X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: madbrain on November 13, 2010, 02:47:55 AM
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I'm using three XPS3 in my home theater to control the 3 sets of cans.
Set #1 of 6 large cans is controlled by one XPS3, and XPSS in another room.
Set #2 has 9 smaller cans.
Set #3 has 5 even smaller cans.
I have both an IR543 controller plugged into the wall to control the lights via IR remote from the couch, and a TM751 to control the lights via RF from outside the home theater.
I am having the following issues :
1) For set #1, in the 2nd room, the light on the XPSS never comes on, regardless of the state of the switch. This is very minor, but still bothers me. What could cause this problem ? Does anyone else have this problem ?
2) I have a lot of issues with the 2nd set of cans. I bought some R20 11W CFLs from 1000lightbulbs.com . They are Overdrive brand. When I use them, I can use the X10 controllers to turn the lights ON, but they will not come OFF. Even if I press the physical buttons on the IR543. The only way to turn the lights off is to press the XPS3 wall switch. Once that happens, none of the other X10 signals for the other switches work either.
I have tried other lightbulbs from Home Depot and Lowe's, of 11W and 14W. The mix I have right now somehow works. But it took hours to find a working combination. And occasionally I still get into the state where the X10 signals stop working - I can't turn the lights off after turning them on, unless I get up. Which is very annoying - ruins the whole point of having X10 !
3) I'm using some 7W CFLs candelabra-style CFLs in 3rd set of cans. These are the only CFLs I could find that fit. And they stick out... But better than 50W halogens they replaced still. However, if I fill more than 2 cans, I can't turn the lights off via X10 anymore too. If I remove some bulbs from set #2 I can add some to set #3 . It's quite strange.
FYI, I'm using some FEIT 15W CFLs from Costco in set #1 . Those never seem to cause issues after they are turned on. I can always turn them off.
From my google searches, the problems with X10 signals no longer going through appear to be related to noise issues from certain bulbs. What are specific models of bulbs that are known to work well ? And is anyone running as many CFLs as I am on one phase with 3 switches ?
FYI, the house has over 220+ cans with CFLs total. But the ones in the HT are the only ones on X10.
4) I have also noticed that if I leave set #3 completely empty of bulbs, a faint light comes up on the 3rd XPS3 even if "off" state. Is this expected ?
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Noise and signal suckers of the X10 signals.
Do you have any phase coupling between the homes phases? If not the X10 signals will have a hard time reaching half the homes wiring.
Do you have any X10 type filters on your electronic devices? Many electronic devices can absorb X10 signals or make power line noise.
1) Sounds like a phase issue. Signals not getting to the switch.
2) Weak signals and the Overdrive bulbs making enough noise to not allow them to turn off. When off the noise is not there and you can turn them on. Are the Overdrives CFL or CCFL? I have some of their CCFLs and am not impressed with them.
3) Also sounds like noise or weak signals.
4) Maybe normal. There could be some small leakage from the relay on or off status sensing circuit.
You may get better results with trying to lower the noise or coupling the phases of the home. Than hand selecting bulbs.
Links to some troubleshooting tips.
http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm
http://www.act-remote.com/PCC/uncle.htm
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As you know, some CFLs can be problematic. The internal switching circuitry can radiate noise onto the powerline. If that noise is near the X10 bandpass, it can block X10 modules from decoding the commands.
We have ceiling cans here too, but only a fraction of what you have. So I didn't have to be concerned about what type of bulb is in each of those fixtures, I installed Leviton 6287 filters behind each X10 switch controlling those lights. As a result, we have never had any problem with those X10 switches in spite of the diverse selection of bulbs. In fact the only CFLs that generate noise are the ones in my office/lab. They are not on the X10 phase, and don't corrupt X10 communication. I have not filtered them because they are handy for testing.
One other thing to consider is that even though you are only using X10 in your HT, noise from other CFLs can also interfere if those circuits are on the same phase at your distribution panel. If the HT is the only circuit that will ever be controlled by X10, you can isolate that circuit from the rest of your electrical system with a 20 amp XPF filter. That would avoid having to add individual filters on each CFL lighting circuit.
Jeff
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1) For set #1, in the 2nd room, the light on the XPSS never comes on, regardless of the state of the switch. This is very minor, but still bothers me. What could cause this problem ? Does anyone else have this problem ?
Check your instruction sheet. I believe it states the XPSS LED to be inactive.
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Dave w,
1) For set #1, in the 2nd room, the light on the XPSS never comes on, regardless of the state of the switch. This is very minor, but still bothers me. What could cause this problem ? Does anyone else have this problem ?
Check your instruction sheet. I believe it states the XPSS LED to be inactive.
Thanks, you are right ! I had an electrician install the wall switches so I didn't notice that. That's one I don't need to worry about anymore.
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Noise and signal suckers of the X10 signals.
Do you have any phase coupling between the homes phases? If not the X10 signals will have a hard time reaching half the homes wiring.
There is no phase coupling anywhere at the moment. In the home theater, all the recessed cans are on the same phase. Some of the wall outlets are on one phase, and some on the other. I made sure the IR543 and TM751 transceivers are both plugged in to the correct phase outlet. On the other outlets, they just never work.
Do you have any X10 type filters on your electronic devices? Many electronic devices can absorb X10 signals or make power line noise.
The only thing hooked to X10 switches are those recessed cans. Do you mean filters for all the electronic devices in the house ? I have dozens. In the home theater alone there are a bunch. They are on filtered switches (some Monster, some Belkin).
1) Sounds like a phase issue. Signals not getting to the switch.
Looks like it's a feature actually, that XPSS LED is not supposed to work. I wonder why it's there.
2) Weak signals and the Overdrive bulbs making enough noise to not allow them to turn off. When off the noise is not there and you can turn them on. Are the Overdrives CFL or CCFL? I have some of their CCFLs and am not impressed with them.
They are CFL. http://1000bulbs.com/product/2768/FC11-R2027OD.html
3) Also sounds like noise or weak signals.
So what do I do about the noise ?
What kind of filter should I use ? Do I need one filter at each XPS3 switch ? Or a filter for each recessed can ?
4) Maybe normal. There could be some small leakage from the relay on or off status sensing circuit.
I'm not overly worried about it. Especially since I'm trying to fill those cans. But right now I can't because of the noise issues.
You may get better results with trying to lower the noise or coupling the phases of the home. Than hand selecting bulbs.
I need some pointers for bulb selection. Clearly the ones I have used don't work too well.
http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm
http://www.act-remote.com/PCC/uncle.htm
Thanks, I'll look at that.
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We have ceiling cans here too, but only a fraction of what you have.
So I didn't have to be concerned about what type of bulb is in each of those fixtures, I installed Leviton 6287 filters behind each X10 switch controlling those lights.
Thanks, I'm going to look at that model. Does it need a lot of room ? I know my electrical boxes are fairly tight already. Each of them has at least 3 switches in them. sigh.
One other thing to consider is that even though you are only using X10 in your HT, noise from other CFLs can also interfere if those circuits are on the same phase at your distribution panel. If the HT is the only circuit that will ever be controlled by X10, you can isolate that circuit from the rest of your electrical system with a 20 amp XPF filter. That would avoid having to add individual filters on each CFL lighting circuit.
There is actually one other room where I'm using X10. It is my home office. I have another XPS3 that replaced a switch that was stupidly placed behind a door. It controls 2 recessed cans with CFLs in that room. But it is on the other phase. That switch never has any problem operating, though.
I do plan to expand my X10 network throughout the house. But I don't want to use it to control any recessed lighting. 80 of the 105 switches in the house were recently replaced with vacancy sensors to switch off the lights automatically when nobody is home. The switches were previously dimmers that prevented any CFLs from working. Even "dimmable" CFLs did not work.
I only want to add X10 appliance modules to shut things down when nobody is home, and turn them back on when needed. The real-time idle power consumption of my home (with no lights on) is between 730 and 900 watts at the Smartmeter depending on whether the fridges/freezers are in cooling phase or not.
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Thanks, I'm going to look at that model. Does it need a lot of room ? I know my electrical boxes are fairly tight already. Each of them has at least 3 switches in them. sigh.
The Leviton 6287 is fairly small (1.6" x 1.9" x .8"), and it fit behind the X10 switches in all our electrical boxes. If there is no room there, you can install it at the first light in the string.
I do plan to expand my X10 network throughout the house. But I don't want to use it to control any recessed lighting. 80 of the 105 switches in the house were recently replaced with vacancy sensors to switch off the lights automatically when nobody is home.
Ceiling lighting is usually on separate circuits from wall outlets. Since those lights will not be controlled by X10, you can isolate those entire circuits with 20A XPF filters if noise from those CFLs becomes a problem.
For the X10 controlled lighting, you would install one 6287 between each X10 switch and the ceiling fixtures controlled by that switch.
Jeff
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hi Jeff,
Thanks, I'm going to look at that model. Does it need a lot of room ? I know my electrical boxes are fairly tight already. Each of them has at least 3 switches in them. sigh.
The Leviton 6287 is fairly small (1.6" x 1.9" x .8"), and it fit behind the X10 switches in all our electrical boxes. If there is no room there, you can install it at the first light in the string.
I do plan to expand my X10 network throughout the house. But I don't want to use it to control any recessed lighting. 80 of the 105 switches in the house were recently replaced with vacancy sensors to switch off the lights automatically when nobody is home.
Ceiling lighting is usually on separate circuits from wall outlets. Since those lights will not be controlled by X10, you can isolate those entire circuits with 20A XPF filters if noise from those CFLs becomes a problem.
For the X10 controlled lighting, you would install one 6287 between each X10 switch and the ceiling fixtures controlled by that switch.
Jeff
I purchased three of the Leviton 6287 filters . Unfortunately, there is not enough room in the electrical box. And the install instructions say not to put them together in the same box as other wiring devices. I would need to have some drywall done to make space for another box to put the filters. Kind of a pain. One of the 3 switches is a 3-way, also, and it seems I can't just put the filter together with the switch, it has to be just before the load, which means opening the ceiling drywall to find the load wires. I'm about to return the filters to Amazon before my return period runs out.
Actually, the electrical box with the 3 XPS3 switches is so tight that one of the wires (neutral) had fallen off. This apparently explained some of the issues with the 3rd switch. I had an electrician discover that. We checked everything and it seemed to have fixed every X10 problem in the home theater room when he was present.
Of course, the gremlins came back after he left :(
Now it's the light at the first switch that won't turn off. It may be that another wire fell off again after the electrician closed down the box . The 3 switches were tested before it was closed. Sigh.
I have put some XPF plug-in filters on everything in the home theater room except the X10 RF receiver and X10 IR543 IR receiver. Both are plugged in to the same outlet. I have tried different outlets too, and it makes no difference. I also have a Radioshack plug-in X10 remote controller.
Everything seems to work fine with RF. I can turn things on/off properly.
I now have the following problem :
1) I turn on the light at the first XPS3 switch. It doesn't matter if I do it by using local control (wall switch press), RF control, button press on the IR543, or IR signal from my remote
2) I send an IR command to the IR543. Any command. The IR543 freezes, with the red light staying on.
3) From that point on, no X10 works anymore through the IR543, from IR signal or button press, from the RF receiver, or from the plug-in remote. The only way to restore X10 functionality is to turn off the light at the XPS3 wall switch, or wait a few minutes - something like 2 to 5 minutes ! It's an inordinate amount of time.
The following scenario fails too :
4) I turn on the light at the first XPS3 switch. It doesn't matter if I do it by using local control (wall switch press), RF control, button press on the IR543, or IR signal from my remote
5) I press buttons on the IR543. For example "4" and then "ON". Usually by the first or the second button press, the IR543 freezes.
6) Same problem as 3). above with the freeze.
The following are not a problem :
7) I turn on the light at the first XPS3 switch. It doesn't matter if I do it by using local control (wall switch press), RF control, button press on the IR543, or IR signal from my remote
8) I issue X10 commands via RF remote, or the plug-in remote.
9) Everything behaves as expected
In other words, if I unplug the IR543, I never have any problem with X10 operation in the room. It sounds to me like my IR543 may be defective. If I'm guessing right, when it "freezes", the IR543 keeps sending incomplete X10 power-line signals and that's why X10 no longer works from the other remotes.
Should I get another IR543 ? Or is there another more reliable X10 IR receiver ?
I really need IR functionality for the home theater. The main sequence I want to work right now when I get into the home theater is :
10) use X10 RF remote to turn on one of the lights in the home theater room. It has no windows and is completely dark
11) use X10 IR remote to turn on all the HT equipment that's powered down and hooked up to a few AM466 on the same code
12) use X10 IR remote to turn lights off
But right now I get the freeze at step 11 ... And I need to get up from the couch and walk 20ft to press the wall switch and defrost things. Which is extremely annoying.
I'm getting close to giving up on x10 altogether. Any help appreciated.
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That’s too bad about the Leviton 6287s. Some builders try to save a few cents on each box by only installing ones that just meets the code. For a few cents more they could install boxes that allow room for larger switches or things like the 6287.
The 6287 is a notch filter that does a good job at blocking noise directly in the X10 band. If the problem is from CFLs when they are on, they are most likely generating noise in that range. The fix is either to somehow prevent that noise from radiating out into the rest of your electrical system, or change to a different type of CFL that does not generate noise in that range.
If you still want to pursue the 6287 filters, there is another option. Most light fixtures include an electrical box for the connections. All the lights I installed here had more than enough room in that box for the small 6287 filter. The downside of this approach is the electrical box may no longer be easily accessible. If you do take this approach, be sure to place the filter in the run between the switch and the first light in the string that it controls.
Problems that appear random are due to your system being just marginally working. Either the signal levels are barely adequate or there is significant background noise. In this case where you have lights that turn on but not off, it is most likely the latter problem. Note that the noise from many sources is not fixed in frequency, and can vary with temperature, voltage, and age. So CFLs that do not cause a problem during the summer can begin to cause a problem in the winter if the noise they produce moves down into the X10 frequency band. There have also been reports of CFLs causing problems as they age. Some components drift slightly in value with time, and this too could cause the frequency to move into the X10 band.
I have never used an IR543, and am not familiar with its quirks. However, what you describe does sound like it gets stuck in a loop trying to relay commands to the powerline, but something is preventing it from completing that action. The long turn-off time before proper functionality returns is puzzling, but it might be due to some device having to cool down again first.
Perhaps someone else who is familiar with the IR543 can confirm, but it sounds like that unit may be seeing a collision from powerline noise, and it keeps attempting to send the command. I can see that from some high-end controllers when I am injecting noise onto the powerline for testing. For example, HomeVision will make maybe a dozen attempts before it gives up.
As a quick test to see if is indeed noise from the CFLs, you could try removing the CFLs, and replacing a couple with incandescent bulbs to see it that resolves the IR543 problem. If it does, then the choice is either to somehow block that noise or switch to a different CFL that does not radiate noise in the X10 frequency band.
Jeff
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Hi Jeff,
Thanks for your reply. As far as fixtures go, these are all recessed cans and accessing the wires is difficult. I didn't try uninstalling any of the cans. I don't know where the wires run and which fixture would be the first in the 3 strings.
I think you are right about temperature being a factor. It is cooler now than when I first got the XPSS installed a couple months ago. The circuit that is now having the problem has the 6 largest CFLs (15W R30 each). The problems are also mostly showing up when the bulbs are warming up. After they have fully warmed up, things seem to be operating OK. But usually they haven't fully warmed up before I need to send another x10 command. These are new bulbs from Costco, FEIT electric.
I tried to remove some CFLs. After 3 of the 6 were removed, the IR543 was no longer freezing during the bulb warm-up period.
I haven't seen anyone market "x10-troublefree CFLs". It is too hard to track down compatible bulbs, if they exist at all. Trial and error gets old very quickly, especially when there are lots of bulbs and different sizes involved.
I wish switches like the XPS3 had built-in filters to deal with these kind of issues, instead of requiring separate filters.
One of the key motivations for me using CFLs is lowering energy consumption and costs. If I have to spend hundreds of dollars in additional electrical and drywall work to use x10, it is not worth it.
Is there any other solution that doesn't use power-line control signals ? Maybe some switches that would be controlled wirelessly themselves ? These might not fit in my electrical box either if they exist though ...
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I understand your frustration using CFLs with X10. Many of us are dealing with this issue now as CFLs become more prevalent. If you think you have a problem with CFLs, 120V LEDs can be worse. I have a Lumoform 4W 120V LED bulb that is the worst noisemaker I have seen. It radiates a very strong signal almost exactly at 120KHz, and even caused problems on its circuit for the high-end Leviton switches with AGC.
Maybe something that could be done here on the X10 forum is keeping a log of “X10 friendly” CFLs and 120V LED bulbs.
The Phillips (correction) CFL “Earthlights” we bought over a decade ago never caused a problem for X10, but they were expensive. Several years ago we bought a batch of n:vision CFLs at HomeDepot, and they also worked fine with X10. I have several different brands of CFL “noisemakers” in my workshop that I use for testing. They were from a utility company promotion maybe 8 to 10 years ago.
There is one other thing you could try. If you can’t easily block the noise from your CFLs, an alternative is to attenuate the noise that reaches the powerline. I developed a tuned signal sucker that presents a very heavy load to signals outside the X10 band, and also attenuates in-band noise. If you can plug that into the CFL circuit, it may attenuate the noise enough so that X10 signals can be properly decoded. Contact me directly if you would like to try that.
Other than blocking the noise, I don’t have a solution for your IR543 problem. However you might consider using switches that incorporate AGC to raise their detection threshold above the background noise level. Other than the circuit with the LED bulb, our Leviton switches have worked flawlessly since I installed them 7 years ago. Also contact me directly if you would like to pursue this alternative.
Jeff
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Hi Jeff,
I understand your frustration using CFLs with X10. Many of us are dealing with this issue now as CFLs become more prevalent. If you think you have a problem with CFLs, 120V LEDs can be worse. I have a Lumoform 4W 120V LED bulb that is the worst noisemaker I have seen. It radiates a very strong signal almost exactly at 120KHz, and even caused problems on its circuit for the high-end Leviton switches with AGC.
Well, I'm sure glad I didn't buy any LEDs for my new house. They were not affordable. I just replaced all 220+ incandescent bulbs with CFLs.
Maybe something that could be done here on the X10 forum is keeping a log of “X10 friendly” CFLs and 120V LED bulbs.
That would be useful.
The Phillips (correction) CFL “Earthlights” we bought over a decade ago never caused a problem for X10, but they were expensive. Several years ago we bought a batch of n:vision CFLs at HomeDepot, and they also worked fine with X10. I have several different brands of CFL “noisemakers” in my workshop that I use for testing. They were from a utility company promotion maybe 8 to 10 years ago.
I have many nVision from Home Depot. Some from Ikea, some from Lowe's, some from Costco. Some bought online. I got all kinds of shapes of CFLs so I can't buy them all from the same source.
I have used x10 for about 10 years and had all CFLs in my previous home. But I never had anything x10 hardwired in the townhouse. I only used appliance modules to control the lights. And the same IR543 in my living room for several years.
I never had any issue with anything not coming on or off. I had never even heard of x10 noise filters until a few months ago. The townhouse was 1200 sq ft, the new place is 4700 sq ft.
There is one other thing you could try. If you can’t easily block the noise from your CFLs, an alternative is to attenuate the noise that reaches the powerline. I developed a tuned signal sucker that presents a very heavy load to signals outside the X10 band, and also attenuates in-band noise. If you can plug that into the CFL circuit, it may attenuate the noise enough so that X10 signals can be properly decoded. Contact me directly if you would like to try that.
Thanks for your generous offer. I'm afraid anything that needs to be hardwired on the CFL recessed light circuit is a non-starter unfortunately unless it's a replacement for the XPS3 switch and no bigger than that. Anything additional will involve hundreds of dollars in labor to either install an additional an electrical box, or drywall/paint work on the ceiling.
Other than blocking the noise, I don’t have a solution for your IR543 problem. However you might consider using switches that incorporate AGC to raise their detection threshold above the background noise level. Other than the circuit with the LED bulb, our Leviton switches have worked flawlessly since I installed them 7 years ago. Also contact me directly if you would like to pursue this alternative.
I did some google searches on the IR543 and found the following posts. They sound pretty similar to my problem :
http://www.remotecentral.com/cgi-bin/mboard/rc-x10/thread.cgi?2425
http://www.fixya.com/support/t173983-ir_543_lock_up
However they are not exactly the same since these users say the IR543 buttons do work, only IR functionality fails.
In my case, the IR543 buttons fail too.
My IR543 is located in my AV rack, near the top, just underneath my center speaker. Maybe it is electromagnetic interference. I have 3 AV racks with about 12 different pieces of equipment. They are the same equipment that I had at my townhouse before, though, where the IR543 never had a problem. But the IR543 might not have been directly underneath the center speaker. I'll try to move the IR543 somewhere else physically and see if it makes a difference. I only tried different outlets, with an extension cord. I have several outlets on different phases right next to each other.
I tried outlets on a different phase than the XPS3 switches. I have a Smarthome 4826 4-wire dryer type coupler-repeater which actually seems to work OK with all the other x10 equipment (RF transceivers; plug-in remotes). This despite that the dryer outlet is located at least 40ft (assuming direct line of sight) from the IR543 and there are probably over 200 feet of wires in between the two. That was a pleasant surprise about the plug-in coupler working accross floors.
The IR543 still exhibits the lockup problem even when hooked up to outlets on a different phase than the switch. Can the noise from those 6 CFLs really radiate accross phases ? Apparently so.
The Radioshack plug-in remote works on all outlets that I tried in the house so far, regardless of phase.
I also tried unplugging the smarthome coupler repeater from my laundry room upstairs, to see if it was the cause of the problem, but it was not.
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My IR543 is located in my AV rack, near the top, just underneath my center speaker. Maybe it is electromagnetic interference. I have 3 AV racks with about 12 different pieces of equipment. They are the same equipment that I had at my townhouse before, though, where the IR543 never had a problem. But the IR543 might not have been directly underneath the center speaker. I'll try to move the IR543 somewhere else physically and see if it makes a difference. I only tried different outlets, with an extension cord. I have several outlets on different phases right next to each other.
OK, I unplugged the IR543 and plugged it in other outlets around the room. Same issue when I press the buttons and turn on the first circuit. It locks up. It does that even in the back of the room, 24ft away from the front, without any electronics around. And even if there is absolutely nothing plugged to any of the outlets in the room. No HT equipment, no Airwick warmers, cordless phone charger, laptop charger, etc. A few of which were not behind XPPF plug-in filters. But they now are (I bought a bunch of XPPF on ebay ...) .
I also moved around the house with the IR543. When I go to other rooms, I can turn on that same home theater light circuit fine with the IR543 push buttons. And then the IR543 does not lock up.
The IR543 only fails when it's in the same room as those 6 ceiling CFLs and the XPS3 switch.
At this point, I made too many attemps and the CFLs are now warm. The problem is no longer reproducible anywhere and all test results become meaningless. I will have to wait another hour to try something else again. If I can think of anything :(
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The IR543 only fails when it's in the same room as those 6 ceiling CFLs and the XPS3 switch.
Therein may be your answer. Since the problem only exists with those 6 CFLs, the simplest fix is to try other brands to find one that does not generate noise in the X10 frequency band. Also, please report here the brand and model number of the offending devices so others can avoid that particular CFL.
FYI - that Tuned Signal Sucker is a simple plug-in module slightly smaller than a XPPF.
Jeff
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Jeff,
The IR543 only fails when it's in the same room as those 6 ceiling CFLs and the XPS3 switch.
Therein may be your answer. Since the problem only exists with those 6 CFLs, the simplest fix is to try other brands to find one that does not generate noise in the X10 frequency band. Also, please report here the brand and model number of the offending devices so others can avoid that particular CFL.
FYI - that Tuned Signal Sucker is a simple plug-in module slightly smaller than a XPPF.
Jeff
The CFLs are FEIT electric brand, "Conserv Energy", bought at Costco, in packs of 4. They are flood lights, R30 size, 15W consumption, rated as 65W equivalent. I have them all over the house in many recessed cans since they were so inexpensive after PG&E utility rebate.
Does anyone know what other R30 size CFL would work OK with x10 ?
These do work fine as long as there are only 3 of them. Just not 6. The whole house is built with tons of lighting, some lighting circuits have as many as 14 cans on one switch.
Where would I plug your signal sucker ? The lighting circuit with the CFL only has the recessed cans and the XPS3 switch. No outlet is in between the switch and the CFLs.
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I'm using a bunch of R30s here too. They were off-brand "Lightwiz" bought on clearance about 8 years ago. They have never caused any problems for X10, but they are all isolated by Leviton 6287s. Our noise level here runs only 10-20mVpp unless the Canon copier is on.
I do have one FEIT R30 65W replacement - BPESL15R30T. It was purchased several years ago. I just checked it with the XTBM, and it indicated no increase in noise level at all. So if it is radiating any noise, it must be way out of band.
There have been reports of some bulbs of the same type causing problems while others work fine with X10. The switching circuitry is not crystal controlled, and the frequency may vary significantly from lot to lot.
A side issue with Feit: A little over a year ago I converted our landscape lights from 20W halogens to Feit 5-watt 12V MR16 CFLs. I reported here at the time that I was happy with their performance from a color and intensity standpoint. They cost about 10X what a halogen cost, but I expected the energy savings would more that pay that back over their operating life. Using Feit’s numbers, they should have lasted about 9 years. About a quarter failed in the first several months, but Feit quickly replaced them. Now with a little more than a year on them, more have started to fail, and I certainly can't recommend them anymore. Apparently the expected operating life was wildly optimistic.
Unfortunately, for the TSS to be effective, it should be plugged into a receptacle on that circuit as close to the noisemakers as possible.
Jeff
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Thanks. One of my brand new 150 FEIT's in the house has burnt so far over the last few months. I haven't had them replace it yet. It was a pain since it was in a very high up can.
In my previous house I changed all the bulbs to CFLs around 2000, and less than 10 had failed. I had way less than 200 total, though. I wasn't picky about brands, and it was mixed.
I will try to buy some different CFLs at local stores and see if I can solve the problem. If it does, it would be the least expensive way. But even if I find them, 5-9 years from now I will have to hunt for special noise-free CFLs again ...
Are there any screw-in type noise filters by any chance ? That would really be useful ...
I'm using a bunch of R30s here too. They were off-brand "Lightwiz" bought on clearance about 8 years ago. They have never caused any problems for X10, but they are all isolated by Leviton 6287s. Our noise level here runs only 10-20mVpp unless the Canon copier is on.
I do have one FEIT R30 65W replacement - BPESL15R30T. It was purchased several years ago. I just checked it with the XTBM, and it indicated no increase in noise level at all. So if it is radiating any noise, it must be way out of band.
There have been reports of some bulbs of the same type causing problems while others work fine with X10. The switching circuitry is not crystal controlled, and the frequency may vary significantly from lot to lot.
A side issue with Feit: A little over a year ago I converted our landscape lights from 20W halogens to Feit 4-watt 12V MR16 CFLs. I reported here at the time that I was happy with their performance from a color and intensity standpoint. They cost about 10X what a halogen cost, but I expected the energy savings would more that pay that back over their operating life. Using Feit’s numbers, they should have lasted about 9 years. About a quarter failed in the first several months, but Feit quickly replaced them. Now with a little more than a year on them, more have started to fail, and I certainly can't recommend them anymore. Apparently the expected operating life was wildly optimistic.
Unfortunately, for the TSS to be effective, it should be plugged into a receptacle on that circuit as close to the noisemakers as possible.
Jeff
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Are there any screw-in type noise filters by any chance ? That would really be useful ...
None that I am aware of. Maybe that is something X10 would consider. It certainly has the potential to be a high-volume product.
Jeff
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I have seen different model CFL bulbs from the same manufacturer vary widely.
I actually had one where the bulb had a capacitor from Line to Neutral to kill noise. Unfortunately that also made it an X10 signal sucker. ::)
I also found one older model where they had the cap from line to neutral and a coil to the center button on the plug. No noise or signal sucking. ;D
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I tried another set of bulbs, from Home Depot. R30 CFLs 15W, 65W equivalent. 2700K. I purchased dimmable because I wanted something as different as possible from the FEIT which were non-dimmable, not because I needed dimming.
Anyway, things only work right with 2 out of the 6 bulbs installed, which is worse than with the FEIT from Costco (worked with three).
I tried to let them warm up a very long time (10 minutes), but there was no way to turn them off via X10 at all. Not by IR543, plug-in RadioShack remote, or by RF transceiver. The "Off" signal was just not getting through. The IR543 only froze on a couple of occasions, so in this regard it was better than the other bulbs.
However, the noise was apparently so bad that I could no longer switch off the other lights on the other couple XPS3 in the same wall box via X10. The signals weren't getting there either.
So, with these 6 new bulbs, basically x10 was completely broken for all the lights in the room.
x10 still worked in the back of the room to turn the AV equipment on/off via appliance modules ...
I have put the FEIT back in place.
These bulbs cost $35 in packs of 4. Quite expensive. I bought two packs. They were in cardboard packaging, easy to return. Unlike all the other Ecosmart which are plastic that need to be cut. These 2 packs are going back to Costco.
My Leviton 6827 filters went back to Amazon uninstalled also.
Any ideas that don't involve an electrician or drywall work are welcome. Besides buying every brand of R30 I can find until one works.
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The only idea I have is to pose a question for the group. Does anyone know what brands and models of R30 CFLs do not cause a problem for X10?
As I reported earlier, the one Feit R30 I have indicated no noise at all on the XTBM. It was purchased several years ago, but was never taken out of the package until now.
Unfortunately, the real solution is to place a filter between the switch and the fixtures.
Jeff
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The only idea I have is to pose a question for the group. Does anyone know what brands and models of R30 CFLs do not cause a problem for X10? [snip]
I am using seven Sylvania 16W CF16EL/BR30 bulbs in my outside soffit cans, switched by a single XPS3, controlled by a dusk-to-dawn timer on my CM15A (AHP) ... very few problems over about 14 months ... it's the only portion of my original X10 project that works, so I'm happy to talk about it! And based on this thread I'm not replacing them with anything else until I'm ready to give up on the XPS3! ;D
I have no filters in that circuit ... I don't have an XTBM (yeah, I know, I already got that advice in a different thread) so I can't comment on the actual noise levels ... but I have, for example, several WS467s that will turn lights (incandescent) on and then go deaf and not be able to turn them off remotely, so a few simple assumptions would lead one to assume that the CFLs must be making less noise than a single incandescent. <sits back and waits for others to chime in on why those are really bad assumptions>
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Incadescent bulbs are pure resistive and should make no power line noise.
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Hey Madbrain,
I recently performed an off-the-cuff study with my CFL's. Although they are the little 15 Watters, the same theory
may apply. I took what I thought was a bad CFL (based on XTBM findings) and moved it from a metal-based lamp
assembly to a goofy (the wife likes it) decorative lamp (with almost no metal). The noise level went to zero! It turns
out that some CFL's apparently 'react' to metal in close proximity. I thinking your cans here...
This might be hard to swallow, but you might get yourself an LED-based solution and test it out; yeah I know they're
expensive. And I also recall one of the guys talking about the LED bulbs that have have more LEDs in 'em as opposed
to the ones with just a few big ones.
just a thought...
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I had a MicroBrite 8 watt CCFL. That would radiate noise through the air not on the power lines. As indicated by my XTBM. So the electronics in a CFL could be effected by metal close to their base. In some cases.
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I also moved around the house with the IR543. When I go to other rooms, I can turn on that same home theater light circuit fine with the IR543 push buttons. And then the IR543 does not lock up.
The IR543 only fails when it's in the same room as those 6 ceiling CFLs and the XPS3 switch.
This is interesting. The IR543 locks up only when in the room with the CFLs and when it locks up, the IR receive LED remains on until unplugged(?). Could this be optical noise from the CFLs? In other words, once the IR circuit in the IR543 gets gated on , it stays on and locked up, from the CFLs ( yeah I know, CFLs should not be a IR source, but it is wierd that the IR543 LED remains on as if receiving a continous signal) A simple test would be to replace every CFL in th room with an incandescent and see what happens.
I have not studied the entire thread so may have missed something....I'll go back to sleep now.
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That could be a possibility.
I have seen things like plasma TVs interfering with IR communications.
Maybe you could see if the constant Red LED being On is the CFLs shining on the IR543. Is leave it connected with the stuck LED and cover it with maybe a box. If it unlocks. It could be the CFLs shining on the IR sensor of the IR543.
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I will try to cover the IR receiver on the IR543 and see if it still locks up when I operate it just by pressing the buttons, as it does now. My guess is that it will.
The cans are all metal indeed.
When the XPS3s and IR543 were first installed, and I had the incandescents in there, there was no issue.
I wonder if I could remove the cans, and put a filter above each can. That would get expensive with the 17 cans in that room, though. But XPFs can be had for relatively cheap.
Are these reliable long-term ?
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Incadescent bulbs are pure resistive and should make no power line noise.
Right ... so you can imagine my disappointment (and confusion) at my results ... ???
The outdoor fixtures in question have built-in light sensors so that the lights will not come on during the daytime ... could that have something to do with it?
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The electronics in the daylight sensor may cause a noise problem with CFLs if it uses a triac style component. If it has a relay control less likely to be a problem.
So the sensor maybe causing a problem.
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Makes sense ... I have no idea what the guts are ... they are builder-grade units and some are already faded from the sun ... I haven't tried CFLs in them because I understood that the WS467 wasn't compatible with CFLs ... I've been shopping around for replacement fixtures with motion sensors built in so that I wouldn't even need the X10 stuff, but I have yet to find a model that has the looks and functionality that I want for an affordable price (I have 14 of them around the house, so every $20 matters!).
But maybe I will yank one of the fixtures down and temporarily replace it with a basic fixture and see if that makes a difference in how well the WS467 performs ... as long as someone from the HOA doesn't wander by while I'm in the act :'
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I finally had the Leviton 6287 filters installed between the XPS3's and the load. Went through great expense to have an electrician install an extra box in the home theater.
Unfortunately, no change to the behavior. IR543 still hangs when trying to turn off the lights during the bulb warm-up period. Sigh.
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Are the CFLs in question. Physically shining on the IR543?
I have seen reports of some IR devices being confused IR emissions. Like from plasma TVs or maybe warming up CFLs.
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Brian,
I moved the IR543 inside my AV rack as opposed to on top of it. So the ceiling light from the CFLs doesn't shine directly on it. The issue is still the same. The IR543 freezes, and lights can no longer be turned off via remote. Most of the CFLs are FEIT brand.
There is no plasma TV in the room. Nothing else was producing any light except the CFLs. I just entered a completely dark room (no windows), pressed the XPS3 switch on the wall to turn on lights. Then went to the couch to turn them off via IR remote. Then IR543 froze.
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When the XPS3s and IR543 were first installed, and I had the incandescents in there, there was no issue.
With the 6287s you have pretty much eliminated CFL electrical noise. Not much left but optical noise from the CFLs. Either go back to incandescents. Go back to incandescents for the cans closest to the IR. Or try putting a "awning" or focusing tube over the IR pickup in the IR543.
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Brian,
I just noticed that when I put my hand in front of the IR543 when it was locked, it unlocked immediately. This was repeatable.
At this point, it looks like it is indeed some of the light from the CFLs still reaching into the front and confusing the IR543 ...
I pushed the IR543 further back into the rack so it will receive even less / no lights from the CFLs .. I will have to check again since the bulbs are now warm.
I have at least 12 IR components in the same location and none of them experience any problem from the CFLs receiving IR signals, from the same Sony RM-AV2500 universal remote that I am using to control the IR543.
I am inclined to say the IR543 is a piece of crap. Wish there was something else out there that didn't get this kind of interference .
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I looked at the X10 IR protocol.
It seems to be a fairly simple code and uses a 40KHz IR pulse.
I then looked at some of the CFL specifications I found online.
Seems some CFLs use a 45KHz frequency for their electronics. Some are lower like 35KHz.
Maybe when cold they are close to the 40KHz IR pulses used by the IR543.
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Madbrain, did you read my Apr 24 12:19:32 PM post?
Try a 1" piece of 1/2 PVC tube as a shield on the IR pickup of the IR543
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Dave,
Madbrain, did you read my Apr 24 12:19:32 PM post?
Try a 1" piece of 1/2 PVC tube as a shield on the IR pickup of the IR543
Yes, I read your post. I think any shield is likely to prevent the signal from the remote from getting through. I need a wide enough range as I use the remote from far away (20ft).
I don't think that's very practical.
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I looked at the X10 IR protocol.
It seems to be a fairly simple code and uses a 40KHz IR pulse.
I then looked at some of the CFL specifications I found online.
Seems some CFLs use a 45KHz frequency for their electronics. Some are lower like 35KHz.
Maybe when cold they are close to the 40KHz IR pulses used by the IR543.
Don't most IR remotes/devices use 40 kHz ?
None of the other A/V devices with IR receivers are affected. Only the IR543 .
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I think any shield is likely to prevent the signal from the remote from getting through. I need a wide enough range as I use the remote from far away (20ft).
I don't think that's very practical.
Yes, it would definitely make the input to the IR543 far more directional, which was the idea.
At least you have confirmed it is a optical problem between the IR543 and the CLFs. If you can't fix it at the 543 end that leaves the CFLs for resolution. Maybe a different brand?
Good Luck.
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X10s designs are not state of the art. So it just could be the design of the IR543s electronics.
I actually found a schematic of the IR543 in an old Circuit Cellar Magazine Article.
Since it was in the June/July 1989 magazine it maybe diffrent in newer units.
Not allot in the IR detection section.