X10 Community Forum
🛡Home Security => Home Security General => Topic started by: Norm on February 23, 2008, 01:32:05 PM
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What do I need or how do I get RF from these sensors into the electrical system so I can run macros from Active Home Pro. I want to locate the sensors in my detached garage which is wired to the house electrical system. The sensors only seem to work when close to my CM15A interface. RF range for sensors appears to be very limited 15-20 feet. They do not appear to be able to interface with my TM751 transceiver. I have a coupler-repeater-amplifier installed across phases. All I want is to turn on lights and maybe sound a horn if someone goes into garage. Also, I would like to be able to use KR10 A to arm and disarm, turn on lights, etc from just out side the garage. Right now the security keyfob only works within 10-15 feet of the CM15A interface, which is in my home office. Any help appreciated.
Regards,
Norm
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The problem is more the reception range of the CM15A than the transmission range of the security sensors. You might want to check out various ways to improve the CM15A's reception: Project To Increase Range Of CM15A (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=9470.0)
Another alternative is to use a WGL Design V572RF32 (http://www.wgldesigns.com/v572.html) antenna.
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Norm - this is a good topic. I'm also new and have spent days at a time trying to understand the hows & whys. Mr. Puck or Tuicemen (or others) will correct me if I'm off center, but:
The TM751 tranceives only 1 HouseCode. If all your garage sensors are on the same HouseCode, set the 751 to that code and position it in the garage. It will receive the sensors and tranceive their signal onto the powerline.
1. But the sensors must be on the same HouseCode as the 751 - OR - you need a 751 for each different HouseCode used in the garage. 751's are not polite. The RR501's are.
As Puck points out, the V572RF32 is one solution. I've ordered a SR731 ($25-eBay) which "should" extend the range of all 256 codes - time will tell.
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Problem seems to be that the MS10A and the DS10A are not addressable. Some magic code is generated by the ActiveHome software during installation process that only the CM15A recognizes. I have a SocketRocket installed in an external light on the garage. The default address for it is A1. Using a PalmPad I can turn the light off and on via a TM751...regardless of the code set on the TM751, e.g., house code set to A, B, c, etc. So the TM receives the signal and transmits it into the electrical system. I have a Signal.Inc Coupler-Repeater and when I press A1 on the PalmPad I can see the lights blink on the Coupler-Repeater so I know the signal has been injected into the electrical system. When I trigger either the Motion or Door-Window sensors, no signal is received and repeated by the Coupler-Repeater. It appears the RF signal generated by these sensors can only be received by the CM15A or a "security console," within range, and that range appears to be very short. They sell other motion detectors which are apparently addressable and work with the TM751, but that still doesn't help with the door-window sensors. What am I missing??? Suggestions appreciated.
Regards,
Norm
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I think Puck answered your question. The SR731 (sold by X10) will repeat security sensors, and the V572RF32 transceiver (WGL & Associates) in combination with a PSC05 interface module will repeat as well. Of course, the SR731 receives RF and retransmits RF, while the V572RF32 receives RF and retransmits over the power line. At least that's my understanding of the two.........
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Sounds like the V572RF32 is what I need. Any suggestions as to where to buy. One site appears to have a good price, but nothing on the page indicates the price includes the interface. suggestions? Thanks to everyone for the help!
Regards,
Norm
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You might try www.hnausa.com - I think it's $89.95. Not cheap, but it has great range and is easy to set up. Once programmed you can position it to the appropriate position for range.
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Thanks! Ordered. Will post results after installed.
Norm
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I read the info on the V572RF32 -- it says "In addition to the standard features it also receives 32 bit RF data from X10 devices like the DS10A & MS10A. These 32 bit security signals are mapped to any regular X10 address and transmitted over the power line." The question I have is this: What does the CM15A do with this power line data? Will AHP/OnAlert receive/recognize/process these power line commands in the same way as it handles RF data from the security sensors? Has anyone else tried using the V572RF32 with security sensors and AHP/OnAlert? I'm looking forward to hearing about anyone's (especially Norm's) experience with this...
Even if this works, it's a fairly expensive solution. I've had great success with the aforementioned f-connector mod on the CM15A and an old pair of TV rabbit ears...
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What does the CM15A do with this power line data? Will AHP/OnAlert receive/recognize/process these power line commands in the same way as it handles RF data from the security sensors? Has anyone else tried using the V572RF32 with security sensors and AHP/OnAlert?
AHP will react to these now converted PLC signals just like any other PLC signal. They can be used to trigger macros or turn devices ON/OFF that are set to the same HC/UC.
If you convert your security sensors to PLC with the V572RF32, then you don't necessarily need OnAlert. However, when security sensors are converted to regular X10 PLC signals, any macros they trigger are now subject to such things as power line noise, signal suckers or even false triggers from a neighbor.
Using the V572RF32 with AHP works incredible for RF range, but just be aware of the potential holes that are poked into your security system. I use mine in conjunction with the DS7000, so the security side is still reliably and I mainly use the converted PLC signals for non-security (mainly automation) macros.
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Thanks for all of the input. Is there a way to make a light flash, other than writing a long macro to repeatedly turn lights on and off rapidly?
Norm
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...Is there a way to make a light flash, other than writing a long macro to repeatedly turn lights on and off rapidly?...
You could always have universal module trigger a powerflash module. If you chose this option, make sure the universal module is set to a different HC than the powerflash module.
Doing it with programming wouldn't require a long macro. Simply 2 or 3 small ones.
Which approach would you prefer the hardware one or a software one? If you're interested in a software approach, would you want it to continue flashing till you told it to stop or just for a certain period of time.
I have a macro to flash my lights that I can start and stop via a button or by voice using the BVC software with AHP.
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Thanks..I'll try the macro.
I just received my V572RF32; now I have to set it up.
Norm
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Thanks..I'll try the macro.
So would you like lights to flash continuously till you shut them off or auto stop after a period of time?
I'd be happy to share my macros if you think they would help.
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Anxiously awaiting your test results, Norm...
I've been experimenting with several different homemade antennae on my f-modded CM15A. So far, I've been unable to reliably receive signals from all of my DS10A modules, and have completely given up on the MS10A. (Incidentally, my DS7000 responds to all of these modules just fine.) If you report favorably wrt using the V572RF32 to convert security RF signals to PLC, I may just give up on the antenna mods and do the same. I've "invested" at least 20 hours in testing/tweaking, and if I can spend $90 to make my signal problems go away, I will happily do it!
The wife is starting to worry that I'm not getting enough sleep. Who would have thought that my desire to turn on a light when a doors opens could evolve into such a time consuming (and expensive) hobby... ;D
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Well, so far results suck. I set the unit (V572) up, configured it via the computer, and then moved the the unit to my bedroom on the other side of the house from my office. I hung the antenna on the top of the closet door (basically vertical) and then tried to send signal using the security keyfob (KR10A), the slimfire remote (KR19A), and the motion detector (MS10A). As I activated these devices I watched the green light on the V572 transceiver for indication that it was detecting the various controls. I found I had to be within 6-7 feet of the unit/antenna before it detected the various control signals. It appears my TM751 transceiver is more sensitive. Between the TM751 and the CM15A, one on either end of the house, the slimfire remote seems to work throughout the house. Of course the slimfire is transmitting house/unit code, not the 32 bit RF code I need to use the motion sensor, security keyfob, and door/window sensors. I must be doing something wrong, because I'm certainly not get 100-200 feet range reception others have talked about. Any body have any ideas?? In my tests, I wasn't even trying to transmit through any walls.
Norm
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Norm: Make sure your antenna cables are all tight and there are no kinks in it. Also, you might want to unplug any TM751 transceivers and un-Transceive all housecodes in the CM15A. Then check AHP's activity monitor during your tests. I suspect you could be getting signal collisions.
Remember that the CM15A will still pick up RF signals and act upon them for macro execution even though that housecode is not transceived. For your test, I suggest you set your remote to an unused housecode/unitcode and look for the CM15A to receive the signal as a PLC.
If you are still getting only 6 - 7 feet of reception then there has to be a fault with that V572RF32 or maybe its placement. I have mine centrally located (high) in my house and am getting coverage of at least a 40' perimeter around the outside of my house.
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That's really bad, Norm. Sorry to hear you're having trouble. I can get 6-7 feet without an antenna even connected to my f-modded CM15A. Any chance that you have a bad antenna/cable? Did you do a continuity check with an ohmeter?
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I would really appreciate seeing any macros you will share....
This is I stripped down version of my macros. I do a few other things in mine that you don't need to do for the basic flashing.
Ok this arrangement uses 3 macros, 1 dummy appliance module, and 1 flag.
For my example, I've used macros "P4 ON", "P5 ON", "P5 OFF", "Dummy module defined as P4", and flag 2
Flash Lights - Loop P4 On and Flag Status On exactly 2
House Code C All Lights On
Delay for 5 Seconds ;Pick your own delay times
House Code C All Units Off
Delay for 5 Seconds ;Pick your own delay times
P4 ON
Flash Lights - Start P5 On
Set Flags [2] Flag Command
P4 ON
Flash Lights - Stop P5 Off
Clear Flags [2] Flag Command
Delay for 2 Seconds
Clear Flags [2] Flag Command ;Redundant command ideally not needed but this is X10 you know. ;)
Delay for 15 Seconds
House Code C All Units Off ;Insures that lights are left off. If you prefer you can send an "All Lights On" or omit all together.
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In addition to the above......
If you have a ds7000 security console, make sure the V572RF32 is not transceiving the housecode that the DS7000 is set to.
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Well, tightened connections, relocated, dumped set-up, and started all over. It appears the V572 can now receive RF from my devices about 50 feet and injects signals into my electrical system. I also tested it from my detached garage, which is about 120 feet from my office and the signals in the electrical signal made it to my CM15A interface. Today, I am going to try from what I hope is a permanent location, in the garage attached to the house (about half way between the detached garage and my office). This time I will put the antenna in the attic and the V572 down inside the garage. The attic gets to hot for the V572. If RF signals from the garage still reliably make it into the system, I will mount sensors in the garage and then go back to work on the macros to make the stuff do what I want it to. Things are starting to look up! Thanks to everyone for all of the help! I will post results.
Regards,
Norm
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Well I got my WR thing, installed an electrical outlet in attic, installed the thing and put the antenna at the roof peak. For a while I was able to receive signals from the motion detector and door/window sensors in the garage...then they quit. At first, when my wife triggered the motion detector in the morning, after 5 Min's. the system would turn off the lights after she left. When that happened I was working on another project and assumed it had to do with a sunrise/sunset setting. Apparently that wasn't it. In any case, I have since moved a 751 out to the garage and now I can run a macro from the house which will turn on the lights and sound a siren, but when I enter the garage the lights do not come on..just the siren. And the macro changed from a siren to a chime...on it's own. Changed back, eliminating the bright/dim commands that came out of nowhere. I have tried to put delays in the macro, thinking that there might be data collisions between the motion detector and the macro. Didn't seem to help. I have spent a lot of money and a lot of hours screwing with this stuff and it's really getting old. To check out the WR thing I'll have to take my computer up into the roof. I guess I'll have to reinstall the door/window sensors to work with the 751. I have been trying to work alone and it's well over a hundred feet to the garage...You can't believe how many trips I've made back and forth. I am beginning to believe it would have been easier to hard-wire everthing. Anybody have any ideas why the macro works when triggered from the computer, but when triggered by the motion detector? Also, my siren only sounds for about 4 seconds using a couple of on/off commands. When I use a single on command it acts as an annunciator. How do I turn on the siren and have it sound until I send an off command? Any help appreciated.
Norm
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Also, using the active pro computer program...how does one "arm" or "disarm" the system?
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1. - I assume you have AHP & all 4 plug-in modules.
2. If you are referring to a DS7000 system, AHP can ARM, but not disarm it. And you have to install whatever security remotes you plan to use - into AHP, then create a macro using that remote to ARM the DS7000 - AND THEN YOU MUST set the DS7000 to install and RUN the macro once to register it with the DS7000. And YES, it takes up one of the 8 security remote slots on the DS7000.
3. V572 converts all RF to PLC. PLC representations of security sensors do not register with the cooresponding installed security module in AHP. What that means is - If you install a DS10a door/window sensor in AHP - ONLY RF from that sensor will cause the AHP representation of that sensor to reflect its state. The V572 won't help you there - BUT say for instance, you tell the V572 to send a HC\UC of C5 On & OFF whenever the DS10A opens & closes. You MUST register that MS10a with the V572. Then every time that DS10a opens, the V572 sends a C5-ON down the powerline. You can then use that C5-ON to change the state of a phantom appliance module and/or trigger a macro.
I have a macro who's trigger is dependent upon the STATE of a DS10a and therefore operates ONLY upon RF from the sensor - I use SR731's to get the RF to the CM15.
4. Do NOT transceive HC's with the V572 unless you really need them. The V572 is very fast, but can flood the PL with PLC's. Remember, the DS7000 is also a transceiver for whatever HC you have it set to. Add in a few 751's and your PL gets clogged.
5. Your V572 will receive RF commands from AHP (via the CM15) and convert them to PLCs !
6. Try to get sensors registered everywhere they need to be registered before installing. It's easier to have the DS10a in you hand as you install it into AHP, the V572, and the DS7000, then it is to have to walk out to that garage everytime you need to trip it. And use a phantom switch to test macros, then when they're working, change the sensor to the installed switch.
Lighten up - what works today will probably NOT work every time. Sometimes all of your lights will come on at 3 a.m. for no reason. If you can't live/laugh with that - send us a list of your stuff & someone will offer to take it off your hands. The DS7000 makes a damn fine DIY alarm system - but you sure do NOT want to bet your life/safety on AHP.
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i don't have a DS7000, didn't know i needed one.
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Well - I bet some other (smarter) folks jump in and tell you how to write macros to use AHP to make an alarm system. If I wanted an alarm system first and the cool stuff second, , and I could get the RF reception in one central location (with or without SR731's) - and knowing what I've learned since last November - I'd get a DS7000 for the alarm work, and use AHP for the cool stuff.
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I guess I'll have to reinstall the door/window sensors to work with the 751.
The door/window sensors send out a security RF signal, the TM751 will not work with it since it only recognizes normal X10 RF signals.
Anybody have any ideas why the macro works when triggered from the computer, but when triggered by the motion detector?
Either your motion detector's signal is not being received by the CM15A or there is a condition in the macro that is not true when the motion detector triggers it (conditions are ignored when macros are clicked on manually).
If your macro is being run from the PC (as opposed to stored in interface), you may have to Transceive the house code of the motion detector.
Also, my siren only sounds for about 4 seconds using a couple of on/off commands. When I use a single on command it acts as an annunciator. How do I turn on the siren and have it sound until I send an off command?
This is normal. Once the on/off sequence stops the alarm stops a few seconds later. There is no other way to have it stay on continuously (unfortunately).
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If the siren module is the smaller SH10A. You maybe able to trigger a continuous warble by sending the address on and then a series of on's.
Like if it is on M1 send an M1 Mon then a series of Mon Mon Mon. It triggers mine in tests. I believe that same set of commands is sent by the KR15A Big red Panic Button.
Mine; when triggered will not stop till a few offs are sent or four minutes elapses and it resets.
The larger PH508 will not react the same way.
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I am using the PSH02 siren. The motion detector is apparently being recognized by the WR thing because I am using "G1" as the trigger, which I associated with the motion detector when I setup the WR thing. I have finally got the detector to trigger a macro which turns on the lights and sounds the siren using macro as follows:
Turn all lights on for house code 'G'
Turn G10 on
Turn G10 off
Turn G10 on
Turn G10 off
Turn G10 on
Wait for 5 minutes
Turn all units off for house code 'G'
Turn G10 off
I guess I'll try putting a few delays in and a few more "on's" to try and get the siren to sound longer. I also set the motion detector to "2" vs "1" to try and reduce false alarms.
I think I may has confused the WR thing original setup, because in the process of trying to get the door/window sensors to work, I have pressed the "test" button on the sensors...probably many times...not realizing that this may have confused the original setup e.g., signal discovery and PL code to be transmitted.
Next I plan to move the computer to the attic, take all of the door/window sensors, and recapture their signals and reassign the associated codes...and then maybe I can get them working.
Thanks for all the help and suggestions. I'll let everyone know how resetting the WR thing goes.
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New problem. Now that the motion detector can communicate with my computer and the macro (AHP) can turn on the lights and sound the siren.....I have learned that apparently the MS10A sends a signal about every hour and a half, which is the same as if the motion detector had been triggered! So I get an alarm every 1.5 hours. It appears that the signal is supposed to let a security console know the sensor is alive and the battery is OK. Further, it appears the door/window sensors do the same thing. AHP may be able to deal with "I'm OK" signals if a security sensor is used to trigger a macro, but I don't believe it can if a "code" like G1 is used. Any thoughts?
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You're going to have to use FLAGS or Phantoms or both. Set a flag when the door is opened and put a conditional on the macro to not fire if the flag is set - then clear the flag when the door is closed.
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The hourly (or so) signal that gets sent out is the current state of the device. If the door/window sensor is normally closed, then it should not be triggering a macro that is set to run when it sends an open signal. The same principle applies to the MS10A.
Even if you are converting the security module's signal to a PLC with the V572RF32, the same applies. They should be sending an hourly ON or OFF signal with the current state, and your macros should be triggering on only one (ON or OFF) and not both. So make sure your macros are not set to trigger on the normal state.
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Well, I change the macro trigger to use "off" vs "on." Went out to garage and the lights came on and the siren sounded. That was about 1000 this morning. The AHP monitor has not indicated another (false) alarm for almost three hours...so I guess the change worked! I assume if I not redo the association between the door/window sensors and the WR thingi and use "off" they should also work OK. Now I just need a way to keep the siren sounding...4 seconds is not going drive an intruder away.
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Norm,
If what you have works for you and you're happy, don't read any farther. In reading this thread over again, and reading your post that an OFF triggers lights ON - something ain't right.
If I read correctly, you have an MS10a (Security Motion Sensor) and a DS10a (Door/Window security sensor) in your garage and you want a light and siren to come on when you have the system "armed" and the door/windo opens and/or there is motion inside the garage.
And - you DO NOT have a DS7000, but you have a KeyFob and a V572, and AHP with on_alert and Macros.
IF you register the MS10, the DS10, and the Keyfob with AHP, you can set On-Alert to ARMED and Dis-Armed via the keyfob. You can then use the sensors as either TRIGGERS, CONDITIONS, or both - BUT IF AND ONLY IF you can get their SECURITY RF to the CM15a and into AHP. Sounds like you need an SR731 RF repeater to do that.
IF you can't get the sensors' security RF to the CM15 and AHP, but you can get the RF to the V572, then you can do the same stuff, but you have to use PLCs, FLAGS, and Phantoms.
For this scenario - let's assume you can't get the RF to AHP. Therefore On-Alert will be of no use.
Garage MS10a is G2
Garage DS10a is G4
Garage light is G7
Garage siren is G9
KeyFob is G12
Create a Phantom module P10 with a 2-pin simple appliance module
Fire up the V572 configuration program and CAPTURE the MS10, DS10, and KeyFob, redirecting their signals to G2, G4, and G12 respectively. Change the default to CLOSE=OFF, OPEN=ON (I suspect the reason you're getting a trigger of OFF to work when you trip a sensor now is because you're using the default Open=Off)
Test it with the activity monitor. When you cause motion, the MS10 should RF to the V572 - the V572 converts it to a PLC of G2-ON....etc. Get all that working first. The KeyFob should return G12-ON for ARM, and G12-OFF for disarm.
If all that works, Write 2 macros G12
Trigger G12=ON
Set FLAG 12
Trigger G12=OFF
Clear FLAG 12
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Then write a macro that triggers on G2
Trigger G2=ON - AND- FLAG 12 is SET
Set P10 ON
and a macro for the DS10 - G4
Trigger G4=ON - AND- FLAG 12 is SET
Set P10 ON
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Finally a "Sound Alarm" macro P10
Trigger P10=ON
Set G7 ON
Set G9 ON
Set G7 OFF
Set G9 ON
Set G7 ON
Set G9 ON
...etc. and whatever flashing and delays that are needed...
but end with
Set P10 OFF
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.................... or if you're happy with what you have, keep it and ignore this. If I really wanted to have a garage alarm, I'd use a DS7000 because the flashing, siren, arm/disarm, call 4 telephone numbers, etc are all automatic, and much less tempermental than AHP -- and there's no reason you couldn't have another one for the house (on a defferent HC of course!)