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🖥️ActiveHome Pro => ActiveHome Pro General => Help & Troubleshooting => Topic started by: drmiphesto on September 19, 2007, 10:58:29 PM

Title: Activehome pro won't control anything in only one room
Post by: drmiphesto on September 19, 2007, 10:58:29 PM
I need some help here - this one has me stumped. Activehome Pro and CM15a - everything in the house works just fine with it except for modules and light switches in one room. They work fine with remotes but activehome pro won't turn them on and off. I put a 4816b plug in dryer coupler in thinking it was a phase issue but it didn't fix the problem. I used my signal meter and plugged it in to some sockets in the room and I get signals with any remote, but not with activehome - I take the meter and plug it in any other room and the signal is just fine. Any ideas what is causing this? When the coupler didn't fix the issue I completely got stumped. Thanks!

Forgot to add - the signal meter shows no line noise whatsoever - it is completely clean.


[TTA Edit: Combined 2 consecutive posts; corrected 1 typo.]
Title: Re: Activehome pro won't control anything in only one room
Post by: Charles Sullivan on September 20, 2007, 12:34:21 AM
Quote from: drmiphesto on September 19, 2007, 10:59:49 PM
Forgot to add - the signal meter shows mo line noise whatsoever - it is completely clean.

It's likely you have a "signal sucker" in your house - an appliance like a TV or VCR with heavy capacitive filtering at its AC input.  Try unplugging all such appliance from the wall (merely turning off isn't sufficient) and retesting.  If you find the offender, get an X10 plug-in Noise Filter and insert between the appliance and the wall socket.  (Plug-in transmitters and transceivers have a somewhat higher signal output than the CM15A and are likely to work when the CM15A doesn't.)

Title: Re: Activehome pro won't control anything in only one room
Post by: drmiphesto on September 20, 2007, 04:40:14 PM
Thanks for the reply. I have noise filters on all TV's, etc. also so I don't think that is it. I get 0 signal response on my signal meter in that room but every other room is fine. I have a plasma TV but I have a filter on there so I am stumped. Any ideas?
Title: Re: Activehome pro won't control anything in only one room
Post by: Boiler on September 20, 2007, 05:25:05 PM
Quote from: drmiphesto on September 20, 2007, 04:40:14 PM
Thanks for the reply. I have noise filters on all TV's, etc. also so I don't think that is it. I get 0 signal response on my signal meter in that room but every other room is fine. I have a plasma TV but I have a filter on there so I am stumped. Any ideas?

drmiphesto,

From your first post, it sounds like you have a fair amount of experience with troubleshooting X10.

I do have a number of questions about your configuration:


If you are using a separate Transceiver for RF (and that is making it to your problem room) you may have a signal sucker between the room and your CM15a.  I've seen some wild wiring branches over the years (Microwaves on bathroom circuits, etc.).  It's possible that you have a device (signal sucker) on this branch that's not obvious.

Boiler


[TTA Edit: Added omitted {/li} to last entry in LIST.]
Title: Re: Activehome pro won't control anything in only one room
Post by: HA Dave on September 20, 2007, 05:34:23 PM
Quote from: drmiphesto on September 20, 2007, 04:40:14 PM

............ I get 0 signal response on my signal meter in that room but every other room is fine. I have a plasma TV but I have a filter on there so I am stumped. Any ideas?


Whats different about that room? Are the same house codes used in other (working) rooms.

Does units (modules) that don't work in that room.... work in other rooms?

Does that room share a circut with a working room? What is the signal response on that curcit in the other room(s)?

Title: Re: Activehome pro won't control anything in only one room
Post by: drmiphesto on September 20, 2007, 05:35:14 PM
Thanks for the replies. I forgot to add that additional info:


The only reason this started was because I was not receiving a response in activehome for the ccwhisper which is two way. I then got to noticing that nothing in the room was responding via activehome but worked fine with remote.

It may be a signal sucker somewhere but my gosh it would be hard to troubleshoot. Is there a way to up the output of the CM15a maybe?

UPDATE #1:
Quote from: Dave_x10_L on September 20, 2007, 05:34:23 PM
Quote from: drmiphesto on September 20, 2007, 04:40:14 PM

............ I get 0 signal response on my signal meter in that room but every other room is fine. I have a plasma TV but I have a filter on there so I am stumped. Any ideas?

Whats different about that room? Are the same house codes used in other (working) rooms.

Does units (modules) that don't work in that room.... work in other rooms?

Does that room share a circut with a working room? What is the signal response on that curcit in the other room(s)?

OK to add to the weirdness... I have a spare 4826b coupler repeater that I took out because of the dimming issues and I plugged it in to test. Now I get sporatic usage of the LM465 - but absolutely no signal shows up on the signal meter! Sometimes it is working, sometimes it won't but even when it does respond there is 0 signal showing on the meter. Now I'm really stumped. So I grabbed a remote and hit it and bam -- the LM465 worked and there was a good signal on the meter.

UPDATE #2: This is the master bedroom - I am sure it is on a different circuit than the other rooms. The modules work fine in the other rooms also. Just no signal at all in this room. If a phase coupler didn't do the trick I don't know what will. Does anyone know if there is a way to up the output signal of the CM15a?

UPDATE #3: --- I had the v572a unit plugged into the problem bedroom outlets. I took the V572a and moved it to one of the other rooms and now the lights in the problem room won't work even by remote. This surely sounds like a phase issue to me but I am stumped as to why the phase couplers aren't fixing the issue.


NOTE to drmiphesto: In the top-right corner of each of your posts is a MODIFY Box. CLICK on that and you can EDIT any of your previous posts (instead of adding consecutive new ones). FYI... :)

[TTA Edit: Combine 4 consecutive posts into 1. Re-formatted Q&A section for readability.]
Title: Re: Activehome pro won't control anything in only one room
Post by: Brian H on September 20, 2007, 06:23:40 PM
Passive phase couplers only couple the signal and noise where it connects. If you have a full strength signal at the CM15A lets say and by the time the signal gets to the coupler it is at 25% of full. Only 25% is then coupled back to the other phase. Also any noise at the coupler is also sent back on the other phase.
Title: Re: Activehome pro won't control anything in only one room
Post by: Puck on September 20, 2007, 06:33:22 PM
Quote from: drmiphesto on September 20, 2007, 05:51:09 PM
This is the master bedroom -

If your home is of recent construction, you may have an Arc Fault Breaker on that circuit. These have been reported to cause X10 issues.
Title: Re: Activehome pro won't control anything in only one room
Post by: Boiler on September 20, 2007, 06:36:47 PM
drmiphesto,

Sounds like you have a nice system.  It also sounds as if most of your X10 devices are on the same phase with the exception of your problem room.

Your 4816b is a passive coupler.  It will work fine for moderate installations without too much signal absorption.  You may require an active coupler to reliably transmit too your opposite phase.  I'm guessing that moving your VT572 also moved it to the opposite phase of your system.  The result was intermittent X10 operation (VT572 may have a higher output level than the CM15a).

Active couplers are not without their own problems.  Have a look at the following:

[VOLUNTEERS] *Comprehensive* Filter, Passive Coupler & Signal Analyzer LINK List  (Read 3263 times) (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=11184.0)
As a side note, your two way modules are themselves X10 signal absorbers.  You should probably try some more experimenting with locations before making the jump to an active coupler (quantify your existing problem first).  I've had good results placing my CM15a at the breaker panel.  I have quite a few two way X10 devices.  Without an active coupler I cannot transmit to the opposite phase.  I had problems with my active coupler (HCM02) a few weeks ago and tried putting the old passive back in.  NO GO.  I registered nothing on the opposite phase.

You can also try popping breakers to other branches in to isolate heavy X10 loads.


[TTA Edit: Editted LINK description to display full title of referenced thread for informational purposes.]
Title: Re: Activehome pro won't control anything in only one room
Post by: drmiphesto on September 20, 2007, 07:02:48 PM
Fantastic responses. Thanks a ton guys. And thanks for the compliments ;-)

OK so now from what I am gathering from the responses is that the 4826b and the 4816 plug in couplers are passive couplers. So I need to try an active coupler and see if that takes care of the issue with the problem room? It sounds to me like that would be the easiest solution. Am I right on this?

I've done enough with x10 over the years to say I am far from a newb, but still far from an expert too, so I really do appreciate all the help everyone!

UPDATE #1: By the way -- please don't kill me with this question! But what is the difference between an active and a passive phase coupler?

UPDATE #2:
Quote from: Puck on September 20, 2007, 06:33:22 PM
Quote from: drmiphesto on September 20, 2007, 05:51:09 PM
This is the master bedroom -

If your home is of recent construction, you may have an Arc Fault Breaker on that circuit. These have been reported to cause X10 issues.

The house was built in 1995. How can I tell if I have an Arc Fault Breaker?

By the way, I just found out that the 4826b is in fact an active coupler - so maybe I need an active coupler hard wired in?


[TTA Edit: Combine 3 consecutive posts into 1.]
Title: Re: Activehome pro won't control anything in only one room
Post by: Puck on September 20, 2007, 07:11:52 PM
Quote from: drmiphesto on September 20, 2007, 07:07:14 PM
Quote from: Puck on September 20, 2007, 06:33:22 PM
Quote from: drmiphesto on September 20, 2007, 05:51:09 PM
This is the master bedroom -

If your home is of recent construction, you may have an Arc Fault Breaker on that circuit. These have been reported to cause X10 issues.


The house was built in 1995. How can I tell if I have an Arc Fault Breaker?

By the way, I just found out that the 4826b is in fact an active coupler - so maybe I need an active coupler hard wired in?

I don't have any in my house, but I believe they have a wire that comes off the breaker and attaches to the Neutral bar.
Title: Re: Activehome pro won't control anything in only one room
Post by: Boiler on September 20, 2007, 07:40:33 PM
Quote from: drmiphesto on September 20, 2007, 05:51:09 PM
The house was built in 1995. How can I tell if I have an Arc Fault Breaker?

By the way, I just found out that the 4826b is in fact an active coupler - so maybe I need an active coupler hard wired in?

I don't believe the Arc Fault was in use in 1995.  I built my house in 2001 and I don't have any.

You originally mentioned a 4816b coupler (passive).  Is your unit in fact the 4826b (active) coupler (with leds)?  This should improve your coupling for normal signals (on/off) but have some issues as well. 

We're moving a bit fast here.  I'd really encourage you to analyze your system.  Determine which phase your CM15a and "problem room" are on.  You should be able to do this by inspection from your breaker panel (see below).  If they are on opposite phases a coupler/repeater "may" help.  If they are on the same phase it won't
(you have a local problem with that branch).

Again, try isolating your other circuits by popping breakers.  Try this with your CM15a on both phases.  Use your Elk signal meter to measure the level in your problem area VS other areas.  Doing this can same you money and additional complications.
Title: Re: Activehome pro won't control anything in only one room
Post by: drmiphesto on September 20, 2007, 08:54:33 PM
Quote from: Boiler on September 20, 2007, 07:40:33 PM
Quote from: drmiphesto on September 20, 2007, 05:51:09 PM
The house was built in 1995. How can I tell if I have an Arc Fault Breaker?

By the way, I just found out that the 4826b is in fact an active coupler - so maybe I need an active coupler hard wired in?

I don't believe the Arc Fault was in use in 1995.  I built my house in 2001 and I don't have any.

You originally mentioned a 4816b coupler (passive).  Is your unit in fact the 4826b (active) coupler (with leds)?  This should improve your coupling for normal signals (on/off) but have some issues as well. 

We're moving a bit fast here.  I'd really encourage you to analyze your system.  Determine which phase your CM15a and "problem room" are on.  You should be able to do this by inspection from your breaker panel (see below).  If they are on opposite phases a coupler/repeater "may" help.  If they are on the same phase it won't
(you have a local problem with that branch).

Again, try isolating your other circuits by popping breakers.  Try this with your CM15a on both phases.  Use your Elk signal meter to measure the level in your problem area VS other areas.  Doing this can same you money and additional complications.

i actually have the 4826b coupler/repeater and the 4816 coupler - tried them both.

I did move the CM15a to the problem room sockets and of course, that room responded fine but now the rest of the house doesn't. So it seems like a phase issue. I know an electrician so I may just have him over to see what we can do about it. This is driving me nuts ;-)
Title: Re: Activehome pro won't control anything in only one room
Post by: Boiler on September 20, 2007, 09:33:49 PM
Quote from: drmiphesto on September 20, 2007, 08:54:33 PM
i actually have the 4826b coupler/repeater and the 4816 coupler - tried them both.

I did move the CM15a to the problem room sockets and of course, that room responded fine but now the rest of the house doesn't. So it seems like a phase issue. I know an electrician so I may just have him over to see what we can do about it. This is driving me nuts ;-)

Great,
You just made some progress.  Your CM15a will communicate when it's on the same branch.  I you can try another branch circuit on the same phase you may be able to isolate it to a phase problem (assuming it works).  If it doesn't work, you have a heavy load or noise source between your bedroom and the breaker panel.

If you do enlist the help of your friend, by all means show him you Elk meter and signal couplers.  Most electricians aren't experienced with X10 issues but he should pick up on it quickly (they have enough to deal with keeping up with electrical codes).  He'll definitely be able to identify the different phases for your rooms.   

Let us know what you find.

Boiler
Title: Re: Activehome pro won't control anything in only one room
Post by: Brian H on September 21, 2007, 06:22:13 AM
Actually an active phase coupler is a poor term. Most call them an X10 repeater or repeater coupler.
Title: Re: Activehome pro won't control anything in only one room
Post by: TakeTheActive on September 21, 2007, 07:31:22 AM
Quote from: drmiphesto on September 20, 2007, 04:40:14 PM

...I have noise filters on all TV's, etc. also so I don't think that is it. I get 0 signal response on my signal meter in that room but every other room is fine...

As Charles Sullivan already stated, it appears that you have a 'Signal Sucker' (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=11884.msg72580#msg72580) and/or 'Noise Generator' (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=11884.msg72580#msg72580) on that Circuit, not necessarily in that Room.

Quote from: drmiphesto on September 20, 2007, 04:40:14 PM

...I am stumped. Any ideas?

Begin here (QUOTING from one of my *MANY* TakeTheActive-to-Newbie replies in the Archives):

Without a proper foundation in X10 knowledge and a logical plan-of-action, successfully troubleshooting and solving an X10 problem is like hitting the bullseye on a dart board while throwing the darts BLINDFOLDED (*AFTER* someone randomly spun you around! :D ). But, if you've got money to burn... ::)

Rather than volley back-and-forth with 'Try this...', 'Didn't work? Well then, try this...', I prefer to get Newbies up to a 'known' knowledge level and then work from there.

For a solid foundation of X10 Operation, please start off by reading:

JV Digital Engineering's X10 Troubleshooting Tutorials Series (http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm) (http://www.geocities.com/taketheactive/Images/X10_New.gif)

Then:
MAP / MEASURE / CORRECT (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=9899.msg62635#msg62635) - be sure to read the EXCELLENT articles written by JeffVolp and Puck (http://www.geocities.com/taketheactive/Images/X10_Updated_blue_sm_wte.gif)

Finally, with your CIRCUIT MAP and SIGNAL METER in hand, finish up with:

TTA's X10 Troubleshooting Tips Thread [Updated: 2007/03/05]  (Read 8660 times) (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=9899.msg57582#msg57582)

As both Jeff Volp and I say:

Quote
I understand that most users don't want to hear this but

to have a reliable X10 System requires a substantial upfront investment in time and effort

To Get a Reliable X10 System (and I mean RELIABLE), One Has To Do Some Homework (courtesy of Jeff Volp) (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=10187.msg58732#msg58732) (http://www.geocities.com/taketheactive/Images/X10_New.gif)

You're at an advantage over many other X10 Members - you already own a Signal Meter. Now you need to make good use of it. ;)

Here's a "Quick-N-Easy" Starter Idea for you:


What did you discover?

Have fun and keep us all updated with your progress! :)
Title: Re: Activehome pro won't control anything in only one room
Post by: TakeTheActive on September 21, 2007, 07:52:46 AM
Quote from: drmiphesto on September 20, 2007, 05:35:14 PM

It may be a signal sucker somewhere but my gosh it would be hard to troubleshoot...

No it isn't hard at all. See my previous post. You just need a plan. (http://www.x10community.com/forums/Themes/x10theme1/images/post/lamp.gif)

Quote from: drmiphesto on September 20, 2007, 05:35:14 PM

...Is there a way to up the output of the CM15a maybe?

If you were trying to communicate with your wife and your children were screaming, would you scream louder, or would you ask the children to please settle down? ;)
Title: Re: Activehome pro won't control anything in only one room
Post by: TakeTheActive on September 21, 2007, 09:32:03 AM
Quote from: drmiphesto on September 20, 2007, 05:35:14 PM

...This is the master bedroom - I am sure it is on a different circuit than the other rooms...

Quote from: Boiler on September 20, 2007, 06:36:47 PM

...It also sounds as if most of your X10 devices are on the same phase with the exception of your problem room....

Until (unless?) you MAP out all of your Circuits, how can you know this? ???

Quote from: drmiphesto on September 20, 2007, 05:35:14 PM

OK to add to the weirdness... I have a spare 4826b coupler repeater that I took out because of the dimming issues and I plugged it in to test. Now I get sporatic usage of the LM465 - but absolutely no signal shows up on the signal meter! Sometimes it is working, sometimes it won't but even when it does respond there is 0 signal showing on the meter. Now I'm really stumped...

SEARCH the Archives, or read through JeffVolp's Excellent Tutorials, but individual modules have a variable minimum response threshold, as does the Elk ESM1, due to manufacturing tolerances. The Signal Strength in that room could be right on the verge.

Quote from: Boiler on September 20, 2007, 07:40:33 PM

...We're moving a bit fast here.  I'd really encourage you to analyze your system.  Determine which phase your CM15a and "problem room" are on.  You should be able to do this by inspection from your breaker panel (see below)...

...Again, try isolating your other circuits by popping breakers.  Try this with your CM15a on both phases.  Use your Elk signal meter to measure the level in your problem area VS other areas.  Doing this can same you money and additional complications.

I can't believe that I've been reading, replying and editing this thread for over TWO HOURS now (Yeah, I'm slow... :-[ ) but, drmiphesto, I certainly can sense your high level of frustration. :(

Are you ready to put down your shotgun yet?

You can keep guessing, or you can follow my "plan". The "plan" involves a SERIOUS investment of your time. But, once it's done, it's done. Send the wife and children out of the house for a few hours for a "Movie and a Pizza" and Map out all of your Circuits. THEN, you can begin to troubleshoot your problem.

BTW, I suggest REMOVING *ALL* amplifiers / couplers / repeaters during the initial Map. You need to see WHERE YOU ARE before you start "fixing"...

Wishing you success - it's Friday - hopefully, you have 2¼ days off to put your X10 problems to bed. :D
Title: Re: Activehome pro won't control anything in only one room
Post by: TakeTheActive on September 25, 2007, 01:23:22 AM
Quote from: TakeTheActive on September 21, 2007, 09:32:03 AM

...Are you ready to put down your shotgun yet?

You can keep guessing, or you can follow my "plan". The "plan" involves a SERIOUS investment of your time. But, once it's done, it's done. Send the wife and children out of the house for a few hours for a "Movie and a Pizza" and Map out all of your Circuits. THEN, you can begin to troubleshoot your problem.

BTW, I suggest REMOVING *ALL* amplifiers / couplers / repeaters during the initial Map. You need to see WHERE YOU ARE before you start "fixing"...

Wishing you success - it's Friday - hopefully, you have 2¼ days off to put your X10 problems to bed. :D

The weekend (2¼ days) has passed. :(

After that FLURRY of posts on 09/20/2007 ::), I (and I'm sure many other LURKERs) are curious as to your current status. ???

drmiphesto, What did you discover?
How about an update?
???