X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: nabril15 on August 06, 2012, 09:11:13 PM
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I know quite a few posts exist with all of our own individual x10 issues, I have read some of them, and I'm sorry to ask regardless.
I have an MT13a controlling other X10 modules (xps3's, socket rockets, and 1 wireless transceiver lamp module)---small but simple. I also use a CR12A remote to manually control things if necessary.
Today, neither device seems to want to control any of the modules. We had a small power outage this morning, but I dont think I can blame it. I have no Xbox power supplies or other game power supplies. We have 4 cordless phone bases plugged in, and 2 USB chargers for our phones.
I moved the MT13a to other outlets, and the transceiver as well, but I get no response from my switches (regardless of type--xps3 or socket rocket). Throughout this frustrating testing, both the MT13 and the remote did power a switch here and there, so I know they are not faulty.
Do I need to go breaker by breaker to determine who my noise/interference maker is? Any suggestions or thought?
Thanks
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Do you have an active coupler repeater?
If so you may want to power cycle both lines into it. On the chance the original power interuption locked it up.
Breaker by breaker would isolate a circuit if the power interuption messed someting up. Then checking individual items on that circuit.
You don't have an x10 test meter do you? Like an XTBM, ELK ESM-1 or Smarthome TesterLinc.
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FWIW two weeks ago we had a power outage. Lights went out during a thunder storm and came back on an hour later. I wasn't home when the lights went out but reestablishment of power was a clean power-up. No flickers, or "brown-up". However my TM751 transceiver was dead on power-up. Everything else in the house was fine. The TM751 was fairly new and I, in a cynical mood, assumed X10 probably saved a nickel by taking out a zener diode regulator, or a resistor, or a screw ;) , etc causing an overvoltage condition in the TM751. It went in the trash without even opening it up to look for a smoked component.
Anywho, my point is: the power outage was not a catastrophic event, so IMHO there was no good reason for the TM751 to fail. Maybe your transceiver was from the same batch.
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brian and dave...thank you as always for doing this.
No, I do not have an active coupler repeater. Or perhaps I do, and dont know it. This is a house built in 1980, and I doubt if the previous owners added anything fancy. What does it look like? and where would it be if I had one? On the breaker panel? Plugged in somewhere?
I read up a little on the XTBM, and it sounds like a good place to start. With the x10 factory issues lately, I doubt if I will be able to get one. Any suggestions on where to buy it? I see the ESM-1 and testerlinc are discontinued.
The 751 transceiver has a on/off button in a corner, and it works fine, but I realize that has nothing to do with it's wireless receiving capability and components. I will open it up to see if something is fried.
For now, I continue to manually power on/off xps3's. Damn. I have one outside light directly wired and using a socket rocket. I had to unscrew it this morning to turn it off.
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The 751 transceiver has a on/off button in a corner, and it works fine,
Then I think that is a good sign! My button did not work. The unit was completely dead.
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If the TM751 has a relay (there have been posts indicating some recent ones have no relay), you can test whether it receives RF by plugging a lamp into the TM751 outlet. It's operated directly by the RF signal. The button also operates the relay so you probably have one since the button works.
If there is an FCC ID on the label, it has a superregenerative RF receiver - I cannot recall reports of failures. If it has a "Tested to comply with FCC regulations..." statement instead of an FCC ID, it has a superhet receiver and I believe there have been failures reported (same receiver is used in CM15A).
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If the TM751 has a relay (there have been posts indicating some recent ones have no relay), you can test whether it receives RF by plugging a lamp into the TM751 outlet. It's operated directly by the RF signal.
thank you dhouston.
Yes, that is how I have turned on lamp #1 all along---it is plugged in directly to the 751. As of yesterday, it doesnt turn on or off whether I use the remote controller or the mt13a.
It's as if my house, and only my house, got hit by a solar flare....
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I was modifying my post as you responded. Does the label have an FCC ID?
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i will check tonight.
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Since neither the MT13A (PLC only) and TM751 (no PLC input) operate the things they did, I suspect the TM751 is OK.
Most likely is that one of the power supplies you mentioned, started spewing noise after the power failure. The only way to isolate it is by unplugging one by one and testing after each step.
Also, look for a remote stuck under a couch cushion with a button stuck on. That can block other RF signals as well as flood the powerline.
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I read up a little on the XTBM, and it sounds like a good place to start. With the x10 factory issues lately, I doubt if I will be able to get one. Any suggestions on where to buy it? I see the ESM-1 and testerlinc are discontinued.
You're in luck!
Thankfully, the XTBM in not made by X10, but by our very own Jeff Volp. You can find the ordering information on his website: http://www.jvde.us .
It wasn't clear (or I missed it), but can you control the outlet on the TM751 itself from the remote? If not, then perhaps the RF receiver is fried.
another thing to try, for testing, is to rotate the code wheels of both the TM751 and the remote all the way around. Sometimes the contacts get dirty, and they don't work as well.
You might also try another housecode, just for kicks.
If the remote CAN reliably control the TM751, and it sounded like you could intermittently control things, then I'd look for noise, as well.
One thing people sometimes overlook (it happened twice to me), is CFL bulbs. They can work fine for years, and then suddenly start failing. They still light up just fine, but they start to throw out a ton of noise, and can take down the rest of your X10 system (in one case, my NEIGHBOR'S failing CFL bulb took down my entire system!).
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thank you Noam.
My house is full of CFL's.
I cannot control the 751 from the remote, so perhaps the RF receiver died. I will rotate the wheels so as to try another code.
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I cannot control the 751 from the remote
If you can't control the TM751 outlet with a remote within a couple feet of the antenna, then yes there is a problem either with TM or remote.
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I cannot control the 751 from the remote
If you can't control the TM751 outlet with a rmote within a couple feet of the antenna, then yes there is a problem either with TM or remote.
It could be an RF "signal storm," if you have another remote with a stuck button or something.
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I cannot control the 751 from the remote
If you can't control the TM751 outlet with a rmote within a couple feet of the antenna, then yes there is a problem either with TM or remote.
It could be an RF "signal storm," if you have another remote with a stuck button or something.
Close proximity of the "testing" remote to the TM751 should overwhelm any outside signal. (he says confidently).
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good morning all
I know you have all moved on from my issues, but I come to you with closure. I did nothing whatsoever, but the remote works fine, MT13a worked fine, all works fine. I got home with my troubleshooting hat and ideas from you all, but everything worked fine. I have a flickering socket rocket that I had to unscrew, but everything else is behaving properly.
Whichever of you did it remotely.....THANK YOU
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good morning all
I know you have all moved on from my issues, but I come to you with closure. I did nothing whatsoever, but the remote works fine, MT13a worked fine, all works fine. I got home with my troubleshooting hat and ideas from you all, but everything worked fine. I have a flickering socket rocket that I had to unscrew, but everything else is behaving properly.
Whichever of you did it remotely.....THANK YOU
Actually YOU did it, and I'll tell you the secret of how:
You THREATENED to find and fix the problem. That's it. Tech devices have become really smart over the years, and they sometimes decide to "misbehave," just to watch your reaction (perhaps it is an attention-getting tactic).
Once they found out that you were planning on finding and fixing the problem, it was no longer fun for them. So, they gave up.
That's my theory, at least. ;D
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If you screw the flaky Socket Rocket back in. Does the problem come back?
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What type bulb in the flickering socket rocket?
A bad CFL could explain blocking the MT13 which sends only to the powerline and it would also block powerline commands sent from the TM751 (TM751 does not receive from the powerline) but does not explain blocking the relay in the TM751 which is operated by RF only.
How close physically are the flickering socket rocket and TM751? Does it have an FCC ID?
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good morning all
I know you have all moved on from my issues, but I come to you with closure. I did nothing whatsoever, but the remote works fine, MT13a worked fine, all works fine. I got home with my troubleshooting hat and ideas from you all, but everything worked fine. I have a flickering socket rocket that I had to unscrew, but everything else is behaving properly.
Whichever of you did it remotely.....THANK YOU
Actually YOU did it, and I'll tell you the secret of how:
You THREATENED to find and fix the problem. That's it. Tech devices have become really smart over the years, and they sometimes decide to "misbehave," just to watch your reaction (perhaps it is an attention-getting tactic).
Once they found out that you were planning on finding and fixing the problem, it was no longer fun for them. So, they gave up.
That's my theory, at least. ;D
Is it possible that a "noisy" CFL was off when you came home, that would have been on during your initial testing (like an outside light at night, or even an inside one)?
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the flickering bulb in the socket rocket is a yellow buglight CFL from nvision (i believe). It has flickered since installation, and more than likely the culprit for my "solar flare". It is outside but about 6 feet from the outlet where the 751 is. I will check to see if it has an FCC id tonight.
even though this seems to have fixed itself (probably by unscrewing that flickering buglight), I truly appreciate your help.
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You probably will not find an FCC ID number on the TM751.
It does not have a transmitter in it so an ID may not have been issued. My Date Code 10E19 TM751 only says on it "Tested to Comply with FCC Standards"
Though many here use Socket Rockets with loads that are not incandescent as it is made for. Sometimes the Socket Rockets electronics and the loads electronics don't play nice with each other. I have a CFL that generated all kinds of power line noise but was quiet when powered directly in a table lamp.
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You probably will not find an FCC ID number on the TM751.
It does not have a transmitter in it so an ID may not have been issued. My Date Code 10E19 TM751 only says on it "Tested to Comply with FCC Standards"
Though many here use Socket Rockets with loads that are not incandescent as it is made for. Sometimes the Socket Rockets electronics and the loads electronics don't play nice with each other. I have a CFL that generated all kinds of power line noise but was quiet when powered directly in a table lamp.
I had one of those CFL bug bulbs (I think it was whatever brand Home Depot carried before the nVision ones which look exactly the same), which did go bad on me after a short while. It lit up just fine, but there was an audible "buzzing" noise coming from it, and it put out enough noise to disrupt my entire X10 system.
I had a similar experience with a different brand of "normal" CFL, which was making noise and disrupting my system. The catch that time was that the bulb was on my neighbor's front porch (across the street). The noise level was incredibly high, and the distance from his house to mine didn't attenuate it enough. I bought him a pair of new bug bulbs.
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You probably will not find an FCC ID number on the TM751.
It does not have a transmitter in it so an ID may not have been issued. My Date Code 10E19 TM751 only says on it "Tested to Comply with FCC Standards"
Those with super-regenerative receivers required an FCC ID. Newer ones, with the same super-heterodyne receiver as the CM15A, have the "Tested to comply..." label.
If the CFL is generating RF EMI, 6 feet may be close enough for it to jostle a super-regenerative receiver into oscillation - I've seen some that needed 8 feet or more separation even from other SR receivers. I would not expect a superhet to be bothered.
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even though this seems to have fixed itself (probably by unscrewing that flickering buglight), I truly appreciate your help.
I'm merely trying to add to the knowledge base. The buglight probably caused the problems with X10 signals on the powerline (sent by the MT13 or TM751 to other modules) but that does not explain why your remote would not operate the relay in the TM751 which is RF only. The label on the TM751 indicates the type of RF receiver inside - one is very sensitive to RF interference - one is fairly insensitive to same.
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good morning all
I know you have all moved on from my issues, but I come to you with closure. I did nothing whatsoever, but the remote works fine, MT13a worked fine, all works fine. I got home with my troubleshooting hat and ideas from you all, but everything worked fine. I have a flickering socket rocket that I had to unscrew, but everything else is behaving properly.
Whichever of you did it remotely.....THANK YOU
Actually YOU did it, and I'll tell you the secret of how:
You THREATENED to find and fix the problem. That's it. Tech devices have become really smart over the years, and they sometimes decide to "misbehave," just to watch your reaction (perhaps it is an attention-getting tactic).
Once they found out that you were planning on finding and fixing the problem, it was no longer fun for them. So, they gave up.
That's my theory, at least. ;D
I agree!!! these new fangled eelektronix are smart! and can read our minds!!! SCARY!!!!
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Funny replies.
For the record, the 751 does have an FCC id.
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As we know X10 is always changing things. All of my newer ones have no FCC ID on them.
I did find an old one with an FCC ID on it.
If X10 has farmed out production to a new manufacturing plant as they have closed their factory in China.
The new manufacturer may have gotten one.
So don't be shy.
Give is the FCC ID number. So I can look it up.
Should start with B4S if it was from X10. As B4S is their prefix.
If it is a different prefix then someone is now making the TM751 for X10.
Also the Date Code on the small white sticker usually on the back of the TM751 would help.
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As we know X10 is always changing things. All of mine have no FCC ID on them.
If X10 has farmed out production to a new manufacturing plant as they have closed their factory in China.
The new manufacturer may have gotten one.
So don't be shy.
Give is the FCC ID number. So I can look it up.
Should start with B4S if it was from X10. As B4S is their prefix.
If it is a different prefix then someone is now making the TM751 for X10.
If I'm not mistaken, the "new" TM751's don't have the controlled outlet on them (the hole where the button should be is covered up with a sticker).
It sounds like this one is the older design, with the controlled outlet. (Unless X10 changed the design twice in recent years).
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I found a real old TM751 and it did have a FCC ID number on it. My Date Code 08D14 has no FCC ID but has the relay in it. Also has the small receiver board in it like the CM15A.
Now to confuse things even more.
The independent X10 dealers {don't know about X10 proper}. Now have a TM751-C that is advertised to have a relay in it again. ;)
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What is the C all about???? B:( B:( B:(
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For the record, the 751 does have an FCC id.
Thanks.
My guess is that the noisy lamp was outputting enough RF EMI to affect the 6' distant super-regenerative RF receiver in the TM751. That would explain why the relay did not respond to RF and noise on the powerline explains why the PLC signals did not get through.
It could also be that the noise on the powerline was of sufficient amplitude to directly affect the super-regenerative receiver. A few years back, there was a frequent problem which I dubbed "endless dim syndrome" wherein TM751s would send Dims continuously due to inductive coupling of the 120kHz powerline bursts to the super-regen receiver - something similar might explain this.
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I found a real old TM751 and it did have a FCC ID number on it. My Date Code 08D14 has no FCC ID but has the relay in it. Also has the small receiver board in it like the CM15A.
Now to confuse things even more. rofl
I have one with a 9K48 datecode that has a super-regen receiver and FCC ID. So it looks like the datecode is not a reliable indicator. The FCC ID, however, should be a reliable indicator of the type of receiver.
A further complication is that the main board was also redesigned. The older version only supplied +19V to the RF daughterboard which had an LM7805 linear regulator onboard. The newer RF daughterboard used in the CM15A needs +5V.
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Well, it looks like they *sort of* changed the model numbers.
Apparently (and I saw this on a sales site online, not direct from X10), the TM751A is the one with the pass-through outlet, and the TM751C is the one with the 15A controlled outlet.
It would have been nice to see them use a different number, but at least the letter at the end is a distinction of some sort.
I'm not sure why they would keep manufacturing a transceiver that is "deaf" to the powerline (although it is a lot cheaper to make), instead of just making more RR501's.
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Yes, an RR501 IS polite, and has higher PLC output, but it doesn't do all 16 unit codes. darn it! B:(
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Yes, an RR501 IS polite, and has higher PLC output...
Unless something changed with the redesign of the mainboard, the TM751 and RR501 both had 10Vpp PLC output.
- http://davehouston.org/x10-sig.htm
Europe limits PLC to ~4Vpp so X10 may have anticipated that the FCC would eventually do the same.
Since X10 has discontinued the RR501, I shelved my plans for the RR5x5 which added a serial interface to it. Instead, I designed a powerline modem with RF receiver and serial interface but I doubt it will ever be for more than my own use as the cost of UL approval is prohibitive.
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oopss... sorry about that! From memory, I thought the 501 had a hot output, and others did not... didn't know about the 751 though..
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Here's a picture of the TM751A with a sticker where the switch was.
(http://www.aartech.ca/images/cache/72de581f36601e3988c881ca29ffe4a8.jpg)
There's a large empty area where the relay isn't. The pushbutton (slightly depressed) is hot glued beneath the sticker. As the PCB no longer has On/Off circuitry, it appears they are merely using up cases designed for the older models.
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GEEZZZ... they can't even put the sticker on square?!?!?!
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WOW. Does that TM751A look like it has a quick fix patch job on it. I agree the label is not on straight. ???
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Brian, the FCC id is b4srr501
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Brian, the FCC id is b4srr501
Whoa! I thought you had a TM751.
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RR501 is the better transceiver.
Has both a RF and Power Line receiver in it. Along with a Power Line Transmitter.
Has a Unit switch for 1 or 9.
The internal appliance type relay in it can be controlled by an RF command or a power line command. The TM751 {if it has the relay} can only be controlled by an RF command and is hard wired to Unit 1.
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thank you all.
After all is said and done, I have a 501 and not a TM751. Everything works fine now.
Sorry for the psychology, but I remain baffled by the fact that people (like yourselves) are willing to spend your time helping others with their x10 issues, yet some misguided psycho is able and willing to go into a theater and injure and kill so many.
THANK YOU ALL.
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I remain baffled by the fact that people (like yourselves) are willing to spend your time helping others with their x10 issues, yet some misguided psycho is able and willing to go into a theater and injure and kill so many.
You are baffled by the fact that not everyone is evil?
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Do you have an active coupler repeater?
If so you may want to power cycle both lines into it. On the chance the original power interuption locked it up.
Breaker by breaker would isolate a circuit if the power interuption messed someting up. Then checking individual items on that circuit.
You don't have an x10 test meter do you? Like an XTBM, ELK ESM-1 or Smarthome TesterLinc.
Hi great idea with the circuit breakers I thinking I need a tester though any recommendations don't want to spend to much. Thanks looking forward to your thoughts and suggestions!
Tom
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Tom; The ELK ESM1 and the Smarthome TesterLinc are discontinued.
Automated Outlet use to rent ESM1's but I believe they have stopped doing that.
The Smarthome Professional X10 signal tester is a Monterey and it is around $300
The ACT AT004 also a Professional X10/A10 Signal tester is also around $300
The best tester I and many others have seen is the JV Engineering XTBM.
http://jvde.us/xtb/XTBM_description.htm