X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: KDR on August 19, 2006, 07:46:08 PM
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Has anyone run into the problem with repeaters that when it repeats the address for a command to dim a light the light gets 2 signals and dimes to much? Do repeaters only repeat once or multiple times? If once I could set the light to dim half of what I want knowing it will get the command again and dim again. Any ideas on this subject?
I purchased a phase coupler/repeater thinking it would be better but now I think I should have just gotten a coupler.
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Should do once; but if the module is in a place to see the original command and the repeated command. It may double dim. Also some repeaters may double dim. I don't have any dimming modules with my Smarthome Dryer Outlet Repeater, but I think in dim tests I have seen double dims. Couplers are OK if you remember that the noise and signal level at the coupler is what gets back to the other phase. Like if the 5 volts from the controller or PLC at the coupler is down to 1 volt. The other phase starts at 1 volt back to the other branch circuits.
Just a side note on Repeaters. In my case the Smarthome 4826B. I just got some of the AM14A two-way modules and when they start from power up. Send a find my status command that the CM11A [was an old X10 paper I read] and most likely the CM15A respond to with a last known state that sets it back that way. Well mine most times starts a Firestorm of continuous extended signals that swamp the powerlines making the system lock up completely.
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Brian H:
As far as I've ever observed, the CM11A by itself sends nothing in response to an AM14A (or LM14A) power-up signal, and I suspect the CM15A doesn't either. It's most likely the software which does this.
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Yes my reply was to broad. It is the software that has to see the request and then send a reply.
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Has anyone run into the problem with repeaters that when it repeats the address for a command to dim a light the light gets 2 signals and dimes to much? Do repeaters only repeat once or multiple times? If once I could set the light to dim half of what I want knowing it will get the command again and dim again. Any ideas on this subject?
I purchased a phase coupler/repeater thinking it would be better but now I think I should have just gotten a coupler.
What make and model of CR do you have? Phil Kingery describes two different ways CRs handle bright and dim commands (one used by X10 (and thus Levition) and one used by ACT) in his article Which One Should I Use, Part V: Dim/Bright Commands and Coupler-Repeaters (http://www.act-solutions.com/kingery05.htm). Neither of these should cause too much dimming, but I like ACT's approach better.
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I found a real problem with my sale purchased AM14A Two-Way modules and my Smarthome 4826B 3 pin Dryer Outlet Repeater/Coupler. The AM14A and LM14A both have no nonvolatile memory in them to remember settings if the power is lost. So on power up they send a extended request for Status (Hex 37) on the powerline. The CM11A and I would guess CM15A should receive this request and the software should send commands to program it to last known state.
Anyway this request on some but not all House/Unit Codes starts a Firestorm of continuous X10 signals bouncing from phase to phase so that the whole system is toasted and no real signals get through. Have to unplug the module or turn off the repeater to stop it.
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What make and model of CR do you have?
Sorry, should have stated that early on. I have the Smarthome 4826B.
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Another thing I noticed is that when AHP sees the repeated signal it changes the status of dim/bright.
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This post caught my attention. I have the Smart Home 4826B with the the AH CM15A. The MS13A and WS467 are the only modules in a constant traffic pattern. I, too, have seen the CM15A start flooding with odd "J" macro commands and lock out any legitimate access. Is this considered a "feature" of the CM15A or the 4826B? Is there any known fix or mod? Unfortunately, I need the amplification as well as the coupler. Thanks.
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Unfortunately, I need the amplification as well as the coupler.
SEARCH for:
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This post caught my attention. I have the Smart Home 4826B with the the AH CM15A. The MS13A and WS467 are the only modules in a constant traffic pattern. I, too, have seen the CM15A start flooding with odd "J" macro commands and lock out any legitimate access. Is this considered a "feature" of the CM15A or the 4826B? Is there any known fix or mod? Unfortunately, I need the amplification as well as the coupler. Thanks.
It is a known incompatibility between the CM15A and both the SmartHome and the Leviton CRs. From what I have read, the ACT CRs don't have this incompatibility. I came up with a theory once about why there is this incompatibility, but have never heard an official responce from X10 though.
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Well I know the Smarthome 4826B 3 pin dryer outlet repeater and the X10 AM14A don't get along at all. The module on power up sends a request for my status to the controller and it's software. All I get is a constant firestorm of X10 Signal garbage on the powerlines. So the CM15A having problems; as reported by others; doesn't surprise me. The ACT units have a switches that can set things like don't repeat repeated signals; so that may help.
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Yep, the same for me.
I just got a 4826B, and it clearly does not play well with my LM14A 2-way Lamp Modules.
No problems with any of my other modules, just the LM14A's. :(
In playing around with it, the problem appears to be between the LM14A's trying to return status,
and the 4826 trying to repeat that status. The LM14A "sees" the repeat as a collision, and subsequently
tries to return status again. The 4826 tries to repeat it again. Etc. Etc.
The result is the 4826's A-side LED blink. Then the B-side. A-side. B-side. Over and over again,
ping ponging back and forth.
Until you unplug either the LM14A or the 4826.
My suggestion, is that if you any 2-way modules, to avoid the 4826A or 4826B.
BTW, has anyone else reported this is Smarthome's Tech Support? I just tried, and they claim to
have never had anyone else report it (implying it is just me, and not their 4826).
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Not just you at all. I have a 4826B, and I see this ping pong as well (on a totally unrelated code O13- and I don't have anything on O nor transduce that house code). I haven't seen it many times, but I recently had it happen when I sent a poll request. I polled a standard module that had been set up as two-way previously (so no real return) and a real two-way. Not sure which caused the ping pong to start, but the "real" two-way is likely, with the return wreaking the havoc. Odd that it's an unrelated code...although it has happened a couple of times before, and it was O13 then as well.
I will be calling Smarthome tech support later, and I'll mention that I know you reported this in case they try the "never been reported" angle :)
UPDATE: I spoke with Smarthome and got a good rep. He had not heard of the issue, but immediately thought that it might ping pong for the reasons stated. His initial answer was that one just needs to get a higher quality item to avoid this. Consultation with his colleagues made him think it might be defective (they had not heard of it either). They're going to send a new one, and I'll try that. Beyond that (and I'm not hopeful), a coupler/repeater than can be set to ignore repeated signals may be necessary for truly using the two-way features.
Cheers.
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Oh great!
I'm expecting a 4826b to arrive any second now! I don't have any 2 way modules currently, but had anticipated moving in that direction. Thanks, at least, for saving me some (more!) aggravation.
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Mine also goes nuts with either a LM14A or AM14A two way module on some but not all Addresses.
I am going to use an ACT 234 shortly and retire the Smarthome one.
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Oh great!
I'm expecting a 4826b to arrive any second now! I don't have any 2 way modules currently, but had anticipated moving in that direction. Thanks, at least, for saving me some (more!) aggravation.
I should clarify that the problem seems to be with extended commands. X10 and ACT 2-way modules use them, but SmartHome's 2-way modules don't. ACT's coupler repeaters support extended commands properly but Leveton and SmartHome's coupler repeaters don't.
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FYI, I have updated my tutorial on Phase Couplers (http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Phase_Coupling) to include an explanation of the Problems With Extended Commands (http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Phase_Coupling#Problems_With_Extended_Commands).
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That is a very good description of the problem with extended commands. To further complicate the matter, the extended portion is not sent twice as the "standard" portion of the command is.
In addition to the ACT repeaters, the XTB-II does recognize extended commands, and will not transmit them in the basic repeater mode. It does provide the option to receive them and pass them on to the automation controller if that is capable of recognizing them. It does transmit any extended commands received from the automation controller.
One thing I am trying to grapple with is how best to deal with extended commands in the enhanced repeater unit. As you point out in your tutorial, it is not possible to begin the repeat in sync with the second half of the standard portion of the message. However, delaying the repeat until the entire extended message has completed will consume almost an additional second of powerline time, and will obviously step on any message that was tailgating the original extended message. It is possible to monitor the powerline, and abort transmission if a collision is recognized. However, that will delay transmission of the extended command even further, and it is possible that the out-of-sequence transmission will induce other unforeseen problems. Any inputs regarding this complex issue are welcome.
Jeff
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The AM14A 2 way and the 4826A repeater is the problem at my house when no signals can be received by any other devices. I have had it happen about 5 times now since I bought 4 AM14A 2 way modules. It always happens after a power outage and when the power is restored nothing works. I used Smarthome manager and put it in advanced controller and watched the monitor readout. That is how I found continues signals being sent, I but did not know what was causing it. I suspected the repeater but was not sure until I visited this forum. Unplugging the stuck module and plugging it back in cured the problem.
I have been using X10 for about 30 years now. I have modules that are that old, the old brown RS ones. I use the AM14A 2 way modules to turn on my computer and security system in and around my pole barn that is about 400 feet from the house. That way I can tell if I left anything on and can turn it off from my house. I use the IP enabled cameras and can monitor everything from any computer on my system. I ran cat5 to the pole barn for ethernet.
I use 25 various controllers.
I have my smoke detectors connected in my pole barn to activate the burglar alarm modules.
Another to sound an alarm for my septic system dos tank alarm.
I use an appliance module to control a contactor for the water heater.
Most of the others control lighting.
I am retired now but I used a duplex receptical controller to turn on a radio for about 20 years and and it never failed me. I like that I can use preset different on and off time just by turning the device codes knob and not have to reprogram a clock. My wife still works and she likes the quick setup.
Just about everything is controlled by my Smarthome manager using timers.
N3IXJ
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The LM14A and AM14A send out a status request when powered up as they have no memory to know where they where before a power loss.
The old Active Home and CM11A could take the request and send the state it was in as it though it was in. My Smarthome repeater sometime went into a constant bouncing signals when one was connected. If you only power down for a second or two. The modules power supply may not discharge enough for the module to loos its settings.
Note the CR234 and CR134 [can be used as a split single phase] can be set to NOT repeat known repeated signals.
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I believe the 2-ways send out the same command upon powering up, as they send in response to a command or a request for status. It is only the data that is different, and denotes which it is (either "I am telling you my status" or "What is my status suppose to be?").
I guess the Smarthome repeaters don't seem to care about the data part of the command. If it is simply an extended status command, it goes into that non-stop constant repeating.
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I believe the 2-ways send out the same command upon powering up, as they send in response to a command or a request for status. It is only the data that is different, and denotes which it is (either "I am telling you my status" or "What is my status suppose to be?").
I guess the Smarthome repeaters don't seem to care about the data part of the command. If it is simply an extended status command, it goes into that non-stop constant repeating.
As I said in the section Problems With Extended Commands (http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Phase_Coupling#Problems_With_Extended_Commands) of my Phase Coupling (http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Phase_Coupling) tutorial, the SmartHome CRs will cause problems when they receive extended commands.
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As I said in the section Problems With Extended Commands (http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Phase_Coupling#Problems_With_Extended_Commands) of my Phase Coupling (http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Phase_Coupling) tutorial, the SmartHome CRs will cause problems when they receive extended commands.
Though, I am not so sure that your article is all that correct.
I have read over in RemoteCentral that the ACT repeater-coupler can also have the same problem with extended commands, though possibly not as often as the other brands. Specifically, their CR234 can, under the right conditions, cause the constant barrage of repeating commands, which, because they are truncated, can look like J-house code commands to something like the AHP's Activity Monitor.
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Turning ON Switch #3 stops the CR234 and CR134 from re repeating known repeated signals. I was advised by my vendor though #3 defaults to Off. Turn it ON.
That could or could not be a factor? Installing a AM14A does not cause a signal firestorm like my Smarthome repeater would do.