X10 Community Forum

🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Topic started by: Brian H on July 13, 2007, 07:43:20 AM

Title: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Brian H on July 13, 2007, 07:43:20 AM
Has anyone received the LM465 lamp Modules with the SoftStart feature as seen in: X10 Knowledgebase: New LM465 with SoftStart (http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/SoftStart) ?

Sounds like a new feature and I was wondering what an owner thought of the new feature.


[TTA Edit: Added description and formatting to LINK; corrected typo.]

Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Boiler on July 13, 2007, 08:04:29 AM
Brian,

Interesting find

Quote from: X10 Knowledgebase

This feature used to only be available on the now-discontinued LM14A Two-Way Lamp Module. However, we will be introducing it in new LM465 lamp modules- we needed to change out one of the chips inside, and the engineers decided to upgrade the unit.

Is X10 responding to customer requests, or is this a case of component obsolescence?  If it's the latter, I expect we'll be seeing the same feature in other X10 products.

I really like the soft start on my Leviton dimmers.  Bulb life is significantly increased by eliminating the surge current at turn on.  Great for outdoor lamps.


[TTA Edit: Remove double QUOTE; bump SIZE of quote for readability and impact.]
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Charles Sullivan on July 13, 2007, 09:29:23 AM
How nice of X-10 to make a radical change in a product's characteristics without changing the model number.  How many people will understand what's going on with their systems when they unknowingly have a mix of old versus new modules.

Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Walt2 on July 13, 2007, 10:25:23 AM
How nice of X-10 to make a radical change in a product's characteristics without changing the model number. 

They have been doing that for some time now.  For example, as I just found out, there are two different UR-74 remotes.
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Boiler on July 13, 2007, 10:57:43 AM
How nice of X-10 to make a radical change in a product's characteristics without changing the model number.  How many people will understand what's going on with their systems when they unknowingly have a mix of old versus new modules.

Wow, hadn't looked at it that way but you're absolutely correct.  This may be the source of numerous troubleshooting posts in the future.
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: TakeTheActive on July 13, 2007, 11:58:27 AM
Bravo X10! (http://www.x10community.com/forums/Themes/x10theme1/images/post/thumbup.gif)

Now that CFLs are mainstream (I'd venture to say CFLs are now in more homes than X10, where 10 years ago only the Geeks bought them) and incandescents are fading away (IIRC, isn't Canada planning to outlaw incandescents in a few years?), add a feature that we could have been using for years! ::)

All of my "nightly running" incandescents that were either on X10 modules or switched diodes for dimming purposes have been replaced with CFLs.


Is X10 responding to customer requests, or is this a case of component obsolescence?

How's the old saying go? I'll give you 3 guesses and the first 2 don't count. :D


...I really like the soft start on my Leviton dimmers.  Bulb life is significantly increased by eliminating the surge current at turn on.  Great for outdoor lamps.

Would you estimate the bulb life is increased enough to cover the added expense of keeping a 150 watt flood / spot (times 10 for me) at 1% for ~6 hours/day to allow a 'soft' ramp-up when detecting motion during the "busy" period (dusk until ~4 - 6 hours later) ?
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: JimC on July 13, 2007, 12:12:39 PM
Quote from:
Sounds like a new feature and I was wondering what an owner thought of the new feature


I haven't tried any of the new LM465's yet but I have used this feature in the now discontinued LM14A Two-Way Lamp Module. I liked it very much. Not only did it dim up and down it also remembered the previous dim setting and the lamp when turned on would go to that dim level.
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Boiler on July 13, 2007, 12:25:28 PM
Would you estimate the bulb life is increased enough to cover the added expense of keeping a 150 watt flood / spot (times 10 for me) at 1% for ~6 hours/day to allow a 'soft' ramp-up when detecting motion during the "busy" period (dusk until ~4 - 6 hours later) ?

Absolutely not - a 1% quiescent current would be a stiff price to pay for a soft ramp.  Where does the 1% # come from?

I use Leviton HC06's (with return) for my outside lamps.  If you're telling me the units are dissipating that much power in the "off" condition I'll head home in 30 minutes with a meter and a screwdriver.
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: TakeTheActive on July 13, 2007, 12:27:51 PM

How nice of X-10 to make a radical change in a product's characteristics without changing the model number.  How many people will understand what's going on with their systems when they unknowingly have a mix of old versus new modules.


...For example, as I just found out, there are two different UR-74 remotes.

Don't forget about the: KR19A Slimfire Remote Programming Discrepancies... (Read 6524 times)[Updated: 2006/11/22] (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=10654.msg59955#msg59955) ;)
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: TakeTheActive on July 13, 2007, 12:47:19 PM

Absolutely not - a 1% quiescent current would be a stiff price to pay for a soft ramp.  Where does the 1% # come from?

Back in the " old days ", CM11A/AH owners would program a "DIM to 1%" instead of an OFF to be followed by a "BRIGHTEN TO xx%" SoftStart instead of an ON.
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Charles Sullivan on July 13, 2007, 01:18:59 PM
[Absolutely not - a 1% quiescent current would be a stiff price to pay for a soft ramp.  Where does the 1% # come from?
..
I just plugged three 100 Watt incandescent lamps into an "old" LM465 and the latter into a "Kill-A-Watt" meter.  The accuracy of this meter is specified as 0.2% of full scale (1875 Watts) and is therefore questionable at these low levels.  But I read:
  Module fully On       -  294 Watts
  Module turned Off   -  0 Watts
  Module dimmed to minimum brightness - flipping between 5 and 6 Watts

That would be closer to 2%.

Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Boiler on July 13, 2007, 02:17:23 PM
Back in the " old days ", CM11A/AH owners would program a "DIM to 1%" instead of an OFF to be followed by a "BRIGHTEN TO xx%" SoftStart instead of an ON.

I just plugged three 100 Watt incandescent lamps into an "old" LM465 and the latter into a "Kill-A-Watt" meter.  The accuracy of this meter is specified as 0.2% of full scale (1875 Watts) and is therefore questionable at these low levels.  But I read:
  Module fully On       -  294 Watts
  Module turned Off   -  0 Watts
  Module dimmed to minimum brightness - flipping between 5 and 6 Watts

That would be closer to 2%.

Ah yes, the early days of X10.  Before cell phones, CFL's, and electronic ballasts - I remember them well.

As usual, you are both absolutely correct.  Leaving a module dimmed to 1% for 90% of the day, so that you can program a soft start for the 10% of the day that the device is in use, is horribly wasteful.

If the new LM465 is setup like my Leviton dimmers, you don't need to leave the device at the 1% level.  The on ramp is controlled by the switch.  From an off state (0 watts), you can issue an on command and the device will ramp to full on (or preset dim level).  No current inrush to kill your filaments.  No 1% off condition consuming power.  No repeated bright and dim commands clogging up your power line.

Am I missing something here?

Charles - thank you for running the power vs level testing.
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Charles Sullivan on July 13, 2007, 03:06:12 PM
Back in the " old days ", CM11A/AH owners would program a "DIM to 1%" instead of an OFF to be followed by a "BRIGHTEN TO xx%" SoftStart instead of an ON.

I just plugged three 100 Watt incandescent lamps into an "old" LM465 and the latter into a "Kill-A-Watt" meter.  The accuracy of this meter is specified as 0.2% of full scale (1875 Watts) and is therefore questionable at these low levels.  But I read:
  Module fully On       -  294 Watts
  Module turned Off   -  0 Watts
  Module dimmed to minimum brightness - flipping between 5 and 6 Watts

That would be closer to 2%.

Ah yes, the early days of X10.  Before cell phones, CFL's, and electronic ballasts - I remember them well.

As usual, you are both absolutely correct.  Leaving a module dimmed to 1% for 90% of the day, so that you can program a soft start for the 10% of the day that the device is in use, is horribly wasteful.

If the new LM465 is setup like my Leviton dimmers, you don't need to leave the device at the 1% level.  The on ramp is controlled by the switch.  From an off state (0 watts), you can issue an on command and the device will ramp to full on (or preset dim level).  No current inrush to kill your filaments.  No 1% off condition consuming power.  No repeated bright and dim commands clogging up your power line.

Am I missing something here?

You're missing that X-10 is not Leviton and that your Leviton dimmer probably costs 3-5X as much as an LM465.   If (as appear highly likely from the description) all X-10 has done is make an Off signal dim the module to minimum brightness, then we're stuck with the wasted energy.   (That 5 Watts I measured, if at all accurate, adds up to over 40 KWH per year.)
 
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Boiler on July 13, 2007, 03:47:03 PM
OK, now I'm re-calibrated.  I was in no way trying to be contentious, just trying to understand the concern.  I guess I never considered a device that dissipates 2 watts in the OFF state an option.  I can't imagine someone considering this for a new design.

If this is the case, they may wind up catching flack from the FERC.  They definitely wont be getting any "energy star" certifications.

In terms of cost - the HC06 dimmer switch runs $40.  The closest X10 equivalent would be the WA12A at $20.  I attribute the cost difference to the Leviton AGC and true rocker action (more hardware) and the Leviton name.  The soft start, 1 button code capture, and preset dim would be PLC programming "features" that cost a bit to develop (must be amortized) but don't add to the hardware cost.
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Walt2 on July 13, 2007, 06:07:21 PM
I haven't tried any of the new LM465's yet but I have used this feature in the now discontinued LM14A Two-Way Lamp Module. I liked it very much. Not only did it dim up and down it also remembered the previous dim setting and the lamp when turned on would go to that dim level.

Does these "new" LM465 also support pre-set dim levels like the LM14A?  I mean, you can set an absolute dim level, and the module to ramp up to that level, and stop (no need to use a blinding 100% as a reference level).
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Charles Sullivan on July 22, 2007, 01:28:36 AM
I've acquired a few of the redesigned LM465 Lamp Modules and have attempted to characterize them.  The changes are quite radical. My results are available at:   http://www.heyu.org/docs/New_LM465.txt

Testing was performed with a CM11A operated with Heyu software under Linux.  I haven't determined how accurately the new LM465 can be controlled with AHP software - it would seem that a separate model for the new LM465 ought to be required.

To briefly answer a few questions and concerns expressed in this thread:

Walt2:
Yes, the new LM465 does support the Extended Code Preset command, similar to the LM14A.

JimC:
The new LM465 does have a "resume" feature but it operates differently from the LM14A.  See my report for details.

Boiler:
The minimum brightness level (achieved by sending maximum dim commands) of the new LM465 is similar to the LM14A - about 15% of line voltage .   However with the support for the Extended Code Preset command, it's no longer necessary to drive the module to minimum brightness in order to achieve gradual brightening from darkness.  In any event,  when it's turned Off the new LM465 module is Off like the old LM465 and dissipates only minimal power.

Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Brian H on July 22, 2007, 07:07:03 AM
Thank you for the information. Will be a help to many.
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Walt2 on July 22, 2007, 07:45:31 AM
Thank you for the information. Will be a help to many.

Yes, much thanks Charles!
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Boiler on July 22, 2007, 01:29:02 PM
Testing was performed with a CM11A operated with Heyu software under Linux.  I haven't determined how accurately the new LM465 can be controlled with AHP software - it would seem that a separate model for the new LM465 ought to be required.

Thank you for the test information and report Charles.  After reading through things, I'd have to agree that AHP really needs an update to be able to utilize some of the new features of this module.  I'm not sure how X10 will accomplish that since they haven't changed the model number (LM465-2??). 

I had thought the Leviton 6381 module might work (it still may), but the fact that the LM465 goes to full brightness in response to an ON command makes it a bit different.  I'm still trying to figure out whether I like this.

Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: dave w on July 23, 2007, 01:51:38 PM

If (as appear highly likely from the description) all X-10 has done is make an Off signal dim the module to minimum brightness, then we're stuck with the wasted energy.   

FWIW
I see don't where you get that idea, but even if I missed something, it is very unlikely that X10 would resort that method of soft off. Diming to 1% would mean the module would revert to it's old behavior of 100% ON any time the power was interupted, bulb changed, module unplugged, etc.. The old LM14 did not exhibit this.
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Walt2 on July 23, 2007, 03:01:44 PM
"The new design has a "resume" feature similar to the LM14A, i.e., the
ability of returning from Off to the previously set brightness level.
However this feature is not called into play when the module receives
an On signal but when it receives a Dim signal.
"

Actually, IMHO, this is an improvement. 

The return to previous dim level, to me, was a bad idea.  I have never once wanted a lamp to return to the dim level I used (and have since forgotten), days earlier.  I even have several macros which detect a manual 'on' command to one of my LM14A's, and automatically follow ups with a "dim 100%" extended command.

BTW, how do we buy these "new" LM465 modules?
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Charles Sullivan on July 23, 2007, 06:29:44 PM

If (as appear highly likely from the description) all X-10 has done is make an Off signal dim the module to minimum brightness, then we're stuck with the wasted energy.   

FWIW
I see don't where you get that idea, but even if I missed something, it is very unlikely that X10 would resort that method of soft off. Diming to 1% would mean the module would revert to it's old behavior of 100% ON any time the power was interupted, bulb changed, module unplugged, etc.. The old LM14 did not exhibit this.

That was a guess, proven wrong by my later testing of actual devices.

Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Charles Sullivan on July 23, 2007, 06:47:00 PM
BTW, how do we buy these "new" LM465 modules?

I suspect that any retailer of _new_ X10 components will have them by now.  I got mine from "The Home Automation Store" eBay store <http://stores.ebay.com/The-Home-Automation-Store> where I get most of my new X10 stuff.  The proprietor told me that all his LM465 stock now has the Soft-Start feature.

Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: dave w on July 24, 2007, 12:17:43 PM
I wonder if the SoftStart feature will be integrated into the wall switch line? Would be nice.

Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Walt2 on July 24, 2007, 02:22:58 PM
I wonder if the SoftStart feature will be integrated into the wall switch line? Would be nice.

I was wondering that too.  I believe that both the lamp module and the wall switch module use the same main IC, no?  So, if X10 had to redesign it, it should effect both.
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Charles Sullivan on July 24, 2007, 04:42:21 PM
I wonder if the SoftStart feature will be integrated into the wall switch line? Would be nice.

I was wondering that too.  I believe that both the lamp module and the wall switch module use the same main IC, no?  So, if X10 had to redesign it, it should effect both.

I've sent an inquiry to my usual supplier, so maybe we'll have an answer soon.

The firmware in the WS467 is somewhat different than the LM465 (speaking of the older designs for both).  E.g., the WS467 responds to the All_Lights_Off command whereas the LM465 and it's predecessors never did.  (It made little difference since none of X-10's remotes or interface software supported that command.)

Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: MichaelC on July 24, 2007, 05:55:47 PM
Wow, what a big change without customer notice. I'm not surprised that the one of the components became obsolete, but I am a little surprised that there was *no* communication about this. As everyone else has noted, a model number change would have been appropriate. Another thing to keep in mind is that it's possible (not very likely based on the current structure) that the change was made in the factory and that X10.com was told *afterward*. That has happened in the past multiple times.

There are probably quite a few components that will be changing in the future, since X10 has relied on old parts for quite some time. I think the chip for the CM15A is no longer being produced, though I don't know what kind of quantity X10 had in inventory when it went out of production. To me those changes are good opportunities to make needed changes and refresh stale products, but I'm not sure that X10 looks at it that way.
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Walt2 on July 24, 2007, 07:26:38 PM
Most semiconductor manufacturers will tell their customers that the fab (clean room) in which their "chips" are being made, is being closed down (going obsolete and being retired).  This gives them the opportunity to do one, final, "life time" buy.

I am kind-of surprised that anyone is still making any of the now quite old technology still in use in some of X10's original products.  I would think that those fabs would have been shutdown years ago.

Gosh, I can't get some IC anymore for designs I did just 3 years ago.   :(
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Brian H on July 25, 2007, 06:48:24 AM
Yes discontinued chips are usually retired with advanced warnings. I have a few old designs where I work and they drag their feet so to speak. Last batch of PALs I needed came from overseas from a parts brokeYes discontinued chips are usually retired with advanced warnings. I have a few old designs where I work and they drag their feet so to speak. Last batch of PALs where from a Parts Broker. Trader that buys old chips marked down and waits untill rare. Then charges a lofty fee for them. ;D
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: dave w on July 26, 2007, 12:27:30 PM
The chip update for the Lamp Module is not likely to be a "FAB" created change, since most of the X10 automation products use custom chips. The CM15A microprocessor is one of the few "off the shelf" chips used in X10 automation products (not to mention the RF modules). I would guess the video product lines have a lot more "off the shelf" chips in the form of op amps.

FWIW the wall switch will be getting SoftStart feature set also.
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: TakeTheActive on August 17, 2007, 12:20:07 PM

...My results are available at:   http://www.heyu.org/docs/New_LM465.txt


For your approval: New_LM465.Html (http://www.geocities.com/taketheactive/Files/Shared/New_LM465.Html)
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: nklght on September 03, 2007, 03:29:33 AM
Basically,
this new version will keep the light on and waste energy, even though I think it has been shut off.
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Boiler on September 03, 2007, 03:58:58 AM
Basically,
this new version will keep the light on and waste energy, even though I think it has been shut off.
nklght,
I believe you may have misread Charles' post:

At minimun dim level the modules still consume ~ 15% power (consistent with other X10 units).

In the off condition the units consume minimal power (X10 signal monitoring - numbers that I've seen posted are around 1 watt).

These really are nice changes to the modules.  If X10 had re-identified them (LM465-2) they could be promoting them as "new", "improved", "leviton equivalent" modules.  As it is, without changes to AHP and with no way of identifying the units, they're a marketing nightmare.

The old LM465 had a resonable chance of working with a CFL (depending on the brand).  Use of a "soft start" lamp module with a CFL can result in serious problems.

Boiler

Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Brian H on September 08, 2007, 04:21:42 PM
As a reference. I just got an LM456 Date Code:07G27 and it does not soft start. Acts like the older ones we have known for years.
Maybe leftover stuff from Radio Shack discontinuing the line; though it is in an X10 case. Was part of the deal that included the TM12A Mini-Timer that sure look like the one RS use to carry. LCD display and all.
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Charles Sullivan on September 08, 2007, 05:18:10 PM
As a reference. I just got an LM456 Date Code:07G27 and it does not soft start. Acts like the older ones we have known for years.
Maybe leftover stuff from Radio Shack discontinuing the line; though it is in an X10 case. Was part of the deal that included the TM12A Mini-Timer that sure look like the one RS use to carry. LCD display and all.


Hmm... Yours would appear to be a later date code than my 07D17 "Soft Start" units.   The question now is whether X-10 is mixing old and new product or have they re-revised the firmware to return to the original LM465 characteristics?

Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Boiler on September 08, 2007, 07:23:52 PM
As a reference. I just got an LM456 Date Code:07G27 and it does not soft start. Acts like the older ones we have known for years.
Maybe leftover stuff from Radio Shack discontinuing the line; though it is in an X10 case. Was part of the deal that included the TM12A Mini-Timer that sure look like the one RS use to carry. LCD display and all.

Brian H,
In a word - WOW. 

If X10 were to "REV" the new modules, the last "feature" that I would have guessed would be eliminated would be the "Soft Start".

Although this could have presented a safety hazard if the unit were used with CFL's or low voltage lighting, I would have thought that X10 would have stood behind it's disclaimers.

I'm more than a bit concerned that X10 is now mixing old and new stock with the same Date Codes.  This would leave us with no way of tracking changes.

Could I impose on you to test some of the new functions reported by Charles to determine whether this is an old/new unit or a revision?

{Edit by Boiler (SSE) - Stupid Spelling Errors}
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Brian H on September 09, 2007, 09:15:10 AM
Sure can. I just reprinted his data as it was revised and will compare it.
Will also open it and look at the IC and Part Numbers.
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Brian H on September 09, 2007, 10:45:47 AM
Have two DC 07G27. Both act the same.
On or Off: No ramp fast on or off.
Dim; if off; goes to 100% fast; then down from there.
Dimmed to 50%; then off. Then back on; full on
All Lights ON: responds
All Lights Off: Does not respond
All Units Off: Responds.
I don't have a way to do X10 Extended; so that I could not test.

                           Date Code:  07G27                                                                         Date Code: 02F23
   IC                     H78561                                                                                         F78651
                           45713571    0614 [maybe date code]                                               70196019     0131
   PCB:                  H10004A                                                                                       H10004
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Boiler on September 09, 2007, 11:44:54 AM
Brian H,
First and foremost - Thank you for the information.

Second - Very confusing.

Have two DC 07G27. Both act the same.
On or Off: No ramp fast on or off.
Dim; if off; goes to 100% fast; then down from there.
Dimmed to 50%; then off. Then back on; full on
All Lights ON: responds
All Lights Off: Does not respond
All Units Off: Responds.
I don't have a way to do X10 Extended; so that I could not test.

                           Date Code:  07G27                                                                         Date Code: 02F23
   IC                     H78561                                                                                         F78651
                           45713571    0614 [maybe date code]                                               70196019     0131
   PCB:                  H10004A                                                                                       H10004


Your unit sure behaves like an "old" LM465.  I believe the H78561 refers to the firmware with the "H" being the revision.  Pretty difficult for two different PIC's to share the same firmware.

I looks like X10 has found a supply of "original" LM465's and is shipping those in lieu of the new hardware.  Maybe this was all just a "mistake" at the factory?

Boiler
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Charles Sullivan on September 09, 2007, 11:49:10 AM
Have two DC 07G27. Both act the same.
On or Off: No ramp fast on or off.
Dim; if off; goes to 100% fast; then down from there.
Dimmed to 50%; then off. Then back on; full on
All Lights ON: responds
All Lights Off: Does not respond
All Units Off: Responds.
I don't have a way to do X10 Extended; so that I could not test.

                           Date Code:  07G27                                                                         Date Code: 02F23
   IC                     H78561                                                                                         F78651
                           45713571    0614 [maybe date code]                                               70196019     0131
   PCB:                  H10004A                                                                                       H10004


Those are the characteristics of the original LM465.  If you've got AHP running, you can drag in the icon for the LM14A; then running the brightness slider up and down will send extended code preset commands, but I doubt you'll see any response from the module.

Comparing the redesign LM465 (date code 07D17) with an original LM465 (date code 04D15), the major difference I see is that the controller chip on the redesign is a much smaller surface mount chip on the bottom side of the board, whereas the original has a DIP chip on the top side with the rest of the components.  The original PCB is marked H10004A A (the second A is smaller).  The DIP is marked H78561 / 21061106  0344.

Based on what you've seen and the location of the controller chip, it appears X-10 is mixing old and new product.

Good show X-10!!!  Now you've really screwed up the works!

Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Brian H on September 09, 2007, 11:57:16 AM
Yes.  The controller chip is a through hole dip type and not surface mounted.
Now that you mention it there was a real small A after the larger one.
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Dan Lawrence on September 09, 2007, 01:23:20 PM
OK, how do we tell which LM465 we have without opening the case?

I have 5 unused LM465's, all have a small round sticker on the back on the lower right corner.  2 have code 07A01, 2 have code 04L51 and 1 has code 05E19.

Are any the  Latest Version of the LM465?
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Charles Sullivan on September 09, 2007, 01:25:03 PM
Your unit sure behaves like an "old" LM465.  I believe the H78561 refers to the firmware with the "H" being the revision.  Pretty difficult for two different PIC's to share the same firmware.

I'm pretty sure H78561 is the part number, at least a Google search shows a number of hits for sources of obsolete parts with that number.

Quote
I looks like X10 has found a supply of "original" LM465's and is shipping those in lieu of the new hardware.  Maybe this was all just a "mistake" at the factory?

There may be more than one factory, each with its own inventory.   In any event, X-10 never throws anything away - you'll  find instruction sheets for long obsolete versions of a product packed with new versions.  In fact the lack of a distinguishing part number for the redesigned LM467 may be due only to an X-10 policy of using up the stock of old labels before printing new ones.  :)

Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Charles Sullivan on September 09, 2007, 01:38:30 PM
OK, how do we tell which LM465 we have without opening the case?

I have 5 unused LM465's, all have a small round sticker on the back on the lower right corner.  2 have code 07A01, 2 have code 04L51 and 1 has code 05E19.

Are any the  Latest Version of the LM465?


Open a new room in AHP and drag in a LM14A icon set to the same address as your module.   Drag the brightness slider on the icon up a ways, then down a ways.  If the lamp responds, it's a redesigned unit, otherwise it's an old one.  (The Activity Monitor should show the Extended Codes being sent when you twiddle the slider.)

Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Brian H on September 09, 2007, 07:55:48 PM
Charles's method sounds like great way to check for new features. If you don't have AHP you maybe able to try turning it on and off. If it ramps up and down at about 2 seconds it has soft start. If it goes quickly on and off it does not..
Guess we now have to think of a few questions to ask when a LM465 problem shows up. To determine if it has soft start and the new features as date code isn't going to be 100%; as we now know.
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: KDR on September 09, 2007, 10:44:14 PM
FWIW - I talked to a X10 rep today and they told me that X10 has not made any changes to the LM465 module.

With that said I ordered a new one today to see what I get

(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)----KDR
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: steven r on September 10, 2007, 02:53:55 AM
FWIW - I talked to a X10 rep today and they told me that X10 has not made any changes to the LM465 module....
It seems like at least one rep is in the dark.
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Brian H on September 10, 2007, 06:25:58 PM
Even X10 admitted of the change in the Knowledgebase. ???
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Dan Lawrence on September 14, 2007, 08:20:34 PM
OK, how do we tell which LM465 we have without opening the case?

I have 5 unused LM465's, all have a small round sticker on the back on the lower right corner.  2 have code 07A01, 2 have code 04L51 and 1 has code 05E19.

Are any the  Latest Version of the LM465?


Open a new room in AHP and drag in a LM14A icon set to the same address as your module.   Drag the brightness slider on the icon up a ways, then down a ways.  If the lamp responds, it's a redesigned unit, otherwise it's an old one.  (The Activity Monitor should show the Extended Codes being sent when you twiddle the slider.)

I tested all the LM465's and ALL are "old" units. None would reply to the LM14A module in the test. but would dim if a LM465 module was used. I used address A9 (unused in my X10 system).  Two if the LM465's were bought from Automated Outlet in the last 3 weeks.

[edited by CS to delineate quoted and new material]
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: KDR on September 14, 2007, 10:14:03 PM
I just purchased a new LM465 and it has a date code of 07C12. It responds like the old versions of the LM465. No special features.

(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)----KDR
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Charles Sullivan on September 14, 2007, 11:20:08 PM
Here's a summary of what we've seen so far regarding the new "soft start" LM465 versus old LM465:

Date code   Type   Reporter
-------------    ------    ------------
07A01          Old      Dan Lawrence
07A05          New    Puck
07C12          Old      KDR
07D17          New    Charles Sullivan
07G27          Old      Brian H
07I37            Old      wazkaren
07J44           Old      wazkaren
[Edited to add Puck's response to the original post.]
[Edited to add wazkaren' information]
[Edited again to add wazkaren's further information]
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Puck on September 14, 2007, 11:37:06 PM
Here's a summary of what we've seen so far regarding the new "soft start" LM465 versus old LM465:

Date code   Type   Reporter
-------------    ------    ------------
07A01          Old      Dan Lawrence
07C12          Old      KDR
07D17          New    Charles Sullivan
07G27          Old      Brian H


You can add this:

Date code     Type     Reporter
-------------   ------    ------------
07A05           New     Puck
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Brian H on September 15, 2007, 06:16:27 AM
Thanks for the chart Charles and added date Puck. Seems we will need it.  :o
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: steven r on September 15, 2007, 10:39:22 AM
Here's a summary of what we've seen so far regarding the new "soft start" LM465 versus old LM465:

Date code   Type   Reporter
-------------    ------    ------------
07A01          Old      Dan Lawrence
07C12          Old      KDR
07D17          New    Charles Sullivan
07G27          Old      Brian H


Argh... I had hoped we would find a cut off date where the old ones would stop and the new ones began but with 07D17
being new and 07G27 being old it doesn't look that way. Let's hope we don't we don't find any mixed batches.
i.e. The same Date Code showing up on both new and old units.
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Dan Lawrence on September 15, 2007, 07:38:26 PM
Why do I have this nagging feeling we will have mixed batches for the foreseeable future, knowing how X10 ships to the various vending companies.  :(
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Brian H on September 16, 2007, 07:07:32 AM
Dan; I share that feeling with you.  ::)
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: wazkaren on November 14, 2007, 04:54:29 PM
I see this thread is a few months old so maybe this is old information, but I just asked X10 support about this.  I asked if I order a LM465 today will it have "Softstart".  The answer was Yes.

So I ordered one and I'll find out in a few days if it's true.

Greg

Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Brian H on November 14, 2007, 06:48:06 PM
Thanks for keeping us up to date on the mixed new and old shipments in the past. Will be interesting to see what you will be getting.
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: wazkaren on November 17, 2007, 02:07:24 PM
I see this thread is a few months old so maybe this is old information, but I just asked X10 support about this.  I asked if I order a LM465 today will it have "Softstart".  The answer was Yes.

So I ordered one and I'll find out in a few days if it's true.

Greg



It looks like tech support is still clueless.  I got my LM465 today and it does not appear to have SoftStart (On command does not ramp up, does not respond to the extended dim commands).  The date code is 07137.  Looks like I wasted my money since SoftStart was the only reason I bought it.

EDIT: I thought I was in luck when I got the order confirmation.  The SKU was LM465-S (I thought maybe the -S meant SoftStart) while the SKU on my previous order last year was LM465-HA.  But the box looks the same as always, no -S.
Greg
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Charles Sullivan on November 17, 2007, 05:29:28 PM
I've edited my summary message from Sept 14, 2007 to include wazkaren's information.

I'm starting to wonder if the "soft start" LM465 was just a flash in the pan and X-10 has reverted to the old firmware design.   One clue would be if a LM465 with the original characteristics has the new hardware design.

The original hardware used a microcontroller chip in a dual inline package mounted on the component side of the circuit board.  The redesign has the microcontroller in a surface mount package on the back side of the circuit board.

Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Boiler on November 18, 2007, 12:22:58 AM
I see this thread is a few months old so maybe this is old information, but I just asked X10 support about this.  I asked if I order a LM465 today will it have "Softstart".  The answer was Yes...


It looks like tech support is still clueless.  I got my LM465 today and it does not appear to have SoftStart (On command does not ramp up, does not respond to the extended dim commands).  The date code is 07137.  Looks like I wasted my money since SoftStart was the only reason I bought it.

EDIT: I thought I was in luck when I got the order confirmation.  The SKU was LM465-S (I thought maybe the -S meant SoftStart) while the SKU on my previous order last year was LM465-HA.  But the box looks the same as always, no -S.

wazkaren,

Thanks for the data point on the LM465 (and the date code).  Sounds like X10 is still stirring the pot. 

As a first step, call and get a RMA.  You did not receive the "advertised" product. 

If you choose not to go for a replacement (roll the dice again), you might give X10Pro a try.  In general they're a bit more adept and responsive.

Boiler
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: wazkaren on November 20, 2007, 10:01:35 PM
Well I have to say I've had very good luck with X10 technical support.  I sent an e-mail and explained that my LM465 did not have softstart.  They were surprised that it did not and sent me an RMA to replace it.  I'll replay back when I get the replacement.

Greg
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Aquadeveloper on November 26, 2007, 01:31:04 PM
Charles,

As to the:

"How nice of X-10 to make a radical change in a product's characteristics without changing the model number.  .........."

That would take additional departments to change the part number in their files and database.
This way it just makes US have to keep track.

 :(
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: wazkaren on December 17, 2007, 05:40:14 PM
Well three weeks after X10 received my RMA I finally got my replacement LM465.  Not that it matters because this one does NOT have soft start either.  The date code of this one is 07344.

Just to make sure I'm doing this right here's what I did to test: I added this module as an LM14a in AHP.  It will turn on and off but does not dim.  I double checked the log and it is sending an extended command for the dimming.  And the on command does not ramp up.  If I add it as an LM465 it will dim but turns on to 100% first and then dims down.  Do I have this right?

X10 has outlasted me and now I just give up.

Greg
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Brian H on December 17, 2007, 07:13:59 PM
If it does not ramp up and down with on and off commands it is an older version. Date Codes don't seem to mean much. As there where earlier ones in 07 that have it and some later 07s didn't. My 07G27s do not.
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Charles Sullivan on December 17, 2007, 08:43:05 PM
If it does not ramp up and down with on and off commands it is an older version. Date Codes don't seem to mean much. As there where earlier ones in 07 that have it and some later 07s didn't. My 07G27s do not.

wazkaren:
Are you sure you read the date code sticker correctly?  For many years X-10 has used a date code with a one or two digit year followed by a letter code followed by a two digit number, e.g., Brian's 07G27.

It's not clear whether X-10 located a a supply of the older microcontroller chips and is continuing to manufacture the older design or has backed off and reprogrammed their new microcontroller to have the original characteristics.

For the LM465 units I have, the older design circuit board has a dual inline (DIP) IC on the same side of the board as the other components.  The new "soft start" design has a surface mount IC on the back side of the board.  If recently purchased LM465 have the original characteristics but the surface mount IC on the back of the board, that might resolve the question.

It'd be unfortunate if X-10 has backed off and reverted to the original characteristics with the new microcontroller for the LM465.  The  "soft start" design LM465 adds some nice features and it is for the most part compatible with the older design.

(The major problem was/is with the WS467 Wall Switch module redesign, where one particular characteristic makes it incompatible with the older design insofar as control by AHP  and other software is concerned.)

Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: wazkaren on December 17, 2007, 08:57:02 PM
If it does not ramp up and down with on and off commands it is an older version. Date Codes don't seem to mean much. As there where earlier ones in 07 that have it and some later 07s didn't. My 07G27s do not.

wazkaren:
Are you sure you read the date code sticker correctly?  For many years X-10 has used a date code with a one or two digit year followed by a letter code followed by a two digit number, e.g., Brian's 07G27.

Charles, right you are.  My eyes aren't what they used to be.  When I look closer it's 07J44.  But it still doesn't appear to have soft start. 

Greg
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Charles Sullivan on December 17, 2007, 10:09:19 PM
If it does not ramp up and down with on and off commands it is an older version. Date Codes don't seem to mean much. As there where earlier ones in 07 that have it and some later 07s didn't. My 07G27s do not.

wazkaren:
Are you sure you read the date code sticker correctly?  For many years X-10 has used a date code with a one or two digit year followed by a letter code followed by a two digit number, e.g., Brian's 07G27.

Charles, right you are.  My eyes aren't what they used to be.  When I look closer it's 07J44.  But it still doesn't appear to have soft start. 

Greg

Thanks Greg.  I've edited my previous message:
 http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=13006.msg74885#msg74885
to add this new data point to the list.

If anyone else has old versus new LM465 date codes to share, we would like to hear about them.

It'd be nice if we got some input from X-10 about what's going on, but I doubt that will ever happen.

Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Brian H on December 18, 2007, 06:50:41 AM
Almost sounds like they used the newer surface mounted PCB and redid the firmware in it to the older standard.
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Charles Sullivan on December 18, 2007, 10:05:41 AM
Almost sounds like they used the newer surface mounted PCB and redid the firmware in it to the older standard.

Brian:
I don't recall whether you've mentioned opening up your 07G27 LM465 to check the PCB.  Have you done this?

Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Brian H on December 18, 2007, 02:08:14 PM
Yes old DIP style chip PCB.
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Charles Sullivan on December 18, 2007, 03:58:45 PM
Yes old DIP style chip PCB.

I suspect wazkaren's LM465 is probably the same thing then.

Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: wazkaren on December 18, 2007, 04:58:37 PM
If I can find a screwdriver that fits I'll take a look. 

Greg
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: wazkaren on December 18, 2007, 05:15:38 PM
Unfortunately I don't have the right screwdriver and I managed to strip the lower screw using a driver that's too small.  By prying it open a little I can see the back of the board and I don't see any surface mount.  But I could be wrong, it's hard to see in the small opening.

Greg
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Brian H on December 18, 2007, 07:00:41 PM
Maybe older stuff left over from when Radio Shack dumped the product line. Black and Decker did also and my local job lot store had the B&D Lamp; Appliance and Outside Lamp modules in the blister packs for $5.00 each and they are 100% X10 controllable. They also had the Messenger Hub transceiver but you need a B&D remote to use that.
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Walt2 on February 03, 2008, 12:17:54 PM
Is there any retailer from which one can order a LM465, and be assured that they get one of the new ones with "softstart"?   ???

I would really need a LM14A, but I don't require 2-way plus the LM14A have been officially discontinued.  Matter of fact, I usually turn that 2-way status return feature 'off' (and try to live with AHP trying to re-enable it).  I just need the pre-set dim, or the ability to turn 'on' and go directly to a dim level without going thru 100% first.  The new LM465 can do that, and therefore, makes a good choice for me.
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Charles Sullivan on February 03, 2008, 03:15:13 PM
Is there any retailer from which one can order a LM465, and be assured that they get one of the new ones with "softstart"?   ???

I would really need a LM14A, but I don't require 2-way plus the LM14A have been officially discontinued.  Matter of fact, I usually turn that 2-way status return feature 'off' (and try to live with AHP trying to re-enable it).  I just need the pre-set dim, or the ability to turn 'on' and go directly to a dim level without going thru 100% first.  The new LM465 can do that, and therefore, makes a good choice for me.

Some of the smaller X10 resellers on eBay are probably closer to the product details than the big guys.  I've gotten most of my stuff recently from Tim at "The Home Automation Store".  Try asking him (support@authinx.com) what he knows of his current LM465 inventory.

Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: cnpalmer on February 28, 2008, 12:43:26 PM
Some of the smaller X10 resellers on eBay are probably closer to the product details than the big guys.  I've gotten most of my stuff recently from Tim at "The Home Automation Store".  Try asking him (support@authinx.com) what he knows of his current LM465 inventory.

I just purchased 30+ switches from THAS from their eBay store front. I must say, great customer service and they gave me a great package deal for the WS12A's & WS14A's I wanted. I actually received the X10 Pro counter parts to these the XPD3 & XPSS.

Also just purchased the USB video adapter from them too, lowest combined price I could find!
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Walt2 on February 28, 2008, 05:24:36 PM
I just purchased 30+ switches from THAS from their eBay store front. I must say, great customer service and they gave me a great package deal for the WS12A's & WS14A's I wanted. I actually received the X10 Pro counter parts to these the XPD3 & XPSS.

All 30 were the new design with "softstart" ?   ???
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: cnpalmer on February 28, 2008, 06:08:43 PM
Not all 30 were the XPD3, I have about 10 that are XPSS model. They all came from the same batch so I'm going to assume they are all the new design. Until I install all of them I do not know how else I can tell. From what I gather, there are no external markings or part number changes to see which ones I have.
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: steven r on February 28, 2008, 08:12:55 PM
...there are no external markings or part number changes to see which ones I have.
What are the date codes on them? Should have 2 numbers, a letter, and 2 more numbers. Some dates codes are tending to be the new ones. We might be able to tell you before you install them which ones are new.
If you would be kind enough to keep track of your date codes and post which ones are and are not the "new & improved" ones, it would greatly help the list that is being put together. What I've started doing as I put in new switches is to print a label with the date code and stick on the backside of the switch plate cover.
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: cnpalmer on February 28, 2008, 08:55:15 PM
What are the date codes on them? Should have 2 numbers, a letter, and 2 more numbers.

I checked all 15 of he XPD3 switches I purchased and they are all the same date codes.

I located a little round sticker on the back which read "07F23" on all of them.

Hopefully this helps.
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: steven r on February 28, 2008, 11:22:15 PM
I checked all 15 of he XPD3 switches I purchased and they are all the same date codes.
I located a little round sticker on the back which read "07F23" on all of them...
I think this is the most complete list (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=13006.msg74885#msg74885) that has been found so far and I didn't see "07F23" on it. Let us know if your switches turn out to be the new or the old ones so we can add that date code to the list.
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Charles Sullivan on February 28, 2008, 11:32:02 PM
...there are no external markings or part number changes to see which ones I have.
What are the date codes on them? Should have 2 numbers, a letter, and 2 more numbers. Some dates codes are tending to be the new ones. We might be able to tell you before you install them which ones are new.
If you would be kind enough to keep track of your date codes and post which ones are and are not the "new & improved" ones, it would greatly help the list that is being put together. What I've started doing as I put in new switches is to print a label with the date code and stick on the backside of the switch plate cover.

Yeah.  One of the problems we have in trying to figure out what tomfoolery X-10 is up to with the wall switches is that the date code sticker is on the back of the switch.  So reading the date code after installation requires at least opening up the switch box and pulling out the switch.

It would probably be better to write the date code on the front of the switch's aluminum plate with pencil or a Sharpie pen.

The "most complete list" you mention is for LM465, and given what we've seen there with the on-again/off-again "new & improved" it's unlikely there's any good correlation with the wall switches.

Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: cnpalmer on February 29, 2008, 10:19:32 AM
I think this is the most complete list (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=13006.msg74885#msg74885) that has been found so far and I didn't see "07F23" on it. Let us know if your switches turn out to be the new or the old ones so we can add that date code to the list.

My XPD3 switches are indeed the "new" models. These all have the same date code "07F23" and they feature the Softstart ON, Softstart OFF and DIM setting memory. I guess I just got lucky!  ;D

Now to figure out why it won't come ON from AHP!  ??? >:(

I could ask my contact at "The Home Automation Store" (THAS) what he thinks an if he has any further input.  :-\
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Walt2 on February 29, 2008, 05:27:01 PM
Now to figure out why it won't come ON from AHP!  ??? >:(

Did you define them to all be the LM14A module type?  I believe that is the only module that AHP knows about, that handles these new modules.

PS:  I am still looking for a sure source of the new type of LM465's.  I wonder if the "Pro" versions are a more likely to be one of them?
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Charles Sullivan on February 29, 2008, 07:12:09 PM
I think this is the most complete list (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=13006.msg74885#msg74885) that has been found so far and I didn't see "07F23" on it. Let us know if your switches turn out to be the new or the old ones so we can add that date code to the list.

My XPD3 switches are indeed the "new" models. These all have the same date code "07F23" and they feature the Softstart ON, Softstart OFF and DIM setting memory. I guess I just got lucky!  ;D

Now to figure out why it won't come ON from AHP!  ??? >:(

I could ask my contact at "The Home Automation Store" (THAS) what he thinks an if he has any further input.  :-\

Try programming them as an AM468 Appliance Module and see what sort of response you get from just simple On and Off commands.

Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: cnpalmer on March 01, 2008, 10:05:56 AM
Try programming them as an AM468 Appliance Module and see what sort of response you get from just simple On and Off commands.

I've had the switch programmed as an LM14A lamp module and have had limited success with it receiving an ON command.

This morning I tried programming the switch as an AM486 appliance module. I had no luck with this one.

So far, my only success, which is EXTREMELY limited, in turning the switch ON, is with it as an LM14A. One the switch is on, I can DIM and turn it OFF and turn it back on as the Softstart OFF is ramping down. But once it is OFF, it's a crap shoot if I can get it to go back ON again.
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Brian H on May 15, 2008, 06:45:35 PM
In the X10Pro site I just noticed that some of their modules are listed as "New Soft Start Model" even the XPDF fixture module is listed as Soft Start.
http://www.x10pro.com/
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: LittleLarry on August 22, 2008, 11:12:03 AM
 Well, it looks like it has been a few months so I was just checking if there is any more info on the new LM465's?

And I just want to be sure I understand the soft start feature. Does it truly allow the LM465 to be able to power an incandescent on without ramping all the way up to the full wattage of the bulb and then going back down to the dim level setting?

I think that powering to full and then going back down is very wasteful and also a little tacky looking compared to just dimming up to the desired dim level from the off state.

Also, I keep reading about the Leviton lamp modules. Are they really worth the price?

I am looking for cool dim effects, etc. for 40 watt incandescent bulbs but I do not want to waste too much money either, but do not mind spending money for quality products, which, at present, makes me wonder if x10 is a quality product or not, especially if some of the x10 companies do this kind of crazy upgrade without changing the model number. That just seems very wrong to me and could cause all kinds of problems. I don't see how something like that could get past the quality control department of any company.

Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Charles Sullivan on August 23, 2008, 12:44:25 AM
Well, it looks like it has been a few months so I was just checking if there is any more info on the new LM465's?

And I just want to be sure I understand the soft start feature. Does it truly allow the LM465 to be able to power an incandescent on without ramping all the way up to the full wattage of the bulb and then going back down to the dim level setting?

If you define the new design LM465 instead as a LM14A in ActiveHome Pro, you can go directly from Off to the desired dim level without first ramping to full brightness.

Quote

I think that powering to full and then going back down is very wasteful and also a little tacky looking compared to just dimming up to the desired dim level from the off state.

Also, I keep reading about the Leviton lamp modules. Are they really worth the price?

I am looking for cool dim effects, etc. for 40 watt incandescent bulbs but I do not want to waste too much money either, but do not mind spending money for quality products, which, at present, makes me wonder if x10 is a quality product or not, especially if some of the x10 companies do this kind of crazy upgrade without changing the model number. That just seems very wrong to me and could cause all kinds of problems. I don't see how something like that could get past the quality control department of any company.

I think most of us share your dismay at the practices of the X-10 company in this regard but elect to purchase their modules anyway because they are so inexpensive compared to other brands.

Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: LittleLarry on August 26, 2008, 09:17:21 AM

 Is the x10.com site only sending the lm465 with SoftStart now, or do they still send out the non soft start versions from time to time?

If they send you the old ones by mistake are they pretty good about returning them and sending out the soft start versions?
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Dan Lawrence on August 26, 2008, 03:26:07 PM
From what I've seen it's nit or miss as to what LM465 you get from various vendors, not just X10USA.
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: LittleLarry on August 26, 2008, 08:15:03 PM
 Even after all this time x10.com is still sometimes sending out the older non-softstarts?

That seems strange.

Since I didn't order a computer module yet (wanted to see how just a few basic lamp dimmers work with regular remotes), is there an easy way to determine if they send me the new LM465's versus the old ones? Say a certain model serial number to track or something? Thought I read that somewhere but then it sounded like since they didn't do hardware revision labels, that maybe they aren't tracking them by serial either? I hope that isn't the case. I'll dive back into the beginning of this thread for clues.

Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: dave w on August 26, 2008, 08:54:53 PM
Even after all this time x10.com is still sometimes sending out the older non-softstarts?


If you get the $49 Starter Pack" of surplus RCA modules, yes they will still be old design. I believe all X10 Powerhouse LM465s are now soft start modules.
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: LittleLarry on August 26, 2008, 09:46:13 PM

 My order wasn't $49, it was $39:

LM465-SP-3LTP-PS31    $39.99

In the photo it looks like there is a Powerhouse on the front of the LM465's. It is 3 lm465's, 1 transceiver, and 1 palm pad(hr12a).

I am also noticing on their site that they now list an RCA overstock gift pack option:

http://www.x10.com/automation/rcagiftpack.html

I didn't order that one, and now I can see the RCA logo on those. Perhaps they finally decided to distinguish between the 2 models now, or is this a 3rd model?  Old LM465, new LM465 with softstart, and RCA clone of LM465?

Anyone else place any recent orders of the LM465-SP-3LTP-PS31?

If so, what did you get with that pack, old or new softstart lm465's?






Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Brian H on August 27, 2008, 06:45:32 AM
I believe all the LM465s are now soft start, but only X10 knows for sure.
Been a while now; but I got some older ones with a Date Code between two known Soft Start Date Codes. ::)
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: steven r on August 27, 2008, 03:03:18 PM
I believe all the LM465s are now soft start, but only X10 knows for sure....
I wouldn't bet that anyone including  X10 knows for sure. Much less the poor warehouse guy packing your shipment.
Moral of the story, that X10 hasn't learned yet, is...

If you change way the hardware operates, you need to change the model number!
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Brian H on August 27, 2008, 04:11:02 PM
I believe X10Pro did. As they show new soft start model numbers and users sheets to match.
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Boiler on August 27, 2008, 05:06:21 PM
If you change way the hardware operates, you need to change the model number!

...And update your "Flagship" software so that it can reliably interface to the new units.
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Dan Lawrence on August 27, 2008, 09:25:49 PM
And KEEPS the ability to interface with the older units.
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: LittleLarry on August 29, 2008, 12:14:34 AM
 Well, I finally received my lm465's as well as the remotes and transceiver.

I must say that I am impressed compared to what I was using before to control a couple lights (old GE remote that could only turn on 1 appliance or light - had no light dimming).

Now, I 'think' I have the new lm465's with softstart and the datecode is 08b08.

When I power a lamp on from the off state, it starts out at no light and gradually ramps up to full on (the effect is very nice on the eyes).

When I dim a lamp with the remotes, and then power it off with the remote, and then turn it back on by pressing dim or bright, it comes back on at the last dim setting.

I really like the light effect, it is just as good as I was expecting.

I will be ordering a few more very soon.


Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: Brian H on August 29, 2008, 06:56:45 AM
Acts like the new soft start version. Another way to tell is does if dim below about 30%? Old ones would dim to maybe 1% the soft starts dim to abut 30%.
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: steven r on August 29, 2008, 09:54:21 AM
....When I dim a lamp with the remotes, and then power it off with the remote, and then turn it back on by pressing dim or bright, it comes back on at the last dim setting....
So the soft start LM465 will turn on it they receive a dim or bright signal?
The new soft start wall switches don't respond to a bright or dim unless you send a on first.
Title: Re: Latest Version of the LM465 Now Has "SoftStart"?!?
Post by: LittleLarry on August 29, 2008, 12:07:39 PM
"Acts like the new soft start version. Another way to tell is does if dim below about 30%? Old ones would dim to maybe 1% the soft starts dim to abut 30%."

Indeed, it does appear to dim to about 30%. If I use a 60 watt bulb and I press the dim button from full brightness, it decrements a little each time with each press of the button so after about 6 or 7 dim button presses, the light will be at its lowest setting which appears much brighter than 1% (closer to 20 or 30% if I had to guess).




So the soft start LM465 will turn on it they receive a dim or bright signal?
The new soft start wall switches don't respond to a bright or dim unless you send a on first.

Indeed, this seems to be the case, there is one caveat though. I have noticed that sometimes, at least on 2 of the lm465's, that sometimes, when I issue a dim or bright to turn the light on, that occasionally it will just go to the last dimmed setting directly and skip the nice "ramp on effect from the off state" that I like so much, not a huge deal, but intermittent things like that can be a little.....unpredictable.

It's tempermental and I was wondering if anyone else has experienced this occasional skipping of the nice on effect when using the dim or bright remote buttons to turn a light on with the new softstart lm465's. Just a little inconsistency I would say. It would be nice if every time I used the dim or bright button to turn on the light, that it would respond the same every time, but mine do not. I probably notice this more than most people however since one of the big selling points to me is the nice dimming on and off effects of the lm465.

The effect seems to be in place every time I use the On and Off buttons, but the nice effect is only in place about 40% of the time when I use a dim or bright button to power on the lamp from the off state.