X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: dspiffy on April 14, 2017, 05:38:12 PM
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In the past, I'd had bad luck using a single dimable LED bulb on a lamp module. Decided to try it again. Worked perfectly on lamp one.
Decided to try it on lamp two. The bulb flickers dramatically even at full brightness. Tried different modules. Tried different bulbs (including the exact same module and bulb as lamp one). Tried a different lamp. Tried a different outlet. Tried running an extension cord to the same outlet as lamp 1 (they are both on the same circuit regardless). Tried disconnecting every other lamp and appliance on the same circuit. Still flickers.
EMS? Voodoo?
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Are the LM465 Lamp Modules all the same type?
Older style where the go on and off instantly?
Soft Start where the ramp on and off over a few seconds?
From all of the tests.
Did you try Lamp 1 with the OK module and LED bulb physically in the Lamp 2 position?
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I moved module 1 to lamp 2. It flickered.
I did not try physically moving lamp 1 to the location of lamp 2 as neither of these lamps can easily be moved without moving furniture.
I tried every lamp module I have not in use. They range from 1980s "PlugnPower" to a year or two old. I even tried wiring a hard wired lamp module (Levitron) into the lamp cord. All of them acted exactly the same.
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Thank you for the added tests.
I wounder if there is some noise on the second lamps outlet.
I have seen some dimmers [X10 and others} reported to flicker with noise and some brand LED bulbs.
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I have unplugged everything else on that circuit. I cant figure where it would be coming from.
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Since you ran an extension cord to the offending lamp with the same bulb and module as lamp 1, I suspect the issue is lamp 2 Maybe the socket wiring is loose in lamp 2 ???
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Lamp has actually been newly rewired, new socket, new cord.
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FYI: I never actually solved this issue. I just changed lamps, bulbs, and modules around so that I do not have a single dimmable LED on a single lamp module.
A single LED seems to work fine on an appliance module.
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I once again had to have a single dimmable LED on a lamp module.
Decided to try the "night light" trick but using an LED night light.
These draw 0.25w:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01H6N5WB0/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
And while they're not dimmable, the dimmer doesnt seem to hurt them, they just stay lit all the way down.
Havent had flickering issues since. It is annoying to have to add another lamp.
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I once again had to have a single dimmable LED on a lamp module.
Decided to try the "night light" trick but using an LED night light. These draw 0.25w: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01H6N5WB0/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Yeah.... the "night light" trick requires an old fashion incandescent 7 watt bulb.
What I have done: Is for the ONE dimmable LED I use (and have rarely dimmed).... I use a Wi-Fi dimmable LED bulb. Problem solved.
But.... also I am of the age that I remember when "dimmable" was HOT. In the late 1950's.... homes built pre-war just weren't up to code as far as (then) modern wiring. So 150 watt bulbs in ceiling fixtures... controlled with a rheostats were really popular. You could turn it up for kids to do their homework using the encyclopedia.... and dim it down for watching the new (12" screen) color TV. Which BTW... had what was called a TV light sitting on top off it. Which provided a low wattage up-light on the wall... to reduce eye strain from the TV screen.
I guess those rheostats really caught on. Because X10 enabled dimming as well. And even though modern homes have plugs everywhere... people still want one big bulb.... they can dim-down... to make useable.
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As I said, it works fine with an LED night light bulb.
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I have a couple of LED 3W candelabra bulbs running on old style lamp modules. They flicker a bit but not bad. One doesn't turn all the way off though; stays lit just a bit when the module is turned off. Doesn't seem to affect the operation at all though.
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I have a couple of LED 3W candelabra bulbs running on old style lamp modules. They flicker a bit but not bad. One doesn't turn all the way off though; stays lit just a bit when the module is turned off.
Since being "lit just a bit when the module is turned off".... isn't a problem... you apparently don't need complete darkness in that area. So... why bother with a lamp module? As the module is using electric at about the same rate as the bulb anyway. Why not let the light run 24/7?
Not many years ago.... the wife and I would need 240-250 watts of lighting for our personal spaces in the evening. Now-a-days main and background lighting combined... we use less than 20 watts. Whereas it made good sense to turn off a sixty watt bulb when not in use.... it is almost overkill to use power-draining modules, hubs, and maybe even a PC to control a 4.5 watt LED.
Just wondering...
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I have a couple of LED 3W candelabra bulbs running on old style lamp modules. They flicker a bit but not bad. One doesn't turn all the way off though; stays lit just a bit when the module is turned off. Doesn't seem to affect the operation at all though.
I had this exact same issue. I discussed it in a separate thread. I found two solutions that worked: 1. Disabling the local control circuit 2. Wiring a neon bulb (the kind used in pilot lights) in parallel. I've also known people to use resistors.
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I have a couple of LED 3W candelabra bulbs running on old style lamp modules. They flicker a bit but not bad. One doesn't turn all the way off though; stays lit just a bit when the module is turned off.
Since being "lit just a bit when the module is turned off".... isn't a problem... you apparently don't need complete darkness in that area. So... why bother with a lamp module? As the module is using electric at about the same rate as the bulb anyway. Why not let the light run 24/7?
Not many years ago.... the wife and I would need 240-250 watts of lighting for our personal spaces in the evening. Now-a-days main and background lighting combined... we use less than 20 watts. Whereas it made good sense to turn off a sixty watt bulb when not in use.... it is almost overkill to use power-draining modules, hubs, and maybe even a PC to control a 4.5 watt LED.
Just wondering...
Because sometimes you dont want light on all the time. Either because sleeping, or watching movies, or ambiance, or not being home, or whatever.
I've tested a few different controllers. The thirstiest ones draw around 8 watts constantly. Most are around 1-2 watts. MOST LED bulbs are still greater than 5 watts, so there is a minor savings.
I am amused by the irony that I am using controllers that draw a watt or two to operate 0.8w and 0.25w LED bulbs.
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I've tested a few different controllers. The thirstiest ones draw around 8 watts constantly. Most are around 1-2 watts. MOST LED bulbs are still greater than 5 watts, so there is a minor savings.
What controllers? How did you test them?
Long ago I tested several X10 devices including the LM465, CM11A, CM15A and none draw as much as you state. See...
https://www.laser.com/dhouston/x10-sig.html (https://www.laser.com/dhouston/x10-sig.html)
Scroll down to X10 Module Phantom Power at the bottom of the page.
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I've tested a few different controllers. The thirstiest ones draw around 8 watts constantly. Most are around 1-2 watts. MOST LED bulbs are still greater than 5 watts, so there is a minor savings.
What controllers? How did you test them?
Long ago I tested several X10 devices including the LM465, CM11A, CM15A and none draw as much as you state. See...
https://www.laser.com/dhouston/x10-sig.html (https://www.laser.com/dhouston/x10-sig.html)
Scroll down to X10 Module Phantom Power at the bottom of the page.
Everything from Casablanca InteliTouch to motion sensors from outside lights to photocells . . . basically anything in my house that electronically controls a light. I wired each device into an amp meter and tested the current draw with the lights on and lights off.
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Everything from Casablanca InteliTouch to motion sensors from outside lights to photocells . . . basically anything in my house that electronically controls a light. I wired each device into an amp meter and tested the current draw with the lights on and lights off.
That overestimates the wattage. You are measuring Volt-Amps. The Kill-a-Watt (and others) sample the voltage and current 4000 (or more) times per second and then average them to get an accurate measure of watts.
Here's a brief tutorial on the subject.
http://www.electronicdesign.com/energy/what-s-difference-between-watts-and-volt-amperes (http://www.electronicdesign.com/energy/what-s-difference-between-watts-and-volt-amperes)
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Everything from Casablanca InteliTouch to motion sensors from outside lights to photocells . . . basically anything in my house that electronically controls a light. I wired each device into an amp meter and tested the current draw with the lights on and lights off.
That overestimates the wattage. You are measuring Volt-Amps. The Kill-a-Watt (and others) sample the voltage and current 4000 (or more) times per second and then average them to get an accurate measure of watts.
Here's a brief tutorial on the subject.
http://www.electronicdesign.com/energy/what-s-difference-between-watts-and-volt-amperes (http://www.electronicdesign.com/energy/what-s-difference-between-watts-and-volt-amperes)
For most of the work that I do, I need amps, not watts, so I'm fine with simply multiplying by 120-- it's "close enough for jazz" as one of my mentors would say.
Still, I would be curious to determine the difference, especially in these tiny lighting circuits.
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For most of the work that I do, I need amps, not watts, so I'm fine with simply multiplying by 120-- it's "close enough for jazz" as one of my mentors would say.
Still, I would be curious to determine the difference, especially in these tiny lighting circuits.
Most of us pay our electric company for watts so understanding the difference between watts and volt-amps helps understand our electric bills and informs our opinions on the things discussed here.
And, these tiny lighting circuits can add some further complications as most only draw current for a small percentage of each cycle (60Hz) of the powerline.
The tutorial is brief and enlightening*. (*pun intended)
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For most of the work that I do, I need amps, not watts, so I'm fine with simply multiplying by 120-- it's "close enough for jazz" as one of my mentors would say.
The phase angle between the applied AC waveform and the current drawn is important. If you take a simple line-rated capacitor - say 1uF - and put it directly across the AC powerline, you would measure about .045 amp, or a little over 5 watts with your simple formula. But the capacitor doesn't heat up significantly, as it should if it were actually consuming 5 watts. This is because the current and voltage are out of phase, and no "real" power is consumed. Most X10 and other automation modules use a dropping capacitor in their transformerless power supplies, and a simple current measurement would not be accurate.
Jeff
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Different but similar is the outside transformers for low voltage lighting. I found that they draw considerable wattage on a Kill-A-Watt all day while the lights are off. The transformer is powered with 110 to keep the clock and/or photocells powered. Only the low voltage output is switched and the increased power usage isn't that much different unless you have a lot of incandescent lamps in place. I switched all of those to LED also, so I wasn't using much power there.
I ended up putting in a photocell to control the outlet the transformer is plugged into so that the transformer is now off during daylight.
Now that I have AHP working again, I may try an appliance module or X-10 outlet to control power to the transformer.
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For ****s and giggles, I got a Kill A Watt. Here is what I've tested so far.
LED PAR bulb: 0.7a, 7w.
LED candelabra bulb: 0.3a, 3w.
Flicker Flame bulb: 0.1a, ~1w. Sometimes it doesnt even read the wattage.
X10 lamp module with LED candelabra bulb: 0.3a whether on or off. 3w whether on or off.
X10 lamp module with LED PAR bulb: 0.7a on, 0.3a off. 7w on, 0.3w off.
LED night light bulb: 0a, 0w. I DID get a current draw on these with my conventional amp meter. Dont remember what it was but it was tiny.
USB phone charger: 0w with no phone plugged in, 1.5w with a phone plugged in. I forgot to measure amps.
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You may also want to look at the Power Factor.
I have seen some LED bulbs around the 0.50 PF.
That would explain why your conventional meter may read differently.