X10 Community Forum
🖥️ActiveHome Pro => ActiveHome Pro General => Help & Troubleshooting => Topic started by: Billaban on December 26, 2006, 02:46:18 PM
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I have a CM15A setup. Well sort of. I'm having serious range problems and have read extensively herein about antenna modification but haven't decided how to proceed. ANYWAY, yesterday being Christmas I received a XC19A "kit" which includes a CM19A. It would appear that I don't have any use for the CM19A. Opinions to the contrary?
thanks.
[TTA Edit: Split off into separate thread, renamed and moved.]
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When you say "serious range problems", exactly what are you trying to do?
It's pretty well known that the antenna on the CM15A is poor for reception. Mine won't even receive the RF signals from a Stck-A-Switch or a KR19, but the RR501 in the Liviing Room (7 feet from the CM15) will.
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Billaban There are a couple of reasons to hang on to the CM19A
Find your self a program you like which uses the SDK, there are many!(some free)
Compare the program using both!(first one then the other)
When you do the antenna modification to the CM15A you'll have a temporary replacement.
Since the CM19A will respond to commands sent with the SDK it makes for a good backup to the CM15A should it fail! ::) ;) :D
You could run the CM19A connected and the CM15A not ;)
If you have a second PC you could use the CM19A on it. Many users here run more then one CM15A or a CM11A with the CM15A,so I see no reason why one couldn't run the CM19A with the CM15A. ;) :D ;D
Also the CM19A could be used to help debug! ;)
There are probably a few more uses for it but since I don't have one these are the first ideas that come to mind!
Experiment I'm sure you'll find a way to implement it! ;) :D
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When you say "serious range problems", exactly what are you trying to do?
It's pretty well known that the antenna on the CM15A is poor for reception. Mine won't even receive the RF signals from a Stck-A-Switch or a KR19, but the RR501 in the Liviing Room (7 feet from the CM15) will.
I must have introduced some interference but even before today I cannot get devices in the adjoining room to the CM15A to configure. My DX7000 clearly has far better RF range. I have read all about this CM15A problem in this forum but have yet to decide on a repeater or modification to the antenna, or both. As of today it is even worse. I did just plugin a VR36A (near the MC15A) for the new CX19A camera that I received yesterday. FWIW - image quality isn't impressive even with the camera transmitting within a foot of the receiver. But that is for another day.
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You still haven't said what the CM15 won't address.
X10 signals are sent through the house wiring, so what won't work? That may be caused by a noise problem.
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Ok, sorry for being ambiguous. Here is what I have:
On one end of my house is my office over the garage which was probably a screened porch at one point many moons ago. The point is that the house is brick and the wall between the aforementioned office and the rest of the house is twice as thick as the interior walls. Probably plaster (like the rest of the house interior) or perhaps dry wall over brick since it was an update to a house built in 1940 something. This is where the PC/AHP (and all plugins) /CM15A is located. The floor is hardwood on a concrete slab. More on this later.
On the other end of the house are the bedrooms (2), with a DX7000 console in the 2nd BDRM. House is about 60 feet across with plaster on metal lath for interior walls...I have done some wall patching over the years and obviously discovered this.
In various places in the garage, basement, house exterior, and first floor living space I have DS10A's (6), LM15A's (4), SH10A (1), MS10A (3), PSH01's (3), PR511's (1 with 2 more in the mail), MS16A's (3), WS467's (4), WS477's (4), and a XPFM unit for a yet to be installed humidity sensing (very cool) exhaust fan for use with a RSS18. Somewhere around here is a partridge in a pear tree but I haven't seen that lately.
I received a X19A/VA11A/VR36A/CM19A "kit" for Xmas, which sorta works but let's just ignore that for the moment.
OK, so there is the most (if not all) of the layout.
The CM15A problem(s) I believe have been strictly RF. I have had some problems with MS10A's of which one is about 20 feet from the CM15A. Most problems have been with DS10A's, e.g., garage windows directly below the CM15A (maybe 10 ft - remember the concrete slab?), and more DS10A's in same BDRM as the DX7000. I know from experimenting with a hand-held DS10A that the DX7000 range is better, i.e., same distance (different direction) the DX7000 works where the CM15A fails. The CM15A sits about 4 ft off the floor on top of the PC tower. The DX7000 sits on a table between 2 and 3 ft off the floor. I am considering the antenna mod's and was reviewing the forum for the SR731 this morning but that unit doesn't appear to have impressed too many in the forum. If it was all that it is cracked-up to be I wouldn't care about the price.
I have reset my DX7000 5+ times to rebuild the zone configuration and deal with my own fubars like walking in front of an active MS10A while attempting to install other sensors. Yep, that was dumb but I figured it out. I have also completely rejuvenated the configuration in AHP a few times and in all of the aforementioned iterations the CM15A RF reliability has been weak. Yes, I would prefer to centrally locate the CM15A and the DX7000 but that simply isn't practical in this house.
Bottom line is that this is a modest house (approx 1800 sq ft) and I didn't expect these types of RF problems based on what I have read in various places.
So.....any suggestions?
FWIW - I proof read this several times so if I screwed up anywhere I can't see it.
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The Big reason your having RF issues is the metal lath which was used in the building process!
Large metal objects located between a RF sender and receiver will diminish the range considerably! :(
Since in your case this can't be moved(not easily) strategic placement of any RF devices is a must
The concert slab also contains metal reinforcing rod hence that problem!
The antenna mod may be the only option in your case at least you could mount it centrally in the Attic! ;) :D ;D
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The antenna mod may be the only option in your case at least you could mount it centrally in the Attic! ;) :D ;D
Thanks for the input. I had read about the metal lath interference problem back before I bought into this "world" and though I was home free when I did my preliminary DX7000 and sensors installation without issue. Bad call apparently.
Good call on the rebar in the concrete slab. I hadn't thought of that.
Hmm. The antenna mod adventure worries me somewhat. Especially the part about getting (I presume coaxial) cable from the CM15A locale to the attic. Any strong opinions out there on using a SR731 Smart Repeater? Maybe place the repeater in the attic?
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If you go with the smart repeater the attic would be the best spot for it!
I also haven't heard any good reports on this but more seem to complain than praise! ::) :( ;)
Perhaps someone who has had success with the SR731 Smart Repeater will jump in and explain their setup! ;) :D ;D
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IMHO the repeater is worthless. I had great luck with the antenna mod.
Steve
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IMHO the repeater is worthless. I had great luck with the antenna mod.
Steve
Great. I have read about a few different types of antenna mod's. I'm a software guy and don't know much about RF, antennas, etc... So I can play dumb here without much trouble and ask which antenna mod is recommended.
Thanks,
Billaban
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Get yo' solderin iron and dremel tool warmed up!
http://www.accessha.com/howto_fconnector_page1.html
Mod for CM15A
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?parentPage=search&pg=3&summary=summary&cp=&productId=2103641&accessories=accessories&kw=antenna&techSpecs=techSpecs¤tTab=summary&custRatings=custRatings&features=features&origkw=antenna&support=support&tab=support
Good antenna for the attic
http://www.radioshack.com/search/index.jsp?kwCatId=&kw=pl-259&origkw=PL-259
Coax and "F" cnnector for CM15A
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The mods listed by dave w works. I haven't done an antenna.
Good luck
Steve
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Great. I collected most of the materials at Radio Shack yesterday.
I just started to mod the CM15A per <http://www.accessha.com/howto_fconnector_page1.html>. The only snag has been removing the power connectors from the back of the casing. My situation is that the PCB popped out without issue and while it would be convenient to get the casing disconnected it is accessible. I did try to follow the directions and press the power connectors out but I'm 240 lbs and leaned into it fairly hard and the fittings didn't budge. I'm sure I could mangle/crack the casing if I tried any harder to press these out. ... Just thought I would share.
I'll get on with this later. I have a tee time.
Billaban
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Get yo' solderin iron and dremel tool warmed up!
http://www.accessha.com/howto_fconnector_page1.html
Mod for CM15A
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?parentPage=search&pg=3&summary=summary&cp=&productId=2103641&accessories=accessories&kw=antenna&techSpecs=techSpecs¤tTab=summary&custRatings=custRatings&features=features&origkw=antenna&support=support&tab=support
Good antenna for the attic
http://www.radioshack.com/search/index.jsp?kwCatId=&kw=pl-259&origkw=PL-259
Coax and "F" cnnector for CM15A
Done. I hung the antenna from the apex of the rafters in the attic and used 50' of coax to get to the CM15A. Appears to work fine.
Had a scare on my first test ???. Apparently I have a DS10A that is RF range challenged. Used another unit in same location which worked
and subsequently installed all the other "problem" sensors in AHP. About $60 for all the hardware.
Now that I'm getting reliable communication I can experiment with more complex macros and see what kind of trouble I can create with the AHP SDK.
My front porch light is wired. I think I'll take a remote out to the street and see what kind of range I have. Hmm. I guess if it is too far I could have a new problem.....
WOW. I've got at least 80 yards of exterior range using a HR12A controlling my PR511 in front of the house. Could be farther but it is hard to see a light on a
bright sunny Maryland day. I guess I'll find out fairly soon if any of my neighbors have X10 systems.
Thanks for all the help. HNY.
Billaban :D
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Followup.
A quick look at the AHP Activity Monitor (AM) doesn't show the dozen plus iterations of the PR511 B16 On/Off iterations while testing up and down my street. But the remote control of the light worked flawlessly. Is this a bug? Is the Activity Monitor unreliable? I was anticipating relying on AHP AM when I start playing with the SDK..... comments please.....
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Does this activity normally show up in the AM?
I've noticed the AM occasionally misses some commands not on house codes it's set not to transceive.
When using the SDK there is a monitoring program Ahcview.exe located in the SDK Bin folder and displays info that the SDK can see\use.
I most cases it is more accurate then the AM! ::) ;) :D
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Does this activity normally show up in the AM?
Yes. I didn't save the AM log but it sure looked like the AM displayed all the traffic until I got maybe 20 yds from the house. The remote worked EVERY time for at least a dozen iterations as I wandered as far as I could down the street and still see the PR511 fixture.
Sitting here in front of the AM with the remote I can see out the window to the PR511. The AM log contains every single On/Off. Very strange. Am I missing something here? If the remote control "works" that means the CM15A has properly received the RF signal and generated the X10 command to the PR511. I'll have to try this experiment again.
I've noticed the AM occasionally misses some commands not on house codes it's set not to transceive.
When using the SDK there is a monitoring program Ahcview.exe located in the SDK Bin folder and displays info that the SDK can seeuse.
I most cases it is more accurate then the AM! ::) ;) :D
Good. I'll see if I can get that running. I may not have the necessary runtime setup at the moment. I had to do an Ghost image restore of my PC to a pristine condition to solve a DSL problem. Thanks for the tip.
**** Update ****
The ahcview app does pickup more than the AHP AM. It's also interesting to note that with my PR511 set to B16 it is sending B1,2,3,4 On commands when it's motion sensor is tripped. I chose B16 (initially) to avoid sending ON commands to other devices, i.e., 16+1, etc is not valid so I expected a No op. Not a problem, but I don't recall seeing that defined in the documentation for the PR511. I'll revisit the doc. FWIW - none of the aforementioned additional ON commands generated by the PR511 showed up in the AM. Wow, that could really screwup somebody in a diagnostic adventure.
Billaban
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i was wandering if anyone was using the on alert software and if when having range problems is it acceptable to extend the wires on the widow/door transmiter so as to keep the magnetic switch at a door and the sending unit closer to the CM15A so it will be able to get the signal better or will extending the wires to the magnet cause any known problems
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I was able to get more range (and reliability) using a metal rod positioned above the MS10A case (passive repeater), as well as extending the antenna of the CM15A by 9 1/2 inches ( all as previously presented here on the forum). Now I get hourly (approximately) sensor checks on all my OnAlert modules.
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would mounting the sensors on a metal track susch as a roll up door track have any affect
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would mounting the sensors on a metal track susch as a roll up door track have any affect
As long as there is no metal between the switch and the magnet, you should be fine.
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Mounting the sensor on metal could effect it. As Puck said the magnetic switch parts should be fine.
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Hey I just tried something at my work with the CM15A to extend the range. Instead of modifying it which i might still do later after the warrenty is gone. I took the suggestion of the 9 1/2" wire and I taped it to the existing antena, then I took another peice of the #12 solid wire also 9 1/2" and taped it to the tranmitter for the door window sensor. I but both so they were pointing toward the ceiling I then held the transmitter above my head and test the open and closed I am going through one interior wall and then through a double firewall and was able to get a good and consistant signal at about 200ft away. The firewall does have two openings in it and all of the buildings walls have metal studs in them. I am going to do this same thing to all my sensors and test it for awhile and see if it gives me continuous good results and will keep everyone informed.
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Looking good.......for your information, I started out this way to find the best orientation of the wire for my use. I would think that each structure might require a little different angle. Check the activity monitor for sensor reports. I get them (about) hourly, whether OnAlert armed or not.
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FWIW dept.
I have both Stick-A-Switches and motion detectors that quit "working" when I stick them on a refrigerator. It is not a factor of the refrigerator acting as a shield. Instead I think it is the metal refrigerator throwing the transmitter off frequency or killing it altogether. All I have to do is pull the transmitter 1/2 to 1 inch away from the refrigerator and they work. I need a spectrum analyzer to really see what is happening, but a lot of factors are at play here. I can see where an aluminum surface might have a different effect on the transmitter circuitry than a steel surface.
What I HAVE taken to the bank, is knowledge that X10 might not like getting stuck on metal.
There that was helpful wasn't it?
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David; very well could be the metal shifting the transmit frequency. I think most of the transmitter is on a PC board parallel to the back side.
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Yes I am fairly sure that is exactly what is happening. Where are those Motorola "Communications System Analyzers" (R2600) when you need them ;)
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Perhaps someone who has had success with the SR731 Smart Repeater will jump in and explain their setup! ;) :D ;D
My SR731 doesn't seem to work at all with my CM15A. As others have stated, the AHP Activity Monitor doesn't even show anything. This is even when I use the "test button" on the SR731, which generates a M1 "on" and M1 'off'. No M1 'on' nor M1 'off' shows up in the AHP Activity Monitor.
IMHO, the CM15A is not compatible with the SR731. Possibly because the SR731 "tags" its repeated RF signals, as repeats, and the CM15A "sees" these tags as making the RF signal invalid (and therefore ignores them). Though, that is just a guess.
Let me add that the latest CM15A/AHP "package" being sold by X10 on their website, includes the Smart RF Repeater. I wonder how they could do that. Has AHP been updated lately, such that it how works?
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I saw that there are many problems with receiving RF signals of any range over 5 feet with the CM15A.
I also noticed that there were many solutions of various degrees of difficulties, so I chose the simple one. I bent a wire coat hanger so I could tape it to the side of the CM15A antenna and now it works fine from 40 feet at least.
I tried from outside at 100 feet at least and it didn't work, but maybe the batteries are low, as that controlled has been in use for a couple of years.
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**** Update ****
I chose B16 (initially) to avoid sending ON commands to other devices, i.e., 16+1, etc is not valid so I expected a No op. Not a problem, but I don't recall seeing that defined in the documentation for the PR511. I'll revisit the doc.
I thought the PR511 wrapped at unit 16 back to unit 1?
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Yup, mine do.
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I'm new to this forum, so I hope I post this in a useful place..... I just got a CM15A and was also VERY disappointed in the wireless range of the device the I started looking at various mods on this forum and had an idea to take the antenna off my old TM751 module and adapt it to the CM15A. The antenna on the TM751 is a simple telescoping antenna an i reasoned that it's supposed to receive the same frequencies so it's extended length must be correct.
When I disassembled the TM, i got a suprise; the antenna has no physical connection to the electronics, it's coupled inductively with a solid piece of plastic between the wire from the module and the antenna. This gave me the idea of removing the TM751 antenna and simply attaching it to the outside of the CM15S antenna, I chose to wire tie it there but i think three are many ways to accomplish this, but i wanted something that wouldn't affect my warranty.
The results were ASTOUNDING.... using the mini keychain remote before the mod, i could only go through the outside wall and about 10 ft on the other side and no at all from inside the car. With my simple mod, I was able to increase the range to about 200 ft outside and about 60 ft from in the car. I suppose that any metal piece with the same length (12 inches) would work as well.
I simply can't understand why X10 has chosen to neuter this device the way they have. The TM751 is PROOF that they USED to know how to do this!
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...This gave me the idea of removing the TM751 antenna and simply attaching it to the outside of the CM15S antenna, I chose to wire tie it there...
You may of found the cheapest non destructive mod for the CM15A. I'm now on the lookout foot long piece of metal for mine.
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Thanks for that tip. Yes the antenna in a TM751 is inductively coupled as is the RR501s. Both have a powerline derived power supply that is tied to Line. Thus the isolation.
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I was having the no reception beyond 5' problem with my SS13As, so I took bnywen's idea and modified it slightly. I didn't have a TM751 around (in my last house, I just set those to transceive the house codes my SS13As were on - that fixes the problem too) so I just cut the straight section off a coat hanger and zip tied it to the antenna on the CM15A. Amazingly, it worked.
I even used a white coat hanger to increase the WAF. :D
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solareclipse: You're a genius... when I looked in my closet for a white coat hanger I found one that even had a little plastic protector over the tip. I cut the straight part at the bottom to 12 inches, and put the little plastic cap on the tip, attached it to the CM15A's antenna and it now looks like it came from the factory that way. WAF was zero however as A) the hanger that i found was one that she uses (and missed) >:( and B) my system has been infected by gremlins that I think turned out to be from a failing network switch power supply. This drove us all nuts for a week or so until I finally turned off every breaker in the house and bought things back one at a time. The 8 port hub was nice enough to die totally at that time, thereby pointing at itself as the cause of the problem.