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📸Cameras & Camera Software => Camera General Discussion => Topic started by: birdzeye on November 22, 2007, 10:59:04 AM

Title: Warspying and wireless cameras
Post by: birdzeye on November 22, 2007, 10:59:04 AM
Hi,
After setting up several cameras in my house, I've realised that I've essentially "bugged" my own home :o. Anyone with a special video receiver can tap into my camera transmission and see and hear everything in my house. So I was wondering if at least I could disable the microphone that's in the camera somehow. Or does anyone know how to prevent this kind of thing from happening. Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Warspying and wireless cameras
Post by: HA Dave on November 22, 2007, 08:59:00 PM
Quote from: birdzeye on November 22, 2007, 10:59:04 AM
Hi,
After setting up several cameras in my house, I've realised that I've essentially "bugged" my own home :o.


Actually... as I am sure you know... only the cameras that are ON transmitt anything. I would assume if you have any cameras ON 24/7... they would be outside cams. Therefore anyone getting close enough to listen-in, would only hear feedback.

However... I don't think it would be too difficult to "disable" the microphone. I would try putting a like dab of play-doh, plumbers putty, modeling clay, or chalk over the little "microphone hole".
Title: Re: Warspying and wireless cameras
Post by: birdzeye on November 22, 2007, 09:13:48 PM
Quote from: Dave_x10_L on November 22, 2007, 08:59:00 PM

Hi,
After setting up several cameras in my house, I've realised that I've essentially "bugged" my own home :o.


Actually... as I am sure you know... only the cameras that are ON transmitt anything. I would assume if you have any cameras ON 24/7... they would be outside cams. Therefore anyone getting close enough to listen-in, would only hear feedback.

However... I don't think it would be too difficult to "disable" the microphone. I would try putting a like dab of play-doh, plumbers putty, modeling clay, or chalk over the little "microphone hole".
Quote


Dave,
My cameras are all inside the house, pointing out thru a window. And from what I've been reading on the web, people can just sit in their car with a video receiver and tap into all of your camera video plus audio. Is this true? Can they also turn ON the cameras if they have an x10 remote?

Where's the "microphone hole" located on the camera? I can't find it.
Title: Re: Warspying and wireless cameras
Post by: birdzeye on November 22, 2007, 09:32:05 PM
Dave I found the "microphone hole" in the x10 wiki. Disregard that part from my last post.
Thanks.
Title: Re: Warspying and wireless cameras
Post by: HA Dave on November 22, 2007, 09:37:07 PM
Quote from: birdzeye on November 22, 2007, 09:13:48 PM

Dave,
My cameras are all inside the house, pointing out thru a window. And from what I've been reading on the web, people can just sit in their car with a video receiver and tap into all of your camera video plus audio. Is this true? Can they also turn ON the cameras if they have an x10 remote?

Where's the "microphone hole" located on the camera? I can't find it.

I altered a camera image and placed a BIG dot... near where you will find a tiny hole.... thats the microphone hole.

Title: Re: Warspying and wireless cameras
Post by: HA Dave on November 22, 2007, 09:41:52 PM
Quote from: birdzeye on November 22, 2007, 09:13:48 PM

... from what I've been reading on the web, people can just sit in their car with a video receiver and tap into all of your camera video plus audio. Is this true? Can they also turn ON the cameras if they have an x10 remote?


If you read that on the Web.... it must be true. However... where as it may be possible, it is also unlikely.
Title: Re: Warspying and wireless cameras
Post by: birdzeye on November 22, 2007, 09:56:43 PM
Quote from: Dave_x10_L on November 22, 2007, 09:41:52 PM
Quote from: birdzeye on November 22, 2007, 09:13:48 PM

... from what I've been reading on the web, people can just sit in their car with a video receiver and tap into all of your camera video plus audio. Is this true? Can they also turn ON the cameras if they have an x10 remote?


If you read that on the Web.... it must be true. However... where as it may be possible, it is also unlikely.

Even if you're a spy from say, China, where the cameras come from in the first place? Actually kind of a clever way

to get into the homes of citizens of the biggest superpower on the planet.  ;)

But seriously, I've read many articles in newspapers ranging from Private Investigators to Law enforcement officials to high-school geeks who show how easy it is to spy on these cameras. I hope the putty over the microphone hole plugs the sound, Dave, I'm feeling paranoid now.
Title: Re: Warspying and wireless cameras
Post by: HA Dave on November 23, 2007, 06:49:32 PM
Quote from: birdzeye on November 22, 2007, 09:56:43 PM

But seriously, I've read many articles in newspapers ranging from Private Investigators to Law enforcement officials to high-school geeks who show how easy it is to spy on these cameras. I hope the putty over the microphone hole plugs the sound, Dave, I'm feeling paranoid now.


Listening in on people isn't new (or even legal... in most places). Even when I was a child Big Ear listening devices (toys) were sold... and still are (http://www.defensedevices.com/big-ear-parabolic-dish.html).

Because of the limited range, and directional broadcast of the X10 cameras.... I would find it difficult to believe that someone could use them against you.... and NOT be seen.

If your truly worried about someone turning ON your cameras remotely don't transceive their house code. You could control them directly through PLC and use a plug-in remote to control them. You could even use AHP, and create a macro that turns on a lamp or a radio anytime a camera comes ON.
Title: Re: Warspying and wireless cameras
Post by: birdzeye on November 24, 2007, 10:49:52 AM
Quote from: Dave_x10_L on November 23, 2007, 06:49:32 PM

If your truly worried about someone turning ON your cameras remotely don't transceive their house code. You could control them directly through PLC and use a plug-in remote to control them. You could even use AHP, and create a macro that turns on a lamp or a radio anytime a camera comes ON.

Dave, thanks for the info. Could you please explain the part again about not transceiving the house code. What's PLC and a plug-in remote?

BTW interesting website link. I didn't know tear gas could be purchased over the internet! :o


Title: Re: Warspying and wireless cameras
Post by: Brian H on November 24, 2007, 01:14:35 PM
The cameras are controlled by powerline signals. If you are using a remote like the CR13A it sends an RF signal to a transceiver that converts it to a powerline signal.
Some X10 Transceivers are TM751; RR501; the RF receiver in a CM15A [this one you can set which house codes are tranceived and run triggered macros].
Some of the plug in controllers from X10 are the MiniController; Maxicontroller and the new TM12A MiniTimer.
Title: Re: Warspying and wireless cameras
Post by: HA Dave on November 24, 2007, 04:03:46 PM
Brian H is correct! You can even turn ON (and off) your cameras using the X10 floodlights (PR511) which also sends a PLC signal instead of RF. I do that, myself.

I also use BVC (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=13870.0) to receive a verbal warning when the cameras (and most other things) are turned ON. You can see this via video on my Web Page (http://davesdomainonline.com/bvc/bvc.htm).
Title: Re: Warspying and wireless cameras
Post by: birdzeye on November 24, 2007, 07:49:35 PM
Quote from: Dave_x10_L on November 23, 2007, 06:49:32 PM
If your truly worried about someone turning ON your cameras remotely don't transceive their house code. You could control them directly through PLC and use a plug-in remote to control them. You could even use AHP, and create a macro that turns on a lamp or a radio anytime a camera comes ON.

I don't understand this, Dave. How would I control my cameras directly thru PLC, and for that matter what is PLC?

Brian mentioned I could use a controller like the MiniTimer. Could someone explain how I would control my camera with the MiniTimer? Would I still need the TM751 and the camera remote CR12A that I already have purchased? ???
Title: Re: Warspying and wireless cameras
Post by: HA Dave on November 24, 2007, 10:29:36 PM
Quote from: birdzeye on November 24, 2007, 07:49:35 PM
Quote from: Dave_x10_L on November 23, 2007, 06:49:32 PM
If your truly worried about someone turning ON your cameras remotely don't transceive their house code. You could control them directly through PLC and use a plug-in remote to control them. You could even use AHP, and create a macro that turns on a lamp or a radio anytime a camera comes ON.

I don't understand this, Dave. How would I control my cameras directly thru PLC, and for that matter what is PLC?

Brian mentioned I could use a controller like the MiniTimer. Could someone explain how I would control my camera with the MiniTimer? Would I still need the TM751 and the camera remote CR12A that I already have purchased? ???

X10 works just as Brian H decribed:

Quote from: Brian H on November 24, 2007, 01:14:35 PM
The cameras are controlled by powerline signals.

powerline signals= PLC

Quote from: Brian H on November 24, 2007, 01:14:35 PM
If you are using a remote like the CR13A it sends an RF signal to a transceiver that converts it to a powerline signal.


Some X10 Transceivers are TM751; RR501; the RF receiver in a CM15A [this one you can set which house codes are tranceived and run triggered macros].
Some of the plug in controllers from X10 are the MiniController; Maxicontroller and the new TM12A MiniTimer.


Plug-in remotes DON'T send RF to be converted (tranceived). Plug-in remotes produce the PLC/powerline signal directly into your household wiring. It's the line-signals that "tell" your plug-in X10 devices what to do.
Title: Re: Warspying and wireless cameras
Post by: birdzeye on November 24, 2007, 10:47:48 PM
Dave and Brian,

OK I get the PLC vs RF thing.

Does the MiniTimer and other plug-in controllers come with instructions that tell you how to use them with cameras? I don't understand what I'm supposed to do. Unplug the TM751, Plug in the MiniTimer and then what? CAn I still switch between cameras with the MiniTimer?

Hey I just read in the info for the mini controller that it acts as a transceiver for rf remote controls. I thought it wasn't supposed to do that.
Title: Re: Warspying and wireless cameras
Post by: Brian H on November 25, 2007, 07:31:17 AM
My mini and maxi controllers; TR16A Touchtone responder and MT12A New version MiniTimer; have no RF receivers in them. I don't know how they could act as a transceiver.
Cameras work in groups of 4 House Code plus Unit Code. The Unit codes are 1-4;5-8;9-12 and 13-16. If you have lets say cameras on C1;C2:C3 and C4. Send a C1 On and the C2; C3 and C4 will turn Off automatically. If they span a group then you could have two on at the sametime and interference from two on cameras.
So with a tabletop controller to cycle cameras send a C1 on would turn off C2 C3 and C4. Send a C4 on and C1; C2 and C3 would go off. If you have only; maybe 2 cameras on C1 and C2. Send a C3 or C4 on and both would be off.
Yes that also means you have to watch things like motion sensors. Many send an off after a preset time and some have a Dusk Dawn feature that sends an On at the motion address plus 1. Like motion on C1 would send an C2 On at Dusk and a C2 off at Dawn.
Title: Re: Warspying and wireless cameras
Post by: KDR on November 25, 2007, 07:46:24 AM
Quote from: Brian H on November 25, 2007, 07:31:17 AM
If they span a group then you could have two on at the sametime and interference from two on cameras.

The exception to this is that if all the cameras are in the same AHP room. Regurdless of house code or unit codes.

Lets say you have 9 cameras all in the same AHP room. C1 - C4 and J5 - J8 and N9. Turning on C1 will turn off the other 8 cams. Turning on N9 will turn off the other 8 cams. The off command to the cameras will span over the groups and house codes as long as they are all in the same AHP room. I run 7 of my cams this way.

(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)----KDR
Title: Re: Warspying and wireless cameras
Post by: birdzeye on November 25, 2007, 09:38:18 AM
Quote from: Brian H on November 25, 2007, 07:31:17 AM
My mini and maxi controllers; TR16A Touchtone responder and MT12A New version MiniTimer; have no RF receivers in them. I don't know how they could act as a transceiver.

I was looking at the IR543 infrared mini-controller, which is a plug-in controller, right?. It says it " Also accepts commands from X10 format infrared remote controls and turns them into powerline signals." :-\

But I just want to get clear on one thing. If I use the MT12A, I unplug the TM751 right? And then I can switch thru cameras on the TV using the MT12A by pushing the button corresponding to the camera I want to view? Is that how it would work? And if I have a TV Tuner on my PC it would work like that as well? ???

Title: Re: Warspying and wireless cameras
Post by: Brian H on November 25, 2007, 10:32:23 AM
Thanks KDR.
Since I do not use AHP I was not aware of that feature.
Title: Re: Warspying and wireless cameras
Post by: Brian H on November 25, 2007, 10:48:54 AM
Yes the IR543 uses IR from some remotes that can send X10 in IR form. Like my UR19A 6 in 1 remote. Can be set to send X10 in RF form for a TM751;RR501 and any other module that can tranceive or IR format sent to a IR543 to be send on the powerline and send commands on 1-8 by the onboard buttons. So you could use a remote that controlls the TV and sends IR if you wanted to put the IR543 on top of the TV. If the remote can do X10 IR and the TV you have. That said you also may need a X10 Filter on the TV as it may absorb the X10 signals or make powerline noise.

Sorry I confused you saying Mini-Controller as there is also a plug in unit called that. Model number I have forgotten  :-[.

You can have more than one powerline controller connected at the sametime. You would not have to remove the TM751 if it didn't allow something you where trying to prevent.

Yes you can send powerline signals with the IR453 or any other X10 tabletop unit.

Not sure on PC control. I am sure others will chime in.
Title: Re: Warspying and wireless cameras
Post by: birdzeye on November 25, 2007, 01:12:04 PM
Quote from: KDR on November 25, 2007, 07:46:24 AM
I run 7 of my cams this way.


KDR, you have more cameras than I do and, just out of curiosity, have you ever been concerned that someone sitting in a van across the street could be intercepting your wireless transmissions? (assuming of course you have wireless cameras).

This stuff is all very new to me, and not just the warspying stuff, all the x10 products too! :o
Title: Re: Warspying and wireless cameras
Post by: KDR on November 25, 2007, 02:06:45 PM
I have 8 cams total. 7 are hardwired and 1 wireless. I went with wired cams for 2 reasons. the first is that 3 of the wired cams are nightvision non X10 cams (IR cams) and wired gives better images and the second reason was range issues. The wireless cam looks out over the drive and is also a non X10 nightvision cam. The other cams are inside buildings, a stairwell, garage and kennels. I really haven't thought much about anyone intercepting the wireless cam but i guess they could. If they wanted to look at the cam looking at the driveway they would get a better picture if they just parked by the drive.  ;D

If the cams are inside looking out it wouldn't make any difference if they could see them or not. Sound could be an issue but that could be blocked as indicated earlier in this thread. By far wired cams give you the best image and most security against outsiders.

Also someone would have to know what you have and have portable equipment to park outside and try and pick up the signal. Guess I would wonder why someone would want to do that just to do it. If they are crooks staking you out then you must have something they want. If that's the case no security would be 100%. Locks, security systems and cameras keep honest people honest and detour amateur crooks. Professional crooks can beat almost any systems. My outside cams are all highly visible and I have a professional sign in the front yard says I'm protected by a security system. There have been a few houses in the area that have been broke into, one right across the street last year. No houses with signs have had breakins yet.

I just saw an article in the local paper about a hobby shop that was robbed. They broke into a rear door and disabled the alarm system. The second thing they took out was a camera system. They took around $50,000 of collectable train sets. So much for security  ??? The police said the thieves were professionals.

All any of us can do is try and keep our own little part of the world safe and secure and share with others what seems to work for us.

(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)----KDR
Title: Re: Warspying and wireless cameras
Post by: zach1234 on December 26, 2007, 02:14:59 AM
I would not get that worried.
Title: Re: Warspying and wireless cameras
Post by: HA Dave on January 17, 2008, 10:45:47 AM
Quote from: birdzeye on November 22, 2007, 09:56:43 PM

.......I hope the putty over the microphone hole plugs the sound, Dave, I'm feeling paranoid now.


I ran across an old post on another thread here (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=6553.msg43455#msg43455)... and it got me to thinking. So I did do a little searching on WarViewing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warspying) (AKA WarSpying). I even found an instructional video (http://revision3.com/systm/warspyingbox) on making an X10 receiver into an auto-scanner.

As you can see in the video... these kids were thrilled to see themselves on a surveillance camera.... who would have guessed. The Video also gives you a idea about the range the WarViewers actually get. I still don't see where under "normal" circumstances this would be a problem. But I did think it was worth sharing the info with the forum. And.... to say THANK-YOU birdzeye for bringing it to our attention.