X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: PG on April 12, 2013, 01:58:38 PM
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Hello,
I have wired my entire home with WS12a switches and some WS14a switches. About 2 weeks ago, i purchased the new Insteon Hub and installed it, with the app on my iphone. I programmed some switches on timers and started playing around with the app. After about 1 week, I started to notice that some lights were coming on during the middle of the night. Because of this, I disconnected the Hub (which is known to have lots of initial problems and bugs) and thought it was a result of a bug with the Insteon Hub.
After it was disconnected, I noticed that the lights were still coming on in the middle of the night - with the HUB unplugged. After doing some research on this forum and others, it seems that it could be a neighbour with the same codes or some noise on the line. It seems like quite a coincidence that any noise or neighbours would appear exactly as I installed the Insteon Hub, however, we tried unplugging everything in the house to reduce potential noise but some lights still came on in the middle of the night.
So, last night I changed the codes on some of lights that come on more frequently but the still came on around 5am. One light came on 3 times - each time after I turned it off.
Obviously this is extremely frustrating and my wife is ready to rip all the X10 switches out of the house. In addition, my 2 year old son has been woken up 3 times over the past few weeks (and therefor we have woken up) with is room light coming on at 5am.
The only solution I can think of is adding filters to the main electrical inputs to the house but that seems rather extreme, as well as odd since this all began with the installation of the Insteon Hub.
Any help anyone can suggest would be hugely valuable to me.
Any suggestions?
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Since you changed your HCUC (especially important is House Code if you want to eliminate neighbor possibilities) and the lights still came on, it isn't likely from a neighbor. Also noise usually blocks X10 signals. Noise turning on modules is very rare. I think you are looking under the wrong rocks.
What was controlling the lights before the hub was installed? AHP and CM15A? TM751 or RR501 transceivers with remote? Unplug any transceivers as a test.
If you have AHP and CM15A, what is the Activity Log reporting?
Are the lights coming on at the same time each night?
Has power company installed a Smartmeter recently?
Finally, power sags, brownouts, power flickers can cause modules to come on. Does you lights flicker periodically?
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I suspect it was pure coincidence that it started when you installed the hub. There are frequent reports of similar events where no Insteon hub is involved.
And, changing addresses would seem to rule out the unlikely scenario wherein noise somehow morphs into valid X10 commands repeatedly (and only in the middle of the night).
I would look for something that causes spikes or sags on the powerline, like a motor starting or oldstyle fluorescent ballasts (maybe even at a neighbors).
Also, where are you located? There seems to be a problem like this associated with smartmeters used by Duke Energy in the Cincinnati area.
Finally, given there's a child in the house, we can't rule out the tooth fairy. :P
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Yes, the tooth fairy is a good next investigation...
Until then, thank you for your responses. I very much appreciate your time to assist me.
I did speak with X10 support who said similar things. One thing they did mention was to also change the number code, which I did not do. I will try this as well.
For more background, I live in Toronto, Ontario and yes, we do have a Smart Meter installed. This meter was installed before we upgraded all the wiring in the house. I'm not aware of how this could affect the switches but this could be a factor - however, this was not a factor before beginning to use the Insteon Hub.
Also, I had planned on installing AHP, but hadn't before trying the Insteon Hub. So, I've only been using the switches manually up until this point. I was awaiting stock of the CM15a from X10 and then purchasing that and the newest version of AHP.
X10 support also suggested resetting the switches by powering off each breaker for 10 minutes to possibly reset them. I had thought that these switches were 'dumb' in that they just listened on the line for instructions and then followed them, without storing any info on the switch itself, but support said that this was also possible.
I'm going to power off the breakers on each switch for 10minutes to attempt to reset them and see what happens.
Failing that, support also suggested removing the switches that are problematic and swapping them with known 'good' switches to see if there could be anything with the powerline in the location, rather than the switch. This sounds like a good investigation as well.
Thank you for your info on noise and the probability of noise turning on switches. This is very helpful as I continue to investigate. Also, we do not experience any flickering or noticeable spikes in power. We haven't had any issues before.
We do have a baby monitor, which we have unplugged since this began, just to be sure that this wasn't a cause. We've also unplugged the modem and most electronics as a precaution.
I wonder if the fact that there is now nothing controlling these switches cause them to act erratically.
I wonder if the establishment of a working AHP system with a CM15a would try and 'take hold' of signals and return order to the system.
With this additional background information, I would still value any other thoughts that you might have to try and address this problem.
Many Thanks!
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One thing they did mention was to also change the number code, which I did not do. I will try this as well.
For more background, I live in Toronto, Ontario and yes, we do have a Smart Meter installed.
I had thought that these switches were 'dumb' in that they just listened on the line for instructions and then followed them, without storing any info on the switch itself, but support said that this was also possible.
I wonder if the fact that there is now nothing controlling these switches cause them to act erratically.
I wonder if the establishment of a working AHP system with a CM15a would try and 'take hold' of signals and return order to the system.
1. Changing HC will rule out a neighbor, unless the neighbor is using multiple House Codes. Changing Unit Codes won't hurt.
2. There are reports on the forum of Smartmeters not immediatly after installation as causing a problem. Only later as the power company began initializing some of the control features. FWIW.
3. The switches are dumb. The only "memory" is they will remember the last dim setting and come back on at that brightness, otherwise they are a low IQ remote controllable dimmer.
4. Doubtful. Receiving commands over the powerline from a remote or a controller like the CM15A, does not change, program, or "update" the switch in any way other than to change its state. Also these switches are one way only. They do not send back "status" information, so AHP and the CM15A does not know the actual state of the switch, only that it has been sent a command. AHP is oblivious to "local control" at the switch. So unless the irratic lights are actually getting a valid X10 signal from the lines, AHP will never know they came on.
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Update:
Well, I turned off the main house breaker for half an hour to attempt to reset any settings that may have been present in the switches.
Last night however, two lights came on by themselves, again around 5am.
I'm about to pull out these switches and give up on x10 which is unfortunate because I was really looking forward to building a nice system. I just can't have this happening on a nightly basis and quite frankly, it's not worth the hassle.
I'd very much appreciate any final suggestions if anyone has any...
Many thanks for you suggestions thus far...
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Do you have anything else that is sending X10 signals that you haven't mentioned yet?
The PSR511 security light will send a whole bunch of commands at dusk/dawn (based on light levels) and on motion (Dan needs to remember that if he finds a replacement).
Certain X10 motion sensors also send signals at dusk/dawn if set to do so.
An X10 remote stuck down the back of the couch that the cat sits on at 5am every day is a stretch, but not unheard of. Also not likely since you changed the House Code.
Perhaps you could let us know how many modules you have, what they are and their HCUC so we can take a more intelligent guess that doesn't involve leprechauns or tooth fairies.
As an aside, how does a tooth fairy take the plural? We have one spoonful, but two spoonsful - we also have one passer-by, but two passers-by. Is it possible that the plural of tooth fairy should be teeth fairy? Or is there only one tooth fairy (like one true Santa Claus) and I'm just making things more complicated than they really need to be?
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...we do not experience any flickering or noticeable spikes in power.
The spikes and sags that can cause this are of very short duration. You're unlikely to notice them even with an oscilloscope.
The X10 tech's suggestion to swap the affected switches with unaffected switches is a good one as is the suggestion to change address codes (as you've already done).
A CM15A is unlikely to cure or help troubleshoot this.
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Last night however, two lights came on by themselves, again around 5am.
I'm about to pull out these switches and give up on x10
I'd very much appreciate any final suggestions if anyone has any...
Well I have three suggestions to look at:
Try and assertain if they are coming on at the same time every morning. Does anything else come on at same time? (Coffermaker, HVAC, etc). This might find the cause.
Are these WS12 new? If so I would see if X10 will exchange them. If it IS spikes as dhouston suggests and only two out of many are coming ON, they may be less resistant to sags and spikes. This used to be a very big problem for X10 back in the 1980's. X10 improved the situation by adding MOVs (surge supressors) to their remote control modules. Who knows, maybe X10 is trying to save 2 cents again by removing them, or maybe yours are bad. I would start with getting X10 to exchange.
Finally, Smarthome.com is still selling Insteon modules that will also respond to X10 codes. Since the are X10 and Insteon, you could slowly migrate to an Insteon system which is likely to be more stable.
$0.02
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Thanks for all your suggestions...
We have 39 WS12a and 6 WS14a switches in the house. We have no other x10 modules.
They do tend to come on around the same general time but it's difficult to say if they are all coming on at the same time. I usually awaken to find 2 or 3 lights on set to full on the 2nd floor.
They are new WS12a's. I waited for over 8 months for these newer switches to come back in stock because I was told that x10 switched manufacturers and it took a while to get back in supply. Maybe the new supplier has cheapened them with this result?
What's important to remember, I think, is that none of this happened over the original 6 months these switches have been installed for. It's only since the hub was installed that this started happening.
The only electrical event that would be generated by the house around 5am would be our heat system, that operates 4 thermostats to a control box triggering 4 water pumps on our hydronics system. But, they've been operating without a problem withe the x10's since installation. Other than that, just a fridge.
I've removed the light in my sons room and replaced it with a traditional dimmer. I can't take the chance in my sons room for any more random wake ups. I also returned the Insteon Hub today.
I was going to order the CM15a tomorrow as a last attempt before trying to return the switches or swap them from X10.
Thanks for these suggestions and guidance. If you have any more thoughts I'm all ears.
Many Thanks!
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Since you do not yet have AHP, this isn't your problem, but be sure you do not accidently turn on the AHP "Lifestyle" feature which monitors X10 commands on the lines and then begins to repeat them automatically after a few days of monitoring (it can not monitor local control at the switches). The Insteon Hub does not have a similar feature does it?
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Didn't you remove the Hub and the problems are still there?
Smarthome is in the process of beta testing a new hub as the original was a disaster in the making. Maybe a marketing push before engineering got all the bugs out.
From what I saw. Present owners are going to get a replacement and a bonus Insteon Module for free. Can't remember exactly what the bonus was.
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What's important to remember, I think, is that none of this happened over the original 6 months these switches have been installed for. It's only since the hub was installed that this started happening.
That everything was OK for 6 months is immaterial. Switching power supplies might only become noisy after months or years of use. And, as everyone has told you, the hub is unlikely to have caused the problem.
The only electrical event that would be generated by the house around 5am would be our heat system, that operates 4 thermostats to a control box triggering 4 water pumps on our hydronics system. But, they've been operating without a problem withe the x10's since installation. Other than that, just a fridge.
Any motor can be a source of inductive spikes and this may also change over time. Spikes/dips might also come from outside sources. How many residences share the distribution transformer? It may even be that your electric utility is doing some switching at the substation in early morning hours.
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Update
Thanks once again for all the feedback. I very much appreciate everyone taking the time to give me suggestions and analysis. It has been extremely helpful.
Here is what I've done since my last post...
X10 support suggested I swap a known problem switch with another one that has not been known to cause problems before. So, I did just that. The first night nothing happened with either switch, but the second night, the switch that was coming on by itself, came on in the new location. The 'known good' switch from the 'good' location, has not come on by itself.
What this leads me to believe is that this is a switch problem. Had the 'good' switch come on in the 'bad' location, we could have deduced that it was a powerline issue, however, since this location seems to be OK with the 'good' switch, I'm thinking we can rule that out.
Because the 'faulty' switch is still 'faulty' in the new location (ie. coming on by itself) can we deduce that its a 'bad' switch?
Does this new info help with any analysis?
Of note, these are the newer WS12a switches that X10 was out of stock for, for about 6 months. They were moving to a new supplier and I waited to order 39 of them for my house. Could it be that their new supplier changed the design and that these are somehow faulty? Just a thought.
I would welcome any and all suggestions on next steps. My thought is to contact X10 with this problem and see if they will replace these 'faulty' switches, however, folks here may have other suggestions.
Again, many thanks for you suggestions. They are highly valued and I appreciate you taking the time to help me with this problem.
Thanks,
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If you have confirmed that the switches are an issue no matter where they are located (both location and circuit change) and have verified that changing the House code and possibly unit code also has no affect (which it sounds like you have), then I would definitely try to get X10 to replace the bad ones. The work that you have done pretty clearly says that the issue is with the specific hardware and not with the installation or surrounding equipment. There are things that can be done to some X10 components to improve them, but pretty much all of those require a decent investment of time and void the warranty. If X10 will swap them out, I'd definitely go that route.
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Good luck getting X10 to replace them. This is likely a combination of inductive spikes and vulnerable switches. Various X10 switches have exhibited this vulnerability for several years.
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Considering that the OP purchased 39 in a single order (presumably from x10.com directly), I would imagine X10 would be a little more open to helping than they typically are. Last time I tried to get an RMA, they were willing to help too, but it was a silly problem. One of my MS16A motion sensors was missing one of the clear rubber grommets/o-rings that slip over the mounting screw. X10 was not willing to send me a single o-ring and would only swap the whole unit. Since the unit would have tested OK, I'm sure they would have charged me 15% restocking or something stupid. Plus, I'd be paying shipping one or two ways all for a $0.05 bit of rubber. I just used silicone obviously.
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Update
Just to let everyone know, I spoke with Bill at X10 support and he has been great. While they are not aware of any manufacturer issues with the latest version of WS12a switches, they are going to replace the faulty switches I have running in my home. In total, I have 22 faulty switches out of 39 ordered and so this is great. I have been very happy with the level of support offered by X10. I have read some less than stellar reports, however, my experience has been very good. Which, as we all know, is often not the case today with most companies, let alone mail order/internet based ones.
I want to thank everyone for their time and attention to help be work through the potential issues with these switches. Your advise and wisdom was extremely valuable to me in diagnosing these problems and invaluable to me as I worked through the process with X10.
Many thanks, and I'll keep everyone informed of the progress with the new swtiches.
Thanks!
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Thanks for the update. I hope the replacements are better.
Keep us in the loop.
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Yeah, I hope the replacements work for you. Though, I'm a bit skeptical that replacements will be a complete fix if 22 of 39 were faulty (~60%). Of course, if you ordered them at one time, then I would assume they all came from a single batch which could have been close to tolerance. Hopefully this new set will be from a different/better batch!
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Though, I'm a bit skeptical that replacements will be a complete fix if 22 of 39 were faulty (~60%).
Yeah bkenobi, I think you are right.
PG let us know if the replacements fix your problem.
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Update:
Bill at X10 has been quite good in terms of knowledge and support. I spoke with him the entire time and he processed the RMA. Sadly, we are in a holding pattern as we wait for stock of WS12 replacement switches to come into inventory. With no ETA in sight, I'm fearful that if this goes past July, I will be over 1 year since purchase and this could pose a problem with the RMA. I'll keep everyone informed as this progresses.
Thanks,
PG
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PG, You are on record as having issues before the warranty is over.
Not your fault X10 has a supply problem.
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Agreed. As long as they have started the RMA (or at least noted in the system that you are waiting for stock to process the RMA) prior to the warranty expiration, you should be good. It's still unacceptable IMO that this should have dragged out for a year, but at least it looks like you are making progress on a solution!
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Still awaiting stock of WS12a switches from X10. Boy, this is sure taking a long time. Very frustrated here going on to one year of problems with these switches. I've discovered that hard switching each switch to off eliminates the problem of switches turning on by themselves, but it certainly defeats the purpose of having these fancy switches that can be remote controlled.
If anyone has any suggestions on alternatives (switch models or other hardware) I'd certainly appreciate your thoughts...
Thanks,
PG
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If you have not contacted X10 recently. You may want to contact them.
A web search of four independent X10 dealers. All showed they have WS12As in stock.
When you use the safety bulb change disconnect switch on the WS12A. You basically disconnect it from the circuit. So it can't go back On.
The location where the WS12As are. Do they have a Neutral Power wire in the switch box? As finding an alternate switch may involve ones that need a Neutral power connections and don't steal power through the light bulbs.
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Well I'm surprised to see this forum back up.
I have given up on X10. I ended up pulling all 46 swtiches out of my home after getting stonewalled by X10. They basically ignored the fact that I've been waiting on an RMA for over a year, and when they went through the re orgainzation, they are ignoring my RMA.
So, let this be a warning to everyone, X10 can't be trusted.
Junk.
And, the worst service ever. Stay away!
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It should be noted that X10 went belly up in August and has been taken over by another company.
They are honoring some returns so it may be worth trying to contact them.
Note: the bought the X10 domain.
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They aren't honoring jack.
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I wouldn't expect them to look after any old issues.
However they had stated originally they would look after some RMAs, specifically those for the Airsight IP cameras.
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They aren't honoring jack.
They are a different company from X10 Wireless that went into bankruptcy liquidation. I would expect them to honor warranty problems from their own sales, but why should they honor warranty claims from a bankrupt company just because they bought some of its assets at liquidation?
Jeff
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Because when you operate as the business that went into bankruptcy you typically inherit their liabilities as well.
They are selling the same items under the same website and even utilize the same logo...
The new owners of this site obviously have the files from the previous x10 because I can still login using my old login. Just above, at the top, is also old links to items that were previously sold by x10 that link 404. Proprietary files/information aren't just given away like that.did a side deal happen without the courts knowing about it? I wonder.
Besides the above, their site stated they would honor previous warrantied items (for which they obviously don't)