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🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: NeilF on August 14, 2006, 12:57:34 PM

Title: Light are Turning on their own
Post by: NeilF on August 14, 2006, 12:57:34 PM
A few days ago out of nowhere after 6 years of working a couple of my wall switches lights just turned on by themselves and kept doing it - within minutes of me turning them off.  I then ubplugged EVERY wall module including the one attached to a PC.  Still the problem happened and it is now happening to almost all of my lights in the house.  I have had to turn the switch off on the bottom oe each to stop this.  I am trying to turn them back on one at a time to figure the problem but it's difficult.

I also turned the breaker off of the booster I have wired in.

Any ideas why my lights are turning on on their own.  I'm wondering if a neighbor has a switch and is fooling aroud but I know that's not the case - no one I know has X10 around me.

Thanks in advance

Neil
Title: Re: Light are Turning on their own
Post by: Brian H on August 14, 2006, 04:44:42 PM
You could try a different house code as a test for neighbor interference.
No motion sensors or remotes?
We actually had a strange one here recently. The problem was a remote stuck in a box not being used and the button on it got pushed. ::)
Title: Re: Light are Turning on their own
Post by: NeilF on August 14, 2006, 08:15:44 PM
We have remotes but the one motion sensor has had the batteries removed and I'm fairly certain all modules have been removed from the walls so can a remote still work with w/o them?

Thanks
Title: Re: Light are Turning on their own
Post by: TakeTheActive on August 14, 2006, 11:54:57 PM
Quote from: NeilF on August 14, 2006, 12:57:34 PM
Any ideas why my lights are turning on on their own.

Light are Turning on their own (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=9567.msg56761#msg56761)
Title: Re: Light are Turning on their own
Post by: nelson on August 15, 2006, 03:23:45 PM
I've had the same problem recently and the problem has some very unique characteristics.

This is a very strange situation and has me baffled. The only possible explanation that makes sense to me is that perhaps I've installed two bad modules in succession. Is it possible that there is a big batch of bad modules?

I would appreciate any input...any guess on your part to shed some light on this weird problem.
Thanks,
--Nelson
Title: Re: Light are Turning on their own
Post by: Brian H on August 15, 2006, 04:17:59 PM
nelson; Regular Incadescent type bulbs?
Title: Re: Light are Turning on their own
Post by: nelson on August 15, 2006, 04:23:06 PM
Quote from: Brian H on August 15, 2006, 04:17:59 PM
nelson; Regular Incadescent type bulbs?
Yes...incandescent bulbs...
Title: Re: Light are Turning on their own
Post by: roger1818 on August 21, 2006, 10:19:21 AM
I have read that there is a design problem with X10's wall switches.  This problem is described and a fix is provided at Fixing module that randomly turns on (http://www.geocities.com/idobartana/modifying_wall_switch.htm#Fixing%20module%20that%20randomly%20turns%20on).  I haven't tried it myself, but I have read that it has fixed the problem for some people in this forum.
Title: Re: Light are Turning on their own
Post by: nelson on August 22, 2006, 12:20:27 AM
Quote from: roger1818 on August 21, 2006, 10:19:21 AM
I have read that there is a design problem with X10's wall switches.  This problem is described and a fix is provided at Fixing module that randomly turns on (http://www.geocities.com/idobartana/modifying_wall_switch.htm#Fixing%20module%20that%20randomly%20turns%20on).  I haven't tried it myself, but I have read that it has fixed the problem for some people in this forum.
Thanks Roger...very helpful response.
However...I don't think I'll start modifying switches until my frustration level is at maximum...not quite there yet.
Title: Re: Light are Turning on their own
Post by: roger1818 on August 22, 2006, 11:43:41 AM
Quote from: nelson on August 22, 2006, 12:20:27 AM
Thanks Roger...very helpful response.
However...I don't think I'll start modifying switches until my frustration level is at maximum...not quite there yet.

If you don't feel up to modifying the switches, you could always replace them with better quality ones.  The X10 brand wall switches are the worst modules out there.  SmartHome makes some reasonably priced ones that are much better, though they aren't as cheap as the X10 brand.  Leviton and ACT also make some good quality switches but they cost a bit more.
Title: Re: Light are Turning on their own
Post by: Dan Lawrence on August 22, 2006, 01:11:40 PM
What's odd is that I have 6 WS467s on 3 different housecodes on my X10 system and have never had any tum or by themselves going back to the DOS days. All have timers, and the timers work flawlessly.

I might guess the problem related by NeilF just might be noise related.
Title: Re: Light are Turning on their own
Post by: roger1818 on August 23, 2006, 10:34:49 AM
Quote from: Dan Lawrence on August 22, 2006, 01:11:40 PM
I might guess the problem related by NeilF just might be noise related.

According to Steve Bloom, the problem is caused by "a power spike from a large bank of magnetic ballast fluorescents on the same circuit, large motor, etc."  If you don't have this situation, you won't have this problem.
Title: Re: Light are Turning on their own
Post by: Dan Lawrence on August 23, 2006, 11:32:58 AM
Roger. who is Steve Bloom?  A Google search gives no Steve Bloom with an X10 link.

You are right, I don't have any "large bank of magnetic ballast fluorescents on the same circuit, large motor, etc." in my house. Just 1 fluorescent light in the Breakfast Room, which has a X10 Pro wired in module on address F2, works perfectly.
Title: Re: Light are Turning on their own
Post by: dave w on August 23, 2006, 12:19:05 PM
I think Steve's statement is correct, but a bit too broad. I have a couple WS467's that some times turn ON for "no reason". However there really is a cause. When our 30 year old heat pump compressor starts, the house mains dip, almost imperceptibly. The fact that the 467 has unused inputs on the controller chip that are not tied either high or low,  explains the occurrence.  It is not un-acceptable to let unused inputs on CMOS float, but the unsophisticated reactive power supply incorporated in nearly all X10 products do not provide a "rock solid" environment for the controller chips supply voltage. When the supply voltage for the controller dips all over the place and the floating inputs do not track, the chip "thinks" it just saw an input toggle, and triggers the triac. In other words Steve's qualification of "on the same circuit" is a little broad. I have the problem and the HVAC is not on same circuit as the dinning room light.  Now if I can just find the stash of 10k resistors and the soldering iron I use to fix the gutter down spouts. I will fix these things  ;)
Title: Re: Light are Turning on their own
Post by: roger1818 on August 23, 2006, 01:53:01 PM
Quote from: Dan Lawrence on August 23, 2006, 11:32:58 AM
Roger. who is Steve Bloom?  A Google search gives no Steve Bloom with an X10 link.

I am not sure exactly who he is, but he is the one who apparently originally suggested the solution of soldering pull-up resistors on the wall switch (see Fixing module that randomly turns on (http://www.geocities.com/idobartana/modifying_wall_switch.htm#Fixing%20module%20that%20randomly%20turns%20on)).  He is also credited for having drawn schematics for many X10 modules by reverse engineering them.

Quote
You are right, I don't have any "large bank of magnetic ballast fluorescents on the same circuit, large motor, etc." in my house. Just 1 fluorescent light in the Breakfast Room, which has a X10 Pro wired in module on address F2, works perfectly.

That would probably explain why you "have never had any tum or by themselves."

I have one wall switch that earlier in the summer would sometimes turn on randomly and at other times wouldn't turn on via an X10 command (seemed to reliably turn off though).  The problem seems to have gone away for now but I suspect it was somehow related to a fan or my central air conditioner (I never had a time to debug it properly).
Title: Re: Light are Turning on their own
Post by: nelson on August 23, 2006, 06:12:43 PM
Well...here I am with a little egg on my face...I'm not as smart as I thought I was.

I've discovered what was causing a few lights to go on by themselves.
I remembered that I recently put a trickle charger on a car battery (the battery is not in the car, just sittting on a shelf).
While I have filters on my TV's, computers and UPS's I did not have a filter on this recently added trickle charger. After removing the charger about 36 hours ago there has not been one unintended lighting event.

It was Roger's comment about considering getting better quality switches that made me realize that noise on the line might affect some switches and not others. At that point I started walking around the house trying to find what might generate noise...when I got to the battery charger I was sure that was it...and it was.

Thanks to all of the participants here for helping with my thought process...it was very helpful.

--Nelson
Title: Re: Light are Turning on their own
Post by: Brian H on August 23, 2006, 06:58:11 PM
Thanks for that information. We see uncommon noise makers from time to time. Someone had a constant X10 signal on the line that was a Remote packed in a box that has something intermittently push the button and start the signals. ::)
Title: Re: Light are Turning on their own
Post by: TakeTheActive on August 23, 2006, 08:43:15 PM
Quote from: nelson on August 23, 2006, 06:12:43 PM
Well...here I am with a little egg on my face...I'm not as smart as I thought I was...

I would like to [with as much 'unbiasedness ' (Yeah, I looked it up first - IT'S A REAL WORD!) as possible ;) ], recommend that you read my X10 FAQ (as referenced by my SIG LINK).

While X10 Stuff is 'Great Fun', because of it's age, it's not exactly "Plug-N-Go" anymore! :D

Quote from: nelson on August 23, 2006, 06:12:43 PM
...Thanks to all of the participants here for helping with my thought process...it was very helpful.

Please be sure to CLICK on the 'Helpful' LINK for the posts that the VOLUNTEERs submitted and you benefited from. ;)
Title: Re: Light are Turning on their own
Post by: -Bill- (of wgjohns.com) on August 23, 2006, 09:55:24 PM
Quote from: dave w on August 23, 2006, 12:19:05 PM
It is not un-acceptable to let unused inputs on CMOS float...

Just had to interject.  Everything I have ever read on circuit design using CMOS components says that all unused inputs must be tied to VCC or Ground, otherwise, erratic behaviour and / or excessive current draw will occur.

From personal experience, ignoring that advice in your circuit design is an open invitation to the dread Murphy!
Title: Re: Light are Turning on their own
Post by: KDR on August 24, 2006, 06:23:54 AM
Another noise maker... All of a sudden I have lights that stopped coming on. Found that when my wife's new laptop battery charger is plugged in no lights. Unplugged = lights. What made it hard to find is that one day its plugged in here... then there then somewhere else.

As common as the 3 prong adaptors are to older houses I guess a handful of plug-in filters laying around will be needed for the X10 house.

Off to buy more filters
Title: Re: Light are Turning on their own
Post by: -Bill- (of wgjohns.com) on August 24, 2006, 09:27:57 PM
Quote from: KDR on August 24, 2006, 06:23:54 AM
Another noise maker... All of a sudden I have lights that stopped coming on. Found that when my wife's new laptop battery charger is plugged in no lights. Unplugged = lights. What made it hard to find is that one day its plugged in here... then there then somewhere else.

As common as the 3 prong adaptors are to older houses I guess a handful of plug-in filters laying around will be needed for the X10 house.

Off to buy more filters

As I posted elsewhere, I had the same problem with a laptop power supply.  Took forever (it seemed) before I noticed the coincidence that it only happened when my wife's laptop was plugged in to the circuit the lamp was on.  Mind you, my laptop doesn't cause the problem!  I guess all power supplies are NOT created equal!
Title: Re: Light are Turning on their own
Post by: WhiteWolf on August 25, 2006, 12:44:09 AM
I have had similar experience with a light switch activating all by itself. I believe that humidity is playing a role in my issue. In the summer, with the AC running 24/7 there are no problems. In the winter with the heat on 24/7 no problems. In the spring or fall when the house is open I get occasional "light on" events. All of these could be turned off by remote command. I live in Florida where the humidity is 80%+ on a normal day.