X10 Community Forum
💬General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: HA Dave on October 23, 2019, 10:42:43 AM
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Who's doing what with Geofencing?
I have a Nest thermostat and it uses geofencing mixed with an internal motion sensor to determine if anyone is home... and sets heat/AC accordingly.
But that's it! Such a wonderfully intuitive insightful part of AI tech... and I am barely using it at all. WORSE... geofencing is hardly mentioned here.
Now... my latest iphone update included an ability to better use the technology (interfaced with my phone to my home automation). Of course (being retired) I don't have a workplace to arrive at (or leave). Which would make a great excuse to not use geofencing. But I am not really looking for a 2nd class automation set-up.... with great excuses.
I need ideas and tips on how others with great setups are using their phones and geofencing in their setups.
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If you are primarily concerned with automation, then geofencing your heating system sounds like a fun project. But, if you are using a modern HVAC system including a heat pump, you might want to consider that setting your system to a single level *MAY* be more efficient than changing the temperature significantly (more than 3-4°F). Heat pumps are great at maintaining a temperature and are very efficient at doing so (some are over 97% efficient these days). But, when they have to recover more than ~2°F, they use a lot more energy than they would maintaining a single temperature. Yes, there are a lot of variables, but something to consider.
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If you are primarily concerned with automation, then geofencing your heating system sounds like a fun project..................
........ there are a lot of variables, but something to consider.
Not a project. The old Nest thermostats have been around YEARS... (with the 1st generation being released in 2011). I've been using the 3rd Gen model for about a year.... and the saving has more than paid for the cost of the unit (which my power supplier reimbursed most of anyway). But thanks for your warning/feedback.
What I am really looking for are other peoples uses of geofencing. It's a wonderful technology. Unfortunately... advanced tech is only as good as the imagination of it's users. And... apparently my own imagination is failing to provide me with the inspiration I need. These forums have always (historically) been brimming with creative uses for the available products.
There are MANY different type users of HA. They're all good. I particularly enjoy building my system (almost as much as using it). I am ALWAYS looking for ways to expand my Home Automation Setup.
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I was only pointing out that with certain types of heating systems, it can be both bad for the efficiency and comfort of the home as well as create added maintenance to the system. I'm not an environmental engineer nor HVAC installer, so I only have the information that installers gave me (usually personal systems and maintenance of customers). There are certainly different regions of the country/world that may have different conditions which would lead to different results.
The example that I was provided was that keeping the heat at 60°F when away and then bumping it up to 72°F when you get home will lead to a large demand on the system. Furniture, floors, etc will feel cold and provide for a less comfortable environment even if the air inside does reach the set point on schedule. Since heat pump systems are really good at maintaining a temperature but not so good at recovering (often requiring the auxiliary heating system to be engaged (either straight electric coils or a gas burner, both of which are far inferior efficiency-wise), the savings over ~8 hours of lower temperature is lost in the recovery heating as well as adding to the maintenance on both the primary (HP) and auxiliary (coils, burner) systems.
I do personally drop the temperature while at work and at night but I don't see much difference unless it gets very cold (rarely in the Seattle area). The difference in daily cost for electricity for weekdays versus weekends is essentially zero during spring and fall. In summer the system is turned off completely. In winter, we see a noticeable difference when the temperature drops below the HP protection temperature (25°F for our system) and to a lesser degree below the hybrid threshold (40°F for my system). But, the temperature during the day doesn't run often because the lower set point and being the warmest part of the day. The primary benefit we see is less cycles of the HP during fall/spring which should show reduced maintenance over the long run.
All of that said, geofencing is something that is a very interesting technology that would be great for automating alarm system activation, changing lighting modes, modifying aural annunciations to occupants, etc. I would be hesitant to use occupancy as a means to automate the heating system which would be better run via a schedule and some form of weather link. It would be even better if it could change based on predictive weather, but that's a whole other type of logic that would be difficult to implement. I've looked into doing it and don't think the sensors, HVAC hardware, and logic would be easily configured to improve efficiency and/or occupant comfort.
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I was only pointing out that with certain types of heating systems.......
Yeah.... I understand your intent was to be helpful. And I thank you for that. But Nest is well established... with a mature product, and MILLIONS sold and in use.
geofencing is something that is a very interesting technology that would be great for automating alarm system activation, changing lighting modes, modifying aural annunciations to occupants, etc.
There isn't anything "would be" about geofencing. Like I mentioned in the OP.... even my iphone now has a built-in app to help users with their geofencing. And yes... it can be used for alarm system activation, and/or modifying annunciations to occupants. I don't know what "changing lighting modes" would even mean. The alarm systems have long been worked-out here. And whereas "annunciations" sounds interesting.... what would be announced... when... and to whom?
I would be hesitant to use occupancy as a means to automate the heating system .......It would be even better if it could change based on predictive weather, but that's a whole other type of logic that would be difficult to implement.
Actually.... AGAIN... Nest is a mature tech that works flawlessly (nothing to fear there).... and BTW it does use weather predictive tech as well. But I thought everyone already knew about these modern thermostats.
Is anyone actually using geofencing?
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You have some interesting takes on my posts. I compose a detailed message describing certain situations where a geofencing system would not be beneficial (and I stand by my statement) but you focus on the use of "would" or "could" as a way to cast doubt on something you feel is an established technology (whether it is or isn't). Nest has been around for a long time which is why Google purchased them. Just because a company has been around a long time doesn't mean they are necessarily the best approach to a system. I mean, you could use a stick to start a fire and if Amazon sold it that doesn't mean it's the best option.
https://www.amazon.com/PSKOOK-Primitive-Survival-Practice-Generation/dp/B07547TJPD
I'm pretty sure that can be ordered by talking to Alexa, so maybe it is the best way afterall. :'
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I've thought about different ways to implement geofencing into my automation setup. Though never played with it at all. To me it is an expansion on occupancy sensing or lack of. The radius area is just larger. I did play with occupancy sensing with bluetooth and BlueWatch but geofencing seems the better way to go.
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HG has some occupancy sensing implemented through WiFi I think (may be Bluetooth). I never played with it, but other HG users commented that they were able to get it working. Seems like a good approach though if you had a GPS based fencing it would also be another way should you have a way to link it to your HA system when out of WiFi range. If your automations are all Alexa based, then it would be taken care of already.
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.....I did play with occupancy sensing with bluetooth and BlueWatch
You did excellent work with those programs. You were ahead of the phone/app/device curve.
but geofencing seems the better way to go.
Geofencing works. Who knows how many thousands of tech savvy hours and millions of dollars have been poured into today's geofencing. I just wish I could think of more ways to better exploit this tech.
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........ if you had a GPS based fencing it would also be another way should you have a way to link it to your HA system when out of WiFi range. If your automations are all Alexa based, then it would be taken care of already.
Very little of my setup is "Alexa based" (I think 2 devices... one of which is a electric candle I converted to plug-in). Alexa serves as integrator of my varied collection of different flavors of devices. Even my iphone now has a built-in app to help the device communicate with each other.
So yes.... everything is pretty much "taken care of already". The only problem is figuring out what to do... not so much how to do it.
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You have some interesting takes on my posts. I compose a detailed message....... but you focus on the use of "would" or "could"
My God you're sensitive.
Your posts may have had enormous theoretical wisdom. I'll gladly give you that. But I am not working in theory. I am using accepted off-the-shelf technology. They work, I like them, MILLIONS of other users like the products. You may wish till wait till several years after you die... before you try today's tech. But I prefer to enjoy Home Automation... now.
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.....I did play with occupancy sensing with bluetooth and BlueWatch
You did excellent work with those programs. You were ahead of the phone/app/device curve.
Thanks Dave, that all came about from suggestions and ideas from you and others put forth on this forum.
The problem for me with geofencing is not a factor of it working but more I need to carry my phone everywhere. 90% of the time I never take my cell phone or any electronic device with me. And even if I did I have no data plan so I'd be limited to wi-fi which would have limits though better then bluetooth.
Basicaly anything users had/have setup with occupancy sensing could be reconfigured to geofencing. With that in mind it may be worth a new read of the old occupancy sensing posts. Some of the suggestions put forth back then, that weren't possible then, now are. ;)
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My posts are to the forum community most of the time. In this case I was stating that your specific setup might work for you but if others want to replicate they should consider the specifics of their own heating system.
Of course in general, ones goals are what determine whether HA is appropriate. Some people think HA can be used to increase efficiency/save money on heating/lighting/etc costs. That may be true given the right setup. Others just want a gee wiz factor to impress others of how clever they are. Well, that works too but the two probably won't mesh in all/many situations. In the case of heating systems, it might work well for people with baseboard heaters or ductless heat pumps since those are very localized and a geofencing setup in which the system heats the room with occupants is very possible and would certainly increase comfort as well as reducing costs. Yes, Nest is purported to have this capability should the home owner invest in enough units to make sufficient zones.
However, my post was pointing out that HVAC systems that are already high efficiency will not likely benefit from such a setup and could actually cause reduced efficiency and added maintenance. If pointing out potential pitfalls that could cost unknowing HA connoisseurs thousands of dollars of real money is sensitive, well, ok. I don't consider this theory since it is known in industry, just helpful advice. I can find my tin foil hat before I speak about "sensitive theoretical" diatribe in the future. It won't hurt my feelings at all.
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My posts are to the forum community most of the time. In this case I was stating that your specific setup might work for you but if others want to replicate they should consider the specifics of their own heating system.
..........However, my post was pointing out that HVAC systems that are already high efficiency will not likely benefit from such a setup and could actually cause reduced efficiency and added maintenance. ......
Luckily.... the good people at Nest and/or google had already considered such possibilities and allowed for such things in their setup. My cheap-to-use high efficiency heating system is now saving even more bucks. And the AC is (of course) saving money too. Your guesstimate of how these units are constructed may be needlessly worrisome.
BUT.... let us NOT forget. This thread is about Geofencing!
Unless your intention is to disrupt any technology you don't use or understand lets get back to the subject at hand. Are any of.... what is left of this once vibrant and creative membership..... using geofencing? And do they/you have any ideas for routine/macro/programs/robots.... or whatever name is being used by whatever app. Particularly (I'd guess) is any iphone users using that new automation app that was included in the new update?
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....The problem for me with geofencing is not a factor of it working but more I need to carry my phone everywhere. 90% of the time I never take my cell phone or any electronic device with me....
I understand..... and respect that. Lot's of people are NOT phone/device centric. I am a bit of a phone convert myself. But now (no joke) seriously considering complete-TOTAL conversion when I upgrade to the latest iphone. I think I can get a phone to replace my laptop (which replaced the desktop). Although.... I may... if need be... buy an ipad.
I've become very attached to my iphone and it's MANY apps. It tracks and preserves my diet, my exercise, and appointments. It connects me with everything and everyone important to me (and me to them). I know.... this by-the-month rental-technology is a bit of a negative as far as lifestyle "theory" is concerned. But the technology and it's advantages are far too beneficial and meaningful to me.... for me... to pass-up.
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My phone(at least at my off grid place) has already replaced my desttop (mini pc) and laptops. However i still have a pi or two running controlling my HA setup.
The fact that I dont always carry my phone or an electronic device is not because I don't want to but more that I find it cumbersome. I use to consider myself an early adopter but having to carry something extra all the time in my pocket is more then I can seem to remember to do.
There are new fitbits and watches out there not which comunicate directly with Amazon Alexa. Maybe I'll get something like that from Santa (hint hint , Santa) rofl possibly in the new year I'll be exploring this geofencing more.
I have two places which are automated and have Alexa enabled devices all ready incorporated as well as HomeGenie running.
My HA season is fast approching so I may experiment with geofencing and HG soon.
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Unless you forgot my original post which was scorned heavily, I did point out that geofencing is a very interesting technology for the right application (alarm systems, advanced lighting scenarios, etc). If suggesting that people consider if automating one of their most expensive systems in their home (potentially) is a good idea and that hurts your ego, then I'm truly sorry. I understand that your approach to automation is very different than mine. I like to make sure things will work together before I construct a Frankenstein of gadgets and do-dads that will require endless tinkering to work correctly. I also tend to build my own automation devices rather than simply paying Apple, Google, or Amazon to tell me what I should have and then let them have a key to my home while they're at it. This apparently means that I am not an enthusiast in your eyes and I'm ok with that. I have lots of hobbies and choose how to make each work for me. HA may be in a golden age of paying someone else to tell you what your setup should look like, but it's also prime for constructing your own system however you see fit. ESP, Arduino, Android, etc all can do so much compared to simple AHP and X10 components of the past. There is no need to use the mega company products unless you want to. But, if you do want to, cool!
So, to get back to geofencing which is where I left it in my original post...lots of possibilities but not always heating systems. That's all.
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I like bkenobi wouldn't use geofencing for heating or cooling. I'm either here or not my thermostate has a built in timer function. If I were to go shopping for 1-2 hours I don't see the benifit of it being set back.
Other things like making sure the garage door was closed or doors locked would be more worrisome.
I have to admit Ive not looked into geofencing much and other then going to my off grid place I seldom go anywhere else for a great length of time now. Although I may go to the off grid place for a good length of time my wife does not.
So like Dave I also am interested in ideas for this new tech to implement into HA. I'm sure much of it will be of no use to me, but who knows ::) :'
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I like bkenobi wouldn't use geofencing for heating or cooling. I'm either here or not my thermostate has a built in timer function. If I were to go shopping for 1-2 hours I don't see the benifit of it being set back......
I don't think it would set-back for a mere outing (don't forget geofencing isn't just occupancy sensing.... geofencing knows where your at). And it also knows where the house/cabin is at and what the weather conditions are. PLUS it knows what your heating system is... and it builds a (cloud-based) library of performance and run times. It is really VERY sophisticated. It won't save you money all in one day. It saves the same way the HVAC costs.... nickles and dimes. It all adds up.
But I have no dog in that race. The MILLIONS of satisfied customers (and Google money) pretty much secures it immediate future success. So.....
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....... I also am interested in ideas for this new tech to implement into HA. I'm sure much of it will be of no use to me, but who knows ::) :'
Don't forget this is an iphone app that is asking to help integrate HA with it's geo-location (Apple uses a phone-tower version of location). I am not even sure just how far this can be taken.
Turning lights off and on.... or even setting your heat-AC back to save money.... playing your favorite music when you return home..... is all kind'a old-hat. I only WISH I could come up with something new, creative, or innovate.
There are a few posts (I believe) that deal with widow treatment automation. The wife and I are thinking of new (cordless) blinds this winter. I've already thought of looking in that direction for a new project. That could also incorporate automation... with location.
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My Honeywell thermostat knows the current temperature and knows how long it takes to heat up based on inside and outside temperatures. It will use the electric strip to supplement the HP when it is on the colder side and the HP won't be able to fully provide the needed heat. It will use only electric strip when it is too cold and the HP could be damaged from running. All of these things gs are done by programming of the unit or it learning the system over time. I have no problem with learning systems as they can be a great way to improve comfort etc. I get that Nest provides these in a different way, but other than knowing it will be getting g cold so bump up the heat preemptively, there's not much a good quality thermostat can't do even without the cloud.
I almost bought a nest a few years ago, but it has some drawbacks.
1) I only have 1 zone and am only HVAC so I can't easily utilize occupancy detection any better than my current setup
2) Nest won't work with my HP system. I called to find a compatible model, but there are none. IIRC, it was the combination of variable speed blower, HP, and electric aux heat elements.
I've read about some people using geofencing type control to have the heat turn up when they are on the way to a cabin that has been winterized. I presume that would be easy enough to do if you were using navigation. If so, it could see your destination and start heating with enough time to be toasty (or AC I suppose) before your key hit the door. Now that would be a great use of geofencing + heating/AC!
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Geofencing is pretty cool. I am using Life360 with Homeseer along with the PH Location plug-in. Begrudgingly my wife turns the AC to a higher temp when she goes out for the day. But I use various locations to determine when she's headed back while not pinpointing her. When she hits a circle closer to home, the A/C gets turned back to frigid. One hour out, not worth adjusting, but two or more hours and it's a savings for sure.
Using the same plug-in, my wife gets a text when I get to Home Depot. I'm not so sure I'm going to keep that event active. ;D
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Geofencing is pretty cool........... two or more hours and it's a savings for sure.
I am retired... and I'd go nuts sitting around the house. So during cycling season I can be gone several hours at a time. Or other errands and interests could keep me gone for just a few minutes here and there. The Nest setup may not be perfect... but it seems to be perfectly reliable (with my HVAC) and kept the wife and I comfortable while saving us money.
But I am thinking more and more.... automated blinds mixed with the same control that works the heat/AC could shield the house from solar heat build-up in summer.... and exploit the suns heat in winter. Or maybe just let in the sun if I sleep too late....
my wife gets a text when I get to Home Depot. I'm not so sure I'm going to keep that event active. ;D
I've thought about "reminder texts" based on store/event/ location. Where I could (I believe) enter a reminder to stop at any particular store when in the area... and purchase whatever. I am not sure my gray-matter reminder system has enough of a failure rate to duplicate it's function. Or... at least I don't remember forgetting.
Thanks for your input racerfern. I sometimes feel kind'a alone with some of this automation stuff. Or better put.... restrictions put on automation.