X10 Community Forum
🛡Home Security => Home Security General => Topic started by: Brian H on March 13, 2011, 07:07:07 AM
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Trying to find out how Powerhorns work with the new SC1200A Security Console.
If you have Powerhorns and the SC1200A console. How are they working for you?
If you have the model of the Powerhorn {PH508 or SH10A} and the date code from the small round white sticker on the Powerhorn.
This data would be helpful in determining what does and does not work correctly.
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Hopefully this will send a message to x10 and they will see fit to correct this but I won't hold my breath because I don't want to die. :' >*<
Tom j.
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Powerhorn does not have any power at all!!!! At first, I thought it would be dangerous to trip it while being close to it. My God, was I wrong! The console is a lot louder than the Powerhorn. They should replace it with a really powerful one or at least add a couple of terminal posts to it so you can hookup your own TRUE powerhorn, siren, strobe light or whatever.
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Which Powerhorn?
The PH508 Large Powerhorn is quite loud.
The SH10A Small Powerhorn is not as loud.
If your Powerhorn is a PH508 and is not as loud as the console. It could be defective.
Though the screech of the console and the alternating Hi/Low tone from a PH508 could be perceived differently. It is still quite loud and I can't get too close to my PH508s when sounding.
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I have PSH01 and PH508 powerhorns -- neither is very loud; shrill but not loud. I was told that these two were the same, and that there was nothing louder available. Please advise.
I'm having numerous problems. Now that I"ve found this forum, I see that I am unfortunately in good company. The senior tech Thomas who consults by phone has told me that NO ONE else is having any of the problems that I am having. Obviously that is not true. Brian don't you two share information? Can it be that Thomas does not read the forum input? PLEASE help!
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JudyH; This is a user to user forum and almost all of us here are volunteers.
With a few X10 employees occasionally looking in.
So for the most part we have no contact with X10.
I doubt most X10 Technical Support Technicians would even read the forums.
Yes the PSH01 is the X10Pro version of the X10 PH508. Other than the case markings. They are the same.
I have opened both models and they are the same electronics. If both are about the same age.
Now older hardware design versus present hardware design. Old ones are measurably louder than the present hardware version.
I have again compaired an old date Code Hardware PH508 to a present Date Code Hardware PH508. Totally different internally.
Can you describe some of your problems. Many of the users here have better solutions than official X10 employees.
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If you have minimal soldering skills and welcome a challenge this is the only way to go for "sound".
http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=21998.msg124859#msg124859
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Thanks for helping to educate me, Brian. Obviously, I'm a new participant here. I just can't believe that the OFFICIAL, PAID senior tech doesn't look at these forum inputs. He really has told me that NO ONE else has reported the problems that I'm having, yet I find all of them covered in the forum comments. The problem I'm having with the horns is that I don't find them usefully loud, and ONE of the 6 does not sound with the new console. It worked just fine with the old one. But I have many other problems too, if I can report them here too: MAINLY I've got two sensors that after a few hours report problems. One will indicate that the related window is open, and it is NEVER open. For the past 5 days, I've turned off my external light-sensing light on the outside of that end of the house [roughly above this window, but not directly] and the window sensor has been fine. Mind you, I've got another window at that end that hasn't had any problems [yet!]. I seem to have the same issue at the other end of the house where I've got a window sensor and door sensor. The window sensor works fine, but the door sensor has the same intermittent "problem" reports as the first above. I've checked with the hardware store where I've bought these, and the two systems are definitely not operating at the same 310 MHZ frequency. Help?
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Well it sounds like you have read the threads and know that what you are seeing. Has been reported by others.
I don't have any suggestions at the moment, but know others will chime in with more help.
Are you using the new DS12A,MS18A and KR32A or the older MS10A,DS10A, KR10A modules with the SC1200?
I have a unofficial list of Powerhorns that are problems.
By chance do you have the Date Code on the small round white sticker on the silent unit?
Maybe better than the ones that sound everytime you arm the console. ???
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I've checked with the hardware store where I've bought these, and the two systems are definitely not operating at the same 310 MHZ frequency. Help?
$0.02
That is incorrect, but it doesn't matter.
The problems you describe, have been described by others, and other than the one horn that does not sound with the console, there is no magic wand fix. Perhaps this is just another "build error" or another firmware "tweek" that turns out to be an "oops". IMHO your only recourse is to send everything back for exchange.
Also you might elevate the complaint of insufficient volume of the powerhorns to a supervisor. X10 made design changes, probably trying to reduce manufacturing costs, and once again they have shot themselves in the foot.
As far as the one PowerHorn that does not work, plug it into same outlet as the SC1200, does it work then?
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Thanks again, Brian. I have several door/window sensors, and all are DS10A. I've asked Thomas, the 2nd level technician, several times about whether the newer model would perform better, given my specific issues, and he does not believe it would make any difference -- but cost $10 more per sensor.
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Hi Brian and Dave, thanks for your efforts to help. I gather you are indicating that I was given the wrong frequency by Thomas. Alas, that turns out not to matter. I tested by turning off the light-sensitive outdoor light for 5 nights. No problem, so I felt fairly sure I'd isolated the problem since the problem had been occurring daily [namely, various kinds of problem messages on the nearby window sensor. BUT THEN I turned the light back on, and for over a week there was no problem. And then after over 2 weeks of no failures, last night the problem light came on during the night [thankfully not triggering the alarm which was on]. I reset it by simply pressing the "set" button, and it has yet to fail again. This is simply random. It is nothing short of crazy making. Additionally, 3 days ago I replaced a door sensor for the 3rd time -- it had been failing daily, and now it has not failed YET again. I can only cross my fingers.
Is it correct to conclude if a sensor fails when the alarm is set that it SHOULD NOT trigger the alarm? It has concerned me with all the crazy intermittent failures that I could not safely set it when I'm not home [which of course is the primary I purchased this darned system FOUR months ago].
What is your view about the orientation of the console itself? I hadn't read anything until on the forum yesterday re that being any kind of issue. Mine is horizontal, and all 3 consoles that I've been thru in the 4 months have been. I don't have a viable way to hang it vertical and be near a phone outlet.
Thanks for your valuable help, Judy
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Hi Brian and Dave, thanks for your efforts to help. I gather you are indicating that I was given the wrong frequency by Thomas.
No, X10 security remote sensors all transmit on the same frequency...no exceptions. So if sensors do not transmit to the console, it is not because they are "on the wrong frequency" (if I understand you or Thomas correctly). Instead it could be the signal from the sensor is just not getting to the console reliably. Yes console orientation could have some effect. Try propping console up perpendicular just for a test. If things suddenly get better there might be solution other than nailing to wall.
When the outside light is on, what are you calling a "failure"? If the light is a CFL bulb, it can be making electrical noise which can disrupt the signals the console puts on the homes powerlines to control the PowerHorns and remote control of lights. CFL bulbs should not have any effect on the RF communications between the remote security sensors and the console. RF communications can be effected by the distance between sensor and console, the number of walls the signal has to transmit through, Although probably not impossible, I don't think the outside light could be directly effecting a security sensor.
Can a faulty sensor cause an alarm? Yes, but would likely be a failure of the window switch. Describe what you are calling a failure?
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Thanks for your input, Dave. Re the frequency, the issue was whether the alarm system was on the same frequency as something else in my home. That issue "seems" to have been ruled out.
Regarding changing the orientation of the console, nothing "suddenly" gets better when I make changes. The failures are always out of the blue, and apparently unreleated to anything. But that does raise one question that I sent out to the "community" yesterday [is that the only way to begin a new "thread"?] - I asked if forceful rapping on a window might in some way cause an signal issue from a window sensor, and at that not immediately but several hours later?
I'm lumping all the sensor issues into what I've termed "failure" -- basically it is whatever causes the zone light to come on on the console - sometimes it will tell me there is a "problem", sometimes it gives me an erroneous "low battery" message, and other times the light comes on and I can only gather that the sensor has failed to communicate with the console within the required time.
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Re the frequency, the issue was whether the alarm system was on the same frequency as something else in my home.
I asked if forceful rapping on a window might in some way cause an signal issue from a window sensor, and at that not immediately but several hours later?
I'm lumping all the sensor issues into what I've termed "failure" -- basically it is whatever causes the zone light to come on on the console - sometimes it will tell me there is a "problem", sometimes it gives me an erroneous "low battery" message, and other times the light comes on and I can only gather that the sensor has failed to communicate with the console within the required time.
1. The X10 frequency for the security remotes and the standard X10 wireless remote controls (Palm Pad, Slim Line Switch, keychain remote controls, motion sensors, etc) is 310MHZ. The security remotes send out a digital signal to identify themselves differently from the standard X10 RF controls. Garage door openers are another common user of the 310MHz group of frequencies. The 310-315MHz band is intended for very short range applications.
2. Forceful rapping could cause and "instant" alarm from the magnetic window switch being "bounced" open, however I don't see how it could cause a delayed alarm...my $0.02.
3. Some of these symptoms could be caused by "fringe" or weak RF signals from the sensors. But IMHO there are indications on the forum that X10 has also had build problems with the SC1200 consoles. If all your replacements came from the same date code or lot, you might be experiencing multiple bad units. In my not so humble opinion, X10 has a miserable ability to track, segregate, and control "bad builds". Bad builds happen, how well you capture and control is a different matter.
I dunno, I think some knowledgeable manager from X10 needs to step in and give aid. :'
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There is a difference between a low battery, open zone and problem zone.
The sensor checks in I believe every 60 minutes. It the console doesn't get a check in in four hours it reports a "Problem Zone"
If the sensor thinks the magnetic switch is open. It should report an open zone not a problem zone.
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I had to giggle at your conclusion. BELIEVE ME, I deduced that long ago, but Thomas isn't up to it. He told me that NO ONE had any of the problems I was having. Right now all's going well EXCEPT for the dial tone background noise when the chime sounds [and suggestion re that?] and my 6th siren probably still doesn't sound, but I don't like triggering my alarm since all those sirens certainly make a lot of noise [not as much as they NEED to] and I've got a dog who wouldn't be happy. Right now, I'm trying not to mess with my current "success" with having all the sensors doing what they should ... I'm not holding my breath. Finding this forum and others who indeed DO have the same problems has really helped bring my blood pressure down. THANKS, Judy
P.S. If I want to start a new thread on the forums, how can I do that? Who controls it? Doesn't X10 have an employee monitoring the site??
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This site is monitored by volunteers. If you want to start a new thread, find the appropriate section and hit the "start new topic" button.
If it's in the wrong place, the volunteers will move it. If it doesn't belong, or is spam, it will be removed.
We are in control. Do not attempt to adjust the picture. We are controlling transmission. If we wish to make it louder, we will bring up the volume. If we wish to make it softer, we will tune it to a whisper. We will control the horizontal. We will control the vertical. We can roll the image; make it flutter. We can change the focus to a soft blur or sharpen it to crystal clarity. For the next hour, sit quietly and we will control all that you see and hear. We repeat: there is nothing wrong with your television set. You are about to participate in a great adventure.
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We are in control. Do not attempt to adjust the picture. We are controlling transmission. If we wish to make it louder, we will bring up the volume. If we wish to make it softer, we will tune it to a whisper. We will control the horizontal. We will control the vertical. We can roll the image; make it flutter. We can change the focus to a soft blur or sharpen it to crystal clarity. For the next hour, sit quietly and we will control all that you see and hear. We repeat: there is nothing wrong with your television set. You are about to participate in a great adventure.
Cute. :)%
>!
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JudyH;
I cleared my dial tone noise by going into the test mode and then exiting.
Key in 7, then 9, then On, then Clear.
One note. Your PIN will be reset to 0000 so you would have to reset it to what yours was.
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I would really like to use two powerhorns with the 1200 but am confused as to whether they will not sound at all or just don't seem to be very loud. What model horn would/should work? Thank you!
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ratchet; You may want to look at this thread.
http://forums.x10.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=il2nuoj8lfnjndq69blci08c15&PHPSESSID=31uf92j09hpn1end6vhtf4e804&topic=22928.0
Basically it depends on the Date Code of the PH508 Large Powerhorn. I don't have any data, for possible updates in 2011. Last one I tested was a late 2010 unit.
I am using two 2002 models and they take longer than the normal four on off cycles to trip and do pause one time before continuing.
There where some 2008-2009 ones that sounded one time when the console was armed. ???
The late 2010 ones also pause one time but do not sound on an arming of the console though not as loud as the 2002 ones I have.
Actually none of them sound like a real siren. More like a High Low Cycle of tones. Though you do know they are sounding. ;D
I don't have any data on later Date Code SH10A Small Powerhorns.
Of the two the PH508 maybe a better choice. Though the is a modification here where a user triggers an ELK Sensitive relay to power a real siren. http://forums.x10.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=0u8r51309j5lu36k6jdm6e42f6&topic=21998.0
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Hi Brian -- I'm confused by your "7, 9, ON" solution to the dial tone noise. Other than potentially clearing the dial tone, what is this action MEANT to achieve? And, what do you mean by "test mode"? Thanks, Judy limping along with all the same problems still occurring
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The 7 9 On sequence puts the console in a self test mode.
I thought going into test and back out with the clear button. May get thing back in synchronization.
The only thing is it also clears the PIN back to 0000.
That was what Radio Shack told a user. That had a PIN that they forgot.
http://forums.x10.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=psitmfj48b2og9k4nbqb1q9fb6&topic=22912.0
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Hi Brian -- I'm confused by your "7, 9, ON" solution to the dial tone noise. Other than potentially clearing the dial tone, what is this action MEANT to achieve? And, what do you mean by "test mode"? Thanks, Judy limping along with all the same problems still occurring
Hey Judy "limping"! I've been hammering these threads with issues also and have read about yours. Relative to your "Trouble Zones" of which I've had my share. Most noticeably, every time I'd arm there'd be a troubled zone. Usually it would take opening and closing the door or window several times or at worst, having to re-enter the zone, before I could arm. I definitely feel like I had a breakthrough yesterday as things have been flawless since. I quote myself from another thread: "I may have cracked this (I shouldn't have said that)! I believe the most important thing is absolute perfect alignment of the arrows with these 12As. Lets assume the encased magnets aren't exactly all in the same location and your sensor alignment is off down or left a 32nd and the magnets off up or right a 32nd, you end up off a 16th. My zone 4, which is a window about 12' away and in the same room as the console, would keep flashing after every disarm. Then I'd have to open and close the window several times before it would re-arm! I've made a minor adjustment and so far so good!" The point being, that this (arrow alignment) may be of greater significance than the distance between the magnet and 12A sensor. Good luck!
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Thanks very much, Rachet. The tech at X10 had told me that exact alignment was no concern, but of course he has not proven to be a useful resource. Some of my sensors are not in complete alignment in the other plane, due to door and frame offset -- he told me that was no biggie either. I'll try what you have recommended. Any suggestions re the dial tone in the background on outgoing Alarm message? It makes the message pretty much undecipherable. Is there any way for us to communicate directly? Judy
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Thanks very much, Rachet. The tech at X10 had told me that exact alignment was no concern, but of course he has not proven to be a useful resource. Some of my sensors are not in complete alignment in the other plane, due to door and frame offset -- he told me that was no biggie either. I'll try what you have recommended. Any suggestions re the dial tone in the background on outgoing Alarm message? It makes the message pretty much undecipherable. Is there any way for us to communicate directly? Judy
Trust me, I'm the last person you want to consult about X10 issues. Indeed, the tech is correct, as zone four is at it again! I'm going to try some some different batteries. If I come up with any other zany theories I'll be sure to post.
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Yo Judy! Check out, post #93 as I have an update on sensor problems. Gist of which is trying a minor location change!
http://forums.x10.com/index.php?board=21.0
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I voted "Completely" for two PH 508, date code 10L.52 that I purchased on ebay. They are very shrill but loud enough in my opinion. I wore ear protection for the test and when I removed them I immediately disarmed the system while the powerhorn was alarming. Then I went upstairs and ran the test again with the other powerhorn. That one was in an on/off mode, which I assume was in sinc with the lamp modules. Is this correct or is the one I took upstairs not functioning correctly? I had a hernia repaired yesterday so I'm not in the mood for testing again. lol I can only assume the one down stairs was in the "on" sequence when I disabled the system because with the console alarming and the ear protection I didn't hear it until I removed them. I took a stop watch upstairs with me and the power horn began to alarm about 6.5 seconds after I tripped the zone.
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Did it sound one time when you armed the console for the test?
I have had them go off if I arm the system shortly after they where sounding from an alarm.
I think the circuit that triggers after the on off cycles have added up. Need time to totally discharge or they start sounding again.
Some of the 2007-2009 Date Code units sounded evertime the console was armed.
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Did it sound one time when you armed the console for the test?
I have had them go off if I arm the system shortly after they where sounding from an alarm.
I think the circuit that triggers after the on off cycles have added up. Need time to totally discharge or they start sounding again.
Some of the 2007-2009 Date Code units sounded evertime the console was armed.
I have no idea if they made a peep even when I armed as I had the ear protectors on. Relative to the on/off cycle, is that what they do during an alarm? Thank you!
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The Powerhorns trigger on a one second cycle of power line signals. Takes about 4 cycles to trigger them and they sound for about 4 seconds after the cycle stops.
All Lights On, All Units Off to the House Code they are set to or an On, Off cycle to its Address.
The problem is the new SC1200A and the Radio Shack 49-1000MC. That was made by X10 for them.
Sends the two Light Address. The old model console only send one address and uses All Lights On, All Units Off.
Like A1, A2, AOn. Then A1, A2, AOff. Some versions of the Powerhorns did not trigger because the second address being sent messed up the Powerhorns seeing the cycle correctly.
Some sounded sporadically and some just take extra time to start triggering.
I have two Date Code 2010 ones that trigger then stop then start again. My 2004s just take extra time to trigger. A 2009 sounds one blast everytime the SC1200 is armed and the lights flash to indicate a successful arm.
All my findings are for the PH508 Large Powerhorn. I have no real data on the SH10A Small Powerhorns and how they work with a SC1200A.
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If you want to trigger them as a test. You can do it without triggering an alarm.
On the SC1200As keyboard. Enter the address the Powerhorns are set to. Then repeatedly send an On then Off with the buttons. It should sound after maybe 4 cycles for as long as the On and Off cycle is being sent and stop in about 4 seconds after the signals stop.
Any lights on the address will also go On and Off.