X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: drakethib on September 14, 2011, 09:15:16 PM
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All of a sudden half of my house no longer works with X10. I have tried everything, nothing new has changed, my CM15A is a couple of years old, could it possibly be the culprit?
Things were working great, then boom, no more.
ANyone please help
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i have one that got detuned. Transmits at 132 instead of 120hz on the power line. XTBM tells me so.
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i have one that got detuned. Transmits at 132 instead of 120hz on the power line. XTBM tells me so.
That's interesting. Apparently, there are potential risks for things like this using the single chip receivers and transmitters. Still, most X-10 receivers have very wide bandwidth (75-200kHz).
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It could be possible the CM15A was detuned but I have gotten stuff sending at 122KHz directly from X10. 132KHz is a stretch for X10.
Knightrider. 132KHz is close to Insteon. You where not using a Insteon module with a X10 Primary Adddress added where you?
With half the house working.
It sounds more like a phase coupling issue. Do you have any type of phase coupler and if you do. Check it as it may have failed.
Also possible; even with no known changes in the house. Something has deteriorated or someone moved something and didn't think about it.
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It could be possible the CM15A was detuned but I have gotten stuff sending at 122KHz directly from X10. 132KHz is a stretch for X10.
Knightrider. 132KHz is close to Insteon. You where not using a Insteon module with a X10 Primary Adddress added where you?
No, it's my very 1st cm15. This was discussed a couple of years ago on the forum. The only thing in this house that registers a PLC transmission from the offending CM15, are my 2 other CM15's.
If you dig back far enough, someone posted that there's a way to tune these things back up, only now I forget if it's a coil adjustment, or if there's a slug to turn. I never got around to it. I just use that CM15 to send RF to another for PLC codes, via some of -Bill-'s custom software.
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There are three slug adjustment on coils in cans.
AC input pins at top when looking at the PCB.
One is the power line signal frequency. TC3 if you have the schematic. Upper right edge near transistor TR6.
One is the output coupling to the power line. TC1 Just left of the power transformer.
Near transistor TR2 2SD667A. X10's favorite line output transistor.
One is the receiver tuning. Didn't verify but only one not accounted for. TC4 Lower right edge.
http://davehouston.net/CM15A.pdf
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All of a sudden half of my house no longer works with X10.
Boomer, that is a perfect description of a phase coupling problem. If you have a repeater or a passive coupler I would investigate it first. If you have no phase coupling, you need some. However, if everything was working and now is not, then it could also be electrical noise. I would come nearer thinking noise than the CM15A suddenly "getting weak".
"Nothing new" isn't conclusive. Moving a noise maker from one outlet to another can do it. An aging CFL bulb can do it, etc.
http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm
It could be a bad CM15A but IMHO that is the last thing I would suspect unless you have had a recent power surge, electrical storm, and the problem appeared immediately afterwards...and even then "half the house" does not fit a typical failure mode.
PS not it isn't a dumb question.
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Ignore my initial post to the thread - it was past my bedtime and I thought RF rather than PLC. This was not a dumb question but I can't say the same for my response.
The tuning of the CM15A is the absolute last thing I would suspect. In the schematic referenced above, TR5 and TC3 and the associated caps form a free running oscillator. X-10 has used this circuit (and transformer) for 35 years in all of their PLC interfaces. I've been somewhat amazed at its accuracy whenever I've checked the frequency with my 'scope. It's possible but improbable that this has somehow been detuned unless the temperature change when you switched off the AC affected it. -:)
As others have suggested, this sounds like a path that existed between the two phases of your electrical system has opened.
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From the description of half the house not working, I am guessing that the other half still does work. I am also guessing that your CM15A is on a circuit in the working half of the house. If you move the CM15A to the "non-working" side of the house, do those modules work (and the other ones not)?
As others have suggested, it sounds like it is either be a problem with your phase coupler/signal bridge/phase-to-phase signal path, or it could be a change in noise or signal-sucker levels on one phase.
If you don't have any sort of coupler, then your signals have to go out to the pole transformer, and then come back on the other phase. That can seriously degrade the signal level to the point where other noise (or signal suckers) can interfere with signal reception. Noise from other homes on the same pole transformer can also cause problems.
You may have to go through and to a "breaker box test," where you turn off one circuit at a time, and see if anything changes.
Noise can come from unexpected places. Many people here have heard my story - my problem was caused by my neighbor's failing CFL bulb. the noise level was high enough to travel from his house across the street to mine, and still was loud enough at that point to disrupt some of my devices. I had a similar problem about a year earlier with one of my own CFL bulbs, too. In both cases, they were buzzing loud enough to be heard from a few feet away. That might be another place to look for a cause.
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Just a couple of things.
I have one of two 220 plugs that is a passive coupler (?) and have changed it out to no avail.
some of he macros in AHP work, some do not, Some of the same swicthes that have macro, I can turn them on and off with AHP but not on a timer. There is one switch that I cannot tunr on but I can turn off with AHP.
I tried another software and it turned the item on that AHP could not but then it stopped working.
I have tried filters, back track, and I have one last thing to try, a Dish Network reciver, but it is in a room that works fine.
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Are the modules old enough to be before Soft Start. Where they ramp on and off?
Did you update to the latest AHP 3.316?
If you did. You may have to redefine older modules with out soft start. From the old (before soft start) list.
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Are the modules old enough to be before Soft Start. Where they ramp on and off?
Did you update to the latest AHP 3.316?
If you did. You may have to redefine older modules with out soft start. From the old (before soft start) list.
How do I do that
These switched have been in my house well over a year or two, how do I redefine with soft start , yes i did upgrade
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http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/SoftStart
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One last note to ll and I appreciate everyone help.
I plugged a mini timer into the same outlet that the cm15a is plugged in, the mini timer is able to turn the lights on and off while the cm15a is not able to turn them on.
makes no freaking sense
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makes no freaking sense
Could your House code setting have been reset? Is the CM15A still reacting, by hearing and/or sending to the now non-working modules?
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makes no freaking sense
Could your House code setting have been reset? Is the CM15A still reacting, by hearing and/or sending to the now non-working modules?
Dave,
Whats weird is that the CM15a will turn the swicthes off, but not on. Is the off signal stronger?
I thought maybe it was the phase, by the mini timer proved that worng, I have deleted the software and installed an older verision. (3.310).
I wish there was another x10 software to try, this all started all of a sudden. The pribekm with the mini timer is it only allows for one /on/off per house code per day
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To determine if they are SoftStart, try this test with your lamps:
Use the Mini controller to turn them on, and watch the lights.
If they come on instantly at full brightness, they are NON-SoftStart.
If they take about 2 seconds, and dim up slowly, they ARE Soft Start.
The non-SoftStart modules can't understand or respond to the Extended Dim commands. Since version 3.302 (January 2011), the "Lamps" category in AHP is for the newer, SoftStart modules, and the :Old Lamps - No SoftStart" category is for the older, non-SoftStart ones.
If your lamps are not SoftStart, you need to edit the module, change the category to the "old lamps" one, and then re-select the correct module type.
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The mini timer send plain old X10 On and Off commands.
If the CM15A and AHP think a module is Soft Start it maybe sending Extended X10 commands the old style switches do not respond to.
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I plugged a mini timer into the same outlet that the cm15a is plugged in, the mini timer is able to turn the lights on and off while the cm15a is not able to turn them on.
makes no freaking sense
It might IF you upgraded AHP but have not yet re-defined all you light controllers as "SoftStart" or Old Lamp.
The good news is, if the mini timer can control everything from same outlet as CM15A, then it probably isn't noise.
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Holy cow I may have figured it out, the soft start/ non-soft start is kind of bass ackawards the way it is set in my x-10.
Will now soon.
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All mine are older soft start modules.
Older SoftStart modules?
OK so all your lights "ramp up" and "ramp down" when you tap the local switch and you can dim from the local switch, right? If so, all your Lamp Modules needs to be identified (under "Modules" on left side of screen) "Lamp" not "Older Lamps (No SoftStart)" .
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Spoke to soon.
Now all lights will turn on using AHP but will not work with Macros.
Dang it.
This is eating my lunch.
Dave advise heard, tried, and no luck.
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Spoke to soon.
Now all lights will turn on using AHP but will not work with Macros.
Dang it.
This is eating my lunch.
Dave advise heard, tried, and no luck.
/quote]
You might have to rebuild your macros, and did you upload to the CM15A?
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Spoke to soon.
Now all lights will turn on using AHP but will not work with Macros.
Dang it.
This is eating my lunch.
Dave advise heard, tried, and no luck.
Dan. Yes Sir. Rebuilt some of the macros, wondering if I should just wipe them all and start over
/quote]
You might have to rebuild your macros, and did you upload to the CM15A?
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Spoke to soon.
Now all lights will turn on using AHP but will not work with Macros.
There is an option in the AHP settings (in the macro section, I think) to issue "on" in place of "Bright 100%".
You might want to try that.
What is the Activity Monitor showing when you are running the macros?
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Spoke to soon.
Now all lights will turn on using AHP but will not work with Macros.
There is an option in the AHP settings (in the macro section, I think) to issue "on" in place of "Bright 100%".
You might want to try that.
What is the Activity Monitor showing when you are running the macros?
Not sure what you mean by activity moniotr, I do not when the macor executes, AHP shows the lights on, but they are not on.
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You may want to look at Tools; Preferences; Macro Options and see if the On in place of Bright 100% is checked off. As Noam mentioned.
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Not sure what you mean by activity moniotr,
Gee whiz, Under "Tools"/ "Activity Monitor" or Press the "F2" key....Surprise!!
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Not sure what you mean by activity moniotr,
Gee whiz, Under "Tools"/ "Activity Monitor" or Press the "F2" key....Surprise!!
Sorry Guys, I am not the guru that you are. Just trying to figure this out.
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FYI, all is working according to AHP.
I see nothing showing an error in the log
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Is there a means that I could set a trigger to one of the switches that do work which would piggy back and make the other switch work?
I.e. Send a code to a RF Switch which then turns on the wall switch?
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Is there a means that I could set a trigger to one of the switches that do work which would piggy back and make the other switch work?
Silly question follows:
You are not expecting a macro to run when you use the wall switch locally are you? None of the X10 wall switch modules transmit a status so AHP never knows their state when changed at the switch itself.
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FYI, all is working according to AHP.
I see nothing showing an error in the log
The Activity Monitor doesn't display errors. It shows you all of the commands that the CM15A sends or receives.
If you don't see anything in the Activity Monitor, then your CM15A is neither sending or receiving any commands.
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Not sure what you mean by activity moniotr,
Gee whiz, Under "Tools"/ "Activity Monitor" or Press the "F2" key....Surprise!!
Sorry Guys, I am not the guru that you are. Just trying to figure this out.
Ah thats ok. The Activity Monitor is explained in the AHP instructions and the WiKi, but X10 instructions has serious inverse air pressure so I can see why they are seldom read.
Anywho, so if the macro is triggered normally, you say the module shows on the screen as changing state correctly, so AHP is running the macro correctly. Then does the activity monitor shows the command being sent, or not?
And as Brian and Noam suggested: " look at Tools; Preferences; Macro Options and see if the On in place of Bright 100% is checked.
This may have did it, not wanting to say yes for fear of it quit working. Test are proving good right now.
Thanks so much guys.
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Is there a means that I could set a trigger to one of the switches that do work which would piggy back and make the other switch work?
Silly question follows:
You are not expecting a macro to run when you use the wall switch locally are you? None of the X10 wall switch modules transmit a status so AHP never knows their state when changed at the switch itself.
For the W647 swicthes, that is the only way to make them come in per x10 support
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None of the X10 wall switch modules transmit a status so AHP never knows their state when changed at the switch itself.
For the W647 swicthes, that is the only way to make them come in per x10 support
I don't understand what you are saying.
Are you saying X10 Customer Support said that: If you turn on a light AT THE WALL SWITCH that AHP will show the change and can trigger a macro??
If so, there is either a disconnect at their end , or your end, but the WS467 and all other X10 wall switches CAN NOT TRANSMIT THEIR STATUS. They can not notify AHP/CM15A that some has turned them on or off locally.
If you need a wall switch to transmit its status when controlled locally, you will need to use the more expensive Smarthome.com brand of switches.
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None of the X10 wall switch modules transmit a status so AHP never knows their state when changed at the switch itself.
For the W647 swicthes, that is the only way to make them come in per x10 support
I don't understand what you are saying.
Are you saying X10 Customer Support said that: If you turn on a light AT THE WALL SWITCH that AHP will show the change and can trigger a macro??
If so, there is either a disconnect at their end , or your end, but the WS467 and all other X10 wall switches CAN NOT TRANSMIT THEIR STATUS. They can not notify AHP/CM15A that some has turned them on or off locally.
If you need a wall switch to transmit its status when controlled locally, you will need to use the more expensive Smarthome.com brand of switches.
Agreed. X10 stopped making the two-way LM14A a while ago.
I have a number of SmartHome Insteon switches, which are backward-compatible with X10. Those *DO* transmit their status when you turn them on or off at the switch (which is nice, because I have two set to the same address - they both turn on and off at the same time when you use either switch).
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The only thing slightly different with the Insteon and Icon model Switchlinc Dimmers. Is if you dim them they send a %dim status that AHP ignores.
Though full On or Off sends an X10 On or Off status change.
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None of the X10 wall switch modules transmit a status so AHP never knows their state when changed at the switch itself.
For the W647 swicthes, that is the only way to make them come in per x10 support
I don't understand what you are saying.
Are you saying X10 Customer Support said that: If you turn on a light AT THE WALL SWITCH that AHP will show the change and can trigger a macro??
If so, there is either a disconnect at their end , or your end, but the WS467 and all other X10 wall switches CAN NOT TRANSMIT THEIR STATUS. They can not notify AHP/CM15A that some has turned them on or off locally.
If you need a wall switch to transmit its status when controlled locally, you will need to use the more expensive Smarthome.com brand of switches.
No, X10 told me the only way to turn on the w647 switched using AHP was with a macro, otherwise they would not work. No concern about the status of the lighting via AHP.
Just to finish the topic off, I have everything working now.
I went in and And as Brian and Noam suggested: " look at Tools; Preferences; Macro Options and see if the On in place of Bright 100% is checked. I changed to the ON and everythign si working now. I just have to stage the lights to come one ( i.e. have to set AHP in minute increments to get the lights on)
Whatever.
I am just happy that my system is working again. I was looking at having to shell out so big $$$ to have a high end system installed to do the same job that X10 was doing.
Really appreciate the help all. :)
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If you need a wall switch to transmit its status when controlled locally, you will need to use the more expensive Smarthome.com brand of switches.
Some Leviton X10 compatible switches also transmit their status when controlled locally, but they are pretty expensive.
Jeff
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No, X10 told me the only way to turn on the w647 switched using AHP was with a macro, otherwise they would not work. No concern about the status of the lighting via AHP.
The only possible reason I could think of for them saying that to you was if the person you spoke to didn't know about the "Old Lamps - No SoftStart" category.
It is possible to use a macro to send the discrete commands, but that's a silly way to do it.