X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: satish on November 14, 2012, 07:18:18 AM
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Hii
we are using the x10 devices for the home automation they are working perfect on raw power but when it comes to online ups they are not able to receive the signal. we tried nearly 5-6 companies online ups but the problem is same, but they are working on off-line ups is there any one who got the same problem plzz help me..
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By online UPS. You are talking about one that is always providing the AC power so no transfer time is involved?
Do you know if the UPS has a PURE AC Sinewave output?
Good chance the waveform is noisy or not a pure sinewave.
Also they may have a filter on them that effectively kills the X10 signals.
Good chance you would also have problems with an off line UPS when powered by its internal battery.
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Thanks for the quick response.
we are using an APC SURTD 500VA online UPS. we sat with the APC vendor and also verified the output using a power quality analyzer it is generating pure sine wave.
They are saying the online ups uses a PWM based switching and the offline uses a mosfet based output generation. don't know if it has any impact B:(
We tried with a lot of offline UPS available in the market. it is working perfectly alright in both direct and on battery mode.
Only when we are using the online UPS the controller is making a strange noise.
Appreciate if somebody having an online UPS test it and tell us if they succeeded.
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My guess is there's a filter killing X10 as shown in the diagram (from APC) used on this webpage...
- http://pcguide.com/ref/power/ext/ups/typesOnLine-c.html
However, if by controller is making a strange noise, you mean the X10 controller, I would suspect they build the sine wave using harmonics which may not be filtered.
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Hii
we are using the x10 devices for the home automation they are working perfect on raw power but when it comes to online ups they are not able to receive the signal.
Dumb question here. I am probably missing part of the equasion, but: Why would you *run* X10 on a UPS? During a power outage, X10 for home automation is pretty useless as it depends on powerline sine wave to transmit commands. (Or are you trying to control devices on the output of the UPS ?).
Put X10 filters on the UPS to eliminate electrical trash or signal sucker influence from UPS.
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500 VA SURTD?
I can't find any APC SURTD UPS that is that small on their web site. For the USA.
Are we maybe talking a different part of the world?
I can find some 5000 VA ones.
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Dumb question here. I am probably missing part of the equasion, but: Why would you *run* X10 on a UPS?
From the link I cited earlier...
Under normal operation the online UPS is always running off the battery, using its inverter, while the line power runs the battery charger. For this reason, this type of UPS is sometimes also called a double-conversion or double-conversion online UPS. This design means that there is no transfer time in the event of a power failure--if the power goes out, the inverter (and its load) keeps chugging along and only the battery charger fails.
So they run it whether they have power or not.
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So they run it whether they have power or not.
Yeah, I got that. My question was not clear enough. A 230V 500VA inverter is good sized, but not "whole house". So what can be done with "home automation" X10 (as stated in OP) during a power failure? Why have X10 on the output of a UPS, (implied in satish 06:10:31 AM post). Which is why I said throw some filters on the UPS.
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Brain just sparked. Maybe satish has house wired with a "UPS branch". In which case X10 on the branch might make sense. Regardless X10 and UPS has always been problematic.
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My guess is they do not want any delay after power loss for a PC and they have the CM15 plugged into the PC USB port with power from the UPS (or nearby). Harmonics from the inverter are likely causing distress for the power transformer and isolation transformer laminations in the CM15 as well as wreaking havoc on X10 PLC.
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I read through the thread a few times, and it sounds to me like you have equipment on a UPS that you are trying to control using X10. Either that, or you have X10 equipment that you are trying to control with a controller that is plugged into a UPS - I'm not sure which.
Either way, it makes sens to me that it *would* work with an "offline" UPS, and it *won't* work with an "online" UPS.
The problem is that X10 signals can't pass through the inverter. So, in the "offline" UPS, the load is connected directly to the AC line until power goes out, and it switches to battery. The signals are able to pass through, since there is no inverter in the way.
However, the "online" UPS always has the load running off the battery, via the inverter. That's why it won't pass the X10 signals.
I hope that explains it.
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Many offline UPS units have a noise filter on their AC Input.
My APC BX1000 is a signal sucker and I seriously doubt any conroller on its output side will reach the incoming power outlet.
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http://www.megafileupload.com/en/file/374578/online-ups-vs-x10-docx.html
see this link guys u can get the correct information about my problem...
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Thanks for the diagram.
I am thinking that Dave Houston may have provided some leads.
I also think the online UPS maybe have harmonics on the output or a filter to take the harmonics out. Killing the X10 signals.
The noise from the controller also would indicate some sort of problem with the output of the UPS.
I wounder if a heavy duty wired in X10 type filter on the UPS Output would help.
Would have to be a 250 volt 50 cycle one.
Do the modules and controller work with the Off Line UPS running on backup battery power?
Use care we have seen some output dirty AC on batteries and I actually burned up a TM751 while testing on an UPS using its batteries.
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thanxs for the replies
can u explain me about heavy duty wired x10 at the output of the online ups...how to remove those harmonics created by the ups...actually we observed the output of the ups in fluke meter the harmonics are very low nearly 0.3%...
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Have you used a Scope to look at the output?
It may not be harmonics. It could be the UPS has a filter on it that reduces any noise and harmonics to the low level you are seeing.
In that case. It could be the filter in the UPS absorbing the X10 signals as noise.
I don't have any information on who may make a heavy duty filter designed for X10 use for 240 volts 50 cycles.
X10Pro made a XPF 20 Amp wired in filter for use on 120 volts 60 cycles. Though with X10 closing their factory and having a few select modules made. I believe the XPF was one of the now gone devices.
I believe the 240 volt European Modules, like from Marmitek, may not be effected as they have their own manufacturers.
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What else do you have on the UPS? If you have a computer (or computers) on the UPS, those power supplies might be creating noise which, added to noise created by the UPS, are interfering with the signals.
If you can, you might try plugging both the CM15A and the module you are trying to control, into the same power strip, plugging that into a filter, and THEN plugging that into the UPS. The filter might be able to block the other noise that is interfering with the X10 signals.
Can I ask why you need the CM15 and the X10 module to be on the UPS?
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I looked up "online ups" and the first thing pops up is United Parcel Service. Can you provide what you mean by "online ups"? Thanks
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Dan;
Basically the UPS is always running to provide the AC power to the load.
When the AC power from the power lines is there. The Charging circuit charges the batteries and runs the inverter making the AC output.
When the AC power from the power lines is lost. The inverter runs from the batteries.
With an online UPS there is no short loss of power to the load. It never even glitches for a brief time.
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Try "Uninterrupted Power Supply". Some switch loads very fast, some are true floating power supplies.
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Thanks. Now I understand. An Uninterrupted Power Supply is good where your local power company is always going off and you need power that always works.
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I run a UPS my computers and on my AV equipment. I don't necessarily need to use the equipment when the power is out, but I was concerned about power flickering. When trees touch the lines (happens a lot in the Pacific NW with all the wet fir trees) the power doesn't go out, but it flickers the lights and can freak out a PC power supply. Since most events only last a second or so and they happen in clusters, I didn't want to have the computer or DVR get scrambled from consecutive reboots.
I found that all of my UPS units are signal suckers regardless of brand and ended up filtering all of them. I've never tried running X10 behind the UPS, but in my case it obviously wouldn't work since I'm filtering.