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Wired it up turned on the breaker and it trips immediately until I un-connect the switch. The switch is the only thing between my 20 amp 120v GFI breaker and my pool filter. Any ideas why this might be happening? Could reverse wiring be the problem? Tech support mentioned line noise but with only one x10 switch on the circuit it seems unlikely. Is this a dud switch?
Any help would be appreciated.
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Not sure. Assuming you're replacing a regular switch that did work and this isn't a new installation, it might be a defective switch.
Otherwise, if this is a new installation, try a standard switch to see if that works.
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Wired it up turned on the breaker and it trips immediately until I un-connect the switch. The switch is the only thing between my 20 amp 120v GFI breaker and my pool filter. Any ideas why this might be happening? Could reverse wiring be the problem? Tech support mentioned line noise but with only one x10 switch on the circuit it seems unlikely. Is this a dud switch?
Any help would be appreciated.
1. dud switch - try XPS3 somewhere else and see if that breaker trips also.
2. pump shorted or "leaking" to ground - as Steve R suggested install a standard switch and see if breaker trips.
3. Try removing the XPS3 from the box, and disconnect any ground wire and try the breaker again. If it works you have a ground fault somewhere.
4. Reverse wired? The XPS3 requires a neutral, so if it got "reverse wired" it is probably ka-put.
5. How many wires do you have in the switch box you are installing the XPS3 in?
Lets us know if you find something.
5.
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There are 4 wires coming from the breaker but one (red) was un-used in the old configuration. White I have directly connected to the pump white wire via a wire nut. Black goes to the switch as does green. Past that there is a ground wire for the casing of the pump that is bolted to the box itself.
I will try another switch and a see if that works. Thanks for the suggestions so far.
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sharrisct25
The XPS3-IW is the Pro version of the WS13A. I don't have a XPS3=IW to look at but I believe that the terminal hookups on the back are the same. Either of these switches are designed to work in a single switch application or a 3 or 4 way application. The 2 top connections on the switch marked "CONTROL" are for using the switch in a 3 or 4 way application and is not used when using the switch as a single stand-alone on off switch.
You should have a hot lead, or power into the switch box wired to the terminal marked "LINE". Your white, neutral wire, going to the switch terminal marked "NEUTRAL" and the line going out to your pool pump (should be black) hooked to the "LOAD" terminal on the switch. The white wire coming from your pool pump can hook into the second terminal on the switch also marked as "NEUTRAL".
If you can tell me the number of wires and there colors that are going into the switch box I should be able to draw up a little print of whats going on. Also are you replacing an old switch with this X10 model and is this, did this, turning on and off an outlet out by the pool and the pump plugs into that? Also are there bare ground wires in the box and what are they connected to?
The GFI breaker shouldn't trip with just the addition of the switch unless there is some leakage to ground some where. (wouldn't take much) Does anyone know of a wiring print for the internal electronics for a XPS3-IW or a WS13A?
I posted this before reading your reply post so some of the question you have answered.
(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)----KDR
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There are 4 wires coming from the breaker but one (red) was un-used in the old configuration. White I have directly connected to the pump white wire via a wire nut. Black goes to the switch as does green. Past that there is a ground wire for the casing of the pump that is bolted to the box itself.
I will try another switch and a see if that works. Thanks for the suggestions so far.
You indicate the green is going to the switch. Where do you have the green connected to?? Green is and should only be used as a ground.
From what your saying was the pump hard wired with no switch or switch at the pump and now your adding/replacing a switch with this X10 modle?
(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)----KDR
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So I just finished trying some additional troubleshooting. I tried another new XPS3-IW and got the same result. So then I tried a normal switch making only one wiring change by taking both green wires and instead of having them connect to the switch (since the normal switch does not need ground to function) I connected them via a wire nut and everything works fine.
So I am pretty sure I did not get two bum switches, the normal switch seems to work so what was the problem? As for the questions on wiring here is the breakdown for when I had he XPS3-IW installed.
From GFI breaker.
Red - Not connected
Green - to Neutral on switch
Black - to Line on switch
White - to wire nut
From Pump
Green - to Neutral on switch
Black - to Load on switch
White - to wire nut
Any ideas would be appeciated. The setup works for now but I really want to get this thing controled by activehome for timing but have the ability to turn on the pump via a switch local to the pump.
Thanks
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sharrisct25 I have drawn up 2 prints. The first is what was original i believe and the second shows how to wire in the XPS3 switch so it will work.
(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/pump1.jpg)
(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/pump2.jpg)
(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)----KDR
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Excellent thank you!
I will try that tomorrow.
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- What is the level of your "Residential Electrical Wiring" experience?
- Are you familiar with the NEC?
- Why are the GREEN and WHITE wires *REVERSED* from their normal usage?
- Who originally wired the pump?
...
From GFI breaker:
Red - Not connected
Green - to Neutral on switch
Black - to Line on switch
White - to wire nut
From Pump:
Green - to Neutral on switch
Black - to Load on switch
White - to wire nut
(http://www.geocities.com/taketheactive/Images/X10_New.gif) TTA's Boilerplate Newbie Electrical Wiring Warning:
When folks (Newbies) ask these types of questions, I personally question whether or not they should even be touching their electrical wiring (no offense intended - SAFETY is the major concern).
PLEASE BE SAFE and STOP FUMBLING - until you get yourself a basic understanding of exactly what potential dangers you're dealing with.
[Getting ZAPPED, without getting KILLED, a few times certainly gives one a RESPECT for 120VAC.]
Spend a little time reading about National Electrical Code (US) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Electrical_Code_(US)) and get yourself some foundation / fundamentals under your belt...
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I am not familiar with NEC.
My experience with residential wiring is decent I guess but it has all been related to common stuff like swapping receptacles, changing switches and the installing lighting. I am not used to stuff like this where their are so many wires in play and the old fixture being so vastly different.
The original switch was old metal box with a Frankenstein switch that was ridiculously rusty and closed both the black and white wires when in the on position so it was not a very good comparison to follow. I just bought this house and the wiring is a mess all over so who knows who did it originally I have already spent thousands having a electrician fix bigger things like kitchen wiring the main breaker box etc. I will likely have to upgrade the service soon also. In fact the poor existing wiring is what got me into x10 all the three way switches were wired wrong so both switches had to be on at the same time to work so I am using allot of slim line switches.
As for why I used the green instead of the white it was just a mis-interpretation of what the electrician told me to do when he explained how I should swap that specific switch I guess I just did not follow him correctly.
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...As for why I used the green instead of the white it was just a mis-interpretation of what the electrician told me to do when he explained how I should swap that specific switch I guess I just did not follow him correctly.
Let's hope KDR's excellent drawings get you on the right track.
BTW: If anyone calling themselves an electrician ever tells you the green wire is for anything other than ground, get their license revoked.
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At this point I don't think you damaged the X10 switches. The GFI would trip the way you had it wired because the low current draw used by the electronics in the switch itself. Power coming in on the line connection and getting its return path through the green ground would make the GFI think there was a partial short and trip.
It is hard to fully understand sometimes what someone has in wiring when describing it in writting. Pictures help a bunch most of the time. Also it takes allot of back and forth questions and answers to build a good picture of what someone has. But its worth it to make sure its being done right. As TTA indicated above SAFETY is the first priority. Not only to you doing the wiring but long term to know its safe and not going to over heat or cause a short that could case a fire. (An electrical arc, even a small one can produce heat temperatures in the thousands of degrees range.)
This tip goes out to everyone... If your not sure about making electrical changes, post your question on this forum and someone will steer you in the right direction. There are several members here including myself that have a very good background and knowledge of electrical wiring.
(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)----KDR
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I am not familiar with NEC.
While it is a good idea to understand the NEC before tackling a major electrical project to avoid issues with the inspector, a good electrical wiring book available at your local building supply store should keep you out of trouble for most homeowner projects. Just be sure it is a recent edition because the NEC had some significant revisions in 2002. Be careful to follow the color codes.
As people have said previously:
NEVER work on a live circuit. Since some old wiring may have more than one circuit in a box, insure power is off with a voltage tester before touching any wires with your hands.
Green is NEVER used as a current carrying conductor. It is ALWAYS the ground - connected to bare wires in the box or the metal box itself.
Be safe!
Jeff
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Thank you all for the help, I will hit home depot and get a wiring book to make sure I am on track. This is a older house and the wiring is messed up so I expect issues. Hell I took down a wall and found wires joined with wire nuts in the wall, no tape and no box so nothing will suprise me from here on in.
That said I do have one other question about x10 given what I have seen here. Many of the old light switches I would like to swap out are in single gang boxes that have only three wires
white (to the light fixture according to my multimeter)
black (line)
copper / bare
The bare is ground and the XPS3-IW will not work without a neutral connection so am I out of luck for using this switch or is there another way around it or another x10 switch I could use?
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If all you have in the switch box is a black and a white and those 2 wires are hooked to the terminals on the switch then the power coming in to feed this light is up in the light itself.
There is no neutral in the switch box so the XPS3 won't work. If the light is incandescent there are some other X10 products that could work in this application. (I am at work right now but can post more details later)
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That said I do have one other question about x10 given what I have seen here. Many of the old light switches I would like to swap out are in single gang boxes that have only three wires
white (to the light fixture according to my multimeter)
black (line)
copper / bare
For control of incandescent bulbs only, the WS467 will work on your 2-wire "line - load" configuration. The WS467 will not work with CFLs or Fluorescent, etc. only incandescent lights.
For 3-way, again incandescent only, the WS4777 will work.
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...Since some old wiring may have more than one circuit in a box, insure power is off with a voltage tester before touching any wires with your hands....
I made that shocking discovery 1st hand.
Following the "saturation principle for lost items", I now own more than one voltage tester. i.e. If you lose enough of the same item your probability of finding one when you need it is increased. Also they're cheep. Get one that identifies 110 and 220 volts and you can use it with an extension cord as a "poor man's tester" to see if two outlets are on the same phase. Actually you can use any tester rated to 220V but it's more fun to see the 220 bulb light up.
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I made that shocking discovery 1st hand.
I was told an interesting story by an electrician. He had been working on ceiling fixtures, and the wires were hanging down. He tripped the breaker for the circuit, positioned his aluminum ladder right under where he wanted to work, and climbed up. He found he had tripped the wrong breaker when his head hit the wires.
It still makes me chuckle whenever I think about it.
Jeff
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One of my fellow workers had a big surprise. His porch outlets kept dropping voltage at very low current. He found that someone had added 300 OHM TV antenna wire to add outlets. ::) :o
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...It still makes me chuckle whenever I think about it....
When it happens to you, it's always funnier in retrospect.
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It still makes me chuckle whenever I think about it.
Then you should find this hilarious.
Many years ago, while still in highschool I worked part time with an electrician. We were in the process of completely gutting an old apartment building in preparation for its renovation. My instruction from the owner of the company was to cut out all of the old light fixtures hanging in the hall. Before removing the first one he assured me that the power was turned off. The last thing I remember was un-mounting the first fixture and raising my cutters to cut the first set of wires. The next thing I saw was the ceiling looking up at it from laying flat on my back on the floor. I remember looking at my diagonal cutters and seeing a very large section missing. The first words out of my bosses mouth were "Don't worry I'll buy you a new pair". >:(
Oh by the way the lights were 220 volt. If nothing else I gained an instant respect for electricity and I also learned to never trust anyone who tells me the power is off. :)
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High voltage makes the experience "invigorating". It's the current that kills.
Back when I was a youngster (just after dirt was invented) I learned a valuable lesson on low voltage systems. I had just finished welding some new patch panels on my old Ford. I reconnected the battery (disconnected during welding) and jumped into the car to fire it up. The car cranked slowly then caught and started but when I tried to give it gas I found the accelerator was stuck - HARD. I jumped back out, dove under the hood and yanked on the metal braided accelerator cable.
I can remember hearing and smelling my hand burning before actually feeling it. I had left the ground cable off the engine block. The 400+ amps of current had routed through the accelerator cable turning it white hot. I'm fortunate it didn't ignite anything in the fuel system and fireball my heap while I was in it.
It's been 36 years and I still tell the story and show "youngsters" my hand WHENEVER I here them disrespecting electricity. Even low voltage systems can kill you under the right circumstances.
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In high school electronics class we built a Tesla Coil Generator. We wanted more output so we made a bigger one. 8" diameter core 6 feet high. Used a 20,000 volt neon transformer for a primary. The calculated output was 750,000 volts. (never could measure it). We fired it up and it was spectacular. All the florescent lights in the room started glowing and we had an arc from the top of it to the metal frame of one of the lights.
As we stood around it in awe... I decided to walk over to the other side of the room. As I passed the greatest thing we ever built the arc to the light fixture move from it to me. They tell me that when I jumped there was an arc from me to the floor. All I remember is being on the floor. To this day I'm still not sure we calculated the correct output voltage but it seemed accurate to me..
(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)----KDR
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Based on this event and my experience, you cannot use an XPS3-IW on a line protected by a GFCI. I tried to install a GFCI on a circuit with two functioning X10 switches and it popped immediately and would not reset. After repeatedly resetting it, it stayed reset for a while but I later discovered the the two X10 switches were destroyed. One was totally dead and the other had its red light out. I believe this is due to the constant current draw of the switch electronics. I had the same problem trying to install a GFCI on a circuit with a neon glow switch. It popped immediately. Most houses are wired with the lighting circuit separate from the outlet circuits so this doesn't come up. However my house has many switch controlled outlets and some outlets before the switch too. I called X10 and they would not concur although this is obvious and should be in the literature.
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Rick,
It sounds like you have a wiring problem on this circuit. The GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter) detects the presence of current on the ground line (bare copper) or a short between the common (white wire) and ground. The XPS3 switches does not connect to the ground wire not connect to the ground wire - is should not be the source of the problem unless something is mis-wired or you have a ground wire shorting in you box.
XPS3 wiring:
http://www.x10pro.com/pro/pdf/xps3.pdf
I have many X10 devices on GFCI breakers in my basement and garage (I'll admit that none of them are XPS3's) and have no problems.
There is a thread on this subject here:
http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=11038.0
And a nice description of the GFCI operation here:
http://www.codecheck.com/gfci_principal.htm
Come to think of it, why are you installing a GFCI on a line with a relay switch? Do the switches control an outlet or a hardwired light. Switches controlling hardwired lights are not normally protected by GFCI's (unless I'm out of date on my wiring code - possible).
Are you using a panel mounted GFCI breaker, or a GFCI receptacle (outlet)?
Sorry for all the questions - I'm trying to get a handle on your configuration.