X10 Community Forum
💬General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: bilyth on March 28, 2008, 08:57:11 PM
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Hi there,
just heard of x10 for the first time. I'd like to set up a dawn simulator with my bedroom lamp. I've seen a few posts here & there..some of them a bit dated; but haven't found any posts or websites with clear confirmation that it can work and/or step by step instructions.
Basically i want to have a lamp turn on at a set time at a very dim level & gradually brighten over a 30 minute period. (it would be nice..but not as necessary to have it gradually dim off in the evening too)
If someone has experience, can they please point me or tell me what parts i need to obtain & how to set it up? So far, i found these old instructions:
http://alumnus.caltech.edu/~jimmc/dawnsim.html
I understand that the current equivalent parts are: MT12A mini timer, LM465, CM15A Active Home Pro Interface.
Are the the parts i need?
Also, i read somewhere that the light may not increase gradually..but rather in noticeable jumps. Is that true? any way to make it very gradual? Also, i read that it may only increase gradually to a max time of 9 minutes..not 30 minutes (or any # minutes i want to set). Is this true?
Also, once i get the parts..how do i go about writing "scripts" for this?
I found this:
http://tommy.keepword.com/homebrew-dawn-simulator
are these "scripts", the scripts i need? will they work the way i want it? what's perl vs bash? do i need to know..or can i just copy & paste those "scripts" somewhere in the active home program?
Finally, i also read that if i want to take the full advantage of setting up a dawn simluater..that i'd need a full spectrum light (vs regular incandescent lights). can i just buy these lights at a home depot..& will they fit in a regular lamp?
If anyone can help; it'd be appreciated. Also, nice clear step by step instructions would be nice. i'm totally new to x10 lingo & how it works.
thanks very much.
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bilyth Welcome aboard!
Get the Active Home Pro (AHP) all plug-ins package($49) usualy it can be found in the Daily Deals Section (http://www.x10.com/onsale/index.html) at x10
Using the Smartmacros plug-in it is easy to do!
Doing an Advanced search may turn up the actual way to do it! possibly some one will post their macro to do this in the User-Designed Working Macros (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?board=103.0)
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thanks tuiceman,
i've been waiting pateintly for a reply.
Have you had experience with setting dawn simulation? if so, maybe you could answer some of hte more specific questions i had in my original post...
i'm a little concerned that i'll pick up a lamp module that cannot dim over a period of 30 minutes...
also, i find the x10 & sale site a little daunting...i also find the whole programming aspect a little daunting too. so, are you saying i should be able to find a $50 package that contains all the software & parts that i need (like the parts i listed)...i'll have to watch it then..so far i only see an active home pro package but it doesn't seem to contain the parts i need.
also, i did a search of the user made macros & can't find anything specifically on dawn simulation (although i'm sure htey're out there somewhere). i wish i could find some direct step by step instructions...or wish x10 chat supported this type of use/info.
anyways, if you can provide more info..or if someone else can. that'd be appreciated. thanks.
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While programming it will be similar in both cases, you will have a much more reliable arrangement if you use a soft start switch or module.
i.e. Without a soft start switch that remembers it's dim setting when turned off, you will need to leave your light on its dimmest setting instead of turning it off. Also even the briefest power interruption will cause the light to come on at full brightness in the morning.
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Yea, I agree. You need one of the more advanced lamp modules (like the LM14A) which have features like soft-start, and more importantly, absolute (rather than relative) dim levels settings.
This way you could turn the module 'on' directly to a 3% dim, and increase the dim by 3% each minute with a simple AHP macro.
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...possibly some one will post their macro to do this...
See an example using AHP macros here (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=14985.msg83357#msg83357).
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thanks for the input. that's the concern i was trying to address...i wanted to make sure i had the right parts to actually dim on gradually & properly remember settings...so the lm14a is what i need then.
what about the dimmer module..does that matter? does MT12A mini timer suffice?
thanks for the link..i hope hte "coming soon" will be complete soon. i'd like a straightforward guide.
can someone comment on the link i posted:
http://tommy.keepword.com/homebrew-dawn-simulator
are the "scripts" that i need? is it easy to implement into active home?
thanks all.
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...does MT12A mini timer suffice?...
A mini timer could be used to trigger the macros but to do what you want to do you need AHP.
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...can someone comment on the link i posted:
http://tommy.keepword.com/homebrew-dawn-simulator...
Looked confusing to me but I've never programed in Peal. I believe it still requires a piece of hardware called "firecracker" or the old CM11A as well as the modules and a transceiver also. AHP would be cheaper and more useful in the long run.* Furthermore I believe the firecracker needs an old fashion serial port. They are becoming a rarity these days. The CM11A has known problems working with XP also.
Also the script wasn't written to take advantage of the new soft start modules so it would still be lacking.
*Components
For the dawn simulator, I used the following components (prices from 1999):
MT522 mini-timer (functionally equivalent to MT10 mini-timer) $19.11
PLM03 (LM465) lamp module with dimming capability $10.35
CM11A computer controller $39.45
(shipping for the above items) $5.81
300 watt halogen torchier lamp $15.19
Total cost: $89.91
Sure looks like AHP for $49.95 plus a soft start lamp module is a better way to go.
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...does MT12A mini timer suffice?...
A mini timer could be used to trigger the macros but to do what you want to do you need AHP.
right...i'll definitely be getting AHP...but i need a timer too right? or can AHP do everything if my computer's on all the time? (thus making a timer not a requirement?)
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...i'll definitely be getting AHP...but i need a timer too right? or can AHP do everything if my computer's on all the time? (thus making a timer not a requirement?)
Yes AHP and a soft start module should work as AHP has the ability to store timers also. Make sure you get a package with all the extra software such as this one (http://www.x10.com/promotions/cm15a_ed_freesuite_onalert_ss13a_0501.html).
You might want to search the forum for and start reading up on noise, signal suckers, & phase signals as these sometimes can present unwanted obstacles.
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Yes AHP and a soft start module should work as AHP has the ability to store timers also. Make sure you get a package with all the extra software such as this one (http://www.x10.com/promotions/cm15a_ed_freesuite_onalert_ss13a_0501.html).
ok, thanks for all that...
wow, i'm not sure i know what all those different software will do...i thought i only needed one software called AHP...i'll need to study them..do i need them for this dawn simulation? or are there extras for when i want to get into other home automation things? i guess i could just get the soft start module separately (it sounds like the only hardware piece i need then..if no timer required) & then get this software package for $49? sound right?
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bilyth
You don't need them all just the Smart Macro plug-in with AHP but it is cheaper to get them all then just the ones needed! besides you may want them down the road once you see the possibilities!
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bilyth
You don't need them all just the Smart Macro plug-in with AHP but it is cheaper to get them all then just the ones needed! besides you may want them down the road once you see the possibilities!
i get it..thanks!
AHP + smartmacro (2 different software) that i'll need for my application (i thought all i needed was AHP)...that makes sense..so i'll probably get this then...plus the soft smart lamp module.
do they ever have packages that are AHP, smart macro plugin, & the soft start lamp for $50 (without all the extras)? i'm guessing not..since the smart start lamp sounds like "advanced" ie. more expensive.
thanks so much guys!
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just chatted with x10 sales..apparently the lm14a is discontinued?? sales rep says there's no real equivalent that can do dim, soft start & relative dim levels. does that sound right? are there equivalents that will do what i need?
actually, sales rep says the lm465 will do all i need with macros...but i suspect it won't be perfect since it's not one of the "more advanced" lamps that you guys were referring to..am i right?
as posted by walt2:
"You need one of the more advanced lamp modules (like the LM14A) which have features like soft-start, and more importantly, absolute (rather than relative) dim levels settings.
This way you could turn the module 'on' directly to a 3% dim, and increase the dim by 3% each minute with a simple AHP macro."
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Check alternative sources... lots of discontinued X10 modules and modules from other manufacturers are available online. (Is this suggestion taboo?)
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...apparently the lm14a is discontinued?? sales rep says there's no real equivalent that can do dim, soft start & relative dim levels. does that sound right? are there equivalents that will do what i need?
actually, sales rep says the lm465 will do all i need with macros...but i suspect it won't be perfect since it's not one of the "more advanced" lamps that you guys were referring to..am i right?...
The new softStart lamp LM465 Module (http://www.x10.com/promotions/lm465_ed_ss_0317.html) will work as well or better than the old LM14A for what you want to do. The SoftStart lamp LM465 Module was what I wrote my macros to use.
The NEW & IMPROVED SoftStart Lamp Module is better than standard Lamp Modules for a number of reasons. For starters, it "remembers" it's preset level. If you dim your lamp, turn it off, then turn it on again, it will fade on to the same dimness as the last time it was turned off. It's easy on the eyes, especially in the morning when you first wake up. It also extends bulb life, saving you energy and money.
With the Automatic Gain Control (AGC)feature, this Lamp Module has increased signal sensitivity, making it more reliable than ever!
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The new softStart lamp LM465 Module (http://www.x10.com/promotions/lm465_ed_ss_0317.html) will work as well or better than the old LM14A for what you want to do. The SoftStart lamp LM465 Module was what I wrote my macros to use.
oh..ok. didn't know that. based on the sequence in this thread..i initially mentioned the LM465 to see if it's ok & then someone suggested the LM14A...so i figured that was what i needed & the lm465 wasn'st "advanced enough".
so lm465 will be able to do gradual (no noticed jumps) of dimming & brightening? & can set it to brighten over say..30 min no problems?
ok. so this is the one i need then...thanks. alot of golden info!
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...so lm465 will be able to do gradual (no noticed jumps) of dimming & brightening? & can set it to brighten over say..30 min no problems?...
To see the macro examples I linked to earlier, click here (http://www.x10community.com/forums/index.php?topic=14985.msg83357#msg83357).
Basically if you notice "jumps" just lower the increment amount and shorten the time between increments.
Note: "Programming" macros is pretty much a drop & drag job in AHP. Most people, even without programming experience, can create a basic macro in 2-5 minutes.
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thanks for all the help.. i have a very good idea what i need to buy & what i need to do to set up.
one last thing, is there a similar device to the lm465 so that i can have an overhead ceiling light do the dawn simulation? (bulbs screw into the ceiling & it's controlled by a wall swicth).
if not, i'll just get the lm465 & plug a table lamp into it.
thanks.b
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...is there a similar device to the lm465 so that i can have an overhead ceiling light do the dawn simulation? (bulbs screw into the ceiling & it's controlled by a wall swicth).
Actually many / most of the new wall switches have softstart now even though X10 has not either advertised it or acknowledged the fact. To make it even more annoying, they didn't bother to change the part number for the new wall switches or the softstart module. Since I don't have one of the X10 softstart modules yet I have been testing my macros with one of the new wall switches.
Do a forum search for "new switches". You'll have a few hours of reading material. ;)
If X10 can't guaranty you a softstart wall switch, this is where I got mine.
http://myworld.ebay.com/x10-warehouse/
I believe most or all of his stock are the softstart ones.
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while i'm at this & getting great replies from you guys.
for those that are using this as dawn simulation..are you using full spectrum bulbs? or ordinary bulbs? any suggestions on full spectrum bulbs (i need them to fit regular sockets & dim properly) & where i can get them?
i research this myself..but thought i'd throw this out in case there's an expert on this somewhere already.
thanks!
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...for those that are using this as dawn simulation..are you using full spectrum bulbs? or ordinary bulbs? any suggestions on full spectrum bulbs (i need them to fit regular sockets & dim properly) & where i can get them?...
My only research on full spectrum bulbs goes back way too many years to be up to date. 20-30 years or so ago I read a book called "Health and Light" by John Ott. http://www.amazon.com/Health-Light-Effects-Natural-Artificial/dp/0898040981 the author had a lot to say about the importance of natural light. While I don't think they are true "full spectrum bulbs", I use the reveal bulbs for my bedroom.
Another thing to consider is that a bulbs light balance is quoted and based on full brightness. Whether or not the light balance remains constant when dimmed is not specified or guaranteed.
While I have conceded to use florescent lights for my outdoor flood lights, as a general rule I hate CFLs. I consider them to be an environmental time bomb.
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To make it even more annoying, they didn't bother to change the part number for the new wall switches or the softstart module.
I think that is a rather important thing to remember. Most LM465's do not have this feature. They have been making LM465's for at least a decade, and only some of the newest ones, have it. Without a part number change, it is almost impossible to tell without actually plugging one in, and testing it.
However, all LM14A's have this feature, if you can find one.
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The new softStart lamp LM465 Module (http://www.x10.com/promotions/lm465_ed_ss_0317.html) will work as well or better than the old LM14A for what you want to do. The SoftStart lamp LM465 Module was what I wrote my macros to use.
Does think link mean, that X10.com itself is only selling/shipping the new version of the LM465 ?
I thought (worried?) that it was a random "hit or miss" about getting a new or old version of the LM465. :(
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The new softStart lamp LM465 Module (http://www.x10.com/promotions/lm465_ed_ss_0317.html) will work as well or better than the old LM14A for what you want to do. The SoftStart lamp LM465 Module was what I wrote my macros to use.
Does think link mean, that X10.com itself is only selling/shipping the new version of the LM465 ?
I thought (worried?) that it was a random "hit or miss" about getting a new or old version of the LM465. :(
yeah, that's a concern of mine which is why i wanted to confirm which lamp module i needed. soft start & gradual dimming are very important to get this setup right.
i'm not sure if the x10 chat could support can confirm if they are the new ones...but my experience with them is the chat isn't as informative as it should be...if anyone has any insight before i order it'd be appreciated.
i was looking at a canadian site..& under lm465 it says: "For a lamp module with soft start, user selectable on-level and ramp rate, see the Smarthome 2456D3". Smarthome is a totally different system right? should i look into it? i guess it has it's own kit (ie not active home pro)...a little reluctant since x10 seems to be more popular...unless i can find a clearcut step by step guide on building dawn simulation with smarthome parts & software.
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...Does think link mean, that X10.com itself is only selling/shipping the new version of the LM465 ?...
Who knows? They probably have a box of the old ones also. At least with the LM465, if you buy one that is advertised as softstart you can expect to get a softstart one or least have grounds to complain if you don't.
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Smarthome is a totally different system right?
There is INSTEON system, which is conceptionally similar to X10, but yet different. However, SmartHome's xxxxLinc modules are usually compatile with both INSTEON and X10.
I looked at the LampLinc module, 2456D3, you mentioned, and while it can be manually programmed to do some interesting things, including a slow power-on ramp for up to 9 minutes. However, it doesn't appear to be programmable by direct X10 extended commands.
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i'm gonna stick to what works with x10- i have everything explained & ready here for me.
plus, i would like to brighten for longer than 9 minutes. but thanks for looking into it.
i think i'll contact x10 & see if i can specify the newer lm465. thanks!
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thanks peeps! ordered software package that came with lamp module..added a wall switch (can as a 2 pack). So i'll try out hte software instructions when i get it.
i had a funny thought- i thought i'd only need 1 wall switch but the two pack was only $5 more..was thinking about where i'd need one other than my bedroom..& i thought (hypothetically of course)..these things work by RF signals right? since i'm in an apartment..i thought it'd be cool to hack into the nearby elevator & connect my extra wall switch. Would i be able to call the elevator from my apartment? Could i schedule the elevator to come to my floor at a certain time in the morning?
i'd never do it..but it'd be cool. Ah, well..i'll figure something to do with the other wall switch.
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i had a funny thought- i thought i'd only need 1 wall switch but the two pack was only $5 more..was thinking about where i'd need one other than my bedroom..& i thought (hypothetically of course)..these things work by RF signals right? since i'm in an apartment..i thought it'd be cool to hack into the nearby elevator & connect my extra wall switch. Would i be able to call the elevator from my apartment? Could i schedule the elevator to come to my floor at a certain time in the morning?
i'd never do it..but it'd be cool. Ah, well..i'll figure something to do with the other wall switch.
That might be the coolest idea I've heard on this forum. Just make sure to schedule your hack the day after the annual elevator inspection, so you get the most longevity out of it...!
Keep in mind that if the elevator is a few floors down, the RF signal would have a lot of building material to travel through... :)
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yeah, well. like i said..i'd never actaully do it.
well, i was thinking i'd hack into the push button on my floor (which is probably 40 feet away). Just to connect the circuit, as if i was pushing the button. So, it wouldn't matter what floor the elevator was on..i'd have to somehow jam the switch behind the casing for the button in the wall...
again, i'd never do it..but how awesome it would be. :D
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Well, I suppose I was thinking you could install multiple switches inside the interior panel of the elevator, to command it to go to whatever floor you wanted! I'm SURE it can be done, but definitely not plug & play with X10...!
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You guys are being funny...right? :D
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You guys are being funny...right? :D
of course i'm kidding..think i would risk my neck re-wiring the elevator buttons? no way..plus how in the world would i jam a ligth switch into the button compartment...it was just a funny thought.
i'm no electrical engineer..but i figure an elevator button is just closing a circuit & so does a switch.
why would i need to call it to any floor anyways...i'd just want it for my floor so it's there as i'm laeaving my place...
but, it's just a fun thought. i'd never do it.
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OK, but switch won't work, they are made for 120V. I used a "Universal Module" (UM 506) to provide closure across the button contacts. ;D
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ok, got my software & hardware parts..playing around with things. it's pretty cool. i could see how if i had a big house with mulitiple rooms & appliances..this would be really cool.
but, i've only a small apartment & for now..want to get this dawn simulation alarm clock going.
i've been having some issues getting a loop macro working. it seems to start the chain of events but i can't get a continuous brightening as the loop is supposed to. i left a few comments on what's going on in the steven r dawn simulation instructions.
the other thing i'm wondering is whether my modules are actually "soft start". i thought soft start meant you could go directly from off to say..%20. as opposed to %100 first then down to %20. It seems like my lamp module can do that (using the mini controller)..but using AHP- if i set it to %20..it will tell it "ON" then dim to "%20"..which results in full brightness then %20....
does it sound like my lamp module is soft start? i believe it is..but how to make it work that way in AHP.
On the other hand, the wall switches don't seem soft start at all. i can see the difference between my lamp module when i use the mini controller. there's no way to dim it up without going to full %100 first. X10 promised my they were..so i'm going to ask for an exchange.
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the other thing i'm wondering is whether my modules are actually "soft start". i thought soft start meant you could go directly from off to say..%20. as opposed to %100 first then down to %20. It seems like my lamp module can do that (using the mini controller)..but using AHP- if i set it to %20..it will tell it "ON" then dim to "%20"..which results in full brightness then %20....
does it sound like my lamp module is soft start? i believe it is..but how to make it work that way in AHP.
If your LM465 modules are indeed the new "soft start" type, you need to "lie" to AHP, and install them as the LM14A modules. That's because AHP only knows how to control, using the new extended commands, when the LM14A is selected.
Its been a while for me, but if you can't find "LM14A" specifically in AHP, look for "2-way Lamp Module" too.
In macros, make sure you depress (turn dark gray) the "Set Absolute" button on the icon.
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thanks for that. i was playing around with things & it seems like i don't need to trick AHP by labelling the lm465 as something else. it actually will soft start it ok. So that's working for me.
However, the same cannot be said for the WS467 wall switch. X10 has asssured & re-assured me that it's soft start..but it doesn't appear to be (either using ahp or my mini-controller). Anyone know if there's a way to trick ahp into thinking this WS is soft start?
Another issue i'm having is whenever i use macros; the level of brightness is never the same if i'm running a macro with the module off vs when the module is on (any %..even if it's 0%). Why is that? For ex. if i have a macro set to turn light on at %40...it is much dimmer light if it starts from off than when it starts from any on position (even though it's always set at %40).
Any solutions? i know i could adjust the macro..but sometimes i'll want to run it from off..sometimes from an on position. I guess one solution is to never turn my lights off...but i don't want to do that; & it defeats the purporse of getting soft start lights to me...
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thanks for that. i was playing around with things & it seems like i don't need to trick AHP by labelling the lm465 as something else. it actually will soft start it ok. So that's working for me.
You need to install the lamp modules as a "LM14A', and not LM465, not to support "soft start", but to enable/use/support the new direct, absolute, dim level commands. These are the newer extended commands.
AHP supports the LM465 only in the old way, and that's relative dim levels. By that I mean, dim up by 5%, or dim down by 5%. But from what? For the LM465, AHP needs to set it to a known dim level first, and that is at 100%.
AHP supports the LM14A (and if selected as a LM14A, the new LM465 too) the new way, and that's with absolute dim levels. By that I mean, set dim level at, for example, 40%. It doesn't matter what the current dim level is, or if the module is even 'on' at all, the module with go directly to 40% (keeping with the same example).
Another issue i'm having is whenever i use macros; the level of brightness is never the same if i'm running a macro with the module off vs when the module is on (any %..even if it's 0%). Why is that? For ex. if i have a macro set to turn light on at %40...it is much dimmer light if it starts from off than when it starts from any on position (even though it's always set at %40).
That makes sense if you are have only relative dimming available in the macros, and that is because you have them defined to be a LM465 and not a LM14A.
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i see. thanks- i will switch it over.
what about my ws467 wall switch? X10 customer service is convinced that it has "soft start"..so i suspect that means "newer" also? is there a different wall switch model i should use for it as well to trick ahp?
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what about my ws467 wall switch? X10 customer service is convinced that it has "soft start"..so i suspect that means "newer" also? is there a different wall switch model i should use for it as well to trick ahp?
You might need to use the LM14A for the wall switches too. Again, just to be able to use the new extended dim command within AHP.
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tried it...seems to make the light on/off only with no dimming abilities.
edit: now i switched it back to the wall switch & none of my macros are activating it anymore. I hope it's a temporary thing cause i can't figure out why.