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🛡Home Security => Problems and Troubleshooting => Topic started by: lynnymoore on September 09, 2006, 01:46:00 PM

Title: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: lynnymoore on September 09, 2006, 01:46:00 PM
I am out of town right now and I have the DS7000 armed. If the alarm goes off it dials my phone and I can "listen in" otherwise listen to the alarm going off. If I somehow determine it was a false alarm, how do I turn off the alarm before the 4 minutes is up or at least reset the alarm if it ends after the 4 minutes? As it is I am assuming all the lights will remain on. How do I do the all lights off remotely hence resetting the alarm? Anyone have experience with this? OldTimer? Thanks.
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: tom j on September 22, 2006, 07:34:41 PM
I am out of town right now and I have the DS7000 armed. If the alarm goes off it dials my phone and I can "listen in" otherwise listen to the alarm going off. If I somehow determine it was a false alarm, how do I turn off the alarm before the 4 minutes is up or at least reset the alarm if it ends after the 4 minutes? As it is I am assuming all the lights will remain on. How do I do the all lights off remotely hence resetting the alarm? Anyone have experience with this? OldTimer? Thanks.

You can't turn it off remotely those lights will remain on until you get back home! Now there is a way around it you're need that x10 telephone transponder see link below call and check but I'm almost sure it has a All Light On All Lights Off

Tcj

http://www.x10.com/products/x10_tr16a.htm
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: tom j on September 26, 2006, 02:09:03 AM
Well I did a little checking and the x10 unit does not have an All Light On All Lights Off function sorry. I actually have a leviton telephone transponder 6325 that has voice and the All Lights On All Lights off feature unfortunately it's not being manufactured anymore. Check around though you still might be able to pick one up. Hope This Helps

Tcj
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: TakeTheActive on September 26, 2006, 01:40:08 PM
Well I did a little checking and the x10 unit does not have an All Light On All Lights Off function sorry...

I just read the TR16A Owner's Manual (ftp://ftp.x10.com/pub/manuals/tr16a-om.pdf) and it *DOES* have All_Lights_On and All_Units_Off as LOCAL commands, but not as REMOTE. REMOTE can only handle Unit Codes 1-10, ON or OFF.

So, what's wrong with using a macro?  Even the CM11A can handle something this simple. 20 macros will allow some nice functionality.
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: tom j on September 26, 2006, 02:23:46 PM
Well I did a little checking and the x10 unit does not have an All Light On All Lights Off function sorry...

I just read the TR16A Owner's Manual (ftp://ftp.x10.com/pub/manuals/tr16a-om.pdf) and it *DOES* have All_Lights_On and All_Units_Off as LOCAL commands, but not as REMOTE. REMOTE can only handle Unit Codes 1-10, ON or OFF.

So, what's wrong with using a macro?  Even the CM11A can handle something this simple. 20 macros will allow some nice functionality.

Say Good looking out TakeTheActive!  ;D Well I guess I didn't see that, only thing is it's not very answering machine friendly though it answers after thirty seconds and can cut off your messages will try to post that information, probably would make your answering machine useless while you were away if that was important to you. Say TakeTheActive could you take a look at my last post in Monitor Plus Run 2 Mode and tell me what you think is going on. Thanks!

Tcj

Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: tom j on September 29, 2006, 01:36:21 AM
I was just setting here thinking that x10 should really incorporate this feature into the console let you call in and do a All Light Off command this thing has been around I would think 10 years?? and there's been no major improvements I mean ten years is a long time in a product cycle with no improvements. This wireless security business is really heating up and becoming very competitive if x10 whats to stay in the game they will have to make some much needed improvements in this system. It would also be nice to be able to call in and arm it remotely and check the status of the system with your cell phone and yes I know they have that new software OnAlert out but that requires having a computer that believe or not everyone does not have and an internet connection that once again everyone doesn't have, but practically everyone at least has access to a phone cell or land line. x10 are ya listening? ???

Tcj
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: tom j on October 06, 2006, 12:43:46 AM
Well I did a little checking and the x10 unit does not have an All Light On All Lights Off function sorry...

I just read the TR16A Owner's Manual (ftp://ftp.x10.com/pub/manuals/tr16a-om.pdf) and it *DOES* have All_Lights_On and All_Units_Off as LOCAL commands, but not as REMOTE. REMOTE can only handle Unit Codes 1-10, ON or OFF.

So, what's wrong with using a macro?  Even the CM11A can handle something this simple. 20 macros will allow some nice functionality.

Just reread your post I was thinking that you said it could remotely handle All Lights On All Lights Off. I apparently misread it. I didn't think you could do it remotely Humm where are my glasses  :-\
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: Duck69 on October 06, 2006, 11:51:37 AM
I agree with Tom j. it is about time for X10 to improve upon such products.

At present there ARE programs that allow you to call/phone your COMPUTER to control home automation.
Example: Saling Clicker and OvoLab Phlink are intergraded with Indigo software.

BUT ! It would be GREAT to be able to bypass the computer alltogether.

I would like to see features intergrated into the DS7000 to allow phone control and speak through when you receive a call.

I do understand why X10 made separate components to start with.

However it's time for X10 to begin combining some of them into a single unit with improvements.
There is no reason why a single unit couldn't have the functions of the DS7000 and TR16A without the associated problems.
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: tom j on October 08, 2006, 04:26:23 AM
I agree with Tom j. it is about time for X10 to improve upon such products.

At present there ARE programs that allow you to call/phone your COMPUTER to control home automation.
Example: Saling Clicker and OvoLab Phlink are intergraded with Indigo software.

BUT ! It would be GREAT to be able to bypass the computer alltogether.

I would like to see features intergrated into the DS7000 to allow phone control and speak through when you receive a call.

I do understand why X10 made separate components to start with.

However it's time for X10 to begin combining some of them into a single unit with improvements.
There is no reason why a single unit couldn't have the functions of the DS7000 and TR16A without the associated problems.


Yeah Amen brother! If they want to keep manufacturing the old console for a while at a lower price that's ok but they need to bring out a new more full featured model that has been completely updated. It would really be assuring that after you step off your flight and reach your location to call into the console and have it confirm that nothing is open and that system is functional and armed Ahh.... what a relief.

Tcj
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: KDR on October 08, 2006, 05:33:27 AM
I just got the RS 49-1000 alarm from Radio Shack to play with. It was made by X10 for them. It has phone dial in remote arm and disarm, 30 wireless zones and 2 hardwire zones. So I wouldn't think it would be hard to add the features to the DS7000.
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: Duck69 on October 08, 2006, 11:31:07 AM
Look here for other posts about the RS 49-1000

Home Security
Problems and Troubleshooting
Radio Shack 49-1000

http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=6939.msg59538#msg59538
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: tom j on October 08, 2006, 04:16:55 PM
I just got the RS 49-1000 alarm from Radio Shack to play with. It was made by X10 for them. It has phone dial in remote arm and disarm, 30 wireless zones and 2 hardwire zones. So I wouldn't think it would be hard to add the features to the DS7000.


Wooooooooooooooooooow seems like that would really be a nice upgrade only thing they forgot is the All Lights Off so if you're out of town and it trips you wouldn't have to leave all x10 controlled lights on in the event there was a break-in. My system tripped once when I was away on vacation but I had my Leviton transponder hooked up and it was just a simple matter of dialing up the transponder and issuing the All Lights Off command. Say by the way how much does this unit run I'll have to take a look. Almost completed my hybrid DSC system but it's been quite an expensive procedure. But non of my components are Chinese made so you have to pay considerably more but I think I've been able to buy some of the best stuff made mostly USA Canada and Taiwanese.

Tcj
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: tom j on October 08, 2006, 05:10:38 PM
I just got the RS 49-1000 alarm from Radio Shack to play with. It was made by X10 for them. It has phone dial in remote arm and disarm, 30 wireless zones and 2 hardwire zones. So I wouldn't think it would be hard to add the features to the DS7000.

Read some mixed reviews on the Radio Shack home page mostly range problems sounds familiar like the AHP! but please get back and tell us what you think of the unit also read the usual complaints especially concerning motion detectors false alarms and lack of sensitivity in the 2 movement mode. Really curious as to how you rate it, let us know what ya think!!

Tcj
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: KDR on October 08, 2006, 06:16:01 PM
Well as of right now I'm not using any motion sensors. With a house full of Alaskan Malamutes, motion sensors are not an option.

All in all the setup of the unit went OK. The instruction are not well written but with a background in X10 it went better then expected. The one problem I'm having is with the keychain remotes for arming/disarming. The RF is weak and the range less then the sensors. As soon as I come up with a plan to correct that I will post it here.

You have time delays you can set for the system to answer incoming call, sending out calls, entry and exit times. When the system does answer it asks you for your pin number. You press the code in on your phone and it will confirm it or tell you error. Once into the system you press 9,9,* it will tell you the status of your system or if there is an alarm trip it will tell you what zone was tripped. Another set of key entries will arm the system, another will disarm the system. Another nice feature is that you can turn on or off any module on a single house code. (all 16 unit codes) by phone. Once you enter the code on the phone the system will confirm back to you what you did. Turn on 12, Turn off 5... and so on. (not tried this yet)

Other options I haven't played with yet are timers, up to 12 pairs of timers. A pair is one on and one off. You can set times to daily, once or random. The book says the battery backup will supply up to 12 hours of backup. The unit will still turn on the siren and dial out during a power failure if the system is tripped.

Well I will post more as I learn more. Can't talk anymore.... got to go play.  ;D

Oh also you can control On/Off of any of the 16 unit codes from the units keypad.
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: tom j on October 08, 2006, 06:28:16 PM
Well as of right now I'm not using any motion sensors. With a house full of Alaskan Malamutes, motion sensors are not an option.

All in all the setup of the unit went OK. The instruction are not well written but with a background in X10 it went better then expected. The one problem I'm having is with the keychain remotes for arming/disarming. The RF is weak and the range less then the sensors. As soon as I come up with a plan to correct that I will post it here.

You have time delays you can set for the system to answer incoming call, sending out calls, entry and exit times. When the system does answer it asks you for your pin number. You press the code in on your phone and it will confirm it or tell you error. Once into the system you press 9,9,* it will tell you the status of your system or if there is an alarm trip it will tell you what zone was tripped. Another set of key entries will arm the system, another will disarm the system. Another nice feature is that you can turn on or off any module on a single house code. (all 16 unit codes) by phone. Once you enter the code on the phone the system will confirm back to you what you did. Turn on 12, Turn off 5... and so on. (not tried this yet)

Other options I haven't played with yet are timers, up to 12 pairs of timers. A pair is one on and one off. You can set times to daily, once or random. The book says the battery backup will supply up to 12 hours of backup. The unit will still turn on the siren and dial out during a power failure if the system is tripped.

Well I will post more as I learn more. Can't talk anymore.... got to go play.  ;D

Oh also you can control On/Off of any of the 16 unit codes from the units keypad.

Sounds impressive for 99 bucks! thanks for the report you know I did read about range problems what would you attribute that to the lack of an antenna on the main console? That's one thing I really like about the console of the ds7000 is the range I can control lights from 1/2 a block away! what would you estimate the range to be on your console to be, when you get a chance ok go ahead and play we'll see ya latter  ::)

Tcj
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: tom j on October 08, 2006, 06:30:43 PM
Oops forgot to also ask does this unit also have a listen in feature??

Tcj
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: KDR on October 08, 2006, 06:45:42 PM
I don't think its the console as much as the remote with the RF problem. The furthest point from one door sensor to console is 55 feet. The door sensor registers with the console OK and with AHP. Using the keychain remote from the same spot won't get received. Either less power or antenna difference in the remote is what I suspect.

By the way I am using the X10 - DS10A window door sensors, not the ones that came with the 49-1000. Main reason is that they were already mounted.

Yes on the listen in feature. Was impressed how sensitive it was.

I found out after I purchased the unit that it had been a return to the store unit. There were 4 zones programmed and the factory pin number had been changed. Luckily on this board was a post on how to reset the pin to default and I also did a memory clear on the unit. So far all the features have worked. My guess would be someone returned it maybe because of a range problem?
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: Oldtimer on October 08, 2006, 08:25:26 PM
Well I guess I didn't see that, only thing is it's not very answering machine friendly though it answers after thirty seconds and can cut off your messages will try to post that information, probably would make your answering machine useless while you where away if that was important to you.

Please see: Getting the (TR551 or TR16A) to Cohabit Amicably With An Answering Machine (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=10595.0)
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: TakeTheActive on October 08, 2006, 09:00:33 PM

This information was originally posted in 1999 to the Circuit Cellar site but was never echoed properly to the comp.home.automation site except in very abreviated form.  I'm reposting it here, edited, since it is still timely if you're trying to use an X10 telephone module with an answering machine.

Thanks oldtimer!  Definitely worth a "Helpful" vote from me!!!  ;D

Also see: TTA's X10 Troubleshooting Tips Thread [Updated: 2006/10/08]  (Read 937 times) (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=9899.msg57582#msg57582)

Section #3. ;)
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: tom j on October 10, 2006, 01:24:58 AM
I don't think its the console as much as the remote with the RF problem. The furthest point from one door sensor to console is 55 feet. The door sensor registers with the console OK and with AHP. Using the keychain remote from the same spot won't get received. Either less power or antenna difference in the remote is what I suspect.

By the way I am using the X10 - DS10A window door sensors, not the ones that came with the 49-1000. Main reason is that they were already mounted.

Yes on the listen in feature. Was impressed how sensitive it was.

I found out after I purchased the unit that it had been a return to the store unit. There were 4 zones programmed and the factory pin number had been changed. Luckily on this board was a post on how to reset the pin to default and I also did a memory clear on the unit. So far all the features have worked. My guess would be someone returned it maybe because of a range problem?

Are these the remotes that came with the unit? what about the old KR10a's x10 key chain remotes think you would get better range with them. Say Thanks for the feedback!!

Tcj
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: KDR on October 10, 2006, 06:11:58 AM
I tried the KR10A and had the same results, no signal getting to the unit. Before I change stuff or move things around I want to get a SH624 palm pad unit to try. Will order one soon. (was hoping to see a X10 special on them)

I know with the standard palm pad the range is better then the smaller remotes. My guess is antenna but have not opened one up to look at yet.
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: tom j on October 10, 2006, 06:26:56 PM
I tried the KR10A and had the same results, no signal getting to the unit. Before I change stuff or move things around I want to get a SH624 palm pad unit to try. Will order one soon. (was hoping to see a X10 special on them)

I know with the standard palm pad the range is better then the smaller remotes. My guess is antenna but have not opened one up to look at yet.

Got ta be the console then do you plan on doing a little surgery on it to check out the internal antenna? Read about very similar problems on the Radio Shack website I think that along with the flaky motion detectors were the main complaint. Just wondering why x10 just can't seem to get it right they always come so close but still manage to drop the ball in the end.

Tcj
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: KDR on October 10, 2006, 06:47:39 PM
I may go in and have a look to see what it has for an antenna. I did get 2 SH624's ordered today from Automatedoutlet for 8.95 each. Should have them by the weekend to try.
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: Oldtimer on October 10, 2006, 08:08:52 PM
I may go in and have a look to see what it has for an antenna. I did get 2 HS624's ordered today from Automatedoutlet for 8.95 each. Should have them by the weekend to try.

Did you mean SH624?
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: KDR on October 10, 2006, 08:17:45 PM
"YES"   Thanks Oldtimer...  I corrected my post. Sometimes the mind has no idea what the fingers are doing.
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: tom j on October 11, 2006, 12:15:39 AM
"YES"   Thanks Oldtimer...  I corrected my post. Sometimes the mind has no idea what the fingers are doing.

Let me know how it works out got a lot of extra stuff so I might put together a system for my sister. Seems like it could really be a nice setup with all the extra features wonder if x10 will ever introduce any of these on the PS561. Looking forward to hearing what you find out.

Tcj
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: p2459 on October 11, 2006, 07:49:01 PM
If I understand correctly, remote arming and disarming of the DS7000 is not via encrypted rolling codes,
such as with other systems. If this is true, anyone could capture your frequency via an inexpensive code
grabber and disarm the system whenever they choose. How secure is that?
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: KDR on October 11, 2006, 09:23:53 PM
Well in most cases if someone is going to go to that much trouble, they will get in no matter what you have. I heard a long time ago that locks and alarms are to keep honest people honest. They won't stop a crook.

Once you get past the door and window sensors, you have to get past 2 moving sensors... Pippin my 125 lbs male and Kiska may 90 lbs female. these 2 have full run of the house. (they think they own it) thats why I can't have motion sensors.
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: p2459 on October 11, 2006, 10:37:26 PM

If you recall the older style garage door openers had the static (single code or frequency) but
they changed the technology years ago to a randomly fluctuating code and so have nearly all
car alarm manufacturers. It is really not all that difficult to acquire a frequency, and if a thief is
familiar with X10 single code technology and is aware you have a X10 system (maybe it was your
cable or satellite TV installer who noticed your $10,000 plasma TV) he can add you to his list.
It's a scary thought, but it could happen. Perhaps there is a way to add rolling code technology
to the X10 system.
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: tom j on October 12, 2006, 06:31:01 PM

If you recall the older style garage door openers had the static (single code or frequency) but
they changed the technology years ago to a randomly fluctuating code and so have nearly all
car alarm manufacturers. It is really not all that difficult to acquire a frequency, and if a thief is
familiar with X10 single code technology and is aware you have a X10 system (maybe it was your
cable or satellite TV installer who noticed your $10,000 plasma TV) he can add you to his list.
It's a scary thought, but it could happen. Perhaps there is a way to add rolling code technology
to the X10 system.

X10 needs to address this issue but won't unless we all make a big fuss about it being able to simply use a x10 remote to disable your security system is cause for real concern!

Tcj
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: Puck on October 12, 2006, 07:00:56 PM
I just did the test, and I'm also concerned about this one.

I held an off button down on one of my palm pad remotes and was able to open a door without the DS7000 detecting it, plus I walked all around my house (tripping every ActiveEye) without it registering in the activity monitor.

I'm not sure what X10 could do about a jamming signal with the DS7000 (aside from a complete redesign to spread spectrum), but they should be able to help counter this in AHP. If there is someway AHP could detect multiple same-signals over a short time frame, then a macro could be triggered to set off the power horns through the power lines (bypass the RF & DS7000).

I'm certain the DS7000 doesn't listen for PLC signals but it would be nice if you could trigger the PANIC that way.

Until then, keep them cameras rolling (if the motion detectors can get their signal through to turn them on  :- )
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: KDR on October 12, 2006, 07:20:02 PM
I just tested this with the Radio Shack 49-1000 and get the same results. Any X10 remote transmitting while you trip a security sensor deactivates the sensor. All one would need is a remote... press a button and hold... then walk right in. Activity monitor does not record the security sensor event. If Activity monitor doesn't record the event I'm not sure changes to the program would help at all.

BIG PROBLEM FOR X10
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: Puck on October 12, 2006, 07:29:08 PM
If Activity monitor doesn't record the event I'm not sure changes to the program would help at all.

BIG PROBLEM FOR X10

Sorry, I should have started that the activity monitor continued to show the repetition of the button on the remote I was holding down. I'm sure when I opened the door or walked past the motion sensors that the 2 signals interfered with each other and didn't register, but once the door was open or motion detector stopped transmitting, the remote continued to register repeatedly. This is where a possible software detection could work. ( unless the burglar is real crafty with an awesome sense of timing ;) :) )


Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: KDR on October 12, 2006, 07:40:23 PM
There is no communication to the security console by way of PLC signals. If AHP software could detect what was going on it would have to send RF to the security console. As long as the remote button is held down it blocks the signals to AHP and the security console so no alarm would trigger.
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: Puck on October 12, 2006, 08:26:46 PM
Correct, RF would be disabled so the DS7000 would be useless, however AHP could still send ALL LightsOn/All Lights OFF "DIRECTLY" to the power lines through the CM15A... thus flashing lights and triggering power horns.... it could even send emails for external notification.
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: KDR on October 12, 2006, 08:37:38 PM
True... Didn't think of that.  Was more focused on the alarm portion of the system. I already have those things in place but are triggered by AHP getting the sensor RF signal. It will be interesting to see if X10 responds to any of this. Does anyone know if any of their other systems act this way. Like the 2000?
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: tom j on October 13, 2006, 02:37:56 AM
I just tested this with the Radio Shack 49-1000 and get the same results. Any X10 remote transmitting while you trip a security sensor deactivates the sensor. All one would need is a remote... press a button and hold... then walk right in. Activity monitor does not record the security sensor event. If Activity monitor doesn't record the event I'm not sure changes to the program would help at all.

BIG PROBLEM FOR X10

KDR You read my mind I was just getting ready to ask you that very question. I thought they would of addressed this in the newer 49-1000 they had to be aware of it. I think the problem is that the console is just not sophisticated enough to process two signals simultaneously so while it's trying to process one it's can attend to the other. And yes I agree this is a HUGE PROBLEM FOR X10 but will they do any thing about it I think we'll going to need an e-mail campaign what do ya guys think  ??? Boy x10 advertises how they recruit the best engineers from around the world to design their products, Yeah Right! someone needs to lose their job over this oversight really!

Tcj
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: Snoochy on October 13, 2006, 09:56:39 AM
I agree that this is a major issue as well.  Not likely something X10 will respond to very soon.  I will have to rethink my new system.  The key is not to tell anyone you have this system, so it is less likey for a theif to know (and of course don't put that silly decal in your window advertising you have an x10 system!!).

I think I am fortunate that I still have my old hard wired security system in place at home as well...I was thinking of adding a universal module on to the siren, so if I continue to arm my old system (which is not monitored), then the triggering of the siren can at least activate macros through PLC and email me as well (just in case).  Pretty sad that we have to have this kind of backup in place due to a flaw in X10!! >:(
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: rpatty on October 13, 2006, 11:34:24 AM
We recently purchased and installed the Radio Shack 49-1000. Our door and motion sensors are holdovers from the previous DS7000 system.  We have 3 remotes:  2 Keychain Remotes (One KR31A and One KR10A), and 1 larger remote. 
Pressing and holding a button on either of the keychain remotes did not cause the system to 'not alarm'.  Actually, it appears the keychain remotes transmit a single RF burst signal; even if a key is constantly depressed.  Even while holding the button down, and opening a window, the alarm still activated.
However, the larger remote did jam the sensor signals and seems to transmit a constant RF signal as indicated by the remote LED constantly flashing.  Sensors were ineffective.
As someone mentioned in an earlier post, if a burglar is semi-sophisticated enough to bring a remote (or any RF transmitter operating on the proper frequency) and jam our system; then they will get in no matter what you do. 
Just wanted to pass on our experience with the remotes and system jamming.

v/r
Bob P
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: p2459 on October 13, 2006, 12:19:43 PM
I'm sorry to say I think this is really pathetic, and unless a solution for this problem is found soon
I'm going to need to return all this equipment to the distributor. If it isn't bad enough that they
use fixed (static) codes instead of the preferred random (secure) code method, now we learn
that anyone can easily bypass an X10 system with little effort and expense.

There is something far more troubling about this problem that I discovered while doing tests,
but I hesitate to post it in case any thieves are reading these boards.

This problem is a disaster, and must be addressed asap.
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: tom j on October 13, 2006, 07:56:18 PM
I doubt very much that the thieves reading this forum knows where I live.
And even if they did, they don't have any idea what else I may have in store for them.
As has been stated over & over again. If someone really wants to get into your home they will !
Locks & Security systems are only a deterrant to persons who are not determined to get into that particular place.
They would rather move on to one that isn't locked or protected in any way.

Of all the people that live where you do.
You would have to be specifically singled out and in that case they would get in anyway.



Well that may be true but this is like leaving all your doors unlocked and rolling out the welcome mat!!
 >:( :-\
Tcj
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: tom j on October 13, 2006, 10:21:01 PM

Quote
Well that may be true but this is like leaving all your doors unlocked and rolling out the welcome sign!!
 >:( :-\
Tcj

 ??? I'm sorry but I don't quite understand what you're saying.
Please explain how this is as you've stated.

I was just saying that it would really make it easy real easy for some scumbag to break in if he had one of those remotes. I understand what your saying but if someone knew how to get around your system it would remove any possible intimidation they might of had. The whole thing about a security system is that the bad guy feels he might get caught but if he can circumvent your system he would feel much less intimidated. And I tend to disagree I feel a security system will definitely keep the bad guys out. My house was broken into and believe me if not for that little x10 system they would have cleaned me out had all my expensive stereo equipment unplugged by the time I got home with my door hanging off the hinges let me tell ya it's a sight you would never forget, but 4 large powerhorns and an aftermarket x10 outdoor siren and the fact that all my lights are x10 controlled proved to much for them my neighbors said my house looked alive and the *&^%$# left and didn't even get a dime. Believe me they wanted that stuff but they haven't been back and that's been two years. After that realizing how important a system was I started putting together a hybrid system a real super system so when I'm on vacation or at work I won't have to worry but if x10 was going to be my main system with this flaw I would really be concerned.

Tcj
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: tom j on October 14, 2006, 12:17:23 PM
I'm sorry to say I think this is really pathetic, and unless a solution for this problem is found soon
I'm going to need to return all this equipment to the distributor. If it isn't bad enough that they
use fixed (static) codes instead of the preferred random (secure) code method, now we learn
that anyone can easily bypass an X10 system with little effort and expense.

There is something far more troubling about this problem that I discovered while doing tests,
but I hesitate to post it in case any thieves are reading these boards.

This problem is a disaster, and must be addressed asap.

Yep Ditto to that Amen Brother!!  ;D

Tcj
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: tom j on October 14, 2006, 06:57:50 PM
I agree that the flaw should be fixed right away.

However, I'm not concerned at all about someone breaking in.

My housesitter Otis, is a German Shephard / Pit Bull mix.

I got some company to, 2 Smith & Wessons Alex and Bill one's in 40 cal and the other is a 9 mm and they got a pretty nasty bite to!!

Tcj

Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: Dan Lawrence on October 14, 2006, 08:15:06 PM
I agree that the flaw should be fixed right away.

However, I'm not concerned at all about someone breaking in.

My housesitter Otis, is a German Shephard / Pit Bull mix.

So, that's why your handle changed!!!  Obviously, Otis got pieved when he wasn't allowed to post here.
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: KDR on October 14, 2006, 08:22:02 PM
Quote
So, that's why your handle changed!!!  Obviously, Otis got pieved when he wasn't allowed to post here.

Wonders if he has another dog named "Duck"
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: tom j on October 15, 2006, 12:38:07 AM
Say what'a you guys think about bringing this to the attention of Dave Rye think it would do any good?? I got his e-mail address. Maybe if he got a couple dozen e-mails he might respond to our concerns a couple hundred would probably really get his attention!  ;D

Tcj

Dave Rye
Dave Rye is Sr. Vice President and Technical Manager of X10 (USA) Inc., and has been with X10 for 32 years. He is responsible for technical liaison between Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs) and X10's engineering staffs in Scotland, Hong Kong, and the USA
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: p2459 on October 15, 2006, 12:26:52 PM
Say what'a you guys think about bringing this to the attention of Dave Rye think it would do any good?? I got his e-mail address.

Feel free to post his email address.

If the company is made aware of the problem, and does nothing to correct it, and in 3 months there is
a break in & shooting, and the thief admits to using this method to gain entry, would there not be an
issue of liability? (The company is selling an alarm system under the false pretense that you and your
valuables are safe in your home when in fact they were advised the system can be easily bypassed)

I can imagine the attorneys that would be grinning from ear to ear wanting to take a case like this.

Perhaps someone should inform Mr. Rye of this.




Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: tom j on October 15, 2006, 02:07:27 PM
Say what'a you guys think about bringing this to the attention of Dave Rye think it would do any good?? I got his e-mail address.

Feel free to post his email address.

If the company is made aware of the problem, and does nothing to correct it, and in 3 months there is
a break in & shooting, and the thief admits to using this method to gain entry, would there not be an
issue of liability? (The company is selling an alarm system under the false pretense that you and your
valuables are safe in your home when in fact they were advised the system can be easily bypassed)


I can imagine the attorneys that would be grinning from ear to ear wanting to take a case like this.

Perhaps someone should inform Mr. Rye of this.




Hi thanks for your input here's Mr. Rye's e-mail address daverye@x10.com hope he doesn't change it with the flood of e-mails I'm hoping he'll get. Say the first one to get a response could you please post it so we can all see it. Remember that 20/20 piece last Friday how consumers can fight back well this is definitely a start, and hopefully something will come of it. And you're right I'm sure litigation would surely follow if this obvious design flaw isn't corrected. If we all stick together maybe we can really do something about this because I'm sure if it hasn't already happen that someone will eventually use this technique to gain entry to someone home the results of which I hate to think of.


Tcj

Dave Rye is Sr. Vice President and Technical Manager of X10 (USA) Inc., and has been with X10 for 32 years. He is responsible for technical liaison between Original Equipment Manufacturers (OEMs) and X10's engineering staffs in Scotland, Hong Kong, and the USA. He procures industry approvals (UL, FCC, etc.) for all X10 products, as well as those developed and manufactured by X10 for its OEM customers. He produces X10's literature, owner's manuals, and packaging. He is an industry expert and has written many articles on Home Automation and Security. He has acted as Technical Editor for several books on Home Automation. He has acted as a judge in HANA* Annual Mark of Excellence Awards. He has served on HANA's Board of Directors, has served on several HANA committees, and has held the office of HANA Secretary/Treasurer. He holds 6 Home Automation related patents, and others are pending.

In 1981, and again in 1991, the Johns Hopkins University awarded Rye recognition for developing an X10 based environmental control system. This system let individuals with severe disabilities control lights and appliances via X10 modules by using a puff 'n sip, or tongue switch, etc.

* HANA is now part of The Consumer Electronics Association (CEA).
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: tom j on October 18, 2006, 09:54:12 PM
Say guys you know the more I think about it more I'm thinking now that the problem might be the receiver in the console (PS561)  I'm now thinking that it's not capable of receiving two RF signals simultaneously. Any electrical engineers out there whats a receiver called that's capable of receiving and processing two RF signals at the same time, I used to know but can't think of it.

Tcj
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: Puck on October 18, 2006, 10:31:43 PM
Tom,

The problem is that the jammer (e.g. palm pad remote) is the same frequency as the security sensors. So the base only sees one signal, but the data on the carrier is now unrecognizable.


Update with signal pics 19-Oct-2006 15:22

Here are a few pics from a spectrum analyzer I took this morning.

Note: The pic with Both is how they appear in the air. They are both within the receiver's frontend bandwidth, so they cannot be interpreted seperately.

On a PLUS NOTE... I did see that the palm pad does not transmit continuously. I didn't measure the duty cycle however, but that means it's not constantly jamming the security sensors, so if they do get triggered during the palm pad's off time.... ALARM!!!
This may not mean a lot with regards to the door/window sensors (which would only be activated once), but multiple triggers from a motion detector could get recognized. "Do you feel lucky, PUNK?"   ;D

Nonetheless... still a downfall with the system.
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: KDR on October 22, 2006, 10:17:18 AM
An update from a post early on in this thread....  I got the security palm pad remotes and the RF output is better. With the keyfob remote I could not arm or disarm my alarm from my drive. With the palm pad it works about 10 feet beyond my drive. This works out good since I have my garage doors setup with X10 and the power for the doors also on X10, I can control everything from 1 remote pad in the car.
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: Charles Sullivan on October 22, 2006, 10:32:30 AM
Nice work Puck!
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: tom j on October 23, 2006, 12:24:47 PM
Tom,

The problem is that the jammer (e.g. palm pad remote) is the same frequency as the security sensors. So the base only sees one signal, but the data on the carrier is now unrecognizable.


Update with signal pics 19-Oct-2006 15:22

Here are a few pics from a spectrum analyzer I took this morning.

Note: The pic with Both is how they appear in the air. They are both within the receiver's frontend bandwidth, so they cannot be interpreted seperately.

On a PLUS NOTE... I did see that the palm pad does not transmit continuously. I didn't measure the duty cycle however, but that means it's not constantly jamming the security sensors, so if they do get triggered during the palm pad's off time.... ALARM!!!
This may not mean a lot with regards to the door/window sensors (which would only be activated once), but multiple triggers from a motion detector could get recognized. "Do you feel lucky, PUNK?"   ;D

Nonetheless... still a downfall with the system.


Great work Puck they obviously don't have engineers of your caliber working for x10 or they won't have let this get by them! Say would a reasonable remedy for something like this? I know none of the other wireless systems I checked that  have this affliction, is there a simple fix for it how do you think the other manufactures get around this. Thanks!!

Tcj
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: Puck on October 23, 2006, 02:18:20 PM
Tom,

Hardware wise, I don't think there is any way to prevent someone from jamming a low end transmitter / receiver (whether its X10 or another system).
Detecting this jammer through software (as Tuicemen has the X10dispatcher people doing) is the only practical solution for people already using the system. Hopefully X10 will add something similar in their next update of AHP or OnAlert. But this method (I believe) will only work if the jammer comes for an X10 source. If the software solution could detect a CW jammer it would be better.

But we all know how well our receivers pick up the signals from our remotes from every spot in our homes, every time.  ;) This would make breaking in with a small battery operated transmitter in your pocket a risky adventure at best.
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: tom j on October 24, 2006, 12:23:39 PM
Tom,

Hardware wise, I don't think there is any way to prevent someone from jamming a low end transmitter / receiver (whether its X10 or another system).
Detecting this jammer through software (as Tuicemen has the X10dispatcher people doing) is the only practical solution for people already using the system. Hopefully X10 will add something similar in their next update of AHP or OnAlert. But this method (I believe) will only work if the jammer comes for an X10 source. If the software solution could detect a CW jammer it would be better.

But we all know how well our receivers pick up the signals from our remotes from every spot in our homes, every time.  ;) This would make breaking in with a small battery operated transmitter in your pocket a risky adventure at best.



I just seems to me that if the receiver was more sophisticated that it could process more then one signal. I asked GE the maker of Simon if you could jam there system with one of their remotes the same way and they said you couldn't. And I know you said the little trasmitters broadcast on the same frequency but what about the hand held units that have supposedly 64 thousand combinations how does that work? Are these combinations all on the same frequency to? Thanks
Tcj 
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: Puck on October 24, 2006, 12:37:53 PM
...but what about the hand held units that have supposedly 64 thousand combinations how does that work? Are these combinations all on the same frequency to?

Yes, they are still transmitted on the same ~310MHz carrier, the code (once demodulated) lets the base know whether or not to act upon the command.

I asked GE the maker of Simon if you could jam there system with one of their remotes the same way and they said you couldn't.

You may not be able to jam their system using one of their remotes... but ANY receiver can be jammed.
The type of receiver will dictate if you can do it from a handheld device or if you have to pull a van up in front of the house. ;)

I haven't actually look into it (yet), but does anyone know what type of modulation X10 uses?
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: Charles Sullivan on October 24, 2006, 12:53:13 PM

I haven't actually look into it (yet), but does anyone know what type of modulation X10 uses?


Just timed short bursts of RF, whatever you call that.
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: Puck on October 24, 2006, 02:12:14 PM
X10 Uses Morse Code???  :D  :P

"To allow the operation of wireless keypads, remote switches, and the like, a radio protocol is also defined. Operating at a frequency of 310 MHz in the U.S. and a different frequency in the rest of the world, the wireless devices send data packets that are very similar to ordinary X10 powerline control packets. A radio receiver then provides a bridge which translates these radio packets to ordinary X10 powerline control packets."

Thanks Charles, I found this definition at "wikipedia". No modulation, just RF bursts.

udated: 24-Oct-2006 12:31
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: Charles Sullivan on October 24, 2006, 03:35:27 PM
Puck:
You can see what these look like in the Test Reports which are part of the FCC filings, e.g., for the CM17A Firecracker:
https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/cf/eas/reports/ViewExhibitReport.cfm?mode=Exhibits&RequestTimeout=500&calledFromFrame=N&application_id=93404&fcc_id='B4SCM17A'

Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: Puck on October 25, 2006, 12:41:14 PM
Thanks again Charles.

I also did some looking into the receiver section of the CM15A since it's schematic was available.
I'm going on the logical assumption here that the DS7000 receiver works the same.

BTW, the bursts of RF modulation method is called Amplitude-Shift-Keying (ASK).

The receiver creates an RSSI signal (Received Signal Strength Index) and compares this to the ambient RF noise it constantly picks up (if any). The changes from the ambient creates the X10 data. The ambient RF reference level is stored in a large capacitor (for a slow gradual change).

If someone were to try and jam the security system with a CW (Continuous Wave), the reference RF level would gradually rise and the receiver would accept it as the new ambient. Therefore, the jamming would only be for a few seconds before the receiver started working normally again. Of course this would not be true if the jamming signal completely saturates the receiver.

Now if someone were to hold down a palm pad button, the ambient RF would still rise but because it too is pulsing on & off, the receiver would still not be able to distinguish the correct sensor signal. But this rise in the ambient RF reference level (which is represented by a DC voltage) gives the possibility to a modification to test for an out-of-the-ordinary rise in the RSSI.

I'm no RF expert by any means (I've always stayed away from this black-magic) and I haven't done any physical tests yet, so if someone else is and sees a flaw in my interpretation and line of thinking for a solution, please join in.  :)
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: Puck on October 25, 2006, 08:19:24 PM
I looked at the CM15A's receiver and can see a difference in the signal on pin 10 of U1 on the receiver board. This signal is called CPC and is the RSSI signal. (BTW the schematic shows the 20 pin version of the chip but my CM15A had the 18 pin version.)

Watching this pin on a scope I can see a steady DC component (approximately 2.20 volts) when no X10 signal is present. When I transmit an X10 signal, I can see the pulses riding on top of the DC.

To make a steady DC signal which includes the received X10 signals, this line will have to feed an R-C circuit. To prevent causing the CM15A to not operate properly, I made a voltage follower using a 741 op-amp on a small circuit board and installed it inside and ran the output & ground leads to the outside.

As I get a chance I will add the necessary (external) circuit to these leads to create a DC level and see how it changes with a constant X10 signal being transmitted using a palm pad. I will compare this to a normal one time button press and see if the change is enough to make a comparator circuit to detect the jamming signal.

I opened up the DS7000's base and it looks like the receiver is made up of discrete components; so I'm not going near that guy without a schematic. That's why I'm experimenting with the CM15A.

As I do more and find out more, I will post what happens.
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: -Bill- (of wgjohns.com) on October 25, 2006, 09:55:41 PM
... I made a voltage follower using a 741 op-amp ...

Good old 741!  Like the 555 (timer chip), millions of uses and although there may be newer, there are few better!   ;D
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: TakeTheActive on October 25, 2006, 10:17:59 PM
...I looked at the CM15A's receiver and can see a difference in the signal on pin 10 of U1 on the receiver board. This signal is called CPC and is the RSSI signal. (BTW the schematic shows the 20 pin version of the chip but my CM15A had the 18 pin version.)

Watching this pin on a scope I can see a steady DC component (approximately 2.20 volts) when no X10 signal is present. When I transmit an X10 signal, I can see the pulses riding on top of the DC.

To make a steady DC signal which includes the received X10 signals, this line will have to feed an R-C circuit. To prevent causing the CM15A to not operate properly, I made a voltage follower using a 741 op-amp on a small circuit board and installed it inside and ran the output & ground leads to the outside.

As I get a chance I will add the necessary (external) circuit to these leads to create a DC level and see how it changes with a constant X10 signal being transmitted using a palm pad. I will compare this to a normal one time button press and see if the change is enough to make a comparator circuit to detect the jamming signal...

WOW!!!  :o

I *KNEW*, Right From the Start, That I Was Going to Like Having This New Guy Around. (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=10503.msg60593#msg60593)

8)

Please consider contributing your OBVIOUS EXTENSIVE ELECTRONICS KNOWLEDGE to "Community" Member Jeff Volp's thread in:

NEWSGROUP: Comp.Home.Automation  (Read 1522 times) (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=9769.0)

entitled:

X10 AGC and Insteon (http://groups.google.com/group/comp.home.automation/browse_frm/thread/f2212352979ebe9f/fb520677aa307098?hl=en#fb520677aa307098)

Thanks! :)
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: Puck on October 25, 2006, 10:37:13 PM
Thanks for the links TTA.

That thread looks like they are looking into ways of improving the PLC reception. I will look at more of the threads there now that I know about it, and contribute anywhere that I can be of help.
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: TakeTheActive on October 25, 2006, 11:05:53 PM
Thanks for the links TTA.

That thread looks like they are looking into ways of improving the PLC reception. I will look at more of the threads there now that I know about it...

More "GOOD STUFF" for you to "...know about..." ;)

Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: ArtClark on November 07, 2006, 03:39:27 AM
I"ve actually read through this thread a few times now and realized an idea from TTA would apply very well here.  It's not the
exact thing mentioned, but an offshoot.  This is what I used for a while while testing a problem, but I suppose you could use
it full time as long as you weren't worred about using a lot of RF commands.  If your alarm system is armed, normally you would
not be controlling a lot at that time anyway.

I took a door/window sensor (Older unit),  added a wall transformer for power, (No batteries, please) and triggered the sensor
with a standard 555 about every minute.  It was simple to have that set a flag.  (I only use OnAlert so not registering this sensor
was not an issue, but if you had an alarm console, I guess that would be...)

Running a timer in the CM15, Clear the flag, wait 1 minute and check.  If flag set, all is OK.  If not (I wait for two fails....)
then you can assume that power failed or the RF is jammed.  (This found two noisy intercoms that I disposed of...)

Very Quick and dirty, an it uses lots of RF commands (which could jam other things if the timing were wrong...) but does
provide an indication that signals are getting through to the CM15.  Just be sure you check twice and more than twice
the time interval from the 555.  (No Sync-up needed that way and provides insurance for timing errors.)

Would this be useable to help in an actual Alarm system or might this be likely tojam other sensors at the exact wrong time,
preventing an alarm and defeating the purpose?  I  have no idea which would be better but it worked for testing...

I must also say "Sorry" because this is a little Off-topic, but I didn't start this thought, so I had to chime in.
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: Puck on November 07, 2006, 08:51:00 AM
I must also say "Sorry" because this is a little Off-topic

Not OT at all; the thread is about understanding how the system can be defeated and how to counter that.

A watchdog timer certainly is a feasible method.
I plan to get back at this this weekend to test the RF generated DC levels... have to do something with the wires I have hanging out of the CM15A.  ::)
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: ArtClark on November 08, 2006, 01:31:04 AM
Please, Puck, keep us updated on this.

Your method would be very effective, and wouldn't tie up transmissions like a watchdog.  Even if the circuit was a little
complex, there are many of us who would find it worth the effort.

Good Luck.   (I think in your case, however, it's more of a matter of skill and experience...)
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: x10dispatch on November 09, 2006, 07:36:40 PM
Tuicemen mentioned this problem might be something i could detect in my program x10dispatcher so i looked into it.

Its sad that the problem exists and this really could use a hardware solution.

However people using my program already are leaving their computers on during the day to monitor their network and i think i have created a workaround.

I added a feature called flood protection which detects Rf remote signal flooding (at least the ones which show up in activity monitor).   I let you adjust the threshold settings but by default i consider around 8 signals within 20 seconds to be flooding.   Since 1 press of an x10 remote actually sends about 3 RF signals (as an insurance policy), the actual settings I made default are 20count/20secs.

It seems to be worthwhile for cm15a flooding but not sure about ds7000 flooding since im not using it, nor security remotes.  If someone is trying to flood your device using a regular x10remote i can detect that and send an email or msn alert.  What i dont know is whether a flooding attempt using a 'security' remote which is not been registered at the base will flood the base unit.

If anyone wants to test out the flood protection then you can download x10dispatcher here :
http://x10dispatcher.com/Downloads.aspx

Once you've got that, download the 366beta here and extract the exe over the original :
http://x10dispatcher.com/Downloads/Dispatch366beta.zip

Dont be intimidated by the many options and tabs but you will need to :
go into the misc tab and enable flood protection (and save settings), and then on the main screen switch to status tab to see when the flooding detection notices appear.... if they do then you could configure a macro to email on them.

I will include this feature in my next setup package but for now its beta (at above link).

Thanks lennymore for letting one more person hijaak your thread  ;D  Hope you figured out how to disarm remotely although i think it would require a hardware solution such as the one mentioned here :
http://www.accessha.com/forums/x10dispatch/1292-complete-control-ds7000-security-system-without-voiding-warranty.html
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: Puck on November 09, 2006, 07:56:57 PM
That's awesome x10dispatch.

What i dont know is whether a flooding attempt using a 'security' remote which is not been registered at the base will flood the base unit.

Yes it will... any simultaneous RF in the receiver's bandwidth will result in an invalid / rejected signal interpretation.

I don't know much about the software side of X10, but I'm thinking it will take hardware to detect a non-X10 jamming signal. Would be nice if there is a way.  ;)

Thank's for the software solution. At least that will help with preventing someone from using a cheap X10 remote to jam the system.  :)

Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: p2459 on November 09, 2006, 10:47:28 PM
  If someone is trying to flood your device using a regular x10remote i can detect that and send an email or msn alert. 

I'm not sure how email or msn alerts are going to help, unless you are carrying a cell phone
that can somehow receive the alert (assuming its on and has signal strength) I still think you
need the sirens and flashing lights. It is unlikely a thief will stick around long if they know they've
tripped an alarm and a neighbor may be noticing.

X10 Staff seem to be in denial about the fact that the remote does not have to be programmed to
the base to flood it. All whom I've spoken to about the issue insist a remote must first be programmed
to the base to interact with it, but this is simply not true. Tests have proven otherwise.

Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: x10dispatch on November 10, 2006, 01:18:43 PM
Yep, alerts are usually email/sms messages to cell phone (preferably a picture message from cam with alert text)... although it would simultaneously instant message you if you were online. 

I think ArtClark's solution (kind of like a cm15a heartbeat sensor) sounds promising but in order to do anything your computer would need to be turned on so it could send an email.   If you are going to leave your computer on you could use x10dispatcher's CM15a armed and disarmed modes in addition to ds7000 armed and disarmed modes.... 

When both are disarmed you can disable his timer via a phantom trigger (or use phantom trigger to set to lower interval like 1-2 mins heatbeat).  Dispatcher disarm via rf button would play disarm wav/notice and launch a macro to sendplc to his phantom trigger.

When you arm dispatcher (using an rf remote  :-[) it will play arm wav/notice and sendplc to a different phantom trigger which he can use to change the timer to make the heartbeat interval something like 30-60 seconds.

Then you get dispatchers almost 100% guarantee of picking up the x10remote flooding and ArtClarks logic can pick up most security remote flooding attempts without causing too much interference with normal x10 traffic.

Which brings you back to p2459's comment about deterrence.... sending an email wont deter the actual intruder since they wont even know it happened... and you dont have a clear/reliable plc environment to sound a powerhorn, so you would need to use computer to either sound off a warning sound or trigger a horn via usb/serial port somehow.   X10dispatcher includes a utility for setting the computers master volume level so you could crank up the volume and play an alert wav or audio message warning... I have several good enough warning wav files that you could work with.

Not to say this is perfect or even good enough... you should be able to at least work around in hardware... But if your leaving a computer on, then something like the setup above gives you pretty good coverage. 
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: Tuicemen on November 11, 2006, 02:52:06 PM
Hey welcome aboard x10dispatch !
I just got back from a deer hunt so I just had a chance to look at the flooding detection!
Just Awesome! X10Dispatcher just keeps getting better! ;) :D ;D
p2459
If you set a macro so a batch file can be triggered then Topic: Phone Control (AlertDialer) Addon  (Read 3236 times) (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=4776.0)  could send out a voice alert to any phone number!
You'd need a voice modem for it to work! ::)
Can't believe you missed that x10dispatch   ::) ;)
Perhaps once x10 adds the options to the SDK to detect security devices this will be even better
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: x10dispatch on November 11, 2006, 05:15:01 PM
Oops yep... he wants to deter the actual criminals though...

Perhaps you can also write a program to release a deadly canister of toxins to paralyse the intruder or poodle..  ;D

Good to see you back... hope you had fun.

-Dave


Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: Tuicemen on November 11, 2006, 06:23:07 PM
Quote
Good to see you back... hope you had fun
. Thanks Dave, I did! ;)
 
Well p2459  could set up X10dispatcher the way I have  create a macro which triggers AlertDialer or e-mail send and reads TTS.
 Type a message like "Warning your intrusion has been detected, Police have been called!"   
 The flooding triggers the e-mail/dialer and every flood detect sends the TTS so the warning message plays as a loop as long as the flooding remains !  ;)
Once the flooding stops so does the looping TTS! ;)
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: Puck on November 14, 2006, 02:22:11 PM
UPDATE: I did start playing around with the signals from the CM15A this past weekend. I don't have any real progress on that to mention, but in the process of looking for information, I did happen across this:

KESRX04 Radio Receiver from Mitel Semiconductor uses Patented Technology to Increase Signal Integrity in Wireless Systems (http://news.zarlink.com/archive/pre2000/1999/Feb/22/news1.htm)

Instead of trying to do this manually, I'm gonna look at the possibility of replacing the receiver card with one containing this guy.

Notice the date of that article? When did the CM15A come out...2004?
I wonder if HiMark had a flashy 4-for-1 internet AD on their receiver IC during the design stage of the CM15A?  ;) :D
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: ArtClark on November 15, 2006, 12:18:35 AM
Puck, I see what you mean.  That looks like it would be a great help..  I just wonder, do you think that it might also improve the jamming effect from a correct transmitter?  if it can pull a signal 14db out of the noise (Interference...) it must be using some way of detecting "THE" signal it wants.  This is great, if the signal it wants isn't the same as the interference signal.  I would think that for anything other than an X-10 transmitter, absolutely the way to go.  I have this nagging thought that where, without this, the transmission from, say, a palmpad, would not be strong enough to override another transmission, with this, it might receive the palmpad transmission better, making the jamming with the "Good X-10 Signal" even more effective.

I Must point out, through my entire life, (Other than req'd college courses...) I have avoided working with radio, so the processes involved with jamming, phasing, and different modulation methods are on my "AVOID AT ALL COSTS" lists.  I wouldn't even attempt what you are doing, just because it's too far out from what I do. 

Having said that, is the point I just typed valid?  I don't have the radio tech knowledge to easily find out but I have the feeling that you would have a better basic insight as to the possibilities..

Just a thought......

(I bet a lot of the internals for the CM15A were on "sale"   ;D )
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: Puck on November 15, 2006, 02:33:23 AM
I just wonder, do you think that it might also improve the jamming effect from a correct transmitter?

This is what x10dispatch's software can detect. A repeating TRUE X10 signal can be detected via software. But this hardware (the IC) would pretty much only detect an inband continuous transmission (a CW, modulated or not). So I think the best solution is a SW & a HW combination.


Quote
I Must point out, through my entire life, (Other than req'd college courses...) I have avoided working with radio, so the processes involved with jamming, phasing, and different modulation methods are on my "AVOID AT ALL COSTS" lists.  I wouldn't even attempt what you are doing, just because it's too far out from what I do. 

I too have avoided RF as much as I possibly can. I'm a digital guy myself, I prefer my electronics to be binary... ON or OFF, no magic. Fortunately, X10's chosen transmission method is so basic, that I don't mind experimenting.  ;)

Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: KDR on November 15, 2006, 06:15:19 AM
I have not tried this yet but if you have security cams in your system mounted on Ninjas and call in remotely to your system to view a cam, then pan it to look around you would be jamming your own system since the Ninja is RF and the signal it sees is a stream of RF from the CM15A. The activity monitor shows a transmission of RF every second when using the pan tilt controls in iWitness. The pan tilt hand held remote is a bit different. Activity monitor shows receiving RF but not the steady 1 second stream. Its report is a bit sporadic reporting the RF only a few times as mush as 10 seconds apart.

Puck do you have any cams on ninjas? Was thinking it would be interesting to see what a aspectrum analyser would show the RF was doing.
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: Puck on November 15, 2006, 09:48:45 AM
No, I don't have any Ninjas for my Cams, and wasn't aware they were RF also.

So good point, you would be temporarily jamming your own security whenever you move them. But if the Ninja signal is sending every second, I think the chance that it's transmitting the same time as a security sensor would be slim. But it would be nice to see their signal realtime also.
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: Tuicemen on November 15, 2006, 08:40:53 PM
Using the ninjas from inside AHP will not trigger a flooding alert in tests I ran! ;)
See Topic: Flooding!  (Read 281 times)    (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=10680.msg62408#msg62408)
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: ArtClark on November 16, 2006, 02:21:30 AM
Boonk!!   Puck, that was me hitting myself in the head.  Thanks for pointing out the obvious to me.  With both HW that's signal selective and SW to detect jams, my thought becomes moot.  SW works better, because of improved RF of good signals, while HW improvement makes good and bad signals more diferentiated.

Now I got it!   ;D

Now I must check into X-10 dispatcher a little more deeply......
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: KDR on November 16, 2006, 05:28:45 AM
Thanks Tuicemen for checking it out. It was helpful :D  I will have to download X10Dispatch and give it a try.
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: Tuicemen on November 16, 2006, 02:29:41 PM
Not a problemKDR, as Now I know myself! ;) :D ;D
It's nice to know macros don't seem to trigger the alert.
I haven't tested a real long macro with multiple dims  ::) ???
That might trigger the detection ,but if it does one can just add a 1 second pause in the macro.
That would stop Dispatcher from seeing it as a flood! ;)
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: LW on February 22, 2007, 11:31:29 PM
Hi everyone,

I've tried to follow this conversation, and it is clear to me that you guys are very, very smart, but I'm a newbie and I get lost at some points, such as: "Test Reports which are part of the FCC filings", "Good old 741!", "a voltage follower using a 741 op-amp", "the 'Good X-10 Signal'", "A repeating TRUE X10 signal." I'm not sure if poodles are getting paralyzed or if Ninjas are being flooded.  ;) :P ??? I'm not sure I want to know all these things; what I am concerned to ask is, is it fixed? I wonder because it hasn't been discussed since November. If I download, install, and configure X10Dispatcher and AlertDialer, will the flooding that results from holding down the buttons on an X10 remote be treated as an intrusion? Will there be four phone calls, but from the computer instead of the DS7000? Will a siren sound and lights flash? Will the DS7000 need to be manually reset along with the rest of the modules when the burglar who's holding down buttons on the remote releases them, or is it automatically returned to operational, armed status? I know I am being very dense. Thanks for your patience! I appreciate your help.
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: Tuicemen on February 23, 2007, 09:40:45 AM
LW:  
No ! X10 has not nor do I expect them to fix it if at all any time soon!
The flooding doesn't disarm your system it merely swamps it with noise so It can't see signals it is looking for!
No reset of your system is needed (or should be) after the flooding has stopped!
If using X10Dispatcher & AlertDialer, The phone calls will come from your PC as the DS7000 will be flooded with RF noise

X10Dispatcher can trigger a number of things as a result of the flooding how ever you can't send a X10 command to a power horn as the signal gets lost in the flood (if your lucky it might get threw)!
You can have it send a phone call via AlertDialer,e-mail you, send you pictures(e-mail or web site),play wav files or trigger other programs to do any number of things
I use X10wavPlayer to play MP3s,TTS or wavs X number of times instead of X10dispatchers sounds (personal preference).
The Idea of detecting flooding and doing something about it is new, so some fine tuning is needed!
One draw back as you pointed out X10Dispatcher (http://x10dispatcher.com/) will continue to execute your programs as long as the flooding continues so some fine tuning is needed!
X10WavPlayer (http://www.angelfire.com/in2/ontkoi/X10AHP/X10WavPlayer.html) has a coded so only one instance of itself can run at a time (next version it will be increased to 2 so Caller id can be announced)
AlertDialer (http://www.angelfire.com/in2/ontkoi/X10AHP/Alertdialer.html) doesn't have any such coding Yet!(next release will) Although you are limited to only one call out at a time on the modem!

Since fine tuning my X10Dispatchers flood detection it has not gone off (except in testing) ;) :D ;D
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: Rabbit on May 06, 2008, 12:16:46 PM
I am out of town right now and I have the DS7000 armed. If the alarm goes off it dials my phone and I can "listen in" otherwise listen to the alarm going off. If I somehow determine it was a false alarm, how do I turn off the alarm before the 4 minutes is up or at least reset the alarm if it ends after the 4 minutes? As it is I am assuming all the lights will remain on. How do I do the all lights off remotely hence resetting the alarm? Anyone have experience with this? OldTimer? Thanks.

You can't turn it off remotely those lights will remain on until you get back home! Now there is a way around it you're need that x10 telephone transponder see link below call and check but I'm almost sure it has a All Light On All Lights Off

Tcj

http://www.x10.com/products/x10_tr16a.htm

You can turn the lights off if you have enabled Remote Desktop in XP or Vista and you have set Remote Desktop correctly or the MyHouse Online application. It also requires that the computer at home be left on - assuming you have AHP...
Title: Re: Disarming DS7000 remotely?
Post by: Tuicemen on December 06, 2012, 01:51:59 PM
I know this is an old thread but with new smartphones it is possible to send info to your Home PC.
With the x10 interface connected to the PC and it running with PC Companion running One could send a usercommand to PCC that sends an AlllUnitsOff signal.

This would turn every thing off on the Security consoles house code.
Of coarse you'd need an Android Phone running TAC

I'm sure some of the other apps available for smartphones could do something simular.
 >!