X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: rrr on April 16, 2006, 06:25:24 PM
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I saw this link on how to defeat local control on an SR227:
http://www.nomad.ee/micros/x10faq.html#q509
Does anyone have any experience with doing this?
Does anyone have a schematic on what's inside of the SR227? (I'd like to see what "cutting pin7" on the IC is really doing)
thanks!
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Don't bother. An SR227 has one X10 controlled outlet and one regular outlet in the same package. There is no local control. You can only turn it on and off by a controller, or the lamp's switch.
Disabling local control is only for lamp modules, not for applicance modules, which the SR227 is.
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Disabling local control is only for lamp modules, not for applicance modules, which the SR227 is.
This isn't true. Appliance modules do have local control. I am not sure about the SR227 specifically, but the AM486, the AM466 and the AM14A all have local control.
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The SR227 is an outlet, and has no local control. It's a mechanical switch. If a lamp is plugged into the X10 controlled outlet and is on and the power goes out, when power is restored, the lamp relights. Two of my living room lights are on a Sr227 and every outage we've had when they are on, those two lights will come on when the power is restored
Our power went out during a hurricane several years ago, and was out for three full days. When the power went out, those two lights were on. When the power came back on three days later, those two lights were the only ones in the house on.
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Dan; The SR227 has the same mechanical relay in it as a appliance module so it will be in the same state as when power was off. Can you verify if the outlet is off cycling the power switch on the local lamp will not turn it on? Mostly curious as X10 has no data in the single install sheet. I personally think it does not have local control but you can never verify it by the skimpy install sheet.
Thank you for any added data you can provide.
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I don't think the SR227 has local control either. It could create a dangerous situation, in that, plugging a device into the SR227 could cause it to unexpectedly turn on when you thought it was off. Or a coffee maker could come back on when the internal thermostat cooled and cycled. Since the instructions say nothing about Local Control it is safe to bet it doesn't
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I have had X10 wall outlet modules installed for a number of years. I don't know if they are the exact same model number you're using or not (I didn't open the outlet up to find out). Both of them definately have local control, and it comes in handy on a regular basis.
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The SR227 DOES NOT have local control. I turned off the two lamps that I have plugged in to the controlled outlet OFF with AHP, then tried to turn the two lamps by their local switch. Neither lamp tumed on.
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OK my apologies. Just checked my wall outlet modules out. They are Radio Shack # 61-2685, probably at least eight years old. I have no idea what prior X10 number that maps to. Sorry for the confusion. By the way if you have one of these and it's started to stutter when you turn it on I can tell you how to repair it.
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Disabling local control is only for lamp modules, not for applicance modules, which the SR227 is.
The super socket is a repackaged appliance module
Source (http://www.geocities.com/ido_bartana/Modifying_Super_Socket.htm)
- Modifying appliance modules for local control (http://www.geocities.com/ido_bartana/Modifying_Appliance_module.htm#Modifying appliance modules for local control)
. - Defeating local current sensing (http://www.geocities.com/ido_bartana/Modifying_Appliance_module.htm#Defeating local current sensing)
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Disabling local control is only for lamp modules, not for applicance modules, which the SR227 is.
This isn't true. Appliance modules do have local control. I am not sure about the SR227 specifically, but the AM486, the AM466 and the AM14A all have local control.
Every 2-pin and 3-pin Appliance Module that I've owned (BSR, X-10, RadioShack) has had local control.
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Just checked my wall outlet modules out. They are Radio Shack # 61-2685, probably at least eight years old.
I've had 3 RS 61-2685s in service for ~15-20 years (you all know how bad I am with estimating years! ;) ), controlling through-the-wall air conditioners, and every one of them has local control.
Without pulling off wall covers and actually examining them, I first checked my SPARES box - I have 1 brand new RS 61-2685 left and it's BEIGE. I also have 1 brand new SR227 in there and it's WHITE.
Personally, I find it hard to believe that X-10 created TWO DIFFERENT VERSIONS of the SUPER SOCKET, but I'm sure that we have enough "Old Geezer's" here to check:
- If your SUPER SOCKET is BEIGE (probably a RS 61-2685), turn it OFF via PLC and then plug and unplug a SWITCHED ON LOAD into the CONTROLLED OUTLET - does it turn ON?
. - If your SUPER SOCKET is WHITE (probably an X-10 SR227), turn it OFF via PLC and then plug and unplug a SWITCHED ON LOAD into the CONTROLLED OUTLET - does it turn ON?
If anyone has a WHITE RS 61-2685, or a BEIGE X-10 SR227, please let us all know.
Thanks! :)
By the way if you have one of these and it's started to stutter when you turn it on I can tell you how to repair it.
This: Report on defective supersocket (http://www.idobartana.com/hakb/Modifying_Super_Socket.htm#Report_on_defective_supersocket), or something else?
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I have a white one and it does have local control. I just checked it. I did not pull of the face plate to check the model number as it is in a location that is difficult to access.
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To add a little bit more to the confusion:
I just wired up a SR227 Split Receptacle Module (White, Date code sticker 00A03) in a handy box I use for testing things like this.
I plugged in a 100 Watt incandescent lamp and verified correct On/Off operation by sending X10 powerline commands.
I turned the lamp Off and On repeatedly using the rotary switch in the base of this lamp, but the module did NOT switch on.
I then unplugged the lamp, and with the lamp switch in the On position plugged it in again. This time the module DID switch On. I repeated this test several times with the same result MOST of the times. I appeared that jiggling the plug a little when inserting rather than ramming it straight in was better at getting the module to switch on.
I then tried the same test with a 1500 Watt GE Toaster Oven. The module would NOT switch On if I turned the toaster over On with its own switch, but it would switch On when I plugged in an already-turned-on toaster oven.
Finally, I plugged a plug strip into the module and retested plugging in the lamp, but this time into the plug strip. The results were the same as plugging the lamp directly into the module, including the effect of jiggling the plug. This particular plug strip has a neon bulb pilot light, and so long as there is no load plugged in, the neon bulb remained On when the module was Off, indicating the module is attempting to sense the load.
It would appear that the little bit of arcing when a plug is jiggled into the socket is more effective than a quick clean insertion in causing the module to switch On.
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Thanks for the tests and now more data to think over. ::)
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Local control for Appliance modules tends to be kind of finicky. I have a coffee maker plugged into one and when I turn on the coffee maker, the appliance module will stay off, but if I then immediately turn the coffee maker off and then on again the appliance module will turn on.
This behavior is fine with me because normally I use a remote to trigger a macro to turn on the coffee maker and then turn it off again an hour later. If for some reason I don't want it to turn off in an hour, I turn the coffee maker On-Off-On to turn the module on with local control.
One other interesting thing is that the coffee maker has an LED to indicate that the power is on and an LED to indicate that it is set for 6-10 cups. When the module is off and the coffee maker power is on, the power LED will be lit if it is set for 1-5 cups, but will be off it it is set for 6-10 cups.
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...When the module is off and the coffee maker power is on, the power LED will be lit if it is set for 1-5 cups, but will be off it it is set for 6-10 cups.
That is just plain weird.
I don't make much coffee but when my mom visits from out of town she has been know to leave the pot on so I plugged mine into an appliance module. I added an OFF command to my shutdown macro after finding the pot on for over 8 hours. The light (not LED) in my switch stays on for a while after I turn off the module.
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Nope, not wierd when you know what is happening. The light on your coffee pot is probably a neon light. The sense current from the Appliance Module is high enough in voltage to light the neon light, as long as neither brewing element thermostat nor pot hot plate element thermostat is calling for heat.
(This was the condition when you turned App mod OFF and the light remained lit). A few minutes later, after the pot cooled, the the keep warm thermostat closed, calling for heat from hot plate. With thermostat closed and hot plate element now in circuit, the sense voltage is reduced to the point the neon light will no longer light. This is usually the point when "local sense" in the module tries to turn everything back ON. You must have disabled "Local Sensing" yes?
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One other interesting thing is that the coffee maker has an LED to indicate that the power is on and an LED to indicate that it is set for 6-10 cups. When the module is off and the coffee maker power is on, the power LED will be lit if it is set for 1-5 cups, but will be off it it is set for 6-10 cups.
Unfortunately appliance wiring diagrams don't seem to be readily available any more so here's my guess as to what's happening and hopefully it will prompt further discussion. I have two situations where the leakage current from appliance modules is enough to dimly turn on LEDs when the module is off. In your case I think the 1-5/6-10 switch changes the configuration of the warming elements under the pot not the brewing element. The module leakage is probably enough to turn on one LED but not both. This would indicate that each LED is in parallel with one of the two warming elements and they get weirdly switched along with the warming elements.
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This is usually the point when "local sense" in the module tries to turn everything back ON. You must have disabled "Local Sensing" yes?
My experience is that you must disable local control on any module that is used in a circuit with thermostats (excluding the TH2807 Thermostat Setback Controller of course)). It is the only safe way to use X-10 modules in such applications.
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I was gifted by someone with one of these --> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200019476256
(http://i14.ebayimg.com/03/i/07/a7/d0/bc_1.JPG)
It uses a neon to indicate power on. It's on/off operation is entirely thermo-mechanical. I LOVE it.
I was going to tear into it and wire the on/off button to a UM506 thinking it was a momentary pushbutton. I opened it up and discovered that the "on" button actually just pushes "reset" on a thermo-mechanical thermostat.
When there's water in the tank it the thermo stays below its cutoff point and passes power to the heating element. As soon as the "water jacket" goes away the temp skyrockets as the element heats the bare metal face of the thermo. The thermo "trips" and cuts power to the element. No worries about leaving it on. No macros needed for safety.
I have it hooked to an unmodified 2-way appliance module (the ones that were on special for $10 each a few weeks ago) and "turning it on" when the module is off does not activate local control. And the neon doesn't glow when the pot is off and the module is on because it isn't in the electrical circuit unless it's actually "turned on".
And the carafe on this thing is AMAZING. I can fill it with hot water from the tap and 8 - 10 hours later it is still to hot to immerse your hand for more than a few seconds.
So, I've now got in the habit of using a remote to turn off the module as I go to pour a fresh made pot of coffee into my cup and I go ahead and set the pot up for the next run and push the "on switch". When I'm ready for more I just remote-on the module. (I use a 32 oz. insulated cup so I make my coffee 1/2 pot at a time. I tend to drink it slower that way, no "hammering down" the last 3/4 "regular ceramic" mug as it cools and pouring more).
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phorce1: Since it is now part of the permanent record here I can see that I should clarify my post about thermostats and X10. I was specifically referring to free running thermostats that will turn on and off as temperatures change. Your pot, which I think is a really neat piece of engineering by the way, is using the thermostat as a thermal circuit breaker. That is once it turns off it can't turn back on. Would you be willing to try an experiment for me? Once you've set everything up and reset the thermostat ready to brew coffee when you activate the appliance module would you try unplugging the pot from the module and plugging it back in to see if it turns on with local control. If it doesn't the first time try it again. This would duplicate the power interuption problem which is one of the reasons I recommend defeating local control in an application like this.
CORRECTION: (Next morning) I should have said to unplug the module from the wall socket not the pot from the module to simulate the action of a power failure. Sorry for the mix up. I suspect the pot will turn on if you unplug it from the module and plug it back in but won't if you unplug the module and plug it back in. The real test would be to jiggle the module plug in the socket since the restored power after a failure or switchover usually contains a lot of transients.
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I have some new SR227's direct ordered from X10.
Connecting an incandescent lamp fixture, turning the fixture switch from on to off to on causes the receptale to turn on. This is local control
I became aware of it because my home has 100% fluorescent lighting, and I am attempting to install x10 controls in some areas. Becasue I did my installation and installation testing with an incandescent trouble light, I didn't spot the problem until I connected a 3 lamp fluorescent fixture, and turned on 2 of the 14watt lamps. A moderate size fluorescent lampill cause the unit to turn back on within a 1-2 seconds of turning the SR227 off.
I determined that there was no other factors at work such as line noise or floating grround voltages. For testing I had a transceiver, SR227 and lamp conntected through a Tripplite surge protector which has 80db line isolation. I monitored the load side of the surge protector with a capture scope. There is no ambient noise on the line, or it is so low that my Tektronix can't see it.
Monitoring across the lamp fixture connected to an unswitched outlet, what I see after the fixture is turned off manually is a back EMF surge from the ballast. Plugging in the fixture with its switch on causes an inrush surge of similar magnitude.
For comparison, I used the same setup with an AM466 3 wire appliance module, which is descrribed on x10's website as suitable for use with fluorescent loads. It works fine. Ironically, a two wire lamp module, whose description has dire warniings about use with fluorescent loasd also works fine. There is a visual ramp up and dim down action as the voltage comes up to the trigger voltage of the lamps, but other than that, it seems to be ok.
I did find a reference to a Leviton receptacle 2245W, explicitly described as "local control disabled" for twice the cost $30, but it does not seem to be available.