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🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: Novaguy on April 13, 2006, 11:58:58 PM

Title: New Guy Need Help
Post by: Novaguy on April 13, 2006, 11:58:58 PM
Hello Everyone,

I have a vacation home that has an alarm system with and x10 controller.  I have it hooped up to an appliance module which turns the a/c-heater on via telephone.  I have a problem with the unit working intermittenly and now it seems like it does not work at all.  I have to manually turn the on/off switch on the module itself in order for it to work.  I am at my wits.  I replaced the module, added a boosterlinc and still nothing.  The module is plugged in a recepticle that also has my refrigerator on the other outlet.  I hav unplugged everything in my house and still nothing.  Where do I begin?  It's obvious that the signal is not getting through to the appliance module.  Getting this thing to work properly would be awesome.


Thank you all for your help.
Title: Re: New Guy Need Help
Post by: steven r on April 14, 2006, 11:10:13 AM
My general approach for intermittent signal problems is in this order:


I have both a phase coupler and a signal booster. I've been lucky so for not to need any filters. (Let's hope Murphy isn't listening as you have to add one of those for each offending item.) Surge protectors and UPSs (I have 6 of these in use plus 1 as a standby in addition to a whole house protector.) take out the some of the X10 signal and some appliances add noise to the line that may mask the X10 signal. Added noise can be intermittent. eg. When that nearby refrigerator cycles.

I started using X10 products back before personal computers and the internet were around. I continue to consider them to be a great value but as you add more options there are more ways for "Murphy to Play". The more you get involved with it the more you realize it's not for the faint at heart.

Title: Re: New Guy Need Help
Post by: Novaguy on April 14, 2006, 11:35:58 AM
Thanks for the reply.  I just don't know if I should keep dumping money into this as it seems like the only way to troubleshoot is to keep buying parts until it either works or doesn't.  By that time, I could have just bought a system specifically designed for what I want to do and spent less money.  In reading, I think the next thing I would need to buy would be a coupler/repeater.  That's another $100.  You see what I mean.....where does it end?
Title: Re: New Guy Need Help
Post by: dave w on April 14, 2006, 12:23:05 PM
Novaguy

Is this correct:
1. At one time you could control the module controlling your HVAC with your telephone (X10 Telephone Responder?) Now you can't

2. You have replaced the appliance module and it still does not work.

You said: "I have to manually turn the on/off switch on the module itself in order for it to work"
How big is the cabin?
What appliance module are you using that has an ON-OFF switch?
How are you controlling your "a/c- heater with an appliance module?
Have you added any electronics in the cabin since that time that the system worked?
Can you plug the BoosterLinc and Telephone responder into the same branch circuit as the appliance module? If this isn't possible, at least get the Boosterlinc and the Telephone responder on the same circuit.
If you "unplugged everything in my house and still nothing" then it likely isn't a noise problem unless it is coming from a 240V appliance, or something new that is hard wired. If it isn't noise then a coupler / amplifier should help. You might also try the Smarthome signal level meter. It WILL tell you if it is noise and help you pinpoint the source.
GL


Title: Re: New Guy Need Help
Post by: Tuicemen on April 14, 2006, 12:26:24 PM
Quote from: Novaguy on April 14, 2006, 11:35:58 AM
Thanks for the reply.  I just don't know if I should keep dumping money into this as it seems like the only way to troubleshoot is to keep buying parts until it either works or doesn't.  By that time, I could have just bought a system specifically designed for what I want to do and spent less money.  In reading, I think the next thing I would need to buy would be a coupler/repeater.  That's another $100.  You see what I mean.....where does it end?
You shouldn't need a coupler /repeater for a vaction home. Refrigerators Are to be on there own  recepticle with nothing else same as a microwave oven, puting the module on the same recepticle is asking for problems as you've seen.
Title: Re: New Guy Need Help
Post by: Novaguy on April 14, 2006, 07:34:37 PM
Thanks again for the replies.  My alarm company set this system up so I will try and do my best to answer your questions.  They have come out numerous times and have never fixed the problem.  I am fed up with them and have since taken the job on myself.

The module I am using is I believe a universal module.  It has two screws on it for contact wires and an on/off button to manually control whatever it is wired to (in my case a thermostat).(http://www.smarthome.com/images/2010big.jpg)

It looks a lot like this one, however, I don't think it has the two sliders on the bottom, but I could be mistaken.  This module is plugged into an outlet, which happens to also be shared with my refrigerator.  The system has always worked intermittently and now it just does not work at all.  In an effort to find the problem, the alarm company that installed it has replaced the module several times, and I have purchased a boosterlinc from Smarthome.  The alarm company has also replaced and upgraded my alarm panel.

Quote
How big is the cabin?

1200-1500 sq. ft.

Quote
How are you controlling your "a/c- heater with an appliance module?

It's a universal module, so when the system is not working, I turn the mudule on, then manually turn on/off the thermostat.

Quote
Have you added any electronics in the cabin since that time that the system worked?

No, as a matter of fact, I have unplugged all the appliances and still nothing.

Quote
Can you plug the BoosterLinc and Telephone responder into the same branch circuit as the appliance module? If this isn't possible, at least get the Boosterlinc and the Telephone responder on the same circuit.

Don't understand what you mean.

Quote
If you "unplugged everything in my house and still nothing" then it likely isn't a noise problem unless it is coming from a 240V appliance, or something new that is hard wired. If it isn't noise then a coupler / amplifier should help. You might also try the Smarthome signal level meter. It WILL tell you if it is noise and help you pinpoint the source.

I just purchased a coupler/repeater and plan on getting it installed this weekend.  I will post the results.
Title: Re: New Guy Need Help
Post by: Novaguy on April 14, 2006, 07:41:51 PM
Quote
You shouldn't need a coupler /repeater for a vaction home

How come?  What is the difference between a vacation home and primary residence?
Title: Re: New Guy Need Help
Post by: Tuicemen on April 14, 2006, 08:14:12 PM
I was asuming it was a small place I guess not  :-[  In any case you shouldn't have it pluged into the same outlet as the refrigerator. Can you move it to another outlet?If the outlet is wired so it has a different fuse/breaker for each plug then that shouldn't be a problem.
Title: Re: New Guy Need Help
Post by: roger1818 on April 15, 2006, 01:01:30 AM
Quote from: Novaguy on April 14, 2006, 07:34:37 PM
Quote
How big is the cabin?

1200-1500 sq. ft.

That is small enough that a coupler/repeater is overkill.  A passive coupler should be more than adequate which I do highly reccomend.  A coupler/repeater probably won't do you any harm if you don't mind the cost.

The first thing I would do is unplug the BoosterLinc.  One thing that most people don't know is that in many cases they can actually make the problem worse.  There are certain places where they are useful, but in most cases they are useless!
Title: Re: New Guy Need Help
Post by: dave w on April 18, 2006, 01:00:43 PM
Quote
Can you plug the BoosterLinc and Telephone responder into the same branch circuit as the appliance module? If this isn't possible, at least get the Boosterlinc and the Telephone responder on the same circuit.


Don't understand what you mean.

Novaguy
I meant to get the Boosterlinc on the same circuit as the device you are using to send X10 control by the telephone. I assumed you were using the X10 "Telephone Responder" to answer your phone call to turn ON or OFF the X10 Universal module.  Having the Boosterlinc and the telephone controller on the same circuits would ensure the telephone control signal gets amplified (at least on one side of the incoming power). If you are getting a repeater / coupler (which will amplify the telephone controller on BOTH side of the incoming power) it should solve your problem.

Once your repeater is operational, unplug the Boosterlinc, otherwise the repeater and the Boosterlinc may be at war with each other.

Refrigerators and microwaves are on dedicated outlets because of the current they draw which has nothing to do with the problems you are having. If your problem is created by interferirng noise from the refridgerator, moving the Universal module to a seperate outlet isn't going to solve the intermitent response problem unless it puts the Unversal module and the telephone controller electrically closer togeather, or more specifically on the same 120V leg of the incomming power. The new repeater/coupler may do just that because it amplifies the X10 signal on the originating 120v leg and couples it to the opposite 120v leg.

GL




Title: Re: New Guy Need Help
Post by: Novaguy on May 15, 2006, 10:39:28 PM
OK,

first off, thank you all who have replied.  I have since installed my coupler/repeater and I am still having the same problem.  That makes this project well over $250 and I still do not have any success.  I have tried everything that was recommmended on here, with no change in status.  It apprears that the alarm system is sending out the signal, because when I push the test button on the coupler repeater it blinks and goes steady when I send the signal.  The universal module is working manually, but I don't believe it is receiving the signal.  Could it be a faulty module that allows it to work manually and not receive signals?  I am at my witts with this sytem and I don't want to spend another dime.  What should I do next?
Title: Re: New Guy Need Help
Post by: billy on May 15, 2006, 11:43:51 PM
Novaguy,

Could you please give us a list of all the X10 components in your system with the model #'s?  Also the addresses (House Code - Unit Code) of each module.
Title: Re: New Guy Need Help
Post by: Novaguy on May 16, 2006, 12:47:24 AM
Billy,

http://www.aesecurity.com/lynx.htm  This is my alarm system.  It's an ademco Lynx and the module is the one I posted above.  The house code is on 1A
Title: Re: New Guy Need Help
Post by: billy on May 16, 2006, 09:58:47 AM
Novaguy,

How far away is the 1361X10 Transformer/X10 Interface away from the Universal Module?
(Removed Piic)
As a test you may want to try and move the Universal Module to the same outlet as the Transformer.
This would eliminate any house wiring problems and validate that the units still function correctly.
Might have to use a short extension cord.

 
 
Title: Re: New Guy Need Help
Post by: roger1818 on May 16, 2006, 10:09:49 AM
Quote from: Novaguy on May 15, 2006, 10:39:28 PM
I have since installed my coupler/repeater and I am still having the same problem.  That makes this project well over $250 and I still do not have any success.  I have tried everything that was recommmended on here, with no change in status.  It apprears that the alarm system is sending out the signal, because when I push the test button on the coupler repeater it blinks and goes steady when I send the signal.  The universal module is working manually, but I don't believe it is receiving the signal.  Could it be a faulty module that allows it to work manually and not receive signals?  I am at my witts with this sytem and I don't want to spend another dime.  What should I do next?

The first thing I would do is double check that the Coupler/Repeater is connected to both phases (breakers beside each other aren't necessarily on opposite phases).  You can do this by connecting an AC volt meter across the two breakers; if you measure something close to 220V they are on opposite phases.

Secondly I would temporarily move the module closer (electrically) to the "X10 Interface" (preferably on the other plug in the duplex) and test if it works.  If it does, you have a problem with powerline noise (http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Noise,_Noise_Filters_and_Automatic_Gain_Control).  For further help debugging the problem, check out a Troubleshooting guide (http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Troubleshooting_X10_Home_Automation) that I am writting (it is still under development).
Title: Re: New Guy Need Help
Post by: Novaguy on May 16, 2006, 11:29:25 AM
The module is approximately 15' from the controller.  As far as the coupler/repeater being installed, I installed it like it was shown on the diagram from leviton.  Two breakers side by side.  Is there another way I am suppose to install it?  Like I said, I tested the coupler repeater and it was working properly (it was receiving x10 signals). ??? ??? ???
Title: Re: New Guy Need Help
Post by: roger1818 on May 16, 2006, 12:15:23 PM
Quote from: Novaguy on May 16, 2006, 11:29:25 AM
The module is approximately 15' from the controller.  As far as the coupler/repeater being installed, I installed it like it was shown on the diagram from leviton.  Two breakers side by side.  Is there another way I am suppose to install it?  Like I said, I tested the coupler repeater and it was working properly (it was receiving x10 signals).

You have to be careful that they are really separate breakers and not have it connected to connections on the same "double" breaker.  If you do wire it this way, it will appear to work, it just won't couple the phases.

I have extracted the following quote from Phil Kingery's Which One Should I Use - Part IV (http://www.act-solutions.com/kingery04.htm)

Quote from: Phil Kingery
Don’t make the mistake that is often made by DIY’ers and even some electricians. They wire the double-breakers as shown in Figure 7 which causes the passive coupler to be wired from one leg and then right back to the same leg. That doesn’t help much. Instead, the passive coupler needs to be wired as shown in Figure 8.

(http://www.act-solutions.com/images/hti807.jpg)(http://www.act-solutions.com/images/hti808.jpg)

Phil doesn't show this in his diagram, but properly the two breakers should be tied together so that they will both turn on and off together.
Title: Re: New Guy Need Help
Post by: Novaguy on May 16, 2006, 03:53:24 PM
Good news...I just got a call from my alarm company who said the system is now working flawless.  The alram wasn't programmed correctly.  However, I am curious if the electrician wired my coupler/repeater properly.  Here is what he did.  1 dual pole 20 amp breaker.  One hot to one and one hot to the other, neutral to neutral.  The directions called for two seperate 15amp breakers, however, this is what I got.  Is it wrong?  Remeber this is my vacation home, so I can't just go and check on things right away.  I will probably be out there again in several weeks.
Title: Re: New Guy Need Help
Post by: roger1818 on May 16, 2006, 04:13:26 PM
Quote from: Novaguy on May 16, 2006, 03:53:24 PM
Good news...I just got a call from my alarm company who said the system is now working flawless.  The alarm wasn't programmed correctly. 

That is good news

Quote
However, I am curious if the electrician wired my coupler/repeater properly.  Here is what he did.  1 dual pole 20 amp breaker.  One hot to one and one hot to the other, neutral to neutral.  The directions called for two separate 15amp breakers, however, this is what I got.  Is it wrong?  Remember this is my vacation home, so I can't just go and check on things right away.  I will probably be out there again in several weeks.

Dual breakers are typically (always?) on the same phase so if he connected the two hot wires to the same breaker module then he wired it incorrectly.  To bad they don't put a status light on the C/R to indicate that it has been wired across the phases correctly.
Title: Re: New Guy Need Help
Post by: Novaguy on May 16, 2006, 08:37:05 PM
Roger,

Sorry if I am asking dumb questions.  I want to thank you in advance for answering my questions.  Do I need to buy seperate breakers and put them on oppisite sides of each other?  I'm a litlle confused ??? ???  The directions just said 2 seperate 15 amp breakers and hot to each one.  On the diagram it showed them right next to each other vertically, so I figured it was ok to use a double breaker.  I know my system is working now, however, I do want to have the part I purchased hooked up properly.
Title: Re: New Guy Need Help
Post by: jatracy on May 16, 2006, 11:03:59 PM
Quote from: Novaguy on May 16, 2006, 03:53:24 PM
1 dual pole 20 amp breaker.  One hot to one and one hot to the other, neutral to neutral.  The directions called for two separate 15amp breakers, however, this is what I got.  Is it wrong?

My gut felling is to agree with Roger1818 unless this particular breaker is feeding 220V to some appliance. That is unlikely since it is 20A, but in order for an appliance to get 220V, it must be wired to both phases of the incoming power.

When you say dual pole, are you referring to the type that has 2 small independent switches on it (this type physically occupies 1 slot in the breaker box) or are you referring to the type that has two large switches that are tied together (this type physically occupies 2 slots in the breaker box)?

Basically if the breaker only occupies 1 slot, then you have both taps connected to the same phase and it is not wired correctly.
Title: Re: New Guy Need Help
Post by: Novaguy on May 17, 2006, 01:04:42 AM
It is taking up two slots, however it only has one trip lever on it and it is 20 amps.  The guy messed up when he bought the breaker, but I had it installed like that anyway.  What I wanted was two 15 amp breakers that take up their own slot (that was what the instructions called for).  If it is wired incorrectly, I can always change it myself.  So once again, is it installed incorrectly?  You guys are a wealth of knowledge...
Title: Re: New Guy Need Help
Post by: jatracy on May 17, 2006, 09:54:47 AM
This sounds really fishy to me. From what you have explained, it appears that the coupler/repeater is installed correctly. To verify this, put an AC volt meter across the two terminals of the coupler/repeater and see if you read 220V. If you do not have a volt meter, go buy one (just kidding). No really, you can actually verify this by inspection if you know what to look for.
Title: Re: New Guy Need Help
Post by: roger1818 on May 17, 2006, 10:59:51 AM
Quote from: Novaguy on May 17, 2006, 01:04:42 AM
It is taking up two slots, however it only has one trip lever on it and it is 20 amps.  The guy messed up when he bought the breaker, but I had it installed like that anyway.  What I wanted was two 15 amp breakers that take up their own slot (that was what the instructions called for).  If it is wired incorrectly, I can always change it myself.  So once again, is it installed incorrectly?  You guys are a wealth of knowledge...

When I was talking about a double breaker, I was meaning one with 2 breakers in one slot.  These are used to allow you to increase the number of circuits in the electrical panel.  If that is what you have, both breakers will be on the same phase.

If it is taking up two slots, then it is probably a 220V breaker (used for 220V appliances and split duplexes) and the breakers will be on opposite phases.  If this is what you have, both breakers should be tied together so that both will always turn on and off at the same time.

As jatracy said, the best way to confirm that it is wired correctly is to make sure there is 220V across the two breakers with an AC volt meter, but if you don't have one and can't borrow one, you should be able to confirm it visually.

If it is wired incorrectly, you should be able to fix it without buying any more breakers and just moving circuits to different breakers.  Just make sure that all circuits are on breakers with exactly the same current rating as they did before (not higher or lower).
Title: Re: New Guy Need Help
Post by: ArtClark on November 05, 2006, 05:43:35 AM
Quick little Note (Very Late, I know)  If the 20 Amp Breaker has a single switch (I.E. a Bar so both go on/off at same time) then
this will ALWAYS be a 220 breaker.  No-one makes a double breaker for a single slot that ties the 110 breakers together.  The whole idea of taking a single 110 line, breaking into two seperate breakers and then tying the two breakers back together is
senseless.  Manufacturers would not do it.  On normal, single phase power, every other Full size slot is one side of the 220.  The
other slots are the other side.  The easiest way (Without a meter) to check for 220 is just make sure the wires go to any two
full size slot connections that are next to each other.  If you had all double breakers, the same rule applies.

This note is just for reference, in case someone is searching...
Title: Re: New Guy Need Help
Post by: Brian H on November 05, 2006, 07:04:44 AM
ArtClark; Not in my older homes breaker box. I have like 4 breakers; in a row from top to bottom all on the same phase then the next 4 are the other one. Only a few positions next to each other are 220 across the breakers connection screws.
Title: Re: New Guy Need Help
Post by: KDR on November 05, 2006, 07:18:40 AM
Brian... who makes the panel box?

Also as another side note, some manufactures made half breakers. You could pull out one standard breaker and install 2 half breakers. Both would be on the same phase. Federal was one.
Title: Re: New Guy Need Help
Post by: ArtClark on November 05, 2006, 11:40:39 PM
Ah Yes, The half breaker was what I was talking about when I mentioned a "Double Breaker".  You have to always go by the "Full"
breaker size, no matter how many switches are in that full breaker area.  (There are Quad breakers for commercial use...)

Brian, I also would like to know what type of box that is.  The alternate breaker for oppisite sides of the single phase is part of the
federal electrical code.  The original breaker box that I replaced only a few years back was installed in the late 60's to replace the original Fuse Box and these "Laws" had already been estrblished.  Obviously, I'm no expert on the history of national electric code,
but my top level electrical contractor relatives have never herard of that either.  He also said, VERY LOUDLY, that that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, just that it was manuf. before the code.  By the way, what type of breakers does it take??  I would be very interested and so would my relative.  (Electrical triva is his thing...   He drives me up the wall with the little tidbits he has stored away,
though I enjoy the talks because he has more experence than I could ever have.)
Title: Re: New Guy Need Help
Post by: dave w on November 06, 2006, 12:26:29 PM
Quote from: Brian H on November 05, 2006, 07:04:44 AM
ArtClark; Not in my older homes breaker box. I have like 4 breakers; in a row from top to bottom all on the same phase then the next 4 are the other one. Only a few positions next to each other are 220 across the breakers connection screws.

Wow Brian, That sounds like major confusion for 220V appliances. It sounds like you have a special area of the panel that is for 220V breakers (where they can be side by side)?