X10 Community Forum
🖥️ActiveHome Pro => ActiveHome Pro General => Help & Troubleshooting => Topic started by: BBTandT on August 30, 2012, 02:02:02 AM
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I installed a indoor/outdoor landscape transformer in my house and per the guide at x10pro ( http://www.x10pro.com/pro/landscape.appl.html ) I purchased the AM466 applaince module and the XPT-NS/XP1 to control the module. The transformer is plugged in to the module and the XPT is wired to the house on a circuit on the same phase as the appliance module. The lights are on (I read here that the AM466 will default to the power on position) but the XP1 does not control anything.
Have I missed something here? Powerline noise maybe? Will I have a similar problem when my mini timer comes in?
Thanks in advance!
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Did you verify both the AM466 and the XPT-NS are set to the same X10 Address?
I know the default address from the factory is A1 but can't hurt to check it.
You may also want to rotate the House Code and Unit Code dials around a few times. I have personally had a lamp module with a dirty dial switch and be set to a different address than the dials indicated. That rotating cleared it up.
Yes it still can be a noise or signal sucker killing the signal. Even if on the same phase but not the same branch circuit.
Added thought. The AM466 can be tried in a few different locations of the home. To see if some areas work and others do not.
http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm
http://www.act-remote.com/PCC/uncle.htm
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Any GFCI outlet involved?
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Have I missed something here? Powerline noise maybe? Will I have a similar problem when my mini timer comes in?
Is the XPT is wired into a wall box with a true nuetral? Are you sure it is same phase as the outlet for the AM466? When your timer comes in, you can at least plug it in to same outlet as the AM466 and verify it is working.
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Thanks for the replies!
There is a GFCI involved, and the XPT does have a neutral and a home ground. And both breakers for the outlet that powers the AM466 and XPT are on the same side of the panel, so same phase, right?
I'll try moving the AM around the house and seeing if I have any better luck. I've tried different house and channel codes (same on both of course) but same results. The XPT does feel warm on the lower back side of the unit so I know it's getting power.
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There is a GFCI involved...
Most GFCI outlets block X10. See http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Circuit_Interrupters_And_X10
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One side of a breaker box is not on the same phase and the other side the opposite phase.
Most breaker boxes have adjacent breakers from top to bottom on alternating phase connections.
You may find a chart on the boxes cover showing what each breaker in the row is on each phase.
Two full sized breakers next to each other are normally on opposite phases. Two half sized ones maybe on the same phase.
It is possible your AM466 and XPT-NS are on opposite phases.
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My $0.02
I had a GFI breaker which passed X10 signals, but had a GFI outlet that stopped them cold. Also most arc fault interuptors stop X10 signals cold.
Also to piggy back on Brians comment. On our Square D panel; each vertical ROW of breaker are on same phase with the next row down on the opposite phase. So looking at column only, each single size breaker in the same column will be on opposite phase as you go down the column. This is logical since it allows a "double wide" (or thick) breaker to bridge both phases and supply 220V to stove, water heater, HVAC, etc. Unfortunately this isn't standardized, but it seems to be fairly common. Look for double wide breakers for 220V appliances in your panel and that will tell you the buss/phase arrangement.
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One breaker box arrangement is illustrated at http://davehouston.org/coupling.htm.
IIRC, I liberated the drawing of the breaker box from an X-10 FAQ.
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B:( Okay, that was dumb of me. I never even thought about the adjacent breakers supplying both phases for 220.
Anyway, I tried the appliance module in the same room as the switch, and it worked. Then I swapped breakers in the panel to put the switch and transformer on the same phase, and... nothing.
It is a GFCI outlet, but the x10 faqs specify that for landscape lighting control a GFCI needs to be used. (Plus I'm not wiring this up to the outside and not putting that layer of protection in.) So you think I need a GFI breaker instead? Any way to check noise from CFLs, etc to see if that's the culprit?
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Any way to check noise from CFLs, etc to see if that's the culprit?
You could buy a meter (like Jeff volp's XTBM), or you could just unscrew the bulbs, and see if that fixes the problem. I've seen "noisy" CFLs that were actually buzzing loudly enough to be heard from a foot or two away.
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So you think I need a GFI breaker instead? Any way to check noise from CFLs, etc to see if that's the culprit?
Man, that is a tough question I have new GFI outlet that does not block X10. I can not remember the brand of GFI outlet I had trouble with (was in another house). Before I went and bought a $50 breaker I would unwire the GFI outlet and wire in a standard outlet and test the Appliance Module.
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I'm going to plug it into another outlet on that circuit first and test that way before opening the breaker. Does proximity on the panelmatter at all?
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I'm going to plug it into another outlet on that circuit first and test that way before opening the breaker. Does proximity on the panelmatter at all?
If you are on the same circuit as the XPT, no. However if you have a noise source on that circuit, proximity to the source will effect the signal, or if the GFI is acting as a "signal sucker", same effect. Test the Appliance Module in outlet on same circuit and close to the XPT .
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I did that, reported above. On the same circuit not on gfi it worked. Tonight I'm going to test on different circuits not on gfi.
Update: plugged into another outlet on the original circuit but not gfi protected, yielded the same result as the original setup.
So, same circuit works. Same phase different circuit gfi protected or not, doesn't work. And while I do have a lot of cfl usage in the house, for this test all lights were off. The only thing still running was the network, which is on the same circuit as the transformer, but does not use power line connections. Everything is wired or wireless.
So, where to go from here?
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Well, I'm going to try having a PZZ01 installed, but other than that I'm out of ideas for remote switching. My only other option seems to be wiring a switch up from the outlet downstairs and locating it at the current switch location. Crude and a pain, but fool proof.
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Update: plugged into another outlet on the original circuit but not gfi protected, yielded the same result as the original setup.
So, same circuit works. Same phase different circuit gfi protected or not, doesn't work.
So, where to go from here?
If you are sure the XPT and the appliance Module are on the same phase, then you probably have a noise source or a signal sucker interfereing with the X10 signal. Unplug EVERYTHING on both circuits except the Appliance Module, and turn all lights off. Then see if the Appliance Module now works from the XPT. If so, plug everything back in one at a time to find the source..
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Well I found it. It's a double breaker that powers the air-handling side of my heat pump/furnace.
Now how do I eliminate that noise from the house? I would rather have heat than a light switch after all :)
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Would that unit have some electronic controls or air cleaner in it?
You maybe able to use a wired in filter to just filter the noisy electronic part as I would think the whole unit uses a fair amount of power.
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Well I found it. It's a double breaker that powers the air-handling side of my heat pump/furnace.
Now how do I eliminate that noise from the house? I would rather have heat than a light switch after all :)
The appropriate filter will probably work. It could be noise from the power supply for the electronic controls or the power supply/electronics might have filter capacitors intended to keep noise off the powerline which also filter X10 signals or it might be inductive noise from any motors involved.
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The only electronic control is a Honeywell thermostat, and no other auxiliary devices are attached. What might be the appropriate filter? Is there a filter that I could place on the house circuit to trap or isolate any interference including this source?
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Will have to see what I can find out.
A device that could absorb the noise for the whole house would probably also absorb X10 signals as noise.
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I think we need to do more troubleshooting to pinpoint whether it's noise or signal attenuation. Does the problem go away if either device (or both) is turned off?
If it is noise from the heat pump or blower motor, one solution might be the clamp-on ferrite filters Jeff Volp described in thi thread.
- http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=25126.0
Perhaps Jeff can chime in here.
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If it is noise from the heat pump or blower motor, one solution might be the clamp-on ferrite filters Jeff Volp described in thi thread.
- http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=25126.0
There have been a few reports of the newer variable-speed HVAC blowers causing interference with X10 signals. The fix that seems to work is to install a 20A X10 XPF in series with that circuit.
I don't think that clamp-on ferrite filter will provide enough impedance to be effective. The reason they work with the smart meter is each filter adds about 10 ohms impedance at 120KHz. That combined with a very low impedance shunt filter (my own version is about 0.3 ohm) knocks the smart meter signal down by about 99%.
Here 10 ohms impedance would probably not have a significant effect to either noise or "suckability".
Jeff
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Well I found it. It's a double breaker that powers the air-handling side of my heat pump/furnace.
Do you have an electric furnace in the air handler? If so, you will need to find a way to filter the power feed to the control board only. And if the control board directly drives a variable speed fan, you may have a really hard time filtering because of the higher current demands. If the control board only provides control signals to the fan motor (fan will have seperate power line to the motor with only low voltage control line from the controller board) then you may still be able to filter at the control board. Can you investigate more?
I had similar problem with a Lennox Pulse furnace and got away with filtering power going to the control board. On my current Bryant Heat Pump, the control board powers the varible speed fan directly so I can not filter. Fortunately the control board on this air handler is not noisy.
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There is an electric "furnace" in the air handler, and it is a variable speed Trane 4TEE3. I'm happy to investigate further, but I'd need to be pointed in a direction. A 20A filter could be placed in line with the handler, but would I need two since it is receiving 220 by way of the double breaker?
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There is an electric "furnace" in the air handler, and it is a variable speed Trane 4TEE3. I'm happy to investigate further, but I'd need to be pointed in a direction. A 20A filter could be placed in line with the handler, but would I need two since it is receiving 220 by way of the double breaker?
If the air handler can be separated from the electric heat, and it pulls less than 20A, then you could install a pair of 20A XPF filters to isolate just the variable speed air handler.
Jeff