X10 Community Forum

🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Topic started by: petef on October 13, 2007, 03:11:58 AM

Title: When is a licensed electrician required?
Post by: petef on October 13, 2007, 03:11:58 AM
I am a handyman who does NOT have a license to do electrical work.
For installing X-10 systems, I'd like to know when it's generally required
to hire a licensed electrician.

For example, we all know that simply plugging in x-10 modules or controllers
into existing outlets does not require a licensed electrician but is it legal
in most municipalities to replace an existing light switch with an x-10
dimmer module that needs to be wired in?

---pete---
Title: Re: When is a licensed electrician required?
Post by: Dan Lawrence on October 13, 2007, 08:33:10 AM
Most areas allow homeowners to replace light switches, a licensed electrician is needed to add wiring, circuit breakers, 220 volt circuits, etc. When I got X10 20+ years ago, I did all the replacement of light switches with wall switches myself. 
Title: Re: When is a licensed electrician required?
Post by: steven r on October 13, 2007, 08:41:09 AM
Quote from: Dan Lawrence on October 13, 2007, 08:33:10 AM
Most areas allow homeowners to replace light switches, a licensed electrician is needed to add wiring...
The key word here is "homeowner" and how your municipality decides to interpret the word. i.e. They might let you change your own light switch but not to let you charge someone to change someone else's.
Title: Re: When is a licensed electrician required?
Post by: HA Dave on October 13, 2007, 10:43:57 AM
Quote from: petef on October 13, 2007, 03:11:58 AM

............ is it legal in most municipalities ..............


It only matters what is both SAFE and LEGAL in YOUR municipality.
Title: Re: When is a licensed electrician required?
Post by: -Bill- (of wgjohns.com) on October 13, 2007, 06:01:18 PM
Yes, you really need to research what is acceptable in YOUR municipality.

For instance:
Where I live, it would normally be legal for me to replace a light switch in my house, but if I hired someone to do it, he or she would have to have a license.

However, there is a special rule for "manufactured homes" within my county that requires that ALL electrical modifications to a "manufactured home" be done by a licensed electrician, AND inspected by a county inspector!   :o

What a PITA!   :P   ;D
Title: Re: When is a licensed electrician required?
Post by: Walt2 on October 13, 2007, 08:30:52 PM
You need to call city/town hall, and ask.    ;)

As mentioned, it various quite a bit from area to area.   Some places there are no requirements at all for anyone.  In others, not even a homeowner can do it.
Title: Re: When is a licensed electrician required?
Post by: KDR on October 13, 2007, 09:50:58 PM
All of the above is excellent advise. To add to this I would have to say that ones knowledge of electricity and understanding of the current National Electric Code (NEC) is a must. In addition to that you need to know and understand the local codes that applie for your location which can be differant then NEC's requirements. If you do electrical work for profit, charge people, most municipalities say you must be licensed and bonded and registered to do work in that city. Some places allow you to do electrical work if the service is free to a person (friend) provided it passes an inspection.

To answer your question, when should you call an electrician... When you don't fully understand how something should and will work before you start, if you don't understand how to make the necessary tests to make the job safe for you and/or people around you and if you don't know what the codes are for what you are trying to do. If you can't answer YES to the above 3 items please call an electrician so you can come back here and post some more.  ;D

ALSO Please call an electrician if...
you use Penney's in your fuse box
you staple extention cords to the wall
you use high wattage light bulbs for additional heat
you use masking tape to insulate wires
you have to tape your circuit breaker in the on postion
you blow dry your hair while soaking in the tub
your color blind
you claim your blindness on your income tax return
your friends call you Sparky
you think bonding a box means gluing it
you had straight hair before you started wiring and now its curly
your light comes on before you flip the switch
you think finding the hot wire means touching it
you have pee'ed on an electric fence 1 or more times
The staff in the emergency room call you by your first name "Hi Sparky"
and the list goes on...  :D

(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)----KDR
Title: Re: When is a licensed electrician required?
Post by: steven r on October 13, 2007, 10:34:24 PM
Quote from: -Bill- (of wgjohns.com) on October 13, 2007, 06:01:18 PM
...there is a special rule for "manufactured homes" within my county that requires that ALL electrical modifications to a "manufactured home" be done by a licensed electrician, AND inspected by a county inspector!...
Strong electrician union in your town or is the mayor's brother an electrician?

BTW... How do they define a "manufactured home"? What would a non-manufactured home be?

A true example of over legislation.
Title: Re: When is a licensed electrician required?
Post by: Walt2 on October 14, 2007, 08:26:06 AM
Quote from: steven r on October 13, 2007, 10:34:24 PM

BTW... How do they define a "manufactured home"? What would a non-manufactured home be?


What us simple people would call a trailer.   ;D

Some trailers have rather unusual power connections, though safe, are designed to be cheap without regard to being able to do any rework later.  For example, you can't simply take out a trailer's wall switch and replace it with a regular wall switch you just bought at HD.
Title: Re: When is a licensed electrician required?
Post by: -Bill- (of wgjohns.com) on October 14, 2007, 03:54:19 PM
Quote from: steven r on October 13, 2007, 10:34:24 PM
Quote from: -Bill- (of wgjohns.com) on October 13, 2007, 06:01:18 PM
...there is a special rule for "manufactured homes" within my county that requires that ALL electrical modifications to a "manufactured home" be done by a licensed electrician, AND inspected by a county inspector!...
Strong electrician union in your town or is the mayor's brother an electrician?

BTW... How do they define a "manufactured home"? What would a non-manufactured home be?

A true example of over legislation.


Yes, they do a lot of over legislation out here on the "left coast"!   ;D

I think it is a throwback to the days when most manufactured homes were basically glorified trailers.

The definition (around here anyway) seems to be any home that wasn't "stick built" on site.

Mine is actually better in a lot of ways than most "stick built" homes.  Better insulation, etc.

The walls are all sheetrocked, not just thin paneling.

The wiring is actually quite normal with typical hardware store outlets and switches, etc.

The only real difference is that it was built on a metal frame in a factory and trucked in to the home site in two sections.

In my case, it's silly, really, but that's the code!   ???   :-\
Title: Re: When is a licensed electrician required?
Post by: dave w on October 14, 2007, 06:00:32 PM
Quote from: KDR on October 13, 2007, 09:50:58 PM

ALSO Please call an electrician if...
you use Penney's in your fuse box
you staple extention cords to the wall
you use high wattage light bulbs for additional heat
you use masking tape to insulate wires
you have to tape your circuit breaker in the on postion
you blow dry your hair while soaking in the tub
your color blind
you claim your blindness on your income tax return
your friends call you Sparky
you think bonding a box means gluing it
you had straight hair before you started wiring and now its curly
your light comes on before you flip the switch
you think finding the hot wire means touching it
you have pee'ed on an electric fence 1 or more times
The staff in the emergency room call you by your first name "Hi Sparky"
and the list goes on...  :D


I laughed so hard, I couldn't get my breath and wife had to take me to the ER. Bra-ha-ha-ha, sputter, chortle, snort, ha-ha-ha-ha choke, wheeze.........
Title: Re: When is a licensed electrician required?
Post by: steven r on October 14, 2007, 09:51:50 PM
Quote from: dave w on October 14, 2007, 06:00:32 PM
Quote from: KDR on October 13, 2007, 09:50:58 PM

ALSO Please call an electrician if...
you use Penney's in your fuse box
you staple extention cords to the wall
you use high wattage light bulbs for additional heat
you use masking tape to insulate wires
you have to tape your circuit breaker in the on postion
you blow dry your hair while soaking in the tub
your color blind
you claim your blindness on your income tax return
your friends call you Sparky
you think bonding a box means gluing it
you had straight hair before you started wiring and now its curly
your light comes on before you flip the switch
you think finding the hot wire means touching it
you have pee'ed on an electric fence 1 or more times
The staff in the emergency room call you by your first name "Hi Sparky"
and the list goes on...  :D


I laughed so hard, I couldn't get my breath and wife had to take me to the ER....
Well I didn't need to visit the ER, perhaps if the chair that I rolled out of had been higher I would of but I too enjoyed the humor enough to clip and email it to others. Thanks.
Title: Re: When is a licensed electrician required?
Post by: petef on October 15, 2007, 03:03:25 AM
Wow!!! Thanks everyone for all the detailed replies!  :)

Bottom line seems to be I need to contact the local municipality where I plan
to do the work to see what their laws are regarding installing a wired x-10 module.

I do know all about electrical codes and wiring so that's not a worry to me.
I just looking to avoid legal problems in regards to installing wired x-10 modules.

Unfortunately, within the 10 mile radius of my service area there must be a dozen
or more municipalities to deal with and it does not seem cost efective to have to
research each one. I wonder what other handymen or x-10 installers do?

---pete---
Title: Re: When is a licensed electrician required?
Post by: G. L.Tirebiter on October 15, 2007, 09:06:31 AM
An important issue, that seems to be left out, is to be sure you check with your local Commissar.

Any belief you have that you own your house (and therefore can make reasonable and minor modifications)  will be quickly dispelled. In fact, for most, the bank owns yours house and you are simply a source of funds. If, by some fault of the system, you escape that, then your home is owned in the following order:

1. Your HOA.
2. Your City goverment.
3. Your County govenrment.
4. Dept. of Homeland Security.
5. Dept. of Redundancy Department.
6. Your Home Owners insurance company.
7. Your Health insurance company.
8. Barring #7, then by your doctor - oh face it, it is just a matter of time until you owe him EVERYTHING.
9. Any "environmentalist" that thinks anything other than people live on "the" (not your) property.
(This happened to me - ever heard of an "eagle"?)
10. Your lawyer, if you ever make a mistake, or if you don't agree with any of the above.

But less seriously, I was an electricians apprentice at one point in my life. Went to school a couple of months and then was placed in the field. It was expected that I wire an entire house from the breakers, to the outlets, to the switches, to the fluorescents, to the door bell, to the bathroom fans, to stuff I can't remember, in about 6 hours.

Quality control consisted of turning everything on and see if it worked. Usually one thing didn't, and the wirenuts were tightened. I sincerely hope you do not own one of those houses.

However, if you think you do, NEVER attempt to check things without proper govermental authority. It's only right. Never trust yourself, unless someone tells you it is OK.

G

P.S. And remember, no reading of books on the subject, information in the wrong hands is DANGEROUS! (In my opinion those books (especially electrical ones) should be BANNED and then BURNED - they promote a false sense of security.)
Title: Re: When is a licensed electrician required?
Post by: HA Dave on October 15, 2007, 07:03:39 PM
Quote from: G. L.Tirebiter on October 15, 2007, 09:06:31 AM
.

............I was an electricians apprentice at one point in my life..........................Quality control consisted of turning everything on and see if it worked. Usually one thing didn't, and the wirenuts were tightened. I sincerely hope you do not own one of those houses.


I OJT'ed with an electrician... it was before the days of rechargeable drills... we would run (some) wire live so would have power to drill holes.

Title: Re: When is a licensed electrician required?
Post by: Aquadeveloper on October 16, 2007, 04:48:38 PM
I'm glad I'm not the only one who remembers pennys in a fuse box.
 :P