighbors? Also, I've seen the poltergeists attacking at least three different modules, so it can't be that (I think).
Finally, when you say, "change the house code", what does that mean? Sorry. I'm an amateaur at this. the x10 system in this house was mostly inherited from the prior owners. Appreciate any help. I nEED SLEEP!!
Frank
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Red dial on module. House Code A-P.
You may want to reset all of them to a different House Code.
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Red dial on module. House Code A-P.
You may want to reset all of them to a different House Code.
OK. Will try that. How does a particular code cause problems?
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It normally doesn't, but trying a new one can eliminate some possible things like other X10 users.
Also since A is the universal as shipped House Code. Many choose to not use it as again others may be using them and dying batteries in motion sensors set them back to A1.
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How close would neighbors need to be? I live on 2 acres.
Finally, when you say, "change the house code", what does that mean? Sorry. I'm an amateaur at this. the x10 system in this house was mostly inherited from the prior owners. Appreciate any help. I nEED SLEEP!!
Frank
Do you share a utility company "pole transformer" with a neighbor.
changing the House Code would eliminate the possibility that your neighbor is controlling your lights.
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How close would neighbors need to be? I live on 2 acres.
Finally, when you say, "change the house code", what does that mean? Sorry. I'm an amateaur at this. the x10 system in this house was mostly inherited from the prior owners. Appreciate any help. I nEED SLEEP!!
Frank
Do you share a utility company "pole transformer" with a neighbor.
changing the House Code would eliminate the possibility that your neighbor is controlling your lights.
Don't know if I do or not. I changed the code, and everything seemed to be good for a couple of days. Then....the gremlins came back again. One thing I should add is that this issue is not limited to just the bedroom. The hallway and sometimes the patio lights are also affected. I really need a solution, otherwise I need to unhook the X10 completely.
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Any new gadgets added recently?
Power use monitor or anything like that?
I have seen posts in some automation forums the TED5000 can be a troublemaker for both X10 and Insteon.
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Don't know if I do or not. I changed the code, and everything seemed to be good for a couple of days. Then....the gremlins came back again. One thing I should add is that this issue is not limited to just the bedroom. The hallway and sometimes the patio lights are also affected. I really need a solution, otherwise I need to unhook the X10 completely.
Two acres isn't important, whether you are on the same power transformer as neighbors does.
IF you changed your HOUSE CODE on all units and the problems remains, then it probably isn't your neighbors. Does your power flicker or brown out? Both can cause X10 modules to come on.
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We dont know much about your system you did say it's 10 years old and...
Update: While I'm not ready to shut the door on this case, I think I solved the issue by buying a new bedside control pad for all of $12.95.
Frank
PLC's (PowerLine Commands have to be put on your powerline somehow (since it is random modules it can't be just a bad module or switch). If it was an "eye sensor" somewhere that maked it appear to be random... changing the House code would have fixed that also. Even a defective TM751, lost eye sensor, or a remote in the seat cushions would likely appear to be fixed with a house code change.
So with a new controller, and new house code(s)... I am lost for an idea without more information about what all is part of your setup.
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We dont know much about your system you did say it's 10 years old and...
Update: While I'm not ready to shut the door on this case, I think I solved the issue by buying a new bedside control pad for all of $12.95.
Frank
PLC's (PowerLine Commands have to be put on your powerline somehow (since it is random modules it can't be just a bad module or switch). If it was an "eye sensor" somewhere that maked it appear to be random... changing the House code would have fixed that also. Even a defective TM751, lost eye sensor, or a remote in the seat cushions would likely appear to be fixed with a house code change.
So with a new controller, and new house code(s)... I am lost for an idea without more information about what all is part of your setup.
My set up is actually very simple. I have one bedside controller, and four modules that operate various lights in the house. Some interior lights, and some exterior. Here is the inventory of modules. All are wall switch variety.
Channel 1: Front and back porch lights
Channel 2: Outside patio lights (2-way switch + a 1-way). The switches are inside
Channel 3: Bedroom (2-way switch)
Channel 4: Hallway (2-way switch)
I also have a plug-in module, a battery operated wall-mounted control pad, and a key fob, but I have not re-programmed any of those to the new code, so they are effectively non-existent.
I'm not sure this helps, but it's really all I have to go on.
Frank
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So did you change the house code or not. If so, are the lights still coming on?
BTW in X10 remote control there are no "channels". Do you mean Unit Code?
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So did you change the house code or not. If so, are the lights still coming on?
BTW in X10 remote control there are no "channels". Do you mean Unit Code?
I did change the house code. Yes, I guess I meant unit code.
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My set up is actually very simple. I have one bedside controller, and four modules that operate various lights in the house. ............ I also have a plug-in module.........
I will assume (and... I know to never do that) that the additional "plug-in module" must be a TM751... or else you'd never be able to use any of your RF remotes. I would (again I know better) assume it is malfunctioning... and interpreting any signal it receives as an X10 signal and putting that on the line. Try unplugging it.
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My set up is actually very simple. I have one bedside controller, and four modules that operate various lights in the house. ............ I also have a plug-in module.........
I will assume (and... I know to never do that) that the additional "plug-in module" must be a TM751... or else you'd never be able to use any of your RF remotes. I would (again I know better) assume it is malfunctioning... and interpreting any signal it receives as an X10 signal and putting that on the line. Try unplugging it.
OK. This is the first one that actually makes logical sense! It's unplugged (it is a TM751)! I'll let you know if that didn't do the trick. :-) Thanks in advance. Are these things "notorious" for causing this kind of behavior? Is this a known issue? What other kinds of signals might it receive?
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Let us know if it corrected the problem.
I don't remember seeing anything on the TM751 sending false signals, but have seen things on fixing dead one.
I had a RR501 start doing funny things and traced it to the power supply in it.
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not to steer this thread in another direction, but do you per chance have cfl's in the sockets?
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not to steer this thread in another direction, but do you per chance have cfl's in the sockets?
I do...in the hallway. But they've been there for years without any issues.
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Not too common, but we have seen here and in Insteon related forums. A deteriorating a CFL starting to cause problems.
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.......... Are these things "notorious" for causing this kind of behavior? Is this a known issue? What other kinds of signals might it receive?
No. Whatever is happening there is somewhat rare. Generally speaking... most errors or failures with X10 result in failure to turn off. Generally caused a setup with considerable noise or signal absorption problems (often from the very device that refuses to turn off). From time to time a user will have a light or device that refuses to turn on. Noise and/or signal absorption can also cause that as well. But it is also just as likely a phase issue (or signal strength problem)... most of the time. This IS NOT chiseled in stone and is only MY observations.
Almost always.... when a device turns on for no reason... it is a forgotten battery powered "eye" sensor somewhere, or commanly a PalmPad remote in the sofa cushions (again MY observation). I believe an antenna modification on a receiver (like your TM751) can cause errant [PLC] signals as a result of misinterpreted reception. But I am guessing that a TM751 could act as a modified unit if placed near an object that might act as a passive reflector (another antenna, golf club, large metal object). But.. if you have a remote unit sending a signal... removing the TM751 will provide temporary relief as well.
Both Brian H and Knightrider have a very good point about a deteriorating a CFL starting to cause problems as well.
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.......... Are these things "notorious" for causing this kind of behavior? Is this a known issue? What other kinds of signals might it receive?
No. Whatever is happening there is somewhat rare. Generally speaking... most errors or failures with X10 result in failure to turn off. Generally caused a setup with considerable noise or signal absorption problems (often from the very device that refuses to turn off). From time to time a user will have a light or device that refuses to turn on. Noise and/or signal absorption can also cause that as well. But it is also just as likely a phase issue (or signal strength problem)... most of the time. This IS NOT chiseled in stone and is only MY observations.
Almost always.... when a device turns on for no reason... it is a forgotten battery powered "eye" sensor somewhere, or commanly a PalmPad remote in the sofa cushions (again MY observation). I believe an antenna modification on a receiver (like your TM751) can cause errant [PLC] signals as a result of misinterpreted reception. But I am guessing that a TM751 could act as a modified unit if placed near an object that might act as a passive reflector (another antenna, golf club, large metal object). But.. if you have a remote unit sending a signal... removing the TM751 will provide temporary relief as well.
Both Brian H and Knightrider have a very good point about a deteriorating a CFL starting to cause problems as well.
New update: The TM751 is now unplugged. The desktop controller is also unplugged. The lights are still coming on. Seems to happen more at night. Next step is to rip it all out.
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Hi Frank,
I see the frustration level is at max. Might I suggest, since you're about to 'rip it all out', go ahead and do that.
All except for one X10 controlled light; the one most toyed with by the gremlins. Take the batteries out of all
remotes, keyfobs, etc...anything that can generate an X10 signal - totally disable them. Watch that single light for
a day or two and see what happens. Oh, and make sure that single light has an incand. bulb in it while running
this test. I'm a fan of the K.I.S.S. method when troubleshooting. Don't give up!
Let us know and good luck.
Afterthought:
That incand. bulb...make it a little 25 watt'r so if it does come on, it'll be less intrusive during REM :)
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Hi Frank,
I see the frustration level is at max. Might I suggest, since you're about to 'rip it all out', go ahead and do that.
All except for one X10 controlled light; the one most toyed with by the gremlins. Take the batteries out of all
remotes, keyfobs, etc...anything that can generate an X10 signal - totally disable them. Watch that single light for
a day or two and see what happens. Oh, and make sure that single light has an incand. bulb in it while running
this test. I'm a fan of the K.I.S.S. method when troubleshooting. Don't give up!
Let us know and good luck.
Afterthought:
That incand. bulb...make it a little 25 watt'r so if it does come on, it'll be less intrusive during REM :)
Yeah, this is actually what I was going to try next. I have a question, though. With the TM751 unplugged, wouldn't a key fob and remote panel be useless anyway? Also, if I disable (slide the little switch to the left) my CF hall lights, is that the same as ripping it all out?
Frank
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Yes to the first question. Assuming you've got nothing else converting RF to PLC's.
To the next question, I wouldn't assume. It's possible an X10 device, thought to be disabled, could be malfunctioning
and sending data across the powerlines. If you want to be certain, go through the pain and take it out of the equation.
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Also, if I disable (slide the little switch to the left) my CF hall lights, is that the same as ripping it all out?
Yes, it is the same as removing it from the system. The slide switch is a safety disconnect and it completely disconnects the power in the switch.
BTW I scanned this thread but did not find the model of your wall swtches. Since you mention the slide switch I assume they are X10 either two or three wire (neutral, hot, load). None of the X10 [wired] switches are transmitters.
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When we first moved in here we had a problem with one type of Leviton dimmer occasionally switching on by itself. They are rocker-switch dimmers with a LED light bar showing the current setting. They are not X10 controlled. There are a total of five in bedrooms and master bath. They would go on at random times always in pairs. There was no pattern to which two would switch on. The fact that they switched on in pairs on different circuits indicates they were responding to something on the powerline. And interestingly, while this occurred maybe once or twice a month for about a year, the problem eventually went away.
Jeff
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Also, if I disable (slide the little switch to the left) my CF hall lights, is that the same as ripping it all out?
Yes, it is the same as removing it from the system. The slide switch is a safety disconnect and it completely disconnects the power in the switch.
BTW I scanned this thread but did not find the model of your wall swtches. Since you mention the slide switch I assume they are X10 either two or three wire (neutral, hot, load). None of the X10 [wired] switches are transmitters.
OK. With all modules turned off I left only the one in the bedroom on and it is still coming on uncommanded. WHat do I do?
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Reading through this thread, I'm not sure whether you changed the housecode or unit code. If you haven't changed the lettered housecode (A-P) to something else (not M), try that first.
If you already did that and it didn't help, then something on the powerline is causing that switch to go on. I have a set of 4 CFLs in my office/lab that I use for testing. They generate a lot of powerline noise, and the noise sums together in random patterns that almost looks like X10 signals. While they normally just block X10 traffic, I have seen them morph one X10 command into another. So, be sure that any CFLs or other potential noisemakers (such as small wall-wart power supplies) are isolated with filters or unplugged.
Lastly, if you have some means of logging X10 traffic through your X10 controller, then go through that log and see if there are any logged commands around the time that light switches on. Both the CM11A and the CM15A include the ability to log X10 traffic as a text file on the PC.
Jeff
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Reading through this thread, I'm not sure whether you changed the housecode or unit code. If you haven't changed the lettered housecode (A-P) to something else (not M), try that first.
If you already did that and it didn't help, then something on the powerline is causing that switch to go on. I have a set of 4 CFLs in my office/lab that I use for testing. They generate a lot of powerline noise, and the noise sums together in random patterns that almost looks like X10 signals. While they normally just block X10 traffic, I have seen them morph one X10 command into another. So, be sure that any CFLs or other potential noisemakers (such as small wall-wart power supplies) are isolated with filters or unplugged.
Lastly, if you have some means of logging X10 traffic through your X10 controller, then go through that log and see if there are any logged commands around the time that light switches on. Both the CM11A and the CM15A include the ability to log X10 traffic as a text file on the PC.
Jeff
Jeff,
I did change both the house and unit codes to no avail. To try to isolate the issue, I turned off all wall modules (that's all I have) with the exception of the bedroom. In other words, the only thing on line was that one room, and the lights still came on. SO it's got to be some other appliance/light in the house...I think. However, at this point, I have no idea what it could be or how to begin to track it down. You mention logging in your post. Does that mean that there's a PC program somewhere that could help track this down?
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You mention logging in your post. Does that mean that there's a PC program somewhere that could help track this down?
The logging is a feature of the CM11A and CM15A controllers. They can create a log file on an attached PC.
Jeff
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Hey Frank,
whew... so, you've disconnected ALL X10 equipment and removed ALL batteries from ALL X10 battery-powered
devices...? And I mean everything.
You've left only the one 'module' controlling one lamp plugged in. You've changed his housecode to something you've
never used before.
And the gremlins are still flicking on that single lamp?
I have ZERO experience with wall switches. I trust the guys on the forum when they say the 'slide switch' disables
the device. I would prefer that you completely disconnect the switches; as much of a pain as it is...
On your next reply, I'd love it if you would list your devices again but with X10 model numbers. A great time to take
inventory anyway since we're gonna get this working and you will be building your X10 installation even bigger :)
thanks for your patience. I know....
mike
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Slide switch unless broken. Disconnects the power to the WS467 switch.
It is a safety feature since power is taken through the bulb. If you where changing the bulb you could get a shock. If not turned off.
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Hey Frank,
whew... so, you've disconnected ALL X10 equipment and removed ALL batteries from ALL X10 battery-powered
devices...? And I mean everything.
You've left only the one 'module' controlling one lamp plugged in. You've changed his housecode to something you've
never used before.
And the gremlins are still flicking on that single lamp?
I have ZERO experience with wall switches. I trust the guys on the forum when they say the 'slide switch' disables
the device. I would prefer that you completely disconnect the switches; as much of a pain as it is...
On your next reply, I'd love it if you would list your devices again but with X10 model numbers. A great time to take
inventory anyway since we're gonna get this working and you will be building your X10 installation even bigger :)
thanks for your patience. I know....
mike
Clarification question: I did not, when performing this test, remove batteries from my key fob and my remote wall mounted panel. I did, however, unplug the TM751 transceiver module. Do you think it's possible that one of the gremlins could be one of the tiny battery operated devices? Even with the TM751 out of the picture? I need to add that the gremlins will randomly affect 1 of 3 rooms, all of which are controlled by wall switches. This makes me think that it's NOT the wall modules, but rather some other thing in the house.
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If the TM751 is the only X10 RF signal receiver and it was unplugged. Then the remotes and wireless wall switches should not be able to control anything.
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fleff,
Is the bedroom light coming on randomly or is it the roughly the same time every day?
Although this should not cause the bulb to come on in a two wire wall switch fixture, but I'm going to ask anyway. Did you check the bulb in the fixture for tightness?
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fleff,
Is the bedroom light coming on randomly or is it the roughly the same time every day?
Although this should not cause the bulb to come on in a two wire wall switch fixture, but I'm going to ask anyway. Did you check the bulb in the fixture for tightness?
Hi, yes, it's random. It's also not restricted to this one room. The hallway (also 2-way switch) behaves in the same manner, as do my patio lights. That one is just a single switch. I've tried to ascertain a pattern as well as to think what else might be happening at the same time, but there doesn't seem to be any correlation that I can ascertain.
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Hi, yes, it's random. It's also not restricted to this one room. The hallway (also 2-way switch) behaves in the same manner, as do my patio lights. That one is just a single switch. I've tried to ascertain a pattern as well as to think what else might be happening at the same time, but there doesn't seem to be any correlation that I can ascertain.
Well that pretty much eliminates my loose bulb theory. The different wall switches are not all coming on simultainously? but individually, and randomly, correct?
Side thought: Lights are not coming on when large appliance starts, are they? (i.e. heat pump, furnace, electric heat, well pump, etc.).
This whole thread is really puzzling. Either something you are leaving out (forgetting) or you have a poltergiest.
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Hi, yes, it's random. It's also not restricted to this one room. The hallway (also 2-way switch) behaves in the same manner, as do my patio lights. That one is just a single switch. I've tried to ascertain a pattern as well as to think what else might be happening at the same time, but there doesn't seem to be any correlation that I can ascertain.
Well that pretty much eliminates my loose bulb theory. The different wall switches are not all coming on simultainously? but individually, and randomly, correct?
Side thought: Lights are not coming on when large appliance starts, are they? (i.e. heat pump, furnace, electric heat, well pump, etc.).
This whole thread is really puzzling. Either something you are leaving out (forgetting) or you have a poltergiest.
That's right. There's no telling which wall switch will come on and when. As I've said, there's no apparent correlation between heat, etc... coming on. It doesn't mean that there isn't one, it just means that it may not be apparent to me. I doubt that the well pump is turning on in the middle of the night when nothing is demanding water. So frustrating.
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Frustrating is too simple. What addresses to all the different wall switches have? Leave nothing out. Also list any new electronic devices that came into your house since just before your first post. Any and all computers in the house should be listed and checked.
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...... or you have a poltergeist.
I wasn't sure there was any history of poltergeist effects on X10... so I did a search. Sure enough, no poltergeist has ever had a negative effect on an X10 setup.... that has been reported to this forum. (In German, poltern means to knock and geist means spirit. And I didn't find any mention by the OP of a knocking sound.). So I widened my search. Gremlin's.. are a different story! Several posts regarding a gremlin effecting X10 have previously been reported here. After a gremlin search... I reviewed the posts and think the two posts below might provide clues worth searching.
http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=5605.msg39419#msg39419
http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=18249.msg101881#msg101881
OK... admittedly I am grasping at straws here. But I have reviewed this entire thread at least twice and I really think we have to be missing something. My [newest] guess is a repeater plugged into a remote [basement] receptacle or wired-in by the breaker box (and long ago forgotten). Or some other device that can also create noise or signals on the powerline (some intercoms, faulty CFL's, a device unknown to me).
I'd check each and every plug in the house... and remove anything unknown, unused, or otherwise concerning.
Next... I may check out some of the problems caused by a guy named... Murphy.
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IF all tranceivers are disconnected then it must be PLC, whether "morphed", or from something hidden, or (I don't think we have eliminated) neighbor, but it is unlikely.
I question the "morphed" codes because fleff said he changed HC and UC on everything. Seems to me, that would rule out artifically generated ON codes(?).
Without a traffic log, I still put my money on "something missed".
fleff did you install the X10 in the home, or did it have X10 (any) when purchased?
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IF all tranceivers are disconnected then it must be PLC, whether "morphed", or from something hidden, or (I don't think we have eliminated) neighbor, but it is unlikely.
I question the "morphed" codes because fleff said he changed HC and UC on everything. Seems to me, that would rule out artifically generated ON codes(?).
Without a traffic log, I still put my money on "something missed".
fleff did you install the X10 in the home, or did it have X10 (any) when purchased?
Some was installed, but I added to it. The one MAJOR change to the house was the installation of a new septic system. For those not familiar, this is one of those new stystems that has a control box to control a 24-hour aerator and a pump to...well..you know. The issue actually began quite some time ago on just the patio lights, but that well prior to the install of the septic system. It was confined for the longest time to that one set of lights, and since I didn't use them all that often, I simply turned the wall module off unless I wanted to turn the lights on manually. It wasn't until more recently, when the Gremlins/Murphys/??? stated affecting my livin spaces, that I sought out this forum.
Now that I'm really focusing on things, I think I can sum up the issue by saying it's been happening for quite some time, and that the issue is progressively getting worse. One other piece of seemingly unrelated (but could it be?) data is that one the breakers in my breaker box is leaking some sort of fluid. I discovered this today quite by accident. Is it POSSIBLE that this slow decline of something on the powerline could be causing all of this?
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Is it POSSIBLE that this slow decline of something on the powerline could be causing all of this?
IMHO
Degradation in the electrical system or noise from the septic pump control could cause loss of X10 communications but it is a lot harder to explain the random lights coming ON. Although Jeff Volp has posted several times that he has seen noise "morph" an X10 signal.
For safety reasons, not X10, I would replace the leaking breaker. I did not know they made oil filled household breakers, but that is the only thing I can conceive that would leaking out of a breaker.
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Leaking fluid from a breaker could well be ectoplasm.
This would also explain the first report of poltergeist activity rofl
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Leaking fluid from a breaker could well be ectoplasm. This would also explain the first report of poltergeist activity
I may have been much to quick to rule out poltergeist! fleff are you sure there isn't any "knocking"?
I'd get a ether an exorcist or an electrician to look at that box ASAP. I have seen water leak into a basement mounted panel.
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Thanks to all for your help on my issue. After several months, I will be solving the problem today with a quick trip to home depot. In short, I'm a former X10 user. :-(
Frank
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Well you gave it your best shot before removing the X10 equipment.
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Thanks to all for your help on my issue. After several months, I will be solving the problem today with a quick trip to home depot. In short, I'm a former X10 user. :-(
Frank
That is a bummer [Frank] fleff. It has to be something unusal (as far as noise) on your powerline (IMHO). If not inside your home.... on the outside before (between you and) the transformer. I would guess that could include a neighbor.
I hope you also have that leaking breaker taken care of as well.