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🖥️ActiveHome Pro => Plug-ins => OnAlert => Topic started by: KDR on September 16, 2006, 09:47:49 AM

Title: RF Transmission
Post by: KDR on September 16, 2006, 09:47:49 AM
I have the CM15A, AHP with Smart Macros plug in. I run with the Transceived House Codes set to NONE because I use a V572AB for all my RF. (No security consol at this time)

With the above settings if I operate the DS10A within 10 feet of the CM15A it triggers fine. Any further away then that it does nothing.

Looking for some info on how the RF is received. Will the RF from the DS10A only be picked up by the CM15A or will a TM751 also pick up the signal? Is this what the second antenna inside the CM15A is for?

The few tests I made so far indicate that only the CM15A will pick up the signal. What options are there to increase range?
Title: Re: RF Transmission
Post by: Brian H on September 16, 2006, 10:05:59 AM
The second antenna is for transmitting a signal to things like a Ninja Mount and maybe security signals; I have no experience with the security plug in. Other Transceiver modules including your V572AB will see the RF from the DS10A but should not process them as the sensor sends security messages.
Try the CM15A antenna Horizontal that sometimes helps. There are warranty voiding modifications like adding an external antenna to a CM15A. I did one myself and it made things much better range wise.
Title: Re: RF Transmission
Post by: KDR on September 16, 2006, 10:19:42 AM
Thanks Brian...  Kinda of what I thought. Somewhere, I thought on X10 site I seen a booster or repeater for security signals. Can't seem to find it now. anyone else see this?
Title: Re: RF Transmission
Post by: KDR on September 16, 2006, 11:07:29 AM
Found it!  The SR731 Repeater. Anyone out there that has one that can share some input on this unit? Can it be setup to only repeat security signals and not automation remote signals?
Title: Re: RF Transmission
Post by: Charles Sullivan on September 16, 2006, 04:01:04 PM
Found it!  The SR731 Repeater. Anyone out there that has one that can share some input on this unit? Can it be setup to only repeat security signals and not automation remote signals?


I just got a SR731 today and haven't had a chance to do much testing yet.  However there are no provisions for selecting the types of signals it will repeat.  The only setting is a channel selector switch for use if you have more than one SR731 in your house.
Title: Re: RF Transmission
Post by: KDR on September 16, 2006, 06:34:38 PM
After you get a chance to play with it awhile please do post what you think about it. I will be looking forward to what you have to say about it.
Title: Re: RF Transmission
Post by: Charles Sullivan on September 16, 2006, 07:38:34 PM
After you get a chance to play with it awhile please do post what you think about it. I will be looking forward to what you have to say about it.

OK, will do.
Title: Re: RF Transmission
Post by: jannison on September 17, 2006, 11:57:49 AM
Until now I have not used the "Receive" function of the CM15A. I recently obtained the DS10A and KR10A units.
The "Receive" range appears to be about 10 feet (line of sight) in relation to the Door/Window or Keychain units. Is this VERY poor distance range typical???
If so these units go back!

John
Title: Re: RF Transmission
Post by: RJMiller on September 17, 2006, 12:35:17 PM
Until now I have not used the "Receive" function of the CM15A. I recently obtained the DS10A and KR10A units.
The "Receive" range appears to be about 10 feet (line of sight) in relation to the Door/Window or Keychain units. Is this VERY poor distance range typical???
If so these units go back!

John


I have a retail space 50' deep with a front door and back door using the window/door controls.  The CM15A is located about 20' from front and 30' from back... no problem.  Course the RF repeater is quite cheap if needed.

  RJ
Title: Re: RF Transmission
Post by: Charles Sullivan on September 17, 2006, 12:42:54 PM
Until now I have not used the "Receive" function of the CM15A. I recently obtained the DS10A and KR10A units.
The "Receive" range appears to be about 10 feet (line of sight) in relation to the Door/Window or Keychain units. Is this VERY poor distance range typical???
If so these units go back!

John


With the CM15A plugged upright in a wall socket and the antenna extended horizontally, I'm getting about a range of about 45 feet line-of-sight with a DS10A.

Title: Re: RF Transmission
Post by: jannison on September 17, 2006, 07:29:27 PM
Thanks for the feedback about the limited receiving range problem I am having.  It appears that the receiver may be defective.........now to see if it is still under warranty. This is the first time I had need for the receiver function.

John
Title: Re: RF Transmission
Post by: nswint on September 21, 2006, 09:13:27 AM
With my antenna up I only have about 6 - 8 feet direct line of sight range with the Security Remote and the DS10A.  With the antenna horizontal it doubles.  The sr731 is picking up all the rf signals from remotes and door sensors (I see the flashing lights), I don't know if it's injecting them into the powerline.  I don't see them on the AH Activity Monitor.
Title: Re: RF Transmission
Post by: KDR on September 21, 2006, 09:58:04 AM
I don't think the SR731 puts it on the power line. I think it resends the RF by way of RF to the CM15A and then to the program. Is this correct? (Still waiting for my SR731 to come in.)
Title: Re: RF Transmission
Post by: Charles Sullivan on September 21, 2006, 03:20:34 PM
I don't think the SR731 puts it on the power line. I think it resends the RF by way of RF to the CM15A and then to the program. Is this correct? (Still waiting for my SR731 to come in.)

Yes, that's correct.
Title: Re: RF Transmission
Post by: nswint on September 21, 2006, 09:57:40 PM
I put the SR731 in the fuzzy 7 - 10 foot zone from the CM15a and it helped slightly.  I unplugged the SR731 and the CM15A only picked up what was coming from 2 Motion Sensors in the bathroom in the next rooms above and below the receiver.  It picked up the remote only after I held it high up in the adjacent room.

Plugging the SR731 only helped the CM15A slightly.  Me thinks the Extended "X10" Code from the security units isn't readily picked up by the CM15A.  That's why I believe X10 is pushing the SR731.
Title: Re: RF Transmission
Post by: Duck69 on September 21, 2006, 10:15:26 PM
I wonder if there is something blocking/interfering with your RF.
In the hallway of my house there is a Swamp Cooler drop down for vents that branches off to 4 rooms. Made of metal.
There are other obstacles as well and I had to be very careful in the placement of my RF receiver.
You may want to take a look around to determine if there is an obstacle somehare.
Title: Re: RF Transmission
Post by: Ant on September 23, 2006, 12:57:27 PM
I have had similar problems with the CM15a not receiving (or intermittently receiving) the Sensor signal.  Sometimes the Door will indicate as open and sometimes it is ignored.

However, I have found a very simple way to improve reception on the CM15a.

1: Go to kitchen
2: Put the kettle on
3: Make some Tea
4: Take a length of tin foil - 1.5 feet long
5: Wrap the foil around the CM15a antenna about half way up the antenna
6: Wrap a few times but leave about 8 inches unwrapped and pointing sideways (see Autocad drawing below).
7: Note: you can buy the heavy duty foil which is thicker and more sturdy

When you are done the antenna should be like a flagpole and the foil the flag.  My sensors now are recognised EVERY time (The flag greatly improves reception.


    |-|
    | |-------------------------
    | |                        |
    | |   Tin Foil Flag     |
    | |                        |
    | |-------------------------
    | |
    | |
    | |
    | |
    | |
    | |   <-----CM15a antenna
Title: Re: RF Transmission
Post by: JMac on October 05, 2006, 11:56:05 PM
Well for what it's worth.  I now have decent RF Transmission on my CM15A.  I move the computer as far away from the interface as the USB cable allowed, unplugged my Dell Axim USB, placed the CM15A in the horizontal, and now I get about 30 feet.  I was having problems installing the sensors for the security plugin and the SH624 would not arm or disarm the plugin (as indicated on the status bar or activity page) past about 10 feet from the interface.  I do have a SR731 repeater, but that didn't seem to help with extending the range.  I'm not sure exactly what improved the range but I'm glad it's better.
Title: Re: RF Transmission
Post by: Tuicemen on October 08, 2006, 09:33:44 PM
Doing a search for RF reception will turn up lots of helpful advice!
I have no problems with my security sensors one 55 feet away in a wooden shed!
[li]I have done no mods to the CM15A [/li]
[li]Antenna is straight up[/li]
[li]CM15A is on a different circit then the PC[/li]
[li]CM15A is located on the second floor (hight does make a difference)[/li] ;)
[li] PC and CM15A are as far away from each other as the usb cable will allow[/li]
[/color]
[/list]
Title: Re: RF Transmission
Post by: julian on October 18, 2006, 04:17:15 PM
I bought the repeater a few days ago, plugged it in, and everything started acting up!
I should mention I have AHP, smartMacros, iWitness, myHouse, and onAlert, using 3 House codes (A,B,P).
I also have a phase coupler (SmartHome). As soon as I plugged the repeater in, my motion sensors OFF position would trigger most of the lights to turn off (as opposed to just the sensor's address). I don't know what causes this to happen, but as far as I'm concerned the repeater is just a rip-off. Not only does it repeat, it blasts the same signal to all units it finds. And it doesn't happen with just one motion sensor - with most of them (and I have 11 of them!). In any event, there is nothing more embarrassing than having company over for dinner and have all your lights turn off. I was able to turn it into a "Halloween feature" I created, but this repeater is really a poor, poor module. Either that or the combination between AHP, repeater, and SmartHome's coupler is deadly!

Title: Re: RF Transmission
Post by: -Bill- (of wgjohns.com) on October 18, 2006, 10:26:34 PM
I bought the repeater a few days ago, plugged it in, and everything started acting up!

What repeater did you buy?
Title: Re: RF Transmission
Post by: Brian H on October 19, 2006, 07:05:29 AM
I have seen reports that the HCA02 has issues with the CM15A in some installs. My Smarthome has issues with two way AM14As.
Title: Re: RF Transmission
Post by: julian on October 19, 2006, 01:25:03 PM
What repeater did you buy?
SR731 Smart RF Repeater. Before this I had a Coupler/Repeater combo from SmartHome. That one did the same thing, so I exchanged it for a Coupler only. I thought that adding an X10 repeater would work, but clearly it did not. Any thoughts on how I could use this repeater successfully?
Thanks!
Title: Re: RF Transmission
Post by: rhunt on November 27, 2006, 12:54:58 PM
I also am having huge issues with the range of the 15a.   I also bought the repearter from x10 in hopes of picking up my sensors (furthest is about 30 feet away).   My security console picks them up just fine, but the 15a doesn't see a thing.

The repeater does nothing that I can see... except cause double signals to occur.

I will try the aluminum foil trick.  Sounds like they should have just put on a telescoping antenna instead of the current one.

Title: Re: RF Transmission
Post by: JMac on January 03, 2007, 11:55:02 AM
Somewhere in the bowels of the forum there is a page on "Boosting Signal Strength" which involves placing a 19 inch wire on a DS10A to increase RF transmission.  I put a 16 5/8" (just what was available at the time) wire on the top of a DS10A and my security macro finally functioned.  That is, the CM15A received the signal for use by OnAlert.  The security console had been functioning and receiving all along.  I was pleasantly surprised.  Anyone else tried this?
Title: Re: RF Transmission
Post by: Puck on January 03, 2007, 12:12:20 PM
Somewhere in the bowels of the forum there is a page on "Boosting Signal Strength" which involves placing a 19 inch wire on a DS10A to increase RF transmission.

The link for the passive repeater can be found in TakeTheActive's post here: Re: Project To Increased Range CM15A (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=9470.msg56198#msg56198)

I haven't tried this yet, but I will see if it helps improve the reception of a motion sensor in my garage.
Title: Re: RF Transmission
Post by: Walt2 on January 08, 2007, 03:11:11 PM
The sr731 is picking up all the rf signals from remotes and door sensors (I see the flashing lights), I don't know if it's injecting them into the powerline.  I don't see them on the AH Activity Monitor.

My SR731 doesn't seem to work at all with my CM15A.  As you stated, the AH Activity Monitor shows nothing.  This is even when I use the "test button" on the SR731, which generates a M1 "on" and M1 'off'.   Nothing in the Activity Monitor.

IMHO, the CM15A is not compatible with the SR731.  Possibly because the SR731 "tags" its repeated RF signals, as repeats, and the CM15A "sees" these tags as making the RF signal invalid (and therefore ignores them).
Title: Re: RF Transmission
Post by: Walt2 on January 08, 2007, 03:17:33 PM
SR731 Smart RF Repeater. Before this I had a Coupler/Repeater combo from SmartHome. That one did the same thing, so I exchanged it for a Coupler only. I thought that adding an X10 repeater would work, but clearly it did not. Any thoughts on how I could use this repeater successfully?
Thanks!

I got one of the Smarthome coupler/repeaters, the 4826B, and found it totally incompatible with my X10 2-way modules (LM14A).

I have never found a way to get the SR731 to work with the CM15A.  For my home, I absolutely had to use the SR731 to get full RF coverage.  My "fix" was to disable the Transceiver functions in the CM15A, and use separate, standalone, Transceivers.
Title: Re: RF Transmission
Post by: lslavik on January 09, 2007, 06:58:34 AM
My range is about 5 ft. Anything more and the CM15A does not see any security devices. Tried a SR731, but it did not help. I have explained this to X10 support 4 times now and I keep getting a different tech who 'doesn't understand my problem.. Could I explain it again..'. Sounds like a run-around to me. Anyone thinking about buying onAlert should reconsider!!! >:(
Title: Re: RF Transmission
Post by: Billaban on January 09, 2007, 09:41:06 AM
See below.  This works very well.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: dave w on December 28, 2006, 11:32:05 AM
Get yo' solderin iron and dremel tool warmed up!

http://www.accessha.com/howto_fconnector_page1.html

Mod for CM15A

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?parentPage=search&pg=3&summary=summary&cp=&productId=2103641&accessories=accessories&kw=antenna&techSpecs=techSpecs&currentTab=summary&custRatings=custRatings&features=features&origkw=antenna&support=support&tab=support

Good antenna for the attic

http://www.radioshack.com/search/index.jsp?kwCatId=&kw=pl-259&origkw=PL-259

Coax and "F" cnnector for CM15A


Done.  I hung the antenna from the apex of the rafters in the attic and used 50' of coax to get to the CM15A.  Appears to work fine. 
About $60 for all the hardware. 

WOW.  I've got at least 80 yards of exterior range using a HR12A controlling my PR511 in front of the house.  Could be farther but it is hard to see a light on a
bright sunny Maryland day.   I guess I'll find out fairly soon if any of my neighbors have X10 systems.

Thanks for all the help.  HNY.

Billaban
Title: Re: RF Transmission
Post by: bph663 on January 12, 2007, 03:24:56 PM
Since I rely on these forums to help me out, I'll post my experience and the solution that worked for me.

I had already been using the cm15a and TM751's. I had tried removing the TM751's when I upgraded to the cm15a from the cm11a, but the reception / range of the cm15a wasn't adequate.
I left the TM751's in place.
Then I got the OnAlert plugin to integrate the security devices I already had. The reception range of the cm15a was not adequate, even though my security console had no problems receiving the signals from the security sensors. I tried using an SR731 rf transceiver that I already had from another package deal. But it did not help.

I only had 1 out of 4 door sensors working with the cm15a, and it was the closest, through a few walls and about 20' away.

So I twisted the white antenna tube off of the cm15a, it was not glued, just came off with no problem, leaving the antenna wire visible.
I stripped about 1/4" of insulation from the end of the antenna wire and soldered on a 4 ft wire extension.
I got one of the wires from some phone line I had... 4-conductor solid copper phone line (in-wall type).
I ran the wire from the cm15a (which is plugged into an outlet behind a chair) about 1ft horizontally to the trim of a closet doorway, and then vertically along the edge of the door trim.
The wire is located where the trim meets the wall.
The next closest sensor then started working.
Then I stripped about 2 ft of the insulation from the end of the wire.
All sensors were then working.
I then added a longer length of bare wire to extend up and across the doorway along the edge of the trim.
Distance from antenna to farthest sensor is about 60 ft.






 

Title: Re: RF Transmission
Post by: Puck on January 12, 2007, 04:19:12 PM
bph663: Welcome to the forum. Even though what you did here has improved your range (and lets face facts... doing ANYTHING to the CM15A's antenna will improve it), from a technically point of view, if your X10 setup has good reliability it will be purely luck.  ;) Let me explain why.

The receiving methodology of the CM15A is an RSSI receiver (Received Signal Strength Index). What this means is the CM15A measures the ambient RF noise that the antenna picks up, and it compares changes to this in order to extract the X10 signals. With an antenna that is greater than 1/4-wavelength, you introduce the ability of the antenna to pick up lots of unwanted (Non-X10) signals that are outside the 310MHz range. With the length of wire you attached, your antenna is peaking at ~60MHz. You're not far off from the FM radio & CB Radio spectrum. Lots of ambient & transient RF noise. This has the potential to swamp the receiver to the point it can no longer detect changes.

I think you will find that at least doing what teez67f did here (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=9470.msg65411#msg65411), you will get better range and better reliability

My $0.02.  ;)
Title: Re: RF Transmission
Post by: bph663 on January 13, 2007, 11:11:43 AM
Hi Puck,
Thanks for the link. I had not noticed it before. I'm off to get my cutters!
-b
Title: Re: RF Transmission
Post by: Puck on January 13, 2007, 11:28:36 AM
The failure analyst in me comes out now and then I look at ways that things can fail.  ::)

Give the 1/4-wave length addition a try, and if you find your other antenna is still better, then reconnect it. Just wanted to shed some light on the theory behind the receiver and the importance of the correct antenna setup.  ;)

When you add the 1/4-wave addition to the antenna (as per the link), remember that where you have the CM15A plugged in will make a difference in the range for some directions. That's why some of us use the extended coax connected antenna to get it up high and into the most effectice position for our setups. At the same time keeping the CM15A plugged into an clean circuit and having the USB within reach of the PC.

Title: Re: RF Transmission
Post by: bph663 on January 13, 2007, 04:31:11 PM
Works fine. Thanks for the help and thanks to teez67f for his post.
(I did notice the effects of positioning the antenna - whether in proximity to pc noise or something else, is not always obvious.)