X10 Community Forum

🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: bkenobi on October 14, 2015, 11:26:43 AM

Title: Very laggy X10 performance
Post by: bkenobi on October 14, 2015, 11:26:43 AM
My system has been working fine for quite some time...until last weekend.  When out of town, we apparently had some sort of power issue due to a wind storm.  When I returned, I found that the entire system is working very poorly.  To be specific, if I try to turn a light (e.g. WS467) on locally, it works perfectly.  If I send a command from any source (HR12A, MS16A, CM15A, XPT, SC503, etc), it takes 5+ seconds for the command to go through.  I pulled out my XTBM and found that I do not get a response from the XTB-IIR with a signal strength so it appears I have an issue with noise/bad module/something else.

So, I took the XTBM to the basement and turned EVERYTHING off.  I then turned on the breaker for the XTB-IIR and the closest outlet.  Perfect 9.99 with 0.0 noise.  I went through and found that one circuit seems to be problematic intermittently.  I took the XTBM up to that room and unplugged everything and still had a problem.  But, then I realized that that circuit also feeds my attic fan on that end of the house.  I confirmed that SOMETHING in that setup is the issue, but what?

My fan is not simple, but I think there are 3 components that are possible culprits.  I installed an Arduino Uno with temperature and humidity sensors to control when the fan is needed.  The Arduino is powered by a wall wart and commands the fan on via a PSC04 one-way transmitter.  The fan is hooked up to 3 switches:

It's a long story why I have 3 and how they are wired, so let's just say that the 2 mechanical switches don't exist cause I know they aren't the issue.  I believe that the problem is related to either the Arduino PSU, the PSC04, or the WS13A.

To test, I unplugged the PSC04 and PSU and pulled the load wire from the WS13A.  I think after plugging/unplugging/combining these modules, I can say that the PSU is likely not the problem.  But, I can't really say that either the transmitter or switch are the problem.  I suppose if the transmitter were at fault, it could be related to the Arduino commanding things, but I haven't investigated this yet.

I'm curious if anyone can offer any advice/insight into either of these.  When I see the issue, the XTBM does not get a response from the XTB-IIR with signal strength and I tend to see "HIGH NOISE LEVEL" and "BSC..." messages.  I assume that the delayed response when turning on lights is the XTB-IIR waiting for the flood of noise to subside before transmitting the command.
Title: Re: Very laggy X10 performance
Post by: Tuicemen on October 14, 2015, 11:56:01 AM
I would suspect the fan it's self or the Arduino power supply ::) :'
I have seen power supplies go noisy and fans also.
 >!
Title: Re: Very laggy X10 performance
Post by: bkenobi on October 14, 2015, 12:06:17 PM
My first thought when I realized it was related to the attic was the PSU, but then I realized that the environment up there gets hotter and colder as well as more humid than inside where these modules are designed to reside.  That said, I assume people in HI might use X10 and they don't even have doors on some structures!  But, it looks like the switch functions just fine when tested without load and even with load it clicks away as expected.  I realized that I never tested with everything plugged in with the RJ11 cable unplugged.  If the Arduino is the culprit, it could be sending garbled commands, right?  But then if that were the case, I should be seeing the PSC04 LED flash on transmit.
Title: Re: Very laggy X10 performance
Post by: Noam on October 14, 2015, 01:05:17 PM
Could it be possible that the PSU is quiet initially, but starts to get noisy the longer it is on? How long did you wait on your PSU test before determining that wasn't the likely culprit?
What did the noise levels on that circuit look like when you removed each component?
Title: Re: Very laggy X10 performance
Post by: bkenobi on October 14, 2015, 02:11:31 PM
My noise was never really an issue when I tested each circuit (breaker).  It appeared that I was at near zero noise when I was at the basement outlet.  When things stopped working, I didn't see all that much noise either.  It seemed to fluctuate between 0.2 and 0.3 (I think it's 1 digit on the XTBM, if not, those are the last digit).

When I was testing in the attic, I didn't see any noise with any configuration, but I was just plugging the module in, waiting a second, then plugging in the XTBM.  Perhaps you are right that it takes a few minutes to kick in when it becomes a problem.  I didn't notice a problem this morning with everything hooked up/plugged in.  Next time I see the issue, I'll try going back to the attic and trying different durations with the PSU et al.
Title: Re: Very laggy X10 performance
Post by: bkenobi on October 14, 2015, 11:59:08 PM
When I got home, everything was working as normal.  I went about my chores and this evening found that the lights didn't work.  When I checked the attic, I found that the PSC04 had it's LED constantly illuminated. I unplugged the PSU and nothing changed.  I put it back and unplugged the PSC04 and the XTBM saw the XTB-IIR again.  I plugged the PSC04 back in and the LED lit up again.  with the PSC04 plugged in, I see 0.27-0.43 noise!  I suspect strongly that I have found the culprit but I don't know why it failed.
Title: Re: Very laggy X10 performance
Post by: Brian H on October 15, 2015, 06:08:47 AM
You may want to disconnect the equipment using the PSC04 to send X10 power line signals.
It could be holding the transmit keying signal enabled.

There is a schematic of the PSC04/PL513 and PSC05/TW523 near the end of the Technical Manual.
http://www.authinx.com/manuals/X10/technicalnote.pdf
Title: Re: Very laggy X10 performance
Post by: bkenobi on October 15, 2015, 01:03:24 PM
The manual didn't help all that much, but I did a quick search on PL513 to see how the LED should act.  It appears that it should be off when not doing anything and turn on ONLY when transmitting (blink on when it transmits).  At this point with nothing connected to it, the PSC04/PL513 turns the led on and it remains solid when I plug it in.  I suspect that it may be stuck in a transmit mode of some kind.  If so, is there any more debugging that could be done to possibly bring it back to life?  I'll go ahead and pop the cover off to see if I see burned traces or an exploded cap or something.  Other thoughts?

If I can't get it working again, my options are to:

It would be quicker, easier, and cheaper to go with a new PSC04 but if it's likely to fail down the road I might as well go with a different solution now.  This setup lasted around 3 years, so it's not all that big a deal to replace at that rate, but I like robust solutions which this may not be.  I like having the Arduino controlling the fan since it's separate from my HA setup and having the fan X10 controlled allows for override situations.
Title: Re: Very laggy X10 performance
Post by: dhouston on October 15, 2015, 03:13:21 PM
If you look at the schematic, the 120kHz oscillator and the LED are essentially operating in parallel so I'd suspect the optocoupler which is common to both.

That said, I do not recall seeing many complaints about PL513/PSC04 failures over the years so I suggest replacing it.
Title: Re: Very laggy X10 performance
Post by: bkenobi on October 16, 2015, 11:06:29 AM
I have 2 on order from ebay so I'll have a backup.  I didn't get a chance to open the faulty one up, but I'll post pictures if there's noticeable damage.  If it's a single faulty component (such as the optocoupler) is that something that can be replaced to put it in the box as a 2nd backup?  Most X10 modules are through-hole so I would think I could replace just about anything except for the logic chip(s).
Title: Re: Very laggy X10 performance
Post by: dhouston on October 16, 2015, 12:36:31 PM
Quote from: bkenobi on October 16, 2015, 11:06:29 AM
If it's a single faulty component (such as the optocoupler) is that something that can be replaced to put it in the box as a 2nd backup? 

Probably - but it's been awhile since I've seen its innards so the optocoupler might be SMD.
Title: Re: Very laggy X10 performance
Post by: bkenobi on October 16, 2015, 01:08:22 PM
I don't have the module with me.  Does anyone know the FCC ID on it?  Perhaps they would have published photos that I could take a look at.  If not, I'll look this evening at the actual module.
Title: Re: Very laggy X10 performance
Post by: Brian H on October 16, 2015, 04:08:45 PM
The PSC04 didn't have any RF transmitter in it.
Most likely will not have an FCC number or file in the FCC database.
Title: Re: Very laggy X10 performance
Post by: bkenobi on October 16, 2015, 04:59:47 PM
Ok, wasn't sure.  I thought any time it transmitted and could have interference it could have an ID.  I'll just look in a couple hours.
Title: Re: Very laggy X10 performance
Post by: bkenobi on October 18, 2015, 05:39:44 PM
Nothing obviously damaged.
Title: Re: Very laggy X10 performance
Post by: dave w on October 18, 2015, 06:22:36 PM
Well, you could always shotgun the electrolytic caps. X10 WTI likely went for cheap parts. Semi conductors, coils, and resistors age pretty well,  'lytics...not so much
Title: Re: Very laggy X10 performance
Post by: bkenobi on October 18, 2015, 06:39:55 PM
I could replace the caps but I wouldn't have thought age would be an issue.  The sticker says 10L51 so the module is 5 years old.  that said, if I could source the caps from the same place to avoid $$ shipping, I'd go ahead and swap them.  My DMM can check capacitance, but I don't know how to check installed caps.
Title: Re: Very laggy X10 performance
Post by: dhouston on October 18, 2015, 06:47:57 PM
The PSC04/PL513 have two 6-pin optocouplers. The one that connects to pins 3 & 4 of the RJ11 connector is the one I suspect.
Title: Re: Very laggy X10 performance
Post by: bkenobi on October 18, 2015, 07:03:50 PM
The optocouplers are easy to replace, so I might as well do both.  Any idea of a source for a compatible unit?  I did a quick search for LTV4N35 but only found data sheets.

EDIT:  I found some on google shopping search but for too much.  $5 each + shipping wouldn't be worth it since I found new modules for $10/ea on ebay.
Title: Re: Very laggy X10 performance
Post by: dhouston on October 18, 2015, 07:37:02 PM
If a new module fixes the problem there's no reason to waste more $$$.
Title: Re: Very laggy X10 performance
Post by: dave w on October 20, 2015, 08:29:19 PM
Quote from: bkenobi on October 18, 2015, 06:39:55 PM
I could replace the caps but I wouldn't have thought age would be an issue. 
I just fixed a Neato vacuum that would lock up when the batteries would get low. The fix was a key 100uf 'lytic. Neato was less than three years old.
Title: Re: Very laggy X10 performance
Post by: bkenobi on October 20, 2015, 08:40:11 PM
I'll hold onto the old one for a rainy day project.  I have a WS467 sitting on the bench it can join.
Title: Re: Very laggy X10 performance
Post by: IPS on October 21, 2015, 04:50:37 AM
I have been having a similar problem with my AHP. I have a V572RF32 which uses PSC04. I thought it is causing a signal jam as its light kept flashing and could not get any remote to work. So I replaced it with XTB523. It worked fine for a while then it all started again. The activity log was recording 3/sec. at least. Changing CM15A didn't do any thing. Been having a long discussion with Warren of BVC. That where I got V572RF32.
Also the phase coupler LEDs were going crazy. It would stop if CM15A was unplugged. After a while even that had no effect. So I realized that noise is not from any AHP module but some other device.
To cut it short, finally located the circuit that was the culprit. Found it by turning one breaker off at a time. Turned the breaker of. Plugged in V572 with PSC04. No flashing LED. But still no control on AHP. So gave up in fraustation.
After few hours just used a iPhone app and it all started to work. Tested with one of HR 12 and it worked too.
So now have to find out what on that particular circuit is the cause of my days of anguish.

Now I'll check out if the V572RF32 is doing what it used to that is range extender and convert security modules like DS10A to switch to use its HC/UC  for macros for garage door alarm and others.


This is my latest tango with AHP in general and PSC04 in particular. And hope all is well.

Title: Re: Very laggy X10 performance
Post by: Brian H on October 21, 2015, 06:16:19 AM
You may want to look at this X10 Wiki entry. Regarding signal firestorms with a CM15A and some X10 coupler repeaters.
http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Known_Issues_with_ActiveHome_Pro
Title: Re: Very laggy X10 performance
Post by: joe s. on October 21, 2015, 10:41:10 AM
A few years back I was changing out my Smarthome 1132CU, for HCA software (which needed either CM11 or CM15 to generate the PLC).  I "unretired" my CM15.  It seemed to work at first but then started signal storming.  I could shut down the storm by power cycling my coupler/repeater (XTB-11R).  Within a couple days it would start the storming again.

So, I gave up on my (very old) CM15 and installed XTB232 (its like a high spec CM11).  I've never had a storm since.
Title: Re: Very laggy X10 performance
Post by: IPS on October 21, 2015, 11:16:36 PM
Brian I am using ACT phase coupler. It has been working for a few years.

Joe I too almost gave up but then all started working after I turned off the breaker. Will post my findings in few days.

Thanks for your response.
Title: Re: Very laggy X10 performance
Post by: Brian H on October 22, 2015, 06:24:01 AM
ACT CP000 passive or CR234 Active coupler repeater?
Title: Re: Very laggy X10 performance
Post by: bkenobi on October 23, 2015, 10:45:37 AM
I received the new PL513 modules a couple days ago and spent a few minutes with them last night.  The peculiar thing is that the original does not seem to cause issues when simply plugged in at this time like it was before.  When I hooked it up last night, the LED stayed lit but so did the new ones.  The old one seemed to degrade the signal strength from the XTB-IIR by 1-2vpp.  Another interesting note was that the new ones (actually several years older and not the pro model) provide a larger signal strength hit by ~1vpp.  I haven't tried using these to verify that they function with the Arduino since that's in the attic.