X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: Phinnay on September 04, 2012, 01:54:09 PM
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hey there!
I've been working with my X10 system since the late 90's and have had good luck with it. We just moved into a new (older) home and nothing is working! The weird part is if plug my X10 keypad into the same outlet as a module, that doesn't even work!
I have a feeling it is a line noise issue. If i plug an X10 XPPF filter into the outlet, and then connect my X10 stuff to the "appliance" side, I can control any module just fine.
A friend mentioned that the BX wiring might be acting as a giant antenna and filling my electrical system with line noise. I don't know if this is possible but my last home was 100% romex and there were no issues.
I am not sure how to troubleshoot this or if if can be fixed, has anyone else ran into simalar problems?
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The BX metal sheath is supposed to be grounded, so that should be even better than Romex rejecting radiated noise.
Does your new home perhaps have one of those new smart electric meters?
Jeff
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no, it is an older home (new to me haha) with a standard meter... 100a service in a new breaker box. Some of the newer circuts are Romex (air conditioner outlets, fridge, etc..) but the rest is all BX.
I will check and confirm the sheath is gounded tonight... I can not imagine why it wouldnt be.
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Any of the new breakers the Arc Fault type?
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Noise/ Signal meter. XTBM
http://jvde.us/xtb/XTBM_description.htm
But if you have a level of noise so great that a controller in the same outlet as an Appliance Module can't control the module...it should be easy to find. Since you are an experienced X10 user: Plug a radio in an Appliance Module and start out plugging your controller in the same circuit. Turn off all other breakers and see if you can control the radio. If you can, you at least have a starting point. Begin moving the radio to other branches, repeating the test. If you can not control the radio, try the same test on another circuit, turning off the circuit you just tested.
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no arc fault breakers yet - are they known to cause problems?
I was considering the XTBM but hoping it was something simple before laying out the cash.. i was amazed that things did not work plugged into the same outlet! must be one heck of a noisy device :D
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Or your entire house is a signal sucker. :o
Start playing with the breakers. If you are sure you don't have a Smartmeter then you should be able to get some clues by using breaker isolation.
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CFL bulbs, noisy power supplies, older noisy florescent ballasts, etc.
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ok, using breaker isolation and removing CFL's, i got the problem down to one circut breaker.
on this circut, there are five outlets and my front door light, all outlets are empty and the light bulb is out on the front door... none of the outlets on this circut will work with the X10 - i plugged in a controller and a lamp module to each one and tried to get it to light, nothing.
The other circuts are fine, no issue now that i removed some CFL's and put a filter on the microwave - those things were causing the rest of the problems..
I tried an outlet tester and it comes back with fault - i took apart the outlet and it seems none of them on this breaker are grounded. The cable going in and out is this fabric covered cable with two wires, red and white both covered in plastic. The casing looks good, no cracks... just no ground.
I am not sure what to do, the outlets are the new 3 prong style, but the green screw is not connected to anything... Im pretty sure that is against code but I am renting so not sure what i can do about it.. does anyone know a work around for this type of terrible wiring :(
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Do the outlets have a label on them. Indicating they are powered by a GFI Breaker?
I am not an electrician but I believe old two wire outlets can be replaced with a 3 pin grounded one and the ground no connected. If the breaker is a GFI and the outlets have a label on them indicating the setup.
I am in a similar situation myself. Two wire Romex and no ground wire in the cable with two prong outlets.
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Nope, only way i knew was my surge strip saying wiring fault... Popped off the cover and saw it was only two wires.
have you had simalar problems with X10 and your wiring?
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No my two wire with no safety ground was OK with X10 and now Insteon.
Though I also have a JV Engineering XTB-IIR that blasts an X10 signal all over my home.
Worse outlet has 1.15 volts of X10 signals when read by a JV Engineering XTBM.
Was marginally OK with an ACT CR134 or CR234 Repeater Coupler and filter use on problem devices.
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I'm voting on a tiny arc somewhere in the ungrounded circuit. So I'm paranoid, but also a firefighter. Something isn't right in this situation and the cloth covered no ground line would be on my fix-it list.
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on this circut, there are five outlets and my front door light, all outlets are empty and the light bulb is out on the front door... none of the outlets on this circut will work with the X10 - i plugged in a controller and a lamp module to each one and tried to get it to light, nothing.
I tried an outlet tester and it comes back with fault - i took apart the outlet and it seems none of them on this breaker are grounded. The cable going in and out is this fabric covered cable with two wires, red and white both covered in plastic. The casing looks good, no cracks... just no ground.
So you are saying that you can plug a controller in one outlet and an Appliance Module in another outlet on same circuit, and with front light turned off and nothing plugged in to any other outlet and the appliance module will not work? Are you sure you have completely traced the entire path of that circuit?
Are any of the outlets near water where they could become very damp (utility room, basement, etc. ) As Knightrider suggested about the small arc, I have had Christmas lights laying in water creating enough leakage to wipe out X10 in most of the house. But you could also have a hidden path for that circuit (dishwasher, furnace, etc. ). At this point a X10 signal meter may be needed, or one of those circuit tracers where you plug a transmitter in one outlet and can sniff the transmitter signal at other outlets, fixtures, appliances. Lowes, Home Despot, etc, have them for about 30 bucks.
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So you are saying that you can plug a controller in one outlet and an Appliance Module in another outlet on same circuit, and with front light turned off and nothing plugged in to any other outlet and the appliance module will not work? Are you sure you have completely traced the entire path of that circuit?
Exactly. I went through and mapped all the circuits in my house, everything is accounted for and I know what breaker does what. I was originally having this noise issue everywhere but removing CFL's and adding XPPF's to noisy appliances fixed things on other branches. I can successfully use X10 on all branches, except this one.
Breaker #9 controls five outlets and my front porch light. If I plug a controller (I have a RadioShack branded SD533) and a module (lamp or appliance) into any outlet on this breaker, nothing happens. Even if both devices are plugged into the same outlet, I'm still unable to control the module.
I no longer have this problem on any of the other branches, Example - my SD533 plugged into an outlet on breaker #5 controls a module on breaker #2 just fine.
The biggest head-scratcher is, why is this happening on just one breaker? what happens at the breaker that is attenuating the interference and isolating it from all other circuits?
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..... isolating it from all other circuits?
One circuit being isolated from all other circuits may be explainable by something written years ago by a X10 industry insider (might be a Phil Kingery, Dave Houston, etc...I can't remember).
It goes like this: Oxidation occuring between the disimilar metal of the circuit breaker buss clips and the panel's buss bar can act as a 100kHz attenuator. High current 60Hz gets readily coupled, but high frequency does not. "Stranger than science"... I don't know if it really happens or not. If it really can happen, wiggling the breaker or or disconnecting from the buss and then re-inserting will solve. FWIW back in 1990s in another home, I removed all breakers and sprayed the buss with Cramolin Red..that did indeed improve X10 communications throughout the home. So maybe there is something to it.
However even if that were happening, it would not stop X10 communications within the branch.
It is beyond any more guess work from me, but we all would like to hear if you solve this.
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So with nothing in any of the outlets and the lights Off.
You can't even get a module to respond to a controller also in the same outlet?
If you can find an AM radio. Does it make all kinds of noise if is near that branch circuit?
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So with nothing in any of the outlets and the lights Off.
You can't even get a module to respond to a controller also in the same outlet?
That is correct... Good idea with the AM radio, I will try that when I get home today...
Oxidation occurring between the dissimilar metal of the circuit breaker buss clips and the panel's buss bar can act as a 100kHz attenuator.
Hrmm, The circuit in question does appear to be one of the original in the home - if it's been there that long i'd bet on some oxidation forming. Would it make sense that the breaker itself was creating the interference and isolating this circuit from the rest of them?
A friend of mine has a sillyscope I can borrow, I'm going to look into how to hook it up and see what is going on. I hate the guessing game but I'm not sure how to troubleshoot this stuff once it's isolated to one branch...
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Tune the radio around a low AM station ~600kHz. If there is 75-200kHz on that branch, you'll hear the harmonics. Ground loops can cause a wire to act like an antenna, picking up RF from the air.
Is it copper or aluminum wire?
For the oscilloscope, you need isolation - I recommend a 120:25VAC step-down transformer. While this will reduce the amplitude of any noise, it's far safer, especially for the inexperienced.
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Would it make sense that the breaker itself was creating the interference and isolating this circuit from the rest of them?
Unless it is a GFI or Arc Fault interrupter, a breaker is a passive device. Unlikely to be a noise generator. Also if you cycle the breaker several times, the breaker body movement and internal parts movement should eliminate any signal blocking phenomenon (he says with confidence and authority as if he knows for sure :' ).
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I hate the guessing game but I'm not sure how to troubleshoot this stuff once it's isolated to one branch...
Boomer. I think you are in uncharted territory. A single branch circuit, with nothing plugged in it or turned on, yet is totally dead to X10 communications. (????)
I suppose you swap a couple of breakers to see if it is coming from your breaker.
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I stopped guessing when I read about the fabric-covered, non-grounded wiring.
Sounds like a dangerous situation to me, perhaps you should have the landlord call in an electrician to make sure it is fixed properly.
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I also once had a loose neutral on a circuit do that to me. Might be worth checking.
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I also once had a loose neutral on a circuit do that to me. Might be worth checking.
Innnnteresttinggg.... Was loose on the back of one of your outlets?
I did not get a chance to work on this last night, will check all outlets and I'm thinking of pulling the outside light off to check the connections - I can definitely see a situation like Dave W mentioned about water getting in there to cause some arc's
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Could it be the breaker is failing? If you have a spare breaker on hand, swap them out. If not, get a new breaker and install it.
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I also once had a loose neutral on a circuit do that to me. Might be worth checking.
Innnnteresttinggg.... Was loose on the back of one of your outlets?
I did not get a chance to work on this last night, will check all outlets and I'm thinking of pulling the outside light off to check the connections - I can definitely see a situation like Dave W mentioned about water getting in there to cause some arc's
Was loose at the bar in the panel. Dead givaway was the lights had a slight flicker.