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🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Topic started by: Oldtimer on December 23, 2007, 09:16:57 PM

Title: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: Oldtimer on December 23, 2007, 09:16:57 PM
CONVERTING AN EXISTING X10 SYSTEM TO WORK WITH CFLs

Like a lot of us on this site I have been gradually expanding my X10 system in this particular house for over 16 years and because of that I have a significant investment in installed modules and related equipment.  As much as I wanted to convert to CFLs I didn't want to incur the expense of replacing a bunch of modules to do it.

Initially I tried a number of different brands of CFLs in non X10 sockets to get a feel for them.  The earliest ones, circa 2006, had line noise that interfered with X10, were slow to start and were odd colors.  To get a feel for what would have been be involved in this kind of conversion as recently as early 2007 see this excellent tutorial by JeffVolp (http://jvde.us/x10/x10_cfls.htm).  I'd suggest adding it to your favorites in case you happen to run into any problems of the kind he's already solved.  Steve Ciarcia (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=13140.msg73165#msg73165) also has some interesting comments on using CFLs and LEDs with X10.

Eventually I settled on NVision (http://www.nvisioncfl.com/products.aspx) from Home Depot partially based on personal experience and partially based on information posted here.  I was pleased to see they also came out on top in the recent Popular Mechanics ratings (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=4716.msg75326#msg75326). From my perspective their main features are instant on, excellent color, no line noise & high WAF. Whatever CFL you use try it before proceeding.  Because the technology is changing rapidly they might work without switch or module modification, but beware, sometimes they work with local control but will produce enough line noise to block the remote control X10 signal. so you still have to do one of the mods listed here.  If you find any that work without module modification please post a note in this thread so we all know about them.

Using the techniques described here I've converted all the high usage, X10 controlled lights in the house to CFLs.  There are a few low wattage X10 controlled lights that won't be converted because there are no equivalent CFL bulbs and six low usage X10 controlled outdoor flood lights that also won't be converted because there's not enough cost benefit to bother. You can see the results on the savings analysis page (http://www.sfpasc.com/x10/CFL-Location-Analysis.pdf) and on my X10 system diagram (http://www.sfpasc.com/x10/OldTimersX10SystemDiagram.pdf). The diagram is a PDF file so enlarge the view or print it in normal landscape mode for the clearest image. By the way, I need advice on what I should do with all the leftover incandescent bulbs?

The following links describe what I've done so far to install CFLs in my existing X10 system.

   SWITCH REPLACEMENT: (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=14210.msg78891#msg78891)
   
   MODULE REPLACEMENT: (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=14210.msg78892#msg78892)
   
   LAMP MODIFICATION: (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=14210.msg78893#msg78893)
   
   SWITCH MODIFICATION: (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=14210.msg78894#msg78894)

   EPILOGUE (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=14210.msg81833#msg81833)
   
   ERRATA: (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=14210.msg78947#msg78947)

In addition to reading what I've written you should also do a general search on the Forum for "CFL".  There is a ton of useful information here.

WORDS OF CAUTION!
 * In some cases I'm using dimming modules and modified dimming wall switches with non-dimming CFLs which many posters on the Forum don't recommend. We haven't had any trouble (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=14210.msg79271#msg79271) from this as yet but you should decide for yourself whether or not you want to go this route.
 * Please understand that if you decide to do any of these modifications yourself you will be doing so at your own risk.  I'm simply sharing information about what worked for me but that in no way guarantees that it will work the same way for you.
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: Oldtimer on December 23, 2007, 09:18:37 PM
SWITCH REPLACEMENT:

I’ll admit up front that I did replace two WS467 switches and one WS477 3 way switch and learned a lot in the process.  The WS477 was wired to one of the jacks in each of several duplex outlets in our living room. One of these had a two bulb table lamp plugged into it.  That WS477 had to be replaced with an XPS3 anyway because it is against code to have a dimmer switch wired to an outlet.  In addition it had always worried me that someone might plug in a vacuum cleaner or iron and blow up the WS477 or worse yet start a fire.  The 20 amp rating on the XPS3 solved both these problems but created two new ones because the existing companion switch was a CS227 which X10 says shouldn’t be used with the XPS3. What’s more the switch knob was a large Decora one rather than a small traditional one. 

By the way the relative locations of the main and companion switch also had to be swapped because the XPS3 has to be at the power feed end of a 3 way circuit whereas a WS477 doesn’t.

Since the XPS3 was now in the same 2 gang switch plate as a WS467 that controlled a front porch and a post light, that WS467 had to be converted to an XPS3 to keep the WAF up.

Since the CS227 was now in a 4 gang traditional switch plate that I didn’t want to convert to an XPSS Decora companion switch some more special wiring was required.  When I converted my attic fan controls (http://www.sfpasc.com/x10/OldtimersAtticFanWiring.pdf) to X10 I’d already discovered that the secret to using a CS227 with an XPS3 was not to carry the power feed through the two black wires connected to the CS227 but to simply wire the CS227 as a floating push button, so this was no problem.

The second WS467 controlled the back porch light but was installed in a traditional 3 gang switch plate so I had the same Decora button problem again since I didn’t want to modify the WS467 on this particular circuit.  One of the other switches in the plate was non X10 so that was a $3 swap but the other was a CS227 companion switch that I didn’t want to replace with an XPSS at $10 including shipping on Ebay.  I simply took a regular $3 Leviton Decora apart and modified it (http://www.sfpasc.com/x10/LevitonSwitchSideView.pdf) for momentary action to replace the CS227.  After I’d already done this I found another post (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=13335.msg74369#msg74369) on the forum referring to this same modification but in a different context.

Although I didn't have the problem myself, some built in fixtures, even in new houses, do not have a neutral in the switch box that controls them making it seemingly impossible to use an XPS3 or WS13A.  The solution to this situation (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=14521.msg80868#msg80868) has been provided in another thread by Waynemor.

Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: Oldtimer on December 23, 2007, 09:22:11 PM
MODULE REPLACEMENT:

For years the table lamp on the book case next to my desk has been controlled by a lamp module that also had a small florescent light, with its own switch, plugged into it.  This light is needed to inspect special print jobs as they came out of the printer but isn't used very often.  As you might expect, if it was ON the lamp module couldn't turn it and the table lamp OFF but if it was OFF it could turn both of them ON.  So I changed this to an appliance module but when the appliance module was OFF the CFL blinked slowly, as they usually do because of the local control sensing current. I use 1/2 watt 22k ohm resistors (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=9281.msg57138#msg57138) (red, red, orange) across the load to solve this problem.  If you don't need local control from the switch on the lamp they can go anywhere after the module.  In this case I put the resistor by itself inside an AC plug and plugged that into the cube tap that was already on the module.  It works fine.
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: Oldtimer on December 23, 2007, 09:23:26 PM
LAMP MODIFICATION:

Lamps plugged into lamp and appliance modules work with CFLs except they usually blink ON briefly but slowly when the module is OFF because of the local control sensing current. Again the solution is a 1/2 watt 22k ohm resistor (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=9281.msg57138#msg57138) (red, red, orange) across the load. The resistor doesn't work on unmodified WS467s because they're not connected to neutral as the modules are and isn't needed on modified WS467s. By the way a night light (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=12385.msg45311#msg45311) or, as I have also found, leaving one matching incandescent (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=13095.msg72887#msg72887), installed along with CFLs also works but isn't very elegant or energy efficient.

If you don't care about local control by the lamp switch you can put the resistor inside the plug on the lamp cord (http://www.sfpasc.com/x10/ResistorInACPlug.pdf).  I use large plugs for under $3 from Home Depot.

If you want local control by the module to still work the resistor has to go inside the socket (http://www.sfpasc.com/x10/ResistorsInSockets.pdf) after the lamp switch.
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: Oldtimer on December 23, 2007, 09:24:57 PM
SWITCH MODIFICATION:

NOTE:  All my WS467s and WS477s are older production.  Apparently the latest production has some different components inside which I have no experience with.  You can tell them from older production because they have local diming capability. Hopefully others will be able to post their results modifying these newer wall switches.

There are instructions on this web site (http://www.idobartana.com/hakb/) under "adding a neutral wire" for converting WS467s  (and similar switches) to work with CFLs. The main problem is that these instructions are very sparse (http://www.sfpasc.com/x10/AddNeutralWireToSwitch.pdf). They also apply to WS4777s, you'll just have one more wire to deal with. This is not a job for wimps but once you've done one it becomes very straight forward.  Here are some additional pointers based on my experience.

What helped me the most was having a burned out WS467 to practice on before I tackled a live one.  Most important I learned how to quickly and easily get the unit out of and back into its case and also how to do the whole job without removing the printed circuit board, which means you don't have to deal with a bunch of small parts flying around (http://www.sfpasc.com/x10/ReassemblingSwitch.pdf). I also built a fixture to test the modified switches (http://www.sfpasc.com/x10/TestJig.pdf) before installing them.

The case is held together at each corner by a molded plastic catch.  With your finger nail pulling in the crack between the two halves you press down on each catch in turn with a small screwdriver until it releases that part of the cover. A 15 second job once you get the hang of it.

The next challenge is freeing the back cover from the wires since they are looped through a retainer inside the back of the cover and then out through a slot.  After the cover is loose you need to gently poke the wires into the slot until you can reach them individually with needle nose pliers and pull them the rest of the way.  Once you've done that you can slip them out of the retainer, freeing the cover and exposing the printed circuit board.

Next find the following: The 330k resistor (orange, orange, yellow) that is sticking straight up from the PCB next to the heat sink; the longer lead from the choke coil to the circuit board (not the one that goes toward the heat sink); and the blue lead.

Cut the long lead from the choke to the printed circuit board about ½" above the board. Pull off the insulating plastic, cut it in half then put a piece back on the lead. Finally scrape1/4" of the varnish you can't see, off of the end of the lead and put a tiny "U" hook in the end. Tin the end with solder.

Cut the rest of the long lead about ½" from the choke. Pull off the insulating plastic, cut it in half then put a piece back on the lead. Scrape 1/4" of the varnish you can't see, off the end of this also. Tin the end with solder.

Cut the blue lead about 3/8"  beyond the end of the heat shrink then strip off 1/4" of the insulation and tin the wire.  Strip 1/4" off the end of the piece of blue wire you just cut and tin that also.

Cut a piece of white stranded wire a little longer than the blue wire you just cut.  Strip and tin one end ½" and the other 1/4".  Solder the 1/4" end to the stub end of the blue wire that is still attached to the PCB.  This will be a parallel not a twisted connection.

Solder the 1/4" end of the blue wire to the end of the wire from the choke. This will also be a parallel not a twisted connection.

Put just enough heat shrink tubing on both the new white and blue connections to cover them.

Clip the lead from the PCB to the top of the 330K ohm resistor at the top of the resistor.  Put a tiny "U" hook in the end. Leave the old resistor where it is.

For the next step you'll need a new 330k resistor. Although the original looks like a 1 watt, a 1/4 or 1/10 watt will do fine. You can't get it at Radio Shack so pick up 5 packs of 220k and 100k resistors and use them in series.  They'll function just as well.  You just have to work carefully with very short leads. A 25 watt iron is best for all this soldering by the way.

Crimp one end of your new "330k" resistor into the "U" on the end of the old 330k resistor lead from the PCB and solder it.   Crimp the other end of the new resistor into the "U"on the end of old choke lead stub from the PCB and solder it.  Trim off the excess lead length and make sure this floating resistor assembly isn't touching any other components. Use a magnifying glass if necessary to be sure.  The old leads from the PCB should be coming straight up to the resistor leads. The resistor and its leads should be horizontal.  When the resistors are soldered together and to the two stub leads from the PCB the whole assembly is very stiff so it easily stays in place floating above the components on the PCB. Here's a picture of the modified unit before the cover is put back on. (http://www.sfpasc.com/x10/ModifiedWS467.pdf)

Thread the blue, black and white wires out the slot in the cover, bypassing the old retainer, and  snap the cover back into place. Be careful not to jam anything inside the switch in the process

Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: Agent99 on December 23, 2007, 11:17:53 PM
Oldtimer,

I am sure that many will find your post most informative and well thought out.

However I see this whole issue as something that will have to be addressed by X-10 in future products or by the light bulb industry to be properly resolved. I would be very cautious in advising anyone to make these modifications because of the problem of liability. I do not believe that any of this would meet local electrical codes and if god forbid something went wrong and it caused an electrical fire and an insurance adjuster determined that  it was caused by an unapproved or modified module or switch they just might have a real problem on there hands. 
CF L's are going to be the standard in 2012 in the USA and we will no longer be able to buy incandescent bulbs unless they somehow make them meet energy requirements. I believe that dim able CF L's will become more mainstream and compatible with X-10. I also believe that X-10 modules and switches will have to be made fully CFL compatible or X-10 will not survive. Perhaps X-10 has already outlived its usefully life and another better low cost technology will take over if its not already happening.
I love X-10 for its extensive lineup of products even though it is an aging technology it still works for many. I personally use X-10 because its cheap and would probably never have gotten into Home Automation if not for its low cost. Its a hobby to me and I kinda like tinkering and finding solutions. I believe the average Joe Consumer just wants a plug and play solution though.
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: Tuicemen on December 24, 2007, 09:58:13 AM
Oldtimer:
As always, Very Informative Posts! ;)
Thanks for sharing!
Cheers & Happy Holidays!
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: Oldtimer on December 24, 2007, 02:06:39 PM
ERRATA

I've added an Errata page to this thread since I suspect there will be a lot of additions and changes as some of the regulars chime in and other readers ask for clarifications.  This way you'll know right away if there's anything new you should check out.

Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: Oldtimer on December 31, 2007, 09:59:41 PM
WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU DIM A REGULAR CFL WITH A MODIFIED DIMMING X10 SWITCH?

In my tests I found that nothing bad seemed to happen!  Over most of the dimming range the regular CFL stayed just as bright, then it dimmed a little, then it flickered and finally went out.  I think it would be immediately apparent to anyone who tried to dim a CFL that it wasn't working and hopefully they'd turn it off or ramp it back up to full brightness.

My tests weren't prolonged because I didn't detect any heat build up in the modified switch let alone what you'd normally feel when dimming a regular incandecant bulb.

I used a modified WS467 for this test.  Because it has a neutral connection the same as a modified WS467 I suspect a lamp module will give the same results.  I didn't try one because the heat sink isn't as accessible.

Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: Brian H on January 01, 2008, 06:25:57 AM
A dimmable CFL may have dimmed to maybe 20%-30% then flicker and go out. I have only tested with a Lamp Module [Insteon and X10 brands] and that is what I found.
Thanks again for this great set of informative tutorials.
NOTE: My dimmable was a ULA SDS23 bulb and I found it made enough power line noise to kill weak X10 signals.
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: Oldtimer on February 28, 2008, 09:14:52 PM
EPILOGUE

I added this section to the tutorial to document the aftermath of converting an entire house to CFLs. It was added two months after the job was completed (?) and will be updated as things evolve, along with the rest of the thread. Note that, in some cases, I'm documenting problems that haven't been solved yet, so if you have any suggestions please post them.

CFL/FLUORESCENT INTERACTION: The upstairs bathroom has four 40 W equivalent CFLs in a strip at the top of the wide medicine cabinet mirror doors.  As noted elsewhere they are too bright when full on for everyday use so we have a switch in the fixture to turn off the middle two when we don't need them.  These are controlled by a modified WS467.  There is also a fluorescent light under the bottom edge of the medicine cabinet that bounces light off of the white counter top so you can see under your chin when shaving, etc.  This is controlled by its own manual switch before the WS467 on the same circuit. Most of the time, if you turn on the fluorescent light after you turn on either two or four of the CFLs, the blinking of the fluorescent, during its turn on process, will turn OFF the CFLs!  We're living with this for now, while I try to figure out a cure.
7/26/08: We've discovered that this interaction only occurs when the CFLs are "cold".  If they've been on for more than a couple of minutes the fluorescent doesn't turn them off when it powers up.

UNEXPECTED BENEFIT OF SLOW CFL BRIGHTENING: The spirals in the above CFLs are inside decorative globes and are MUCH slower then current NVision production to reach full intensity. The slow brightening turns out to be an advantage at night since they give your eyes a chance to adapt to the light if you turn them on when you've been asleep and were guided into the bathroom by only the glow of a night light.  As nice as this is for now, I may have a problem if I have to replace one or more of them per the next note.

SUSPECTED OLDER TECHNOLOGY IN ENCASED CFLS: One thing I've noticed is that the simple twisty NVision CFLs from Home Depot turn on immediately.  But, the encased bulbs such as we use in our bathroom and floodlights are extremely slow to turn on.  I'm concerned that the technology in the innards of these bulbs is much older production that doesn't move as fast off the shelf.  I may try to do a little more research on this. I'm also afraid that if I have to replace one of them it will turn on much faster than the other three!

TELEPHONE/CFL INTERACTION: Some CFLs seem to radiate noise that is picked up on the phone lines. In our house the problem comes from only about 5 of the total of 49 bulbs currently installed.   Click here to see what I had to do to correct this problem. (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=14667.msg81703#msg81703) Note that some of this remediation had to be done anyway, not just for CFLs.

POWERMID/CFL INTERACTION: The two CFLs in ceiling fixtures over the hearth of our fireplace interferes with our PowerMid (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=12120.msg68704#msg68704) that controls the upstairs Tivo.  We only turn on the power to this when we use it but if these CFLs are ON, the PowerMid transmitter LED blinks continuously as if an IR remote control were aimed at it.  Regular X10 filters don't fix the problem. Again, we're living with this for now while I look for a cure.

THE BRANCH CIRCUIT FROM HADES: One branch circuit from our breaker panel handles two outside lights controlled by X10, a two bulb lamp plugged into a switched outlet controlled by X10, two light fixtures over our fireplace controlled by X10 (see above), a Christmas tree, in season, controlled by X10, a Tivo box, an LCD TV set and a PowerMid (see above).  My research over the years has shown that the wiring on this branch, while up to code, is a rats nest.  Long before the 6 bulbs were converted to CFLs the reliability of the X10 modules on this branch was iffy.  After the module replacements and conversions described elsewhere in this thread the reliability was still iffy.  I already had X10 filters on the TV and the Tivo and after the conversion added them to the lamp and fireplace fixtures which helped quite a bit, but not enough.  So, I bit the bullet and installed an XTB signal booster (http://jvde.us/xtb/xtb_description.htm) from Jeff Volp.  This branch as well as the whole system is now rock stable. It would appear that even CFLs that play well with X10 can also be signal suckers if there are enough of them on a given branch.

ONE YEAR LATER: As of today, 12/13/08, all the modifications described in the thread, except for the ones in this post,  have been in use for several months more than one year.  Although several forum members have posted cautionary notes about resistor values, and such things I am pleased to report that everything is still working as installed with no problems.  However, as a firm believer in belt and suspender safety,  I'd consider using the theoretically safer component values if I were to do these modifications again even though I've not had anything go wrong so far.
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: JMac on February 28, 2008, 09:34:04 PM
I also use the nvision spirals and don't have any problem with them, but I also noticed (as you did) a flash on the PowerMid every time I turn on a nearby bed lamp.  It doesn't appear to interfere with anything, but it's there.  Thanks for the good write-up.
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: JeffVolp on February 29, 2008, 11:31:18 AM
While somewhat off topic, some of the newer high efficiency standard fluorescent lights can also cause problems for X10.  These are the ones with electronic ballasts rather than the big old magnetic ones.  I had a recent report that said a standard fluorescent light started to cause a problem after working fine for several years.  From what I saw with that Cellet cellphone charger, noise generated by these switching suppiles can vary greatly depending on load and line voltage.  The solutions for standard fluorescents with electronic ballasts are similar to what must be done to deal with problem CFLs.

Jeff
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: dchirsch on March 13, 2008, 10:06:38 PM
I have an outside light that has worked fine for years on the WS467.  I'd like to use a CFL in it, but am having the following problem (for which I think there is no solution...I'm hoping somebody can prove me wrong!)

First of all, there is no neutral in the box.  What's worse, since this circuit also has an outside outlet and a bathroom outlet on it, it is protected by a GFCI at the panel...so I can't even cheat and use a modified WS467 connecting the neutral to ground.  Anybody have any ideas, short of trying to run a neutral (nearly impossible) or just giving up and going back to an incandescent bulb?

Thanks for any thoughts.

-D
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: Oldtimer on March 14, 2008, 09:00:16 AM
Quote from: dchirsch on March 13, 2008, 10:06:38 PM
I have an outside light that has worked fine for years on the WS467.  I'd like to use a CFL in it, but am having the following problem (for which I think there is no solution...I'm hoping somebody can prove me wrong!)

First of all, there is no neutral in the box.  What's worse, since this circuit also has an outside outlet and a bathroom outlet on it, it is protected by a GFCI at the panel...so I can't even cheat and use a modified WS467 connecting the neutral to ground.  Anybody have any ideas, short of trying to run a neutral (nearly impossible) or just giving up and going back to an incandescent bulb?

Thanks for any thoughts.

-D

There is a link in this thread at the end of the SWITCH REPLACEMENT post, above, to one solution to this problem.  Click here to go directly to the link:

http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=14521.msg80868#msg80868

You'll have to change the module but it should meet all the conditions you describe.
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: dave w on March 14, 2008, 12:16:05 PM
Quote from: dchirsch on March 13, 2008, 10:06:38 PM
  Anybody have any ideas, short of trying to run a neutral (nearly impossible) or just giving up and going back to an incandescent bulb?

Thanks for any thoughts.

-D
FWIW
I have "Coach Lanterns" on either side of garage door which I wanted to put CFLs in to keep lit all night.

I ended up installing a second wall box immediately below one of the coach lights and installed a spotlight fixture wired in parallel with the coach light. In this new fixture I have one of the 7 Watt "ping pong ball" standard base bulbs. This "ballast bulb" keeps the WS467 switch happy.

From there it is a matter of disguising the "ping pong ball" fixture. I ended up fabricating a small opaque focusing shade over the bulb, which added some light on the walkway. More creative thoughts were to make a sign with the house numbers, or first letter of our last name, etc to mount over the fixture so would have soft silhouette lighting from the back.
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: steven r on March 14, 2008, 02:11:28 PM
Quote from: dave w on March 14, 2008, 12:16:05 PM
...In this new fixture I have one of the 7 Watt "ping pong ball" standard base bulbs. This "ballast bulb" keeps the WS467 switch happy.

From there it is a matter of disguising the "ping pong ball" fixture. I ended up fabricating a small opaque focusing shade over the bulb, which added some light on the walkway....
I've wondered if a plug in air freshener, heat or fan type, would serve as a "ballast" to keep a WS467 switch happy when used with LEDs or CFLs. There wouldn't be a need to hide a light if it did.
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: Voyager62 on August 26, 2008, 06:21:44 PM
HELP!!!  :(

I had shorted out two of my old circa 2005 WS477 wall switches and had to buy 2 more new ones from X10.com.

Well, the new ones are completely different from the old ones.  Instead of shorting that capacitor to enable local dimming, they have a new daughter board.  The switch also remembers the previous light level, which is a pain because at first I thought something was broken when the bulbs wouldn't brighten back up after turning the switch off and back on.

Does anyone know how to convert these switches for use with CFLs?  Besides the daughter board, the main chip is rotated 90 degrees and there is a different resistor where the 330 Ohm resistor was.  The colors are Brown, Black, Orange, and Silver for the tolerance.

Your instructilons were on the mark.  I had blown out one swith using the instructions at the other website and was able to ressurect one of the old switches by replacing the Triac, but I still need to modify 2 of the new WS477s.
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: dave w on August 26, 2008, 08:49:01 PM
Quote from: Voyager62 on August 26, 2008, 06:21:44 PM
HELP!!!  :(

Does anyone know how to convert these switches for use with CFLs?   but I still need to modify 2 of the new WS477s.
Other than adding a neutral wire, the WS477 ITSELF can not be modified for CFLs. It needs operating current normally (parasitically) drawn through the incandescent bulb in the OFF state. A CFL will not deliver this current.
Either you include an incandescent bulb as a load along with the CFL(s) (like using one incandescent bulb and three CFLs in a fan, or a chandelier), or some have put a resistor across the socket of the CFL to pass enough parasitic power to keep the WS477 operational. I think the resistor method is a bit dicey but several folks on the forum has had no problem. I just don't like putting a resistor across 120V in an electrical box. You will need to search the forum for the resistor value I think it was around 22K but not sure.
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: Voyager62 on August 26, 2008, 10:13:58 PM
Quote
Other than adding a neutral wire, the WS477 ITSELF can not be modified for CFLs.

I was able to modify the old WS477 by adding a neutral wire, but before I found Oldtimer's instructions I had blown out 2 of the Triacs and fried a resistor or something else in the third.  I completely ruined 2 switches, but was able to resurrect the third by switching triacs.

Quote
There are instructions on this web site under "adding a neutral wire" for converting WS467s  (and similar switches) to work with CFLs. The main problem is that these instructions are very sparse. They also apply to WS4777s, you'll just have one more wire to deal with. This is not a job for wimps but once you've done one it becomes very straight forward.  Here are some additional pointers based on my experience.

What I need to know is what modifications are needed to do the same with the new switch as you could with the old switch.

From Oldtimer:
Quote
NOTE:  All my WS467s and WS477s are older production.  Apparently the latest production has some different components inside which I have no experience with.  You can tell them from older production because they have local dimming capability. Hopefully others will be able to post their results modifying these newer wall switches.

I need someone that knows how to modify the new switch.
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: Oldtimer on August 27, 2008, 03:11:09 PM
Quote from: dave w on August 26, 2008, 08:49:01 PM
I think the resistor method is a bit dicey but several folks on the forum has had no problem. I just don't like putting a resistor across 120V in an electrical box. You will need to search the forum for the resistor value I think it was around 22K but not sure.

DAVE W: Just go to the first post in this thread and follow the links there under MODULE REPLACEMENT and LAMP MODIFICATION.  The whole resistor story is there in those and susequent links.
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: steven r on August 27, 2008, 03:23:42 PM
Skimming the half dozen items that came up on a search for "22K", I was reminded of the importance of having the right wattage also. It should be a least 1/2 watt or 1 watt if you want to be sure. Also use good wiring practice and heat shrink any exposed resistor leads.
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: dave w on August 27, 2008, 05:07:48 PM
Quote from: Oldtimer on August 27, 2008, 03:11:09 PM

DAVE W: Just go to the first post in this thread and follow the links there under MODULE REPLACEMENT and LAMP MODIFICATION.  The whole resistor story is there in those and susequent links.

Well like I said, I really am not interested in putting a resistor in a bulb socket or electrical box. But glad steven r pointed out the wattage. 
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: Oldtimer on December 13, 2008, 08:13:52 PM
As of the date of this post I have made a change to the ERRATA page for this thread.

Click here to see it. (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=14210.msg78947#msg78947)

Do not link to this page.  It will be deleted and reposted each time a change is made to the ERRATA page.

Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: ravis1 on January 01, 2009, 10:07:47 PM
In his excellent posting, Oldtimer has mentioned that in future he would prefer to use theoretically safe values. That line motivated me to do some calculations and I hope someone can validate my calculations. My calculations suggest that 22K ohm resistor with one watt rating should be a safer alternative. Here are my calculations:

Voltage/Resistance = Amps
120 volt/22000 = 0.00545 ampere

Voltage * Amps = Watts
120 volt * 0.00545 ampere = 0.6545 watt ~ 1 watt rating resistor

Please note that if you do this same calculation with 110 volt rating the answer in wattage will be 0.55 watt. Since the tolerance of resistors is about +/- 10%, a 0.5 watt resistor could range between 0.45 watt and 0.55 watt. Therefore, a 22K ohm and 1/2 watt resistor is very close to the theoretical limit and I believe 22K ohm 1 watt resistor with 10% tolerance would be in the safe zone.

Next we can calculate annual cost of electricity used by this resistor.

Generally, the cost of electricity is about $0.067 per Kilowatt-hour or kwh.

(Watt * hours in a day * days in a year)/1000 * Price per kwh = Annual cost of electricity used
(0.6545 watt * 24 hours * 365 days)/1000 * $0.067 = $0.38

So you will be spending about 38 cents a year of electricity for using a 22K ohm resistor across the CFL load. I guess it is a small price to pay for home automation and energy saving!

Thank you all for maintaining this nice thread!

Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: steven r on November 04, 2009, 10:34:32 AM
Quote from: ravis1 on January 01, 2009, 10:07:47 PM
...That line motivated me to do some calculations and I hope someone can validate my calculations. My calculations suggest that 22K ohm resistor with one watt rating should be a safer alternative...
Interesting that I would get an email notice today of a post to this topic. ???  *
Anyway while bumping an old topic, thanks are in order to ravis1 for reminding us of ohm's law. As a result, I'll stick with 1 watt should I need to do such a mod.

*Mystery solved. A spam posting, now moved for review of the post and poster, prompted my forum topic email. Thanks again to everyone out there keeping this board free of spam.
i.e. Do to the work of a few unpaid volunteers, most spam is caught within a few hours and sometimes just minutes of being posted and violators are promptly banded from the board. Everyone, including X10, should be grateful for the work of these volunteers.
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: dave w on November 04, 2009, 11:32:28 AM
Quote from: steven r on November 04, 2009, 10:34:32 AM
Do to the work of a few unpaid volunteers, most spam is caught within a few hours and sometimes just minutes of being posted and violators are promptly banded from the board. Everyone, including X10, should be grateful for the work of these volunteers.
:)%
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: amunoztico on May 03, 2010, 05:44:00 PM

Can someone post again all the links about how avoid CFLs blinking? ("1/2 watt 22k ohm resistor")

any new solution?

Regards!
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: Dan Lawrence on May 03, 2010, 08:06:59 PM
What I use to stop CFLs from blinking is a cube tap and a 4 watt night light plugged into the appliance module used to control the fixture.  When the fixture (and the CFL) is off, the night light kills the trickle current so no blink.   
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: NickJ on January 23, 2011, 03:45:53 PM
Thanks for maintaining this great post.

I had the same problem converting to CFL's but was afraid of the mods.  I recently discovered Purespectrum dimmable CFL's and they work great.  I have not experienced any interference with X10 signals (but I do use a coupler/booster) and I haven't seen any flashing from the X10 current pulses that test to see if a user is switching so they can turn on.  Everything works!

And they have great color ( a warm 2700 K) and come on instantly.  I don't often dim many of these lamps but I got 30 for $81 on Amazon (maybe $95 with shipping) and feel they are well worth the little extra cost.  In fact the 16 incandescents I have already replaced will save their cost in one month!  You cant beat a one month payback.  Those 16 run about 15 hours per day.

The bulbs are longer than incandescents so they won't fit some lamps.  I just ordered 5 lamp harps slightly larger than installed which should allow me to convert 5 more.  If you decide to do that a lamp harp should be no more than 1/2" longer than the shade height. I may still have to remove and reinstall the harp every time I change a bulb that's not often. For the four odd ball lamps that don't have lamp harps (horizontal bulbs) I plan to use socket rockets but in a different way:  I will use a L125-W Leviton Light Socket to Outlet Plug adapter, a L61-I-EA Leviton Plug-In Light Socket Outlet Adapter Plug and a L65 Leviton Plug-In Right Angle Triple Tap Outlet Adapter and insert the socket rocket in the L125 W and plug the lamp cord into the L61 installed in the socket rocket so the socket rocket will be down at the outlet and not in the lamp socket. The socket rocket can handle CFL's (from other posts) and doesn't have the auto on switching feature so there should be no blinking.  I lose that auto on ability on those lamps but if I leave those socket rockets ON anyone can turn the lamps on and off as desired and I can turn the socket rocket off to make sure they are off at night.  I will probably use the recommended NVision CFL's in those lamps assuming they make small bulbs that will fit.

I still have a few wall switches I'd like to convert but haven't been able to find a relay wall switch that does NOT respond to the "all -lights-on" command.  Can  anyone suggest a solution?  The only thing I can think of is to use an appliance module to power the wall switches but that will require some odd ball rewiring that might not meet code.
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: jayman13 on January 23, 2011, 04:14:18 PM
Are you using these purespectrum bulbs with switches, say like the WS467 and they work ok?  Also, what wattage you using?
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: dave w on January 23, 2011, 04:27:08 PM
Quote from: NickJ on January 23, 2011, 03:45:53 PM
The socket rocket can handle CFL's (from other posts) and doesn't have the auto on switching feature so there should be no blinking.   but if I leave those socket rockets ON anyone can turn the lamps on and off as desired and I can turn the socket rocket off to make sure they are off at night. 
No,  unfortunately that is not correct. If the light the Socket Rocket is controlling is switched off, the Socket Rocket will "default" to OFF.
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: Brian H on January 23, 2011, 04:34:30 PM
I doubt any CFL dimmable or not. Will work with a WS467. As it steals power through the load.
I tried a few brand dimmable CFLs with a WS12A and it did not work. The WS467 is very similar.

Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: jayman13 on January 23, 2011, 04:40:40 PM
What about with WS4777 or is it same difference...
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: dave w on January 23, 2011, 04:42:27 PM
Quote from: jayman13 on January 23, 2011, 04:14:18 PM
Are you using these purespectrum bulbs with switches, say like the WS467 and they work ok?  Also, what wattage you using?
I am not using Pure Spectrum, but as a rule CFLs will not work with any X10 two wire switches (WS467, WS12) because the internal switch electronics is designed to draw parasitic power through the filament of the incandescent bulb. A CFL in the circuit will not provide this power.

I have CFLs working off the two wire WS467 but I have a incandescent 7 Watt bulbs in the circuits which provides enough power to the switch electronics to keep them working. These are old WS467 switches which can not be dimmed locally, and I have them identified as Socket Rockets in my home control software to avoid accidental dimming, which the CFLs would not like (they are not dimmable CFLs).

Sorry for stepping on you Brian, but I posted before seeing your response.

And to Jayman, yeah, the WS4777 is the same. It is just the 3-Way version of the WS467. The secret is a switch that requires a neutral wire. Those switches do not draw power through the bulb filament.

Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: jayman13 on January 23, 2011, 04:45:57 PM
Quote from: dave w on January 23, 2011, 04:42:27 PM
Quote from: jayman13 on January 23, 2011, 04:14:18 PM
Are you using these purespectrum bulbs with switches, say like the WS467 and they work ok?  Also, what wattage you using?
I am not using Pure Spectrum, but as a rule CFLs will not work with any X10 two wire switches (WS467, WS12) because the internal switch electronics is designed to draw parasitic power through the filament of the incandescent bulb. A CFL in the circuit will not provide this power.

I have CFLs working off the two wire WS467 but I have a incandescent 7 Watt bulbs in the circuits which provides enough power to the switch electronics to keep them working. These are old WS467 switches which can not be dimmed locally, and I have them identified as Socket Rockets in my home control software to avoid accidental dimming, which the CFLs would not like (they are not dimmable CFLs).

Sorry for stepping on you Brian, but I posted before seeing your response.

And to Jayman, yeah, the WS4777 is the same. It is just the 3-Way version of the WS467. The secret is a switch that requires a neutral wire. Those switches do not draw power through the bulb filament.



By insinuation are you saying that 3 or 4 wire switches may work ok as long as you don't dim?
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: jayman13 on January 23, 2011, 04:47:55 PM
Sorry, posted too fast.  You answered my question.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: jayman13 on January 23, 2011, 04:51:48 PM
May be a stupid question.  My hall light has two fixtures.  Would I have to put an incandescent bulb in each fixture or can I get away with just one incandescent bulb in one fixutre and the rest socket rockets?
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: dave w on January 23, 2011, 05:25:42 PM
Maybe we are talking apples and oranges. You only need the incandescent hack if your light fixtures are controlled with a two wire X10 switch WS467, or WS12 or the 3-way WS477 (yeah it has three wires, but none go to Nuetral). The Socket Rocket should work fine.

However the obligatory disclaimer follows:

X10 clearly describes Socket Rockets, and their two wire wall switches as INCANDESCENT ONLY. They do this for a reason. The module's output, controlled by a Triac, is distorted and becomes extremely distored if dimmed (where dimming is possible). Flourescent (compact or otherwise) and many LED bulbs do not like this distortion, even the small distortion a Socket Rocket puts out.

When ignoring X10 directions, be aware that you are taking a risk and should do some testing before decalring everything is just dandy. I have described my testing in other threads but a good way is just leave the CFL on for a while and periodically check the bulb for excessive heat or burning smell.

Do not remove this tag under paenalty of law.  :'
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: Calprinter on February 05, 2011, 12:24:28 AM
I have gotten several new WS467's (Date 10E21) and looking it over it appears that they have added the "3rd wire" as a case connection. Does this mean it will work for CFL's? The unit is stamped "incandescent only". Is this a discalimer?
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: Brian H on February 05, 2011, 06:07:35 AM
WS467 with a third wire?
Was the installation sheet updated?
If the third wire is bare or bonded to the metal shell. It is a safety ground and the switch is still a two wire type.
So no it can not run CFLs.
The Incadescent Only stamping also would indicate it is only for those type of bulb loads.
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: dave w on February 05, 2011, 02:45:14 PM
Quote from: Calprinter on February 05, 2011, 12:24:28 AM
The unit is stamped "incandescent only". Is this a discalimer?
No.
Even if it has a green grounding wire, the WS467 still draws it's operational power through the load. If a CFL can not deliver this parasitic power, the WS467 will not work. A "dimmable" CFL might deliver this power.
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: us78749 on March 19, 2012, 06:26:32 PM
X10 in Jerry’s House

I have 16 of the X10 circuits and many motion detectors. Both are sensitive to line noise and improper light bulbs.

I hear the term noise applied to all problems related to reception. Filtering and bridge circuits should also be considered. My lights will not work on the same circuit with a microwave oven. The microwave oven is not running. Due to the high current and function of a microwave it has the potential to create great amounts of line noise. Therefore it has good line filtering to prevent the generation of line noise. That filtering is designed to bridge unwanted signals straight to ground or to simply filter them out with fairly large inductors and capacitors. That same filtering or bridging circuitry could filter out X10 signals when the microwave is plugged in but not cooking anything.

Solution 1: I installed an ACT (Advanced Controls Technologies) AF120, 15 amp, plug in filter. It works. I am pushing the limits of this filter because it is rated at 15 amps and the microwave pulls 16.25 amps on high position. I ran the microwave for 5 minutes on high and the filter held up. Keep in mind many filters of this type on the market are only 5 amps.

Solution 2: The type of bulb you use really is important. I do not know if these bulbs are generating bad noise or if they are filtering out good signals. They will prevent X10 from working and also motion detectors. A bad CFL dimmable bulb in particular is from Lowes and is the Utilitech, LBP23TDM, 23 W, 230ma, 1600 lumens. The same bulb in the 1025 lumen output did not caused a problem.

Two other CFL bulbs that worked fine for me were GE Helical 26 watt and Sylvania 24 watt. Dimmable did not seem to solve any problems for me.

For one motion detector, it definitely needed at least 1 incandescent bulb in a 2 light fixture. The other bulb could then be the 1600 lumen CFL bulb. This will have to do until I can get a 3 wire X10 wall switch.

I have a few motion detectors of similar type bought at different times. The sensing current is different for each and the type of bulb to use is questionable. Incandescent lamps always work. An LED light bulb will usually stay on dim when turned off. Some CFLs will flicker.

The 3 line X10 wall switches should resolve many X10 problems if you have the hot wire, neutral and ground in your switchbox.  The Leviton 2209WI is probably one of those switches. They are out of stock at the time of this writing. March 19, 2012.

The 3 wire motion detectors will also offer the selection of any light bulb that does not inhibit the use of X10 devices. I would suggest any motion detector have both sensitivity and time adjustments. Brazix makes a 3 wire motion detector that might work for you.



Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: Dragon on April 05, 2017, 11:16:55 PM
Using the neutral wire mod described in this thread, I've found the latest version of Philips 457036 65W equiv reflector LED randomly flickers.  Connecting an oscilloscope between the blue load wire on the switch and neutral white, I get this:

(http://dracoventions.com/images/WS467/20170404_230450.jpg)

Notice the weird spiky dips near the peak of each pseudo-sine wave.  Sometimes the spikes disappear and the peaks become narrow:

(http://dracoventions.com/images/WS467/20170404_230539.jpg)

The scope shows the narrowed peaks have lowered Vrms to 8.4 (which is 84V on a 10X probe) which I think explains the flickering dimming.  If I connect either of two older, 100W equivalent omnidirectional LEDs, I get a more normal looking sine and no flickering:

(http://dracoventions.com/images/WS467/20170405_140615.jpg)

Notice Vrms reads 11.4 (114V) as expected for a 110-120V device.

I've tried three different Philips 457036 and two different modified X10 switches and each has the same problem.

I also found that an unmodified X10 switch does not have the flickering problem, but it leaves the light on dimly when the switch is off.

Here's a wiring diagram of the neutral wire modification:

(http://dracoventions.com/images/WS467/WS467%201998%20era%20neutral%20mod%20diagram.png)

Wires were cut at two sets of green Xs and new connections are represented by green lines.

Here's the completed mod (I desoldered the short end of the 330k resistor and reused it instead of adding a new 330k, and the neutral wire is yellow):

(http://dracoventions.com/images/WS467/20170304_092332 half size.jpg)

Any ideas how the flickering might be fixed?
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: Brian H on April 06, 2017, 06:11:15 AM
Is the Phillips rated as a Dimmable CFL?
Its electronics may not play well with a triac dimmer circuit driving it even if you are at 100% On.
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: Dragon on April 06, 2017, 11:42:15 AM
Hi Brian,

Yes, Philips 457036 LED (it's not CFL) is rated for diming.  I can dim it on the modified or unmodified X10 switch but the flickering problem persists at all dim levels on the modified one.

I also have WS467 X10 switches made in 2009 that contain a daughter board and other new components that I found a way to modify and they drive the Philips without flickering.  So that gives me hope it's possible to get the older switches working somehow.

Here's Philips running on a modified 2009 switch:

(http://dracoventions.com/images/WS467/20170404_230058.jpg)

The mod on the 2009 switch is much simpler, requiring only one wire cut and no moving the 330k resistor:

(http://dracoventions.com/images/WS467/WS467%202016%20era%20neutral%20mod%20diagram.png)

The actual circuit with daughter board is more complex than the schematic above and the chip pins are different but the part being modified looks like the schematic.  Instead of cutting the blue wire and replacing with white, I just wrapped original blue in white tape and added a new blue wire to the cut choke wire:

(http://dracoventions.com/images/WS467/WS467 2016 era neutral mod simple explanation.png)

BTW, I see ebay is still selling "new" WS467s that look like the old models.  The ones I got have big white house/unit code dials that look more modern and come in a sky-blue box:

(http://dracoventions.com/images/WS467/2016 switches have big white dials.jpg)

(http://dracoventions.com/images/WS467/2016 switches come in sky blue box.jpg)

I've got four of them modified and tested on about 5 different types of LED without issue, including the Philips 457036.  Considering they sell for as low as $10 shipped, it's probably easier to just replace the older switches with them when necessary, but if anyone has an idea on how to fix the old ones I'm willing to try.
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: Brian H on April 06, 2017, 12:36:24 PM
Thank you for the added information.
It should be of some help to others.

Any clues of age between the two hardware versions you are referencing?
Maybe the Date Code on the white sticker. Usually on the back.
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: Dragon on April 06, 2017, 05:49:01 PM
These switches are all from my father's house and he's had X10 since the 80s when the house was built.  He's still got a lot of the oldest model switches that are deeper and held together with rivets.  The two with flickering problems are marked 4A4 with a Radio Shack brand.  I'm guessing 4th week of 2004?  I also have a Sears brand marked 9A03 (9th week, 2003?).  One of the new ones that don't flicker is X10 brand, 09I36 (36th week, 2009?  It's definitely got an i in the middle, not a 1).  I've modded and installed four that I thought were purchased ~2016 based on what Dad said but I went back later and pulled one to find it also labeled 09I36, so I guess they're all 2009. 

(http://dracoventions.com/images/WS467/Old and new era date stamps.jpg)

The Sears brand has all the same components as Radio Shack, but a lot of the caps and resistors are a little smaller physically and it has a green wire instead of yellow:

(http://dracoventions.com/images/WS467/Radio shack left, Sears right.jpg)

I've left the Sears unmodified as I want a baseline to test with, though I should probably modify it and see if it flickers (though I can't imagine it won't).  Radio shack's chip is marked 78566 9409 while Sears is PICO-78566 8845.  Both have 78566 in them so I assume they're the same general model.  Sears plastic seems weaker as I broke a corner clip opening it up.

Here's the inside of one of the older switches with some codes on the circuit board in case they mean anything:

(http://dracoventions.com/images/WS467/1998 era circuit board insignias.jpg)
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: Dragon on April 06, 2017, 10:55:56 PM
Well, this is shocking.

I went ahead and modded the Sears brand switch and it has no problem with the Philips bulb!  Sine wave is expected thickness and regular with no spikes.  Scope reads steady 106 to 108Vrms.  I see no flicker at any dimness level and it's been running with no flicker for 20ish minutes.

The 330k resistor on Sears was installed backwards so the end I desoldered was a long bare wire.  This made me think that maybe desoldering near the resistor on the Radio Shacks had damaged the resistor, but I tested one at 346k which I would think is close enough.

Just to make sure it wasn't some bizarre intermittent issue with house current, I tested the Radio Shack switch immediately after the Sears had been stable and got immediate flickering and the weird sine wave.

I compared components and noticed the following:
Radio shack has a row of three 221 (220pF?) flat capacitors, Sears uses 220 (22pF?).  A few of the other flat caps also have different values.  Sears uses 5% gold-band tolerance resistors everywhere, Radio Shack uses silver 10% tolerance in a few places.

Back of PCBs look almost identical.  Sears is on the left:

(http://dracoventions.com/images/WS467/Sears%20board%20left,%20Radio%20Shack%20right.jpg)

Since I'd broken a corner clip on the front of the Sears housing I tried swapping the front housing from Radio Shack to Sears (keeping the Sears back with the Sears board) and that worked fine.

So, I don't know what's going on, but it appears that manufacturer and specific values of internal components matters with the neutral mod.
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: Brian H on April 07, 2017, 05:58:22 AM
I have seen a few difference WS467 schematics over the years. As I suspect hardware revisions are in place over the years.
That could explain why you are getting different findings between them.

The capacitors could be different or just be the same with a different method of labeling the value.

From what I have seen When X10WTI took over. Their designs where how many parts can we eliminate and still have it work.
Like a "*" next to a component in the FCC Database Schematics. Was part not installed.  :'

The photo with the PICO marked controller must be one of the originals. Pico Electronics developed the modules and power line communications protocol. I have seen their original patents paper work. If memory serves me the X10 was the tenth experimental project they developed.

I would not be too surprised if the present models may even be using surface mounted components.

I know the present Appliance Modules and Lamp Modules are 100% different than any schematics I have seen. Surface mounted controllers that are using about 3.5 volts VCC. The latest wall switches could also be 100% different from the schematics we have seen.
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: dave w on April 07, 2017, 03:30:06 PM
Quote from: Dragon on April 06, 2017, 05:49:01 PM
The Sears brand has all the same components as Radio Shack, but a lot of the caps and resistors are a little smaller physically and it has a green wire instead of yellow:

I've left the Sears unmodified as I want a baseline to test with, though I should probably modify it and see if it flickers (though I can't imagine it won't).  Radio shack's chip is marked 78566 9409 while Sears is PICO-78566 8845.  Both have 78566 in them so I assume they're the same general model.  Sears plastic seems weaker as I broke a corner clip opening it up.
Nice write-up and pictures. I want to buttress what Brian said about X10WTI quality/reliability. X10's design philosophy seemed to be "make it cheap with low margins and sell a lot". As Brian said, a design would come out and after a few years it went through a "cost reduction" and parts would be missing compared to the older model. At X10, it was; "what can we remove and still have it work". One way to tell of a cost reduction had happened was if there was less screws holding the case together. i.e. The original BSR lamp and appliance modules used four screws and had two PC boards crammed in the module case. The first redesign came after X10 divorced themselves from the BSR marketing / distribution partnership. The Maxi Controller, Appliance Module and Lamp Module were all redesigned to reduce PC board count and build complexity. It was a good move. The cost reductions came later.

I never got a handle on the "Date Code" X10 stuck on the modules, but the Pico chips were more conventional.  78566 was the Pico chip number followed by year and week of manufacture.

I'll go back to sleep now.
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: Dragon on April 08, 2017, 01:52:32 AM
According to this (http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=29215.0), the left digit in the date code sticker is the year, the letter is the month (A=Jan, L=Dec), and the last two digits are the week (1 to 91).  If the year is a single digit, it's supposedly the X in 199X.  If two digits, it's XX in 20XX.

So in my Dad's switches:

Radio Shack brand: 4A4 with chip marked 9409
If Dave is right about the chip code, the chip was made in the 9th week of 1994.  4A4 should mean 1994, Jan, 4th week.  The dates are close, but it's odd the chip claims to have been made a few weeks after the unit was assembled.

Sears brand: 9A03 with chip marked 8845
Chip code implies 45th week of 1988.  9A03 should mean 1999, Jan, 3rd week.  However, given the chip code implies 1988, and the PICO on the chip implies it's older than the Radio Shack switches, I'm guessing 9A03 actually means 1989 in this case.  Maybe in PICO-era units, a single digit year is always 198X?  This (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X10_%28industry_standard%29#Device_modules) makes it sound like PICO-branded stuff was likely winding down by 1985 when their US partner BSR went out of business.

X10 brand: 09I36
09I36 should mean 2009, Sep, 36th week.  36 / 4 = 9, so Sep makes sense.
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: Brian H on April 08, 2017, 06:27:15 AM
There is an explanation of the 5 digit date code in an X10 Wiki entry on differences in Lamp Module hardware.
http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/SoftStart

I also have a real old BSR Model X10-HD243 Heavy Duty Appliance Module. It has a 4 digit Date Code 2J42.
I agree the single digit Date Code could be vintage 198X or 199X for the year.
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: Dragon on April 12, 2017, 01:47:28 AM
I've now added a neutral wire to seven BSR brand 1980s era WS467 switches.  They're much thicker than newer switches and are held closed with rivets.  The modded switches have no problem with the Philips bulbs but the ones made in 1980 show a bit of spiking in the sine waves and very occasional flicker with GE bulbs that haven't had problems in any of the other switches.  Go figure.

Switches made in 1980 have a round green sticker that starts with 0, while 1984 switches have a round white sticker that starts with 4.

Here are the steps:

With a new 1/8" titanium-coated drill bit, drill in the center of the rivet on the front of the switch.  Push with gradually-increasing pressure till drill bit starts to carve out a thin strip of metal.  If you push too hard and it will bite too deep and start spinning the rivet instead of cutting.  When it works correctly, you should feel a slight change as the ring-shaped rivet head snaps off and starts to pull away from the switch.

The rivet is brass colored inside but if you see silver, you're drilling into the aluminum frame of the switch, so stop.

If the rivet head ring doesn't break off from drilling (which happened about half the time before I switched to the new titanium bit which drilled 8 in a row with no problem), gently hammer a small chisel under the ring to break it off.  Once it starts to break, to limit nicking the switch faceplate, you can pull it off with a pliers.  You might even get a grip on it with pliers without chiseling - start with whatever side the drill made thinnest.  Bend any parts that don't break off inward so they'll slip through the hole.

Once rivet head is removed, push rivet body out of switch with needle-nose pliers enough to grasp its other end with pliers and pull out completely.

Switches made in 1980 look like this:

(http://dracoventions.com/images/WS467/1980%20choke%20twisted%20with%20new%20blue%20wire.jpg)

There is a small hole in the circuit board where I added the darker blue wire nearest the camera goes through.  That new wire is 18awg and will serve as the load wire.  To make room for it to slip through, I had to enlarge the existing hole with a 7/64" drill bit.  I did it by hand using the drill bit in a tap wrench and twisting back and forth to make sure I didn't damage components below the PCB, but a very slow electric drill used with gentle pressure would probably also work.  Either way, use low pressure near the end or the bit will to break through the PCB surface suddenly and slam into the other PCB or scratch a component.

Strip 1/4" insulation from the blue wire, then put the stripped end in the new hole and use a pliers to pull it between the sky-blue resistor and the red choke as you see in the picture.

In the 1984 board, there is already a hole near the 330k resistor that is large enough to fit the darker blue wire:

(http://dracoventions.com/images/WS467/1984%20choke%20twisted%20with%20new%20blue%20wire.jpg)

On either board, use a desoldering braid to remove most of the solder from where the choke wire is soldered in near the corner of the PCB.  Grip the choke wire with pliers near where it enters the coil, then twist clockwise as you heat the hole it's in to pull it out.  Once out, use a pliers to twist stripped blue wire with choke wire as in the pictures.

Solder choke and blue wire together, then add heat-shrink tube over soldered wires.

Near an edge of the PCB, find the 330k resistor which is a brown cylinder with a silver, yellow, and two orange bands.  Wedge something under the side of the resistor that's nearest the choke.  Heat solder holding the wire on that side of the resistor and pry it out of the PCB.  Straighten the wire, then bend a small hook in the end of it.

Strip a bit over 1/8" of insulation from the end of new 24awg stranded wire (I used a yellow wire in the pictures), make a hook, then crimp the hook to the hook in the 330k resistor.  Solder together.  You can optionally add heat shrink over the soldered wires but I didn't feel they were near enough anything to bother.  Don't cover any part of the resistor with heat shrink because it needs to dissipate heat.

Thread the 24awg wire over to the hole where choke wire was removed from.  In the 1980 board, don't confuse the choke wire hole with an adjacent larger hole that is ringed with solder and I guess acts as a test pad.  Make sure the new 24awg wire fits completely inside the case and won't be crimped when the case is closed (also push the two PCBs together and look for places that might pinch the new wire), then cut to length, strip 1/8", stick stripped wires up through PCB hole so wires protrude a bit above the hole, then cover with a mound of solder, being careful not to push the wires down as you work.

Completed wiring in 1984 switch:

(http://dracoventions.com/images/WS467/1984 wiring complete.jpg)

I picked up metric M3 nuts and bolts at the local hardware store to replace the rivets.  The nuts fit exactly in the depressions in the body of the switch.  Although the bolts are thinner than the rivets, it doesn't matter because the plastic parts are keyed to each other.  Result:

(http://dracoventions.com/images/WS467/1984 completed.jpg)

It's blurry, but the original lighter blue wire is wrapped in white electrical tape to identify it as neutral.

I use a cut and stripped extension cord with Wago 221-415 lever nuts for testing.  They're expensive, but so quick and easy to connect and disconnect and hold securely - just flip one of those orange levers up, slide wire in with no resistance, then flip lever down.  I've started using them in all my DIY electrical work instead of wire nuts.

(http://dracoventions.com/images/WS467/Testing with Wago lever nuts.jpg)

Connect all 3 white neutral wires together.
Connect black (hot) from the wall to black in the switch.
Connect blue from the switch to black leading to the lamp.
Plug a lamp in to the end of the extension.
Green ground wire is floating here and not attached to anything since the lamp plug is two-prong.
I plug the whole thing into a power bar so I can easily flip power on/off while I set up the connections.

I let each switch run two LEDs (total 26W) for at least an hour and watched them with a FLIROne IR camera to see that nothing overheated.  They all got hottest near the center of the PCB and in the 330k resistor but never above 90F.  I checked the 1988, 1994, and 2009 switches the same way.  I also ran them all at least an hour with the case closed and saw no significant heat buildup.

Finally, the neutral mod actually fixed one of the switches.  Two of the 1980 switches I pulled would not light any kind of bulb I tried them with for more than a second, even an incandescent.  One of them would not respond to X10 commands.  I used one of them as my test subject when testing the modification and was surprised to find it started working normally after adding the neutral wire.  So I tried modifying the second one (the one that didn't respond to X10) but sadly it remained broken after modification.
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: Brian H on April 12, 2017, 06:07:42 AM
Thank you again for all your work on modifications to add the Neutral Connections. To different vintage X10 Wall Switches.
I have add a helpful post count for you.
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: dave w on April 12, 2017, 08:30:37 PM
Adding nothing to this post, but reminiscing:
The original BSR/Sears and X10 light switches had a toggle, instead of the push button, and could not be dimmed locally.
I'll go back to sleep now. ;)
Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: AlpineJoe on May 06, 2021, 06:43:36 PM
Replying to this old thread, partly to say it helped me, but also that I did this differently.

Background: Older X-10 wall switch, used to work with an older philips and Cree LED bulb for many many years but stopped working.  Thought it was the wireless motion sensor, then thought it was the phase coupler, finally thought it was the wall switch.  I should have just put an incandescent in there to begin with to test as that would have showed a signal problem.

Came across this thread when looking up 'how to run LED bulb from X10 wall switch", and decided to add a neutral wire to my switch.  Reviewing the schematic though, I saw that the safety lockout switch was going to be bypassed so I added a neutral wire differently.  I lifted the leg of C2 that went to the lockout switch, and hooked a white neutral wire to that.  Safety lockout still works, wall switch now gets full line power without going through bulb, and wall switch now has no problem turning an LED bulb on and off.  I still have to use a bulb that doesn't partially light when the wall switch is 'off', but this totally solved my problem. (note: I just used the same Philips bulb I had in there that worked before)

Rework is more difficult, and I still need to buy a pico fuse to fuse the neutral wire for safety, but I'm happy with the results and that the safety lockout is retained.

Title: Re: Converting An Existing X10 System To Work With CFLs
Post by: Brian H on May 07, 2021, 06:17:31 AM
One of the old X10 related web sites. That is probably out of business now.
Had a Add a Neutral to a wall switch. To modify for a Neutral power connection tutorial on it.

The mods shown in this thread don't apply to the presently sold Soft Start LM465 and CFL friendly Appliance Module. That where redesigned.