X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: Fromjim on November 21, 2010, 02:34:32 PM
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Hi Everyone,
I have an EagleEye MS14A sensor in my driveway, my problem is the false signals I get make it useless.
The sensor is over a hundred feet from the road, the signals are not from anything I can see in the area, the sensor is positioned three feet above the ground on a 2"X2" stake, the signal is received by an RR501 transmitter, which seems to do a better job than the Mini Transceiver TM751. I have the transceiver set to Code A.
The MS14A is positioned facing North across my driveway , the nearest objects are some small spruce trees about 30 feet away which run parallel to the driveway on both sides, there is light snow on the ground and the temperature is -4C with a moderate wind from the NE.
I would like to monitor vehicles and people entering our property, I would appreciate any suggestions or alternative methods of achieving the desired results.
Jim
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hmmm.....
some questions:
- what is house code & number? A1?
- do you have a motion sensor also maybe on same code?
- any other modules in your house? what codes?
- what times are the fals alarms? same time each day? night?
- how often are the false alarms?
- sure sun is not doing this?
- sure no high weeds in range flapping in wind?
- sure it's not your neighbors cat(s)?
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Thanks for the reply,
what is house code & number? A1? Monitored house code "C"
Transceived house codes "A,B,C"
- do you have a motion sensor also maybe on same code? No
- any other modules in your house? what codes? B & C
- what times are the fals alarms? same time each day? night? all times it is on
- how often are the false alarms? Every few minutes
- sure sun is not doing this? sensor looking North
- sure no high weeds in range flapping in wind? Sensor is facing north across driveway, there are small spruce trees about 30 feet from the sensor
- sure it's not your neighbors cat(s)? Yes, I only have it on while I test it and watch for problems
Below is a short record of activity for the EagleEye sensor
Tomorrow I will move the sensor to different locations, if you have any suggestions let me know.
Thanks
Jim
859 11/21/2010 3:08:54 PM Receive A1 (Driveway East)
860 11/21/2010 3:08:54 PM Receive A On (Driveway East)
861 11/21/2010 3:08:56 PM Receive A1 (Driveway East)
862 11/21/2010 3:08:57 PM Receive A On (Driveway East)
863 11/21/2010 3:08:57 PM Receive A1 (Driveway East)
864 11/21/2010 3:08:58 PM Receive A On (Driveway East)
865 11/21/2010 3:09:43 PM Receive A1 (Driveway East)
866 11/21/2010 3:09:44 PM Receive A Off (Driveway East)
867 11/21/2010 3:12:55 PM Receive A1 (Driveway East)
868 11/21/2010 3:12:55 PM Receive A Off (Driveway East)
869 11/21/2010 3:19:46 PM Receive A1 (Driveway East)
870 11/21/2010 3:19:46 PM Receive A On (Driveway East)
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wow! bet its not false triggering; false triggering would be like 1x every hour! something is sure going on tho...
If it was me, I would get it off A1 code first! A1 is worst to use since it is default of everything when new....
Do you have any repeaters? devices that might be looping a command and retriggering itself?
Do you have a V572 you use? (one firmware version of it sent A! commands like this by mistake)....
there is a A1 off about 45 sec after the first A1 on - that mean anything to you?
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wow! bet its not false triggering; false triggering would be like 1x every hour! something is sure going on tho...
If it was me, I would get it off A1 code first! A1 is worst to use since it is default of everything when new....I called X-10 support and suggested trying this, they said maybe???
Do you have any repeaters? devices that might be looping a command and retriggering itself?
I have an XPCR System Coupler Repeater, $222.95 plus tax and shipping. also I have filters at the PC location and AV center, all X-10 within the home and garage work fine
Do you have a V572 you use? (one firmware version of it sent A! commands like this by mistake)....What is a V572?
there is a A1 off about 45 sec after the first A1 on - that mean anything to you?
No it dosen't, I have several motion sensors and transceivers not connected, I will do some testing tomorrow and post here
Thanks Jim
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Do you have any repeaters? devices that might be looping a command and retriggering itself?
I have an XPCR System Coupler Repeater, $222.95 plus tax and shipping. also I have filters at the PC location and AV center, all X-10 within the home and garage work fine
Hi Jim,
I would first and foremost change A1 to something unique.
I would definitely turn off the XPCR repeater and see if the repeats go away as an important test.
Let us know what you find!
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The log entries where from AHP?
I would also say try it without the XPCR, but I don't see any signal firestorms in your log.
The Eagle Eye has a timer in it so it should not send another signal for I believe 30 seconds and your log shows some less than 2 seconds apart.
This maybe from the XPCR if AHP is seeing the signal twice. Original and repeated.
The off signal around one minute later would be the no motion timer. Timing out and sending the off.
If you have not found the information in the wiki on motion sensors and how to best place them.
http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Motion_Sensors
I believe your main problem is the random triggering of the motion sensor. Look at the suggestions in the wiki. For placement of sensors and best detection range and sensing field.
Double check your batteries. Almost exhausted batteries have been reported to start motion sensors sending random messages and having the address revert to A1 the factory default.
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Does the Eagle Eye go nuts at night?
I have Eagle Eye in front yard that will trigger from changing patterns of sun light.
Also have old Active Eye one in bathroom that will send mutiple ON commands in less that 10 second interverals. I agree with Brian that my understanding is there is a "settling time" where a specific period of time must pass before the xxxEye will retrigger. Perhaps my old Active Eye came before that was incorporated.
I think you are getting repeats from the XPCR.
Is this a new Eagle?
If it does not do it at night, you might try a "sun visor" on the Eagle. Or try a different Eagle.
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...chiming in...
The fact the log indicates "Recieve" indicates it's a PLC from the RR501.
Perhaps the 501 is generating the junk. My advice: Unplug the 501,
get that MS14A inside a desk drawer near your CM15. Let's see if it falses.
If not, keep the MS14 in the drawer, plug the RR501 back in and watch
the log. If still nothing, open the drawer, trip the MS14 and close the drawer
back up. Maybe the 501 needs to hear just one signal before it starts
storming. Oh yeah, XPCR offline while testing. Try a different MS14 outside.
And yes, trees, bushes, and animals will cause it to trip. I had to move my
outside MS14s under the soffit; out of the view of neighboring trees. Now
nothing but humanoids and neighborhood cats trip 'em. Oh, sorry 'bout this,
but make sure you don't have any macros sending A1 RF out else the 501
will likely hear them and start all over again.
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EXCELLENT CATCH TROLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
Yes, we all missed it: if it was coming from the REAL eye it would have said "received RF" not "received!"
So that confirms it Jim, the A1's are NOT coming from the eye as you thought!!!!!!!!!
Now all u have to do is find what is sending them instead. In the meantime, make your system work by SIMPLY CHANGING THE DANG CODE FROM A1 TO SOMETHING ELSE.
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So that confirms it Jim, the A1's are NOT coming from the eye as you thought!!!!!!!!!
Now all u have to do is find what is sending them instead.
I think you are jumping the gun. Couldn't it be coming from the Eagle Eye through the RR501??
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ya could be. I got too excited! sorry!
but there are still the 2 basic problem solving things to try: change the A1 code & turn off repeater for test.
thanks for slowing me down!!
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Yes the RR501 could be putting the motion sensors RF commands on the power line and it shows up on the CM15A as a PLC signal and not an RF if it didn't receive it directly.
So YES it still can be coming from the motion sensor through the RR501.
Good thought on changing the address. If A1 still shows up it maybe from a different source. If it moves with the motion sensors address. Then more needed to be done with the motion sensor.
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I would get the Eagle off A1 as suggested by mike, OR switch the RR501 to "Unit 9".
I think troll nailed it but the initial description did not indicate a firestorm between the XPCR and the RR501 because the storm stops in this instance. Usually a XPCR/RR501 firestorm will go on for minutes.
The RR501 will send a status when told to change the state of it's outlet which is addressed as Unit Code 1 or 9. If yours is set as A1, the Eagle sends an "A1 ON", the RR501 turns it's outlet on and puts "A1 ON" on the line. The XPCR amplifies the "A1 ON" signal and couples to the other phase. If the RR501 sees this as a command to turn on again it will send another status of "A1 ON" and the ping pong starts.
1. I thought X10 fixed this a long time ago.
2. Usually the ping pong does not stop with out intervention (or at least mine usually did not stop itself).
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but there are still the 2 basic problem solving things to try: change the A1 code & turn off repeater for test.
Yes I think either action may stop the repeating commands. But the problem may be a firestorm between the RR501 and the XPCR, so your thought that the command is not coming [directly] from the Eagle may be correct.
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............... OR switch the RR501 to "Unit 9". ...........
HUH?
The RR501 will send a status when told to change the state of it's outlet which is addressed as Unit Code 1 or 9. If yours is set as A1, the Eagle sends an "A1 ON", the RR501 turns it's outlet on and puts "A1 ON" on the line.
I,m being dense, Never did know what the 1 or 9 sw on those things was for...... so are u saying that if set to 9 instead of 1 the above paragraph would read:
The RR501 will send a status when told to change the state of it's outlet which is addressed as Unit Code 1 or 9. If yours is set as A9, the Eagle sends an "A1 ON", the RR501 turns it's outlet on and puts "A9 ON" on the line?
why would it do that? I thought the rr501 was an rf rcvr and it just rcvd rf and put it on the line. period. so if set to work with housecode A, I thought ANY Axx rcvd would simply be put on the line by it. I only thought the 1 & 9 sw was to let it do double duty and be an appliance module on A1 or A9 in addition to rcving all Axx and putting it on the line as same Axx?
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The switch only selects the address of the internal appliance type relay.
If the RR501 is on House Code A. It will take any Unit Code command with a House Code A and send it back on the power line. If the RF command is on A9 and the switch is on 9. Then the internal relay will follow an on or off and it will also be passed back to the power line at the same address.
Like RF A9 On would turn on the internal relay and send an A9, AOn back on the power line.
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I thought the rr501 was an rf rcvr and it just rcvd rf and put it on the line. period. so if set to work with housecode A, I thought ANY Axx rcvd would simply be put on the line by it. I only thought the 1 & 9 sw was to let it do double duty and be an appliance module on A1 or A9 in addition to rcving all Axx and putting it on the line as same Axx?
I think Brian explained it. But what you state above is correct. Sorry if I confused you.
And I think I confused myself.
I have some very old RR501's from mid 80s and they would send a status any time they changed state (even when the manual button was pushed). So if set to HC "A" and slide switch to UC "1" ,when sent A1 ON it would turn on and echo "A1 ON" to indicate status. With the XPCR in the mix I could produce a ping pong firestorm between the XPCR and RR501. Never had the problem after upgrading to the CR234 repeater and later heard X10 fixed the problem. It may be the newer RR501 give status only when they see a "Hail" request.
Anyway I thought the "fromjim" problem might be a firestorm problem, not directly related to the Eagle.
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Well you guys are great, I have quite a few things to read and try.
Today I started by changing the EagleEye unit and I also changed the code to D-1, then I changed the 501 to code D and the Chime and Robodog to D-1.
The first thing I noticed was I no longer could get a singal from the EagleEye to the 501 at it's location, I had to change locations and move it about 50 feet closer. I then could get signals to the 501 and signal the chime and Robodog, which are, chime in the house and Robodog in the garage 150 feet away.
I still have the line bridge connected and that is probably why I get four chimes from each motion detected, the Robodog just keeps barking for about 30 seconds, don't know if I can change the time for that.
I haven't had any false alarms that I noticed, there was a few trucks but not as many today, but I think that problem is fixed.
I need the repeater/bridge on my elect. panel becausse of all the modules I have on different phases.
One new thing I noticed was when a vehicle leaves my home it is not picked up by the EagleEye, could be because the engine is not hot enough to trigger the EagleEye, because if I walk toward the sensor it is triggered, The temperature is about -5 degrees C today.
Thanks for the help
God bless you
I'll report again tomorrow
Jim
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I LOVE PR0OGRESS!!
......I also changed the code to D-1..........The first thing I noticed was I no longer could get a singal from the EagleEye to the 501 at it's location,.........I had to change locations and move it about 50 feet closer.
i can,t reconcile in my mind why this would be so...changing the code should have no effect on distance of course...maybe now without repeating it is showing how it was on the A1 also but you really couldn't tell due to all the repeating before....
I still have the line bridge connected and that is probably why I get four chimes from each motion detected, the Robodog just keeps barking for about 30 seconds, don't know if I can change the time for that.
maybe that is the way it is designed? seems like you would want 3-4 beeps to be sure you hear it? and I think I read in past on the bark dog thing it does go for like 30 sec per trigger?
.......One new thing I noticed was when a vehicle leaves my home it is not picked up by the EagleEye, could be because the engine is not hot enough to trigger the EagleEye, because if I walk toward the sensor it is triggered, The temperature is about -5 degrees C today.
I believe IR sensors work against ambient temp, so it shouldn't 5C or 25C i think. I have driveway sensors from another company since I need them to work 1/2mile away, and instrucs do state to install to see exhaust pipe as car goes by. I have noticed over the years that with these 4 sensors along the drive they do better seeing cars come in that go out probably due to this. You also said I think you mounted sensor on 2x2 2' high.... as you tweak it in you could try higher looking down - I like this better as i think it has better chance to see stuff since the IR sensor sees all heights then rather than just at 2' level.
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...chiming in...
The fact the log indicates "Recieve" indicates it's a PLC from the RR501.
Perhaps the 501 is generating the junk. My advice: Unplug the 501,
get that MS14A inside a desk drawer near your CM15. Let's see if it falses.
If not, keep the MS14 in the drawer, plug the RR501 back in and watch
the log. If still nothing, open the drawer, trip the MS14 and close the drawer
back up. Maybe the 501 needs to hear just one signal before it starts
storming. Oh yeah, XPCR offline while testing. Try a different MS14 outside.
And yes, trees, bushes, and animals will cause it to trip. I had to move my
outside MS14s under the soffit; out of the view of neighboring trees. Now
nothing but humanoids and neighborhood cats trip 'em. Oh, sorry 'bout this,
but make sure you don't have any macros sending A1 RF out else the 501
will likely hear them and start all over again.
I assume yours is out of the sun, that's the only real problem I have with mine the sun triggers them, so I have two outside just programed for night and they function flawlessly, with just a little tweaking from x10 these could really be phenomenal for detecting intruders!!! Thanks
Tom j.
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EXCELLENT CATCH TROLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
Yes, we all missed it: if it was coming from the REAL eye it would have said "received RF" not "received!"
So that confirms it Jim, the A1's are NOT coming from the eye as you thought!!!!!!!!!
Now all u have to do is find what is sending them instead. In the meantime, make your system work by SIMPLY CHANGING THE DANG CODE FROM A1 TO SOMETHING ELSE.
Are you sure?
Here is a printout of activity, and it seems to be working normally, although it missed a car entering just before this test. Why are some D1 and a couple D, is this just a repeat?
Your thoughts.
Jim
Event Date/Time Action Data
0 11/28/2010 11:22:55 AM Receive D1 (Driveway East)
1 11/28/2010 11:23:59 AM Receive D1 (Driveway East)
2 11/28/2010 11:24:06 AM Receive D1 (Driveway East)
3 11/28/2010 11:24:06 AM Receive D On (Driveway East)
4 11/28/2010 11:24:13 AM Receive D On (Driveway East)
5 11/28/2010 11:25:01 AM Receive D1 (Driveway East)
6 11/28/2010 11:25:02 AM Receive D Off (Driveway East)
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Here is a printout of activity, and it seems to be working normally, although it missed a car entering just before this test. Why are some D1 and a couple D, is this just a repeat?
Your thoughts.
Jim
Event Date/Time Action Data
0 11/28/2010 11:22:55 AM Receive D1 (Driveway East)
1 11/28/2010 11:23:59 AM Receive D1 (Driveway East)
2 11/28/2010 11:24:06 AM Receive D1 (Driveway East)
3 11/28/2010 11:24:06 AM Receive D On (Driveway East)
4 11/28/2010 11:24:13 AM Receive D On (Driveway East)
5 11/28/2010 11:25:01 AM Receive D1 (Driveway East)
6 11/28/2010 11:25:02 AM Receive D Off (Driveway East)
Lines 2 & 3 and lines 5 & 6 show the actual X10 protocol which is:
1. Send House Code followed by Unit Code.
2. Send House Code followed by command (ON, OFF, BRI, DIM).
This allows multiple X10 modules on the same house code to be "cued up" for a single command. Line 1 can be repeated changing only the the unit code. All modules addressed will then execute the next X10 command of the same house code. i.e five different "house code A" lamp modules can be addressed and dimmed with one DIM command, and they will all dim simultaneously. The old Maxi Controller allowed the user to do this manually.
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Lines 2 & 3 and lines 5 & 6 show the actual X10 protocol which is:
1. Send House Code followed by Unit Code.
2. Send House Code followed by command (ON, OFF, BRI, DIM).
This allows multiple X10 modules on the same house code to be "cued up" for a single command. Line 1 can be repeated changing only the the unit code. All modules addressed will then execute the next X10 command of the same house code. i.e five different "house code A" lamp modules can be addressed and dimmed with one DIM command, and they will all dim simultaneously. The old Maxi Controller allowed the user to do this manually.
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Where can I find information explaining the commands or receives in the activity list?
You seem to know quite a bit about them, can you help guide me to a good explaination.
My next step was to read all the help files provided with AHP, is this the way to go?
Thanks
Jim
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To reduce the sensitivity of the Eagle Eye sensor you can lower the gain of the op-amp (used as a comparator) that interfaces the sensor. The gain resistor is R4 on the PCB. It's stock value is 10M. You can play around with this value somewhere between 1M 1nd 10 M. Using a 1M resistor makes the sensor respond to only very significant changes in IR. I used 5M in mine and it reduced the false triggers significantly. Also if you change the low pass filter cap, C12, from a 1uF electrolytic to a 0.1uF ceramic or film cap, you can raise the required motion speed. Meaning it requires the change in IR to be quicker than stock in order to trigger. If you have any questions, email me.