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🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Topic started by: Hoonose on November 28, 2007, 04:39:53 PM

Title: Remodel problems
Post by: Hoonose on November 28, 2007, 04:39:53 PM
We just did a whole house remodel and the electrician proved to be worthless!

I need to figure out how to 3 way switch several rooms, keeping the dimmers. Wirelessly, using those decora type ivory colored switches.
I need to figure out how to get back some of my wall plug control, as he left out some wiring in 2 rooms. Again wirelessly using the ivory decora switches. These would not have to be dimmable.
Lastly I have one room with 5 ceiling cans, all on one dimmer. I need those 3 wayed, and would like to separate them out 2 and 3 cans on separate switches.

Any help would be appreciated as I am not yet even a novice at this!
Title: Re: Remodel problems
Post by: Boiler on November 28, 2007, 09:48:29 PM
Quote from: Hoonose on November 28, 2007, 04:39:53 PM
We just did a whole house remodel and the electrician proved to be worthless!

1)I need to figure out how to 3 way switch several rooms, keeping the dimmers. Wirelessly, using those decora type ivory colored switches.
2)I need to figure out how to get back some of my wall plug control, as he left out some wiring in 2 rooms. Again wirelessly using the ivory decora switches. These would not have to be dimmable.
3)Lastly I have one room with 5 ceiling cans, all on one dimmer. I need those 3 wayed, and would like to separate them out 2 and 3 cans on separate switches.

Any help would be appreciated as I am not yet even a novice at this!

Hoonose,

First, welcome to the forum.

I'm struggling a bit with your use of the term "wireless".  If you are looking for a battery operated decora style wireless transmitter - I don't know of any devices.

However, items 1 and 2 could be handled if you have a "desired switch location" with access to power.  This switch location would become a transmitter (Virtual 3-way) and would not be physically connected to the circuit that it controlled. 

Item number 3 will depend on the physical wiring on your can lights. 

Let us know whether your "3-way" location has access to power and we'll go from there.

Boiler



Title: Re: Remodel problems
Post by: Hoonose on November 29, 2007, 09:22:04 AM
Thanks for the quick response.
I guess you're telling me the 3 way switch can't just be placed anywhere.
I could place the 3 way switches in spots next to other active switches, so could I grab power there?
The 5 can lights seem to be wired essentially all as one light.
Title: Re: Remodel problems
Post by: Boiler on November 29, 2007, 12:18:23 PM
Quote from: Hoonose on November 29, 2007, 09:22:04 AM
I guess you're telling me the 3 way switch can't just be placed anywhere.

Correct, Your "trasmitters" can be placed anywhere they have access to the power line (even on the other side of your house).

Quote from: Hoonose on November 29, 2007, 09:22:04 AM
I could place the 3 way switches in spots next to other active switches, so could I grab power there?

Yes, you could pull the old outlet box and stuff in a larger unit.  This can be rather messy with new drywall.  Other options include:

Quote from: Hoonose on November 29, 2007, 09:22:04 AM
The 5 can lights seem to be wired essentially all as one light.

Here's where we'll need to get into how the lights are physically wired.  If the switch input comes in a one end of the light chain and is "strung" to the other, there's not much you'll be able to do (for a reasonable expense).  If the switch input enters at the "middle" of your light chain, we have a fighting chance (second figure below).

(http://www.boiler.ucoz.com/Geocities/can_lights.JPG)

Let us know your preferences (keypad controller, expanded box, new box) and your can light wiring configuration and we'll start getting into specifics.

Boiler
Title: Re: Remodel problems
Post by: Hoonose on November 29, 2007, 08:41:10 PM
I can place the 3 way switches either beside or in combination (expand the box in some cases) with other existing wall switches, and I guess use their power. The 3 ways must be dimmable, maybe from both sides if that's possible.
I also have places for some wall switches to run some outlets, if that can be done.
I want to stick with almond decora style switches and outlets if possible.
I don't know how the cans are wired, but can't imagine it would be anything but the simplest in-line wiring based on other electrical screw-ups. Like your first can light diagram. But separating them out by the 2 and 3 seems less important compared to 3 waying them.
Title: Re: Remodel problems
Post by: Boiler on November 30, 2007, 03:13:45 PM
Quote from: Hoonose on November 29, 2007, 08:41:10 PM
I can place the 3 way switches either beside or in combination (expand the box in some cases) with other existing wall switches, and I guess use their power. The 3 ways must be dimmable, maybe from both sides if that's possible.
I also have places for some wall switches to run some outlets, if that can be done.
I want to stick with almond decora style switches and outlets if possible.
I don't know how the cans are wired, but can't imagine it would be anything but the simplest in-line wiring based on other electrical screw-ups. Like your first can light diagram. But separating them out by the 2 and 3 seems less important compared to 3 waying them.


Your last post specified "almond".  My current home has almond as well and that rules out X10 brand hardware (only available in white and ivory).

The following components are Insteon devices from Smarthome.  Insteon communication is relatively new, more robust method of networking switches.  They are also backward compatible to X10.  These are not inexpensive components. 

Remote controlled outlets - replace your existing outlet with a 2473 (new device-available 12/17) and control it with a 2476 relay switch.  The switch will not need to be physically connected to the outlet, it "transmits" ON/OFF commands across your wiring with X10 or Insteon communcation.
(http://cache.smarthome.com/images/2473sal.jpg)(http://cache.smarthome.com/images/2476sal.jpg)
                  2473 Outletlinc Link                      (http://www.smarthome.com/2473SAL.html)                              2476 Link                            (http://www.smarthome.com/2476sal.html)

3-Way Lighting (dimmable) - replace one of your existing dimmers with a 2476 Dimmer (direct connected to the load).  Add a second 2476 dimmer (transmitter) in another location to create a "virtual 3 way" circuit.  Both locations will have dimming control of your lights.

(http://cache.smarthome.com/images/2476dal.jpg)
            2476 Link         (http://www.smarthome.com/2476dal.html)

3 Way dimmable with a controller: This is actually an easier install than the above.  Replace one of your existing dimmers with the 2476 (as you did above).  Replace a second dimmer with the 2486 (it can dim a connected load).  Use the secondary buttons (smaller buttons) to control other "virtual 3way circuits (outlet, dimmable lamps etc).  Not decora, but it combines multiple functions, it's easier to install (don't have to "enlarge" switch boxes), and it may well be cheaper than multiple decora dimmers.
(http://cache.smarthome.com/images/2476dal.jpg)(http://cache.smarthome.com/images/2486d_etch.jpg)(http://cache.smarthome.com/images/2401al.jpg)
                                       2476 Link                           (http://www.smarthome.com/2476dal.html)                     2486 Link                    (http://www.smarthome.com/2486d.html)

Signal Linking: You may want to figure in a pair of SignalLincs as well.  Your house is (likely) supplied with two phases of 120V power.  Roughly half of your home will be on one phase and half on the other.  Both Insteon and X10 communication have trouble "crossing" from one phase to the other (devices on the same phase communicate but can't reach the other phase).  Insteon uses a RF link between the SignalLincs to establish communication across these phases.  Note - you may not need these if all of your devices are on the same phase.  Also, if you are planning on using the X10 compatibility mode (I have done this) the signal coupling equipment will be different.
(http://cache.smarthome.com/images/2443p.jpg)
2443 Link (http://www.smarthome.com/2443pr.html)

Given your requirements (almond, decora) I believe this is the most cost effective solution.  Leviton does make a X10 line of switches that would also work (I have both Leviton and X10).  Problem is, the Leviton X10 decora transmitters are quite expensive and they are more prone to signal problems ( X10 noise susceptibility).

Have a look, generate a shopping list ($$) and get back with any questions.

Boiler
Title: Re: Remodel problems
Post by: Hoonose on November 30, 2007, 03:41:56 PM
I will only be controlling a light or outlet in a room from a new switch installed right in or very near that same room. I won't be controlling a light from the other side of the house. And by the way, due to remodels over the last 25 years, we now have 3 electrical panels in the house.
Do I still need the phase link connecting items?

How does each new switch know which light or outlet to control? Is there some internal setting or code, or do they just come as a pre-programmed set?
Title: Re: Remodel problems
Post by: Boiler on November 30, 2007, 04:38:44 PM
Quote from: Hoonose on November 30, 2007, 03:41:56 PM
I will only be controlling a light or outlet in a room from a new switch installed right in or very near that same room. I won't be controlling a light from the other side of the house. And by the way, due to remodels over the last 25 years, we now have 3 electrical panels in the house.
Do I still need the phase link connecting items?

That depends entirely on how your wiring was implemented.  I have switch boxes that have side by side switches on opposite phases. 

Here's a link that may help : http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=13964.msg77555#msg77555.  The problem being addressed was an X10 problem, but the method for determining the phases is the same.

Quote from: Hoonose on November 30, 2007, 03:41:56 PM
How does each new switch know which light or outlet to control? Is there some internal setting or code, or do they just come as a pre-programmed set?

Insteon uses a "linking" method to program the switches to communicate with one another.  For a 3-way circuit you'll need to cross link.


It's actually easier to link the switches in Insteon mode than in X10 mode.  For X10 mode you would need a separate controller (mini controller, etc) to send the address to the switch.

Boiler
Title: Re: Remodel problems
Post by: Hoonose on November 30, 2007, 04:40:52 PM
Thanks for the help.
The wall outlets link using a similar method?
Title: Re: Remodel problems
Post by: Boiler on November 30, 2007, 04:57:24 PM
Good question (I had to look at the manual).  The answer is yes.  There is a "link" button on the front of the outlet.
Title: Re: Remodel problems
Post by: Hoonose on November 30, 2007, 05:14:49 PM
Thanks!
Now to look for the best prices on 4 sets of 3 way dimmers, 2 sets of switches with wall outlets, and probably 2 (?) phase linkers?
Title: Re: Remodel problems
Post by: Boiler on November 30, 2007, 07:56:28 PM
Quote from: Hoonose on November 30, 2007, 05:14:49 PM
Thanks!
Now to look for the best prices on 4 sets of 3 way dimmers, 2 sets of switches with wall outlets, and probably 2 (?) phase linkers?

That's a lot of hardware! I had no idea your "remodel" was that extensive.

Are you sure it wouldn't be easier to have your electrician "make things right".
Title: Re: Remodel problems
Post by: Hoonose on December 01, 2007, 12:47:49 PM
This is only a very small part of all the electrical mistakes! Some were in fact dangerous.
But I won't bore you with my list of literally dozens of electrical screw-ups!
Never again....
Title: Re: Remodel problems
Post by: steven r on December 01, 2007, 02:22:42 PM
Quote from: Hoonose on December 01, 2007, 12:47:49 PM
This is only a very small part of all the electrical mistakes! Some were in fact dangerous....
I hope you reported the electrician to the BBB (https://odr.bbb.org/odrweb/public/GetStarted.aspx)! Please save others from the same fate.
Title: Re: Remodel problems
Post by: Hoonose on December 01, 2007, 02:48:28 PM
The State Registrar's office was officially notified last week. Inspection scheduled for 12/6. My new electrician will meet with them to show them the disaster.
Something's not right (of course). But the electrician has been around for over 20 years here, has no complaints on record, and cannot be reached by anyone for months now!
Title: Re: Remodel problems
Post by: Walt2 on December 01, 2007, 04:29:36 PM
Quote from: steven r on December 01, 2007, 02:22:42 PM
I hope you reported the electrician to the BBB (https://odr.bbb.org/odrweb/public/GetStarted.aspx)! Please save others from the same fate.

Based on what?    ???

Not installing 3-ways switches, in places which might not even normally get them?
Title: Re: Remodel problems
Post by: Hoonose on December 01, 2007, 04:34:32 PM
That was the least of my electrical woes with the remodel:

Main electrical panel left opened, uncovered and unfinished, wires protruding.
Stair lights never completed.
Never installed ceiling light fixture at garage entry.
Many wall switches and plugs throughout the house left unfinished with wires hanging out.
We lost all switched plugs in both living room and family room.  Wiring never completed.
Recessed can lights in living room inoperative, never wired properly.
Wires and plates to entertainment unit unfinished.  Wires to overhead entertainment lights never installed or never found.
Wiring and switching him to art lights never completed.
Guest bathroom light unfinished.
Under cabinet wires in the guest bathroom left unfinished, exposed and hanging out.
Guest room electrical panel unfinished, uncovered and not completed.  Wires exposed.
Pool bath exhaust fan not hooked up.
Recessed can lighting in the office, unable to turn off, and porch cans lights not operative.
Hall recessed cans placed on the same circuit with wall sconces.
Same on the porches.
Office cans X5 all on the same circuit. Was supposed to be 2 + 3.
One plug left incomplete, behind a drywall in my closet, wires exposed, causing plugs in all new closets all to be inoperative and not completed.
Plugs in the master bedroom addition not completed, not operative.
Exhaust fans in master bathroom,  X3(!), nonoperative.
Outdoor wall lights and floodlights unfinished and not operative.
Outside wall plugs left open, unfinished, with wires hanging out.
Electrical cable left exposed, unfinished on the roof.
Electrical cable left exposed, unfinished in the attic for the air handler.
Ceiling heaters X2 and most all lighting in the master bathroom placed on one single circuit!
Unable to operate without popping circuit.
Jacuzzi bath not hooked up.
Left out infrared heater cans X2 in the master shower.
Ceiling  fans X2 and one ceiling can all on one switch in the master bathroom!
Hair dryer plugs inoperative unfinished, both vanities master bath.
No light in kitchen pantry.
Shed light unfinished.
Pool light never hooked up.

So there's the list!
Title: Re: Remodel problems
Post by: steven r on December 01, 2007, 05:21:04 PM
Quote from: Hoonose on December 01, 2007, 02:48:28 PM
The State Registrar's office was officially notified last week. Inspection scheduled for 12/6...
You have at least one person, me, interested in how the saga plays out. Post and let us know how the inspection goes.
Title: Re: Remodel problems
Post by: Boiler on December 01, 2007, 07:28:19 PM
Did you contract the electrical yourself or was the remodel handled through a general contractor.

General contractors carry insurance for disasters like this (presumably he selected and hired the electrician).  If you had a GC, I would expect that he would share at least part of the expense of making this right.

I've yet to take a legal route over incomplete or unsatisfactory work.  I much prefer to work things through with the individual.  Your list would make me think twice about that approach.
Title: Re: Remodel problems
Post by: Hoonose on December 01, 2007, 08:05:52 PM
I had a clueless general. He may be next....
Title: Re: Remodel problems
Post by: steven r on December 02, 2007, 12:15:29 AM
Quote from: Hoonose on December 01, 2007, 08:05:52 PM
I had a clueless general. He may be next....
I hope you didn't pay in full in advance.
I think you have a good case and I sympathize with what you're going through.
Title: Re: Remodel problems
Post by: Hoonose on December 07, 2007, 04:27:55 PM
My general contractor says he'll step up to the plate and make good all my concerns. The Registrar's inspection is now put off until after the new year to give him a chance. It may be that he didn't pay the electrician, or in a timely manner. So we'll see. Meanwhile my own electrician will continue to make the necessary repairs.
Title: Re: Remodel problems
Post by: KDR on December 07, 2007, 05:41:05 PM
With that many problems and things left undone it sounds like the electrician just walked of the job. There must be more there then meets the eye. Hope all turns out OK for you in the long run and that it doesn't mess up your holidays to bad.

(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)---(http://www.bdshost.com/X10/lpup.gif)----KDR
Title: Re: Remodel problems
Post by: Hoonose on December 07, 2007, 09:48:37 PM
Probably more than meets the eye. I just got a letter the electrician wrote to the Registrar in rebuttal, containing a few gross lies. He says he never pulled a permit and worked time and materials. He says that he never talked to me or my wife about anything. And I'm guessing the general didn't pay him for the whole job. But wouldn't the general have to have the permit?
Anyway, daily we get closer to closure.
Mostly the outside electric to be done. But no big deal since the new landscaping and other yard goodies aren't done either.
I think we found an active outlet in the living room for a tree! But not switched, of course
Title: Re: Remodel problems
Post by: Hoonose on January 29, 2008, 10:49:22 PM
So far I've spent about $10K with an electrician friend going after all my electrical problems one by one. Most are fixed. I went with the Insteon 3 way dimmers in the kitchen and master bedroom as recommended, otherwise the fixes were all conventional. I still lack switched outlets in the living room and family room, but that's a very minimal problem, and I don't think it's worth pursuing. So far the general has pitched in $4K, but we're not done.

Anyway I'm stuck without outside flood lights on both sides of the house. I would like to be able to have and run them both from both sides of the house, kitchen and master bedroom.  On the kitchen side there is the old outdoor dual flood fixture out there. The master side has 3 wall mounted lights, but no floods. The wall mounted lights I would like to run as a group, preferably from both sides of the house, as I already have 2 matching wall mounted lights out there midway on the back porch, that can be run from the kitchen and master. Only the middle wall mounted light of the 3 on the master side works, and is switched from the master bath doorway. It would be OK to 3 or 4 way from there.

So I need to remotely control 2 sets of floods from both kitchen and master bedroom.
And run the 3 other wall mounted lights on the master side in unison with the 2 already out there on the back porch, preferably controlled from both the kitchen and master.

Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated!