X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Topic started by: brunetmj on November 26, 2006, 05:41:06 PM
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Hello everyone, I new to the forum and new to X10 products.I did however do a search on this forum on how X10 works with GFI circuit breakers and found nothing.
I have read , while researching X10 ,that GFI protected circuits can interfere with X10 commands.Has anyone experienced this?
I recently built a mud room extention to my kitchen but had to power it from a underground cable and consequently used a GFI circuit breaker.. I wired outdoor motion sensor floodlights as well as an indoor motion detector contolled by a double throw switch.
The problem with this arrangement is there is no manual way to control the lights. Therefore I purchased a X10 starter kit as well as X10 flood lights.I later discovered the issue about GFI circuit breakers. Does anyone know if this will be a big problem? Should I also buy some sort of signal booster?
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I have many X10 modules and an RR501 running off of GFCI outlets with no problem. However non of these GFCIs are the newer Arc Fault types.
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My house is new just built this summer.
Currently have setup a PLW02 3-Way wall switch and 3-WS467 Wall Switches
I have both Arc Fault and GFI breakers.
I have not had any problems controlling those switches.
For that matter no problems at all controlling any of the X10 devices connected so far.
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Thank's everyone. Thats good to know. By the way here is a link that implied some GFI circuit breakers may be a problem.
Glad to know not everyone has had these problems..
http://www.smarthome.com/solution12.html
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It should work ok, if not get a different brand of GFI.
Gil Shultz
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You will always find a bad GFI or Arc fault breaker in a bunch(even the same brand)! :(
I've had no problems with GFIs that I can remember but I have noticed noisy GFI and Arc fault breakers while building my retirement home (you can usually hear the noise from a bad one). Best to replace them as soon as you notice them!
While on the topic some CFLs have also been found to generate noise(while others of the same brand don't)! ;)
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I'm controlling multiple X10 items in both GFI outlets and on Arc fault breakers. I don't really have an easy way to test if they weaken or otherwise interfere with my X10 signal to items on them but everything is working so that's a good sign.
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A GFI device normally passes the power through a differential transformer to measure the imbalance in the current going out and coming back on that circuit. That transformer will have some inductance, and can reduce X10 signals. How much depends on the exact design of the GFI. That is probably why some people report problems using X10 devices with GFIs, and others have no problem at all.
Jeff
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A GFI device normally passes the power through a differential transformer to measure the imbalance in the current going out and coming back on that circuit. That transformer will have some inductance, and can reduce X10 signals. How much depends on the exact design of the GFI. That is probably why some people report problems using X10 devices with GFIs, and others have no problem at all.
Jeff
...and if you signal strength happens to be borderline already.
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Good Afternoon,
The GFCI breakers I have contain a current transformer (coil) around both the phase and neutral. This in effect forms the differential transformer. This configuration is much more cost effective and smaller then a separate differential transformer.
The operation is simple; since the power is AC a conductor will cause current to flow in the secondary of a transformer (coil) because of the field surrounding it. The strength of this field is in direct relationship to the current the conductors are carrying. The Phase and Return (neutral) are 180 degrees out of phase canceling common mode current fields.
The transfer into the secondary of the coil (current transformer) is zero as long as both conductors are carrying the same current. If there is any unbalance in either wire current will be introduced into the current transformer which with some electronics causes the device to open. You can add turns to the primary, this will multiply the field strength and increase the sensitivity.
Note these are not load sensitive; they are just sensitive to the current difference between the wires. For example if you touch one of the wires (sometimes even the white) current will flow from the wire to ground if you are grounded. That current is not going back through the GFCI which results in it tripping, that is what they were designed for.
If you short the white wire and earth ground with a tester it will probably trip even though these two wires are connected together in the main panel, this depends on the IR drop in your system. If you connect a voltage tester between the safety ground and the hot (smaller blade) it should trip. Doing the same thing between the neutral and phase will have no effect. If this works connect a large load and watch it work again, if not your voltage tester is pulling minimal current. I use a Square D tester with a solenoid indicator.
Be Safe
Gil Shultz
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A GFI device normally passes the power through a differential transformer to measure the imbalance in the current going out and coming back on that circuit. That transformer will have some inductance, and can reduce X10 signals. How much depends on the exact design of the GFI. That is probably why some people report problems using X10 devices with GFIs, and others have no problem at all.
Jeff
...and if you signal strength happens to be borderline already.
Seems like my wall switch worked for two years and now does not. We have some candle lights in our upstairs windows and now they do not shut off. One of the lights is connected to a GFCI receptacle in the bathroom. I'm going to suspect that the receptacle is going bad and not allowing the lights to be turned off. The switch can turn off the lights by not the PC or controller. I'm going to get another receptacle and see if this changes.
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I doubt that your GFI receptacle is "going bad". Most likely the signal level was marginal to begin with. You may have added other electrical loads in your house since the last time you used the candle lights, and that could have reduced the signal level to the point the module just doesn't work anymore.
You may have to invest the effort to identify potential signal suckers, and put them on filters. More information on troubleshooting X10 problems can be found here:
http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm
Jeff
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I doubt that your GFI receptacle is "going bad". Most likely the signal level was marginal to begin with. You may have added other electrical loads in your house since the last time you used the candle lights, and that could have reduced the signal level to the point the module just doesn't work anymore.
You may have to invest the effort to identify potential signal suckers, and put them on filters. More information on troubleshooting X10 problems can be found here:
http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm
Jeff
Thanks,
I didn't think the GFCI would go bad so I read further.
We did install some other devices in the house like a big screen Sanyo (several posts on noise from these) and others. After reading about phase couplers I did some testing. The controller and two switches were on one phase, the other switch (outlets) in question was on the opposite phase. I went out to the panel and moved the outlets in question to the other phase. Will all three switches and the controller on the same phase I don't have any issues. As you say, I've most likely had marginal performance from the beginning because the devices were on separate phases in the circuit panel.