X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: VTGlcokster on September 10, 2012, 08:06:15 PM
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I just installed Bay Web's internet based thermostats in my duplex. They have an occupancy sensor feature using X10 wireless motion detectors. The sensor closest to the boiler room works perfectly, but the apartment located on the opposite side of the house has an intermittent at best. I have placed the sensor as close to the boiler room as possible, but it still doesn't work reliably.
I believe I need a wireless repeater but everything I see when I google the term x10 wireless repeater is discontinued. I am new to X10 technology so any advice would be greatly appreciated.
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Nope. The X10 repeater is long gone and there is no substitute. However there is some "hacks" which can be applied to the "XXXEye" models of X10 motion sensors whic helps to extend their range. Serchthis forum for "passive repeater" "motion sensor range" "MS16A range". It is basically hot gluing a 18 inch wire on the left side of the sensor. What is acting as the receiver/transceiver for the X10 motion sensors?
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The Bay Web thermostat control module in the boiler room is acting as the transceiver. It's located about 20' away and 8' under the motion sensor. There are two sound proof walls one the first floor and a 8" concrete wall in the basement that are impeding the signal.
Bay Web's user manual says to extend the antennae by wire nutting another piece of wire to the control module. I tried that with about 10' of 18 gauge speaker wire but I had no luck. Should I use a different type of wire or different length of wire?
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Bay Web's user manual says to extend the antennae but wire nutting another piece of wire to the control module. I've tried that with about 10' of 18 gauge speaker wire but I had no luck. Should I use a different wire or different length of wire?
I assume you mean 10 inches - 10 feet is likely to cause problems rather than cure them.
You might improve things by adding a passive radiator to the motion detector. See...
- http://davehouston.org/X10_feng_shui.htm
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Nope I meant 10 feet. The manual didn't say how long to extend the antennae so I brought the wire as close to the motion detector as possible.
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I'm using a PMS02 motion detector. Does anyone know which side I would mount the external antennae to and how long it should be?
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18" is optimal and it doesn't much matter which side - just mount it as close to the motion sensor as possible. In my measurements of signal strength, horizontal vs. vertical did not make much difference.
Does the Bay Web unit have an FCC ID on the case? Is there a users manual online?
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I'll have to check on the FCC ID number. I suspect it does.
Here's the link to the User Guide.
http://www.bayweb.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/BW-WT4-1DOC.pdf
Thanks,
Andy
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I assume you have changed the X10 address (p14 of manual) of the apartment motion sensor.
If you are not already using the one wired input, you might consider using a wired occupancy sensor for the apartment. Of course, this depends on how easily you can install the needed wiring.
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I'm using a PMS02 motion detector. Does anyone know which side I would mount the external antennae to and how long it should be?
Yeah, 18 inches, mounted on left side of unit as you are looking at the face. I use 22 AWG solid magnet wire http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2036277&znt_campaign=Category_CMS&znt_source=CAT&znt_medium=RSCOM&znt_content=CT2032227
but insulated stranded will work just as well. I have some HawkEyes with end of wire hot glued at the top of the the left side unit so the wire hangs down about 16 inches. Other units have wire glued at bottom of unit to point up...both work well. Internally, theantenna of the PMSo2 is located in the upper left corner of unit (looking at the face).
FWIW http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=12013.msg68177
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Yes one apartment is set to A-1 and the other to A-3. Unfortunately, I am using the wired inputs for alarm sensing, one for the pellet boiler and the other for a moisture sensor.
I assume you have changed the X10 address (p14 of manual) of the apartment motion sensor.
If you are not already using the one wired input, you might consider using a wired occupancy sensor for the apartment. Of course, this depends on how easily you can install the needed wiring.
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When you say mounted does this mean glued or taped to the outside of the casing?
Also, would making the antennae on the transceiver 18" long help?
I'm using a PMS02 motion detector. Does anyone know which side I would mount the external antennae to and how long it should be?
Yeah, 18 inches, mounted on left side of unit as you are looking at the face. I use 22 AWG solid magnet wire http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2036277&znt_campaign=Category_CMS&znt_source=CAT&znt_medium=RSCOM&znt_content=CT2032227
but insulated stranded will work just as well. I have some HawkEyes with end of wire hot glued at the top of the the left side unit so the wire hangs down about 16 inches. Other units have wire glued at bottom of unit to point up...both work well. Internally, theantenna of the PMSo2 is located in the upper left corner of unit (looking at the face).
FWIW http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=12013.msg68177
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When you say mounted does this mean glued or taped to the outside of the casing?
Also, would making the antennae on the transceiver 18" long help?
A few years back, I did extensive testing using an RF receiver that output the received signal strength. I tested with motion sensors, Stick-a-Switch and security door/window sensors and security motion sensors and with varying orientations of the passive radiator.
I found no meaningful difference with orientation either relative to the sensor or horizontal/vertical. All of the hair-splitting, voodoo, magical recommendations otherwise are pure speculation. I suspect it merely needs to be within the near-field of the internal antenna. So, mount it anyway that makes sense appearance-wise. Early on, shortly after I first published the web article, a user wrote that he hid it behind dry wall with no ill effect on range.
For the receiver, try 9" and 18".
If there is an FCC ID, it may enable us to find a schematic of the receiver and that might lead to better suggestions for improving/replacing the antenna and/or RF receiver module.
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When I get home tonight I'll look for the FCC ID.
As for the wire can I use a strand from a romex wire and does the wire need to be attached to just the outside case or to circuit board inside the sensor?
Thanks!
When you say mounted does this mean glued or taped to the outside of the casing?
Also, would making the antennae on the transceiver 18" long help?
A few years back, I did extensive testing using an RF receiver that output the received signal strength. I tested with motion sensors, Stick-a-Switch and security door/window sensors and security motion sensors and with varying orientations of the passive radiator.
I found no meaningful difference with orientation either relative to the sensor or horizontal/vertical. All of the hair-splitting recommendations otherwise are pure speculation. I suspect it merely needs to be within the near-field of the internal antenna. So, mount it anyway that makes sense appearance-wise.
For the receiver, try 9" and 18".
If there is an FCC ID, it may enable us to find a schematic of the receiver and that might lead to better suggestions for improving/replacing the antenna and/or RF receiver module.
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As for the wire can I use a strand from a romex wire and does the wire need to be attached to just the outside case or to circuit board inside the sensor?
The type of wire doesn't matter. I used a straightened steel coat hanger.
Keep it outside of the case with no internal connection to the sensor. An internal connection can detune the sensor RF frequency and be counter productive.
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That the antenna extends outside the case is positive as it indicates the RF receiver (or, at least, the antenna) is isolated so there's no shock hazard. It probably means we can add a more efficient external antenna (even an amplified one) which will solve any range issues but will raise warranty issues since we will need a GND connection as well. There's also the question of cost - it may cost more than occupancy sensing will save.
That Bay Web mispells antenna is a negative. :'
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If I measured the external antenna length and added extra wire to the existing antenna and made the overall length 18" would that help?
DHouston, I appreciate all the help you've given so far. Thank you!
Andy
That the antenna extends outside the case is positive as it indicates the RF receiver (or, at least, the antenna) is isolated so there's no shock hazard. It probably means we can add a more efficient external antenna (even an amplified one) which will solve any range issues but will raise warranty issues since we will need a GND connection as well. There's also the question of cost - it may cost more than occupancy sensing will save.
That Bay Web mispells antenna is a negative. :'
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If I measured the external antenna length and added extra wire to the existing antenna and made the overall length 18" would that help?
I would try 9" first. If that's no help, try 18".
But, I doubt either will be a solution. All of the X10 sensors have very poor range. If Bay Web builds their own, they may not have this problem but they probably use X10 made sensors.
Adding this antenna might give you enough gain to receive from the apartment.
- http://davehouston.org/eggbeater.pdf
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The current antenna is about 9" currently. That's why I was thinking of extending it to 18"
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For those following this thread who may not have seen this...
- http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=27347.msg153929#msg153929
adding an 18" passive radiator at the sensor solved VTGIcokster's problem.
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The current antenna is about 9" currently. That's why I was thinking of extending it to 18"
9" is about 1/4 wavelength at 310MHz and 1/4 wavelength is usually optimal for a receiver. It depends on how much ground plane is in the receiver - too little and even 1/4 wavelength can be too long.
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Before this thread I hadn't looked at these thermostats. The concept is good and it's good to see more Internet enabled HA hardware. I suspect WiFi modules for lights, etc. will soon become cost effective.
Had I designed the Bayweb thermostats, I would have included a 310MHz RF transmitter that could be controlled from the Internet to control lights/appliances via a TM751.
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They're perfect for my situation. Heat is included in the rent and over the years I have seen fuel consumption increase from 800 gallons to 1300. When my wife and I lived there we used on average 800 gallons of HHO per year. We used a programmable thermostat downstairs and upstairs where the bedrooms are we kept at a constant 65 F.
With these thermostats I can control the maximum temperature the T-stats can be set to and with the occupancy sensors the temperature will turn down when activity isn't detected for a certain amount of time. Right now I have it set to one hour.
I also converted the boiler in the duplex to run off wood pellets so there should be a considerable savings just from that. Our single family home has a wood pellet boiler and we have been saving about 50% over heating the house with oil.