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💬General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: HA Dave on February 21, 2009, 01:40:39 PM

Title: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on February 21, 2009, 01:40:39 PM
Occupancy sensing... or knowledge of... if someone (or better who) is in the home has always been complicated at best. Many threads have dedicated to just controlling the lighting in a room based on wether or not a motion sensor could determind if someone was in a room.

The best "person at home" detection I can recall reading about was a parking switch for a car in the garage. But I can't seem to find the thread to link to from here. I also recall an idea of using DS10's connected to a cars ignition system... and some sort of macro.

I recently viewed a YouTube Video about Bill Gate's RFID enabled Home Automation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9738CIiY41k&feature=channel_page). Bill apparently uses RFID tags for Occupancy Sensing and HA occupancy knowledge. Well if that's good enough for Bill... it's likely good enough for me too. Bill Gates and I have a lot in comman. Nether one of us finished college... and we both have low water volume flush toilet's.

Of course... Bill Gates has been more productive than myself... so he can better afford such toys. I am looking for a simple, easy, X10, and/or PC/Software solution to knowing who is home. So the appropriate macro(s) could be run.. based on occupancy.

If a simple... or at least NOT too complicated and expense solution can be found... the benefits could be enormous. As I drive away from home.. the alarm could be automatically turned on, and lights left on... turned off. If I was to forget to close the garage door on my way to work (or wherever)... the home could call my cell phone and let me know... before I even turn off of my street. If everyone is home at bedtime... the alarm could be set automatically. Yet mowing the grass or relaxing on the deck... shouldn't be misinterpreted as anything other than being "at home".

The task is over my head! So I've asked Bill- (of wgjohns.com) (http://www.wgjohns.com/bvc.htm) to help out. But I would really like ANY INPUT... for-all-I-know... someone here has already resolved this problem.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: steven r on February 21, 2009, 02:36:25 PM
...The best "person at home" detection I can recall reading about was a parking switch for a car in the garage. But I can't seem to find the thread to link to from here...
You might of been referring to my post, http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=8304.msg71554#msg71554 (http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=8304.msg71554#msg71554).
That mechanical switch finally failed and I switched a different arrangement that has a pressure switch attached to a plastic tube.
I live alone so detecting my presence is substantially easier than it would be for multiple people.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on February 21, 2009, 02:50:08 PM

You might of been referring to my post, http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=8304.msg71554#msg71554 (http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=8304.msg71554#msg71554).

THATS IT!!! And thank-you steven r. Sorry I didn't remember it was you... or was able to find it. Yes living alone makes it easier... but I really like my wife... and asking her to leave to make for better automation is the very last resort.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: astrothug on February 21, 2009, 03:40:55 PM
I seen something on youtube that had a door mate and a censer on it that would tell the computer someone was at the door and if they had a censer in the shoe that would say the persons name once they came into the house...

very cool...

 
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: DB on February 21, 2009, 07:42:12 PM
I have been looking for some type of logic software as well. Home domination works on xp but I had no success with vista 64. It has the capability of setting modes (at home,away,night etc. ) and rudimentary occupancy sensing. I have never had much success with the flags in AHP to accomplish any type of logic. If you are looking for ideas, it would be nice to see software that works on these modes, that can be disabled or enabled manually or automatically by the software when events occur. Ex Motion sensor 1 tripped outside, the motion sensor 2 tripped inside front door within a certain time frame to indicate you have entered your premises, mode set to "at home" automatically and announced by text to speech with a greeting. Instead of minimal evening lighting occurring at dusk, the system would know you are home and set brighter evening lighting. I downloaded visual basic 2008 express to start working on creating something to accomplish these tasks but I am no programmer. Bill and tuiceman seem to be miles ahead and adding this functionality to their already great programs would be great.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on February 21, 2009, 09:00:45 PM
I have been looking for some type of logic software as well. Home domination works on xp but I had no success with vista 64.

Nothing works with 64 (with the exception.. maybe.. of some games). At some point some time n the future... that has to change.

I have never had much success with the flags in AHP to accomplish any type of logic. If you are looking for ideas, it would be nice to see software that works on these modes, that can be disabled or enabled manually or automatically by the software when events occur.

I am not much of a software basher. We HA buffs are a rare group. We are very lucky that AHP, its software, and the CM15A are here. But I appreciate a sunny day too.

Ex Motion sensor 1 tripped outside, the motion sensor 2 tripped inside front door within a certain time frame to indicate you have entered your premises, mode set to "at home" automatically and announced by text to speech with a greeting. Instead of minimal evening lighting occurring at dusk, the system would know you are home and set brighter evening lighting.

I have also considered a complex set of instructions/macros. But if I created them for me and my circumstances... how would that help you. Or the other way around. I think if we all work at these things together... we all benefit.. together. I really like steven r's idea... maybe I can modifity it for the wifes car.

I downloaded visual basic 2008 express to start working on creating something to accomplish these tasks but I am no programmer. Bill and tuiceman seem to be miles ahead and adding this functionality to their already great programs would be great.

Yes.

I am such a big fan of BVC (http://www.davesdomainonline.com/bvc/bvc.htm).. I almost hate to mention that (it works it way into many of my posts). I am still a newbie with some of Tuicemen's software... but I like alot of what I've seen.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on February 21, 2009, 09:02:49 PM
I seen something on youtube that had a door mate and a censer on it that would tell the computer someone was at the door and if they had a censer in the shoe that would say the persons name once they came into the house...

I am searching for a link to that!
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: BaBaLou. on February 22, 2009, 08:44:53 AM
I can consider myself lucky in this case.

The wife and I have 2 separate garage doors and each has its own set of commands and macros to work accordingly for each of our purpose. The kids have their own key pad entry and have a setup for them when they come home from school and neither my wife or my self might be home at that time. Still don't have the DS7000 working with AHP yet due to the 3.236v issues and still wanting to use the VA12A.

But I do recall the days when going to the gas station and running over those Ding Dong cable strung over the pump area just to let the owner that he has a customer.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on February 22, 2009, 10:06:25 AM
The wife and I have 2 separate garage doors and each has its own set of commands and macros to work accordingly for each of our purpose. ........Still don't have the DS7000 working with AHP yet due to the 3.236v issues

I think steven r really has something with his "car counter" idea. Even if I can only use that to count one of us... since it's just the wife and I... that would be half done. I really do feel and believe that it will be something as simple as car counting. I had found a software called Bluetooth connector (http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=17511.msg96834#msg96834) that could simplify things.

I read a post once... somewhere.. about a guy that constructed a keyholder that he mounted near the entry. The keyholder had mechanical switches that were turned on or off by hanging or removing keys. The weight of the keys triggered a PowerFlash module to send an ON... removing the keys sent an OFF. As family members came and left they hung or retrieved keys from their assigned hook on the holder. Whereas I admire such a simple concept... I can see the WAF plummet... if I was to assume I can assign key parking areas.

....... Still don't have the DS7000 working with AHP yet due to the 3.236v issues

Ditto... although it worked for a while for me... it also crashed. I feel confident X10 will sooner or later get this fixed. AND... I have acquired extra security remotes and a Universal Module... so I can hack a solution if need be.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on March 21, 2009, 02:49:23 PM
I don't want to give the forum members the impression that I am obsessed with this "occupancy sensing project"... even though I am. But, I've been playing with the idea of "car counting" somemore.

I have an idea of using the tiny remotes... like the SlimFire (KR19A). Which when pressed sends the assigned X10 RF signal... but even if the button remains pressed... the signal stops sending after about two seconds. Hacking a KR19A (or KR22A) would allow me to count as many cars as I could ever need to count. Car counting using remotes or even DS10A's isn't my idea alone... or even new.

I think.. I would need to use a 12 volt relay that would cause the ON signal to be sent when the car/truck is started... and then (reversed) so an OFF signal would be sent when the car/truck is turned off. Is there a mechanic here that could ofter any info/advice as to how or where to connect such a device.

I know... counting cars isn't a complete solution to occupancy sensing. But it's a darn good start. Not just for me... but for most people. If the wife's and my car can both be counted (ie a monitored code shows both cars as home) yet no activity shows inside the home... it would be a reasonable assumption that we at outside doing yardwork, walking, or just enjoying the deck. So... "both cars home" (as an AHP macro) could avoid arming the alarm or delay BVC (http://davesdomainonline.com/bvc/bvc.htm) announcements that: mail has arrived, the sump pump was on, the doorbell has rang (and video was recorded).

This is turning out to be a big... and by far.. the most complex project that I have ever attempted. But I think the pay off (as a automation advantage) could be huge.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: steven r on March 21, 2009, 07:06:46 PM
...I would need to use a 12 volt relay that would cause the ON signal to be sent when the car/truck is started... and then (reversed) so an OFF signal would be sent when the car/truck is turned off. Is there a mechanic here that could ofter any info/advice as to how or where to connect such a device....
Well I'm not a mechanic but turning the key to start is a momentary connection. So I'm not sure if tapping the starter line would be a good idea but in theory it would work.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: Knightrider on March 21, 2009, 10:01:54 PM
this will be flakey for now, but a SPDT or better yet DPDT relay connected to the ACC circuit would trip one contact when power was applied, and another when the power is dropped.  The only problem that I foresee is that when you initially turn the key, ACC comes on, but ACC goes off when the starter is engaged.  Therefore, you would have a rapid fire of ON/OFF/ON when you started the car and I'm wondering if X10 is fast enough to process the sequence.

Clear as mud, right?
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on March 21, 2009, 10:57:51 PM
...  I foresee.. when you initially turn the key, ACC comes on, but ACC goes off when the starter is engaged. 

Yes... I can see that... but HADN'T thought of that. I wonder... if there is a circuit that is more associated with a running engine.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: steven r on March 22, 2009, 03:32:05 AM
...if there is a circuit that is more associated with a running engine.
Do your car doors lock when the engine is started?
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on March 22, 2009, 09:05:33 AM
Do your car doors lock when the engine is started?

The newer one does. I also have a small older pickup truck... and it doesn't. But it's OK with me if each vehicle is connected differently. I need to wire up a relay "test device" and do some testing. And maybe do a little searching at the automotive forums.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: raster69273 on March 28, 2009, 03:05:22 PM
What about PHOTO-ELECTRIC switches to "count cars"?
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on March 28, 2009, 07:02:19 PM
What about PHOTO-ELECTRIC switches to "count cars"?

I am not sure how I would do that. Would a switch triggered by light blockage... detect (count) an intruders van... as if it was my pickup truck. Or would a misplaced item in the garage count as a parked car... if it blocked the photoelectric switch. If my wife left her car in the driveway (instead of the garage)... how would it be counted.

Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: BaBaLou. on March 29, 2009, 07:32:58 AM
Your Cell Phone, is it capable of WiFi.
I have a BlackBerry Bold. It is set to connect by WiFi automatically to my Router at home and then the Business and as well at my Parents house.
NOW, how to make the router let X10 know that you are out of range and when you do get back into range.

Hold on, How about hacking an invisible fence kit for dogs, you know the ones that zap them or something when they leave the parameter of the yard.

Well, only an idea  -:) to get more wheels turning.
Seems that is very easy to do around here.


I am trying to make a directional sensor.

Let's me know when I enter an area or leave an area by using the direction the person is moving.
I need to put 2 eagle sensors side by side and restrain the viewing area of the sensor to see only strait out and parallel to each other.
Need to lessen the repeated signals from a room sensor eg Bathroom. :P no need to keep repeating a signal for the period of time you are there. 

 :)+
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: Tuicemen on March 29, 2009, 10:31:27 AM
Quote
I am trying to make a directional sensor.

Let's me know when I enter an area or leave an area by using the direction the person is moving.
I need to put 2 eagle sensors side by side and restrain the viewing area of the sensor to see only strait out and parallel to each other.
Need to lessen the repeated signals from a room sensor eg Bathroom.  no need to keep repeating a signal for the period of time you are there.
 

Very cool Idea BaBaLou. It will open up lots of possibilities!
Even I can think of a few! rofl
Since the sensors don't care how they are mounted you could mount them on their sides with tops facing each other !
Since the field of vision is straight out side to side and down you'd only have to play with spacing between each and wouldn't need to block it's field of view!
 >!
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: BaBaLou. on March 29, 2009, 11:19:27 AM

The whole goal for me to try and get away from the multiple signals it creates, did try it as you have said but the overlapping of signals makes it hopeless and end up with a light that flashes on and off quickly  B:(.

                                  I am already overloaded in RF traffic from other sensors and/or their heartbeats.


But another idea  -:) is going to try and use a Beam of light similar to ones used for Garage door openers safety cutoff, and Hack it into say a Power Flash or Universal module.

                                  That would give me less traffic and hopefully a more efficient response trigger of the light.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on March 29, 2009, 11:46:51 AM
Puck has a macro he created for direction detection on a stairs.   http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=15998.msg87862#msg87862
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on March 30, 2009, 12:10:33 AM
OK... after many hours of hanging around the Home Automation Chat (http://bdshost.com/ac/) asking questions and fishing for ideas. I popped the hood on a SlimFire (KR19A) remote and poked around a bit. By scraping off contact areas on the little board... I was able to short-out the circuit and cause a signal to be sent. (an image is attached)

I selected the KR19A because when a button is pressed it sends the signal for about two seconds... then stops. This should allow me to automate the button pushing using just one relay... and yet NOT flood the airways with RF signals.

The goal is to send an ON signal when a car starts. Then when the car is turned off send an OFF signal. Hence... an OFF signal could only mean the car is home. A relay connected to the car/trucks radio harness... borrowing a little power to operate a relay... should short-out the remote and send the proper signals.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: -Bill- (of wgjohns.com) on March 30, 2009, 01:35:37 AM
I am trying to make a directional sensor.

Let's me know when I enter an area or leave an area by using the direction the person is moving.
I need to put 2 eagle sensors side by side and restrain the viewing area of the sensor to see only strait out and parallel to each other.
Need to lessen the repeated signals from a room sensor eg Bathroom. :P no need to keep repeating a signal for the period of time you are there. 

The whole goal for me to try and get away from the multiple signals it creates, did try it as you have said but the overlapping of signals makes it hopeless and end up with a light that flashes on and off quickly  B:(.

                                  I am already overloaded in RF traffic from other sensors and/or their heartbeats.


But another idea  -:) is going to try and use a Beam of light similar to ones used for Garage door openers safety cutoff, and Hack it into say a Power Flash or Universal module.

                                  That would give me less traffic and hopefully a more efficient response trigger of the light.

 -:)  If you're considering mounting a light source opposite the detector anyway, why not mask of the motion portion of the Eagle Eyes and just use their dusk / dawn sensors?   :'

 >!
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: bitman on March 30, 2009, 09:23:41 AM
OK... after many hours of hanging around the Home Automation Chat (http://bdshost.com/ac/) asking questions and fishing for ideas. I popped the hood on a SlimFire (KR19A) remote and poked around a bit. By scraping off contact areas on the little board... I was able to short-out the circuit and cause a signal to be sent. (an image is attached)

I selected the KR19A because when a button is pressed it sends the signal for about two seconds... then stops. This should allow me to automate the button pushing using just one relay... and yet NOT flood the airways with RF signals.

The goal is to send an ON signal when a car starts. Then when the car is turned off send an OFF signal. Hence... an OFF signal could only mean the car is home. A relay connected to the car/trucks radio harness... borrowing a little power to operate a relay... should short-out the remote and send the proper signals.

You go Dave.
And: I'll be watching you and this thread.  :)+
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on March 30, 2009, 02:09:34 PM
I often create YouTube videos of my projects (http://www.youtube.com/suitmanIM).... this project isn't too different. Except this time I decided to create the video as I experimented. I called the video "Trials, errors and tests". It was a (I think) a humorous glimpse into my modifications and videos.

As the 12 Volt positive connection slid into the negative... a bit of smoke and sparks... ended the video.


 
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: beelocks on March 30, 2009, 07:41:47 PM
Nice to to that I'm not the only one who sets fire to the bench when playing with electricity  rofl

I now tend to attach my little clippy thingies to the opposite edges of a small plastic component box to prevent that kind of thing happening.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: -Bill- (of wgjohns.com) on March 30, 2009, 10:25:53 PM
I often create YouTube videos of my projects (http://www.youtube.com/suitmanIM).... this project isn't too different. Except this time I decided to create the video as I experimented. I call the video "Trials, errors and tests (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cjo_o580g0)". It is a (I think humorous) glimpse into my modifications.

Enjoy. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cjo_o580g0)

Ahh, yes!  Nothing like the smell of burning insulation in the morning!   rofl

Been there, done that, put it out with the T-shirt.   :'
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on April 09, 2009, 02:22:43 PM
Nothing like the smell of burning insulation in the morning! 

I don't mind... delays. But I really dislike failure. I have had no success with attaching something to the car (which would then cause car to report in for home or away). I am now looking at the varied devises for detecting cars (http://www.smarthome.com/7188R/Garage-Parking-Wizard/p.aspx).

steven r had the right idea all along (http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=8304.msg71554#msg71554).

But I don't think I could convince the wife that precise parking (like on a mat) would be beneficial. But if I can configure a parking device to merely detect the parked car.... that could work.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: raster69273 on April 13, 2009, 05:48:34 PM
But if I can configure a parking device to merely detect the parked car.... that could work.
this is where i thought the photo-electric eye would detect the parked car
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on April 13, 2009, 05:58:48 PM
this is where i thought the photo-electric eye would detect the parked car

raster69273 I see your point now! If the photo-electric eye was placed so as to be able to detect if a car was present or not... your idea is the best one yet. Sorry I was a bit slow.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on October 23, 2009, 08:57:13 AM
And now I've followed through with raster69273's idea (and some help from Knightrider). I started a Web Page dedicated to Occupancy Sensing (http://davesdomainonline.com/os/sensing.htm) as I expect this to become a big part of... if not the completion of.. my Voice Controlled Home (http://davesdomainonline.com/bvc/bvc.htm).

Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: jadams77 on October 23, 2009, 11:17:37 AM
I just read through all the threads and am also interested in car counting and occupancy sensing.  I'm thinking about using one of those metal detecting driveway sensors to tell if a car is in the driveway.  Most have NO and NC contacts.  This one's a little pricey but you get the idea.  http://primechimes.net/dwa3.html  I think I'll try using some sort of a metal detector.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: Brian H on October 23, 2009, 12:48:49 PM
Have you looked at any of the Dakota Alert items?
They have some vehicle sensors also.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on October 23, 2009, 01:23:41 PM
This one's a little pricey but you get the idea.  http://primechimes.net/dwa3.html  I think I'll try using some sort of a metal detector.

I had looked at the "probes" (as in your link) myself at one time... because I live on a very busy street. Normal motion sensors seemed to get triggered by the traffic. The only problem I could see with the probes.. is they cost a fortune.

As Brian H posted the Dakota detector are top of the line (if that is what you need) and intergreats well with the X10 PowerFlash Module (to get an X10 signal).

I now use a plain old Driveway Patrol. I had hacked it to trigger a PowerFlash Module... but the signal conflicted with garage door detection. So at this time I just use the chime. What I did to make a motion detector work in my area with all the traffic was point it towards the house.

I used an old "lawn light" to both hide and protect the motion sensor. See attached image below.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: jadams77 on October 23, 2009, 01:29:22 PM
Yes, I have a Dakota sensor at the end of my drive now connected to a powerflash.  It is motion so it picks up dogs, deer, people, anything that moves.  If I want only vehicles, I think I'll need metal detection.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on October 23, 2009, 01:37:31 PM
..... anything that moves.  

Yes.. it's best feature is also it's defect. A probe may be your best solution.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on October 24, 2009, 06:21:11 PM
...The best "person at home" detection I can recall reading about was a parking switch for a car in the garage. But I can't seem to find the thread to link to from here...

You might of been referring to my post, http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=8304.msg71554#msg71554 (http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=8304.msg71554#msg71554).
That mechanical switch finally failed and I switched a different arrangement that has a pressure switch attached to a plastic tube.
I live alone so detecting my presence is substantially easier than it would be for multiple people.

Yes! I am finding that the creation of the macros is a daunting task. It's just my wife and myself... so all I need are the four possible states of Occupancy. Both of us home, no one at home, her home (me gone), me home (her gone). Mix that with my garage door reminder Macro/setup conflicted with my car detection macro/setup... and other minor unexpected problems.

I've been using lamp modules with nightlights in them to test the macro state or status. Sometimes.... I laugh out loud. This HA is a hoot.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: jadams77 on October 25, 2009, 11:29:58 AM
I have been kicking around the idea of using RFID for occupancy snesing.  Here is an interesting web site for RF on the cheap.  http://www.trossenrobotics.com/store/p/5378-Parallax-RFID-Card-Reader-Serial-.aspx
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: Brian H on October 25, 2009, 12:53:55 PM
OH I have one of those RFID Reader Boards. Got mine through Parallax, but it is the same unit.
Only thing is the tag read range is like 3".
Also outputs the raw ID Data in Serial. Guess you could decode it.
I have mine just doing a serial data to a LCD Display to see the data itself.

I also have a VisAccess VXS-5 RFID Reader Kit that is for opening a 12 Volt DC controlled door striker latch. Was part of a Smarthome Insteon Kit. That used the reader to trigger a IOLinc to interface with other Insteon Modules.
It has a pull down to common so it can trigger other things besides a door striker latch.
I believe it also has a 2"-4" read range. Though it doesn't output raw data just an open signal if a known tag is read or a reject LED if the tag was not learned by using the Master Tag and going in to the programming mode.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on October 25, 2009, 01:11:56 PM
I have been kicking around the idea of using RFID for occupancy snesing.  Here is an interesting web site for RF on the cheap.  http://www.trossenrobotics.com/store/p/5378-Parallax-RFID-Card-Reader-Serial-.aspx

OH I have one of those RFID Reader Boards. Got mine through Parallax, but it is the same unit.

I like the RFID's. Ive even seen some that require a little less technical skills for the setup (here at SmartHome (http://www.smarthome.com/7434/Proximity-Access-Control-System-VXS-5/p.aspx)). Makes me wish I had more electronics knowledge. Smarthome also has a Bluetooth entry device (http://www.smarthome.com/70470/ECKey-EK2-Bluetooth-enabled-Virtual-Keypad-Access-Control-System/p.aspx) that can ID a cell phone (up to about 35 feet). I think overlapping systems will just make a setup more foolproof.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: Brian H on October 25, 2009, 01:18:26 PM
Yes that is where I got mine.
Only difference was the Tags where round with a small tab for a keychain. Photo shows square ones.

Since I had the IOLinc Modules I didn't but the whole kit. Just the parts of it that I didn't have; and I think I found a better way than they showed to interface it.  ::)

Tested it with a Powerflash in the low voltage input mode. Worked just fine.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: kevman on October 25, 2009, 05:40:53 PM
Hey all,
I've been away from the forum for a while and was reading this thread and thought what about a ds1o mounted on the car and a larger magnet mounted on the floor where the car pulled into, AHP should be able to tell which ds10 it is whoever parked in a spot, ds10 open your gone -ds10 closed your home. yes?
just a thought.
 
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on October 25, 2009, 06:40:51 PM
I've been away from the forum for a while and was reading this thread and thought what about a ds1o mounted on the car and a larger magnet mounted on the floor where the car pulled into, AHP should be able to tell which ds10 it is whoever parked in a spot, ds10 open your gone -ds10 closed your home. yes?

The DS10A is very doable as far as ID'ing the user to AHP. I use the DS10A powered Key Holder (http://davesdomainonline.com/os/sensing.htm) to ID me by my keys. However it might take one serious magnet on the garage floor to effect the reed of a DS10A on the bottom of the wife's SUV. Although I did play around with trying a 12 volt relay connected through the cars accessory power... I wasn't successful. I have read of a modification of a PalmPad remote that causes a signal when the car is started... and then another different signal when the car is turned off.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: jadams77 on October 26, 2009, 07:55:15 AM
You guys have given me another idea.  Mount an eagle eye motion detector on/in each car with a different code and install the tranceiver in the garage.  When I drive in, I can tell by the code which car it is.  If I can get a strong enough signal, I could open the correct garage door when I pull up.  Will it work?
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on October 26, 2009, 08:38:59 AM
Mount an eagle eye motion detector on/in each car .... I could open the correct garage door when I pull up.  Will it work?

Yes.. that likely could be done... but that doesn't mean it should be done. Garage door openers have special codes.... most are programed with a handshake type protocol (they have to be registered with the receiver). All that is good because it provides good security... as well as push button convenience.

X10 has no coded security. I wouldn't do anything that would put at risk, or reduce the safety and/or security of a family member or myself.

But I really like your idea of hands-free garagedoor opening.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: jadams77 on October 26, 2009, 12:59:33 PM
Good point about the security.  I hadn't thought of that.  I seem to get a lot of false triggers, my doors would probably be going up and down all night.

Thanks
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on October 26, 2009, 01:51:15 PM
I seem to get a lot of false triggers, my doors would probably be going up and down all night.

I've had mixed results with the "eye" sensors myself. I had considered installing an auto-closing setup for my garage door. As mine would sometimes.. somehow.. get left open. I would often find it open at night when I checked the doors.

I instead installed a garage door open reminder macro (http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=14721.msg81860#msg81860). Which I also show in my YouTube Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apZF77tsZlI) (this video has been viewed over 10,000 times).
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: Brian H on October 26, 2009, 07:00:11 PM
I wounder  how long a set of batteries would last. If it kept triggering as you drove down the road.  ;D
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: jadams77 on October 26, 2009, 08:49:45 PM
You could put a voltage regulator on it and run off the car battery.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: Brian H on October 27, 2009, 06:15:24 AM
A voltage regulator may work.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on October 28, 2009, 02:23:14 PM
I am having some real success with my occupancy sensing (http://davesdomainonline.com/os/sensing.htm). In testing now... the HA PC arms the (DS7000) alarm when we are both gone. I have even hacked a security remote... and using a universal module and a series of macros can automatically disarm the alarm on return as well.

What I have quickly (for me) realized is just how macro intensive this is. I have already nearly exhausted my monitored codes (although I still have flags) and nearly doubled my macros. I do have a couple spare/back-up CM15A's... so I do still have options.

Has anyone else found suitable solutions or shortcuts for this?
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: beelocks on October 28, 2009, 08:38:07 PM
Just a quick thought on security...

Dave, I know you've already thought about this, but it's probably worth mentioning to others.

Imagine the scenario... You get mugged and your keys are stolen. Your friendly neighborhood mugger uses your car remote to locate your vehicle and drives it away. He then uses your GPS system (or your car registration if you're low-tech) to locate where you live. On your visor is your garage door opener so he can get at least part way into your house and he knows you're not at home because he mugged you, stole your car and left you stranded at Radio Shark. Your car is equipped with your latest idea in occupancy sensing and thoughtfully disarms your home alarm for your mugger, switches all the important lights on for him and Kate tells him that your wife is not yet home.
How many toys he can load into your car in the time available to him depends on how far from home you got mugged, police response times and how big your vehicle is.

Of course, if you're using your key holder DS10A gadget then your mugger probably wouldn't know to hang the keys up when he gets home, but the idea of a vehicle opening your home completely is pretty scary. I'd rather press a few buttons than have my house emptied.

The above is actually just a scary halloween story and could never possibly happen in real life - unless you were born in London, Paris or New York in which case it's already happened to you. :)
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: Knightrider on October 28, 2009, 09:50:34 PM
I hate to hi-jack this thread, but I'm working on a solution at the knightmare that addresses Beelocks's concerns.

I'm working on installing APC Biopods at my doors to:

A) trigger a door strike
B) disable the alarm
C) keep track of when my kids roll in at night

Bought the biopods about a month ago and sent 5 emails to greg.fornier for the SDK.  Still no reply.

Does anyone out there have the APC Biopod SDK that they can send to me?
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on October 28, 2009, 09:54:03 PM
Dave, I know you've already thought about this, but it's probably worth mentioning to others.

What.. me think about home security.... I grew up with a Dad that was a cop. I live security.

... the idea of a vehicle opening your home completely is pretty scary.

I spent a couple more bucks and got those keychain remotes. It never made sense to me to have a digital key to the house clipped to the visor. But if someone takes my keys... they get my remote too. However just driving into the garage won't disarm the alarm. And leaving the home caused it to automatically arm the alarm.

Sounds like the addition of fingerprint or pushbutton combination door locks might be a good idea.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: beelocks on October 28, 2009, 11:54:37 PM
See, I said you'd already thought of it :)
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on October 29, 2009, 12:01:33 AM
See, I said you'd already thought of it :)

No... the bio or push button combination door locks I hadn't... but am now.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on October 30, 2009, 11:11:43 AM
I just found a great link for affordable L O N G range (40 meter) power RFID devices (perfect for cars). http://cliste.sailwhatcom.com/ (http://cliste.sailwhatcom.com/)
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on November 02, 2009, 10:42:43 PM
I know some people say, they are concerned that X10, or AHP, or MicroSoft will miss or fail to work. Not send a signal, or the signal will be missed, or the computer will freeze. And I have to admit.. it could happen. Actually thinking about it... I would have to admit sooner or later.. something is going to misfire or not fire at all. Precautions will need to be taken.

But [very likely] the odds of electromechanical/software failure... is lower than the odds of human failure. People forget all the time. Or push the wrong button.

I've read stats on industrial automation in the news before. I've always thought that lost of life due to machine failure is much less likely than human failure. It's really unlikely the HA PC will ever drink too much and pass out... fall asleep watching TV... forgetting to lockup.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on November 05, 2009, 06:36:56 PM
I finally think I've found a suitable solution for keeping track of me... while keeping track of my keys at the same time. I modified a micro-switch (one with a stout little arm) as well as a yard sale find picture frame. I now have a Handy place to hang my keys. Which triggers a PowerFlash module and informs my AHP that I am home.
(http://davesdomainonline.com/images/os/kh1.jpg)

This Occupancy Sensing (http://davesdomainonline.com/os/sensing.htm)... has turned into a real project.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: dahur on November 05, 2009, 08:39:58 PM
Dave,
Did you ever get the bugs worked out of your surveillance robot? 

Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on November 05, 2009, 08:54:02 PM
Did you ever get the bugs worked out of your surveillance robot? 

The robot worked out OK. The solar cells kept it charged for weeks at a time. I was able to observe the yard much better than with fixed cameras. I even modified and installed a long range Ninja (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ft9-yxNb47Q). However no deer would venture into the yard when R.E.D. was on duty.. so he never got to chase a deer.

I disassembled R.E.D. for parts... but haven't started his replacement yet.

But what I am working now... is maybe a bit more interesting. My Home Automation Computer can now determend who is or isn't at home.... and react appropriately.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: Don N on November 06, 2009, 04:07:12 PM

Here's is another approach.  I've kind of taken a few comments from this thread (thanks raster69273 and jadams77) and the Toggle Macro thread (thanks wayneaking) to come up with this idea.

There are lots of good ideas and thoughts in this thread.  But none of the ideas really fit or excited me.  I wanted a "solution" utilizing parts that I already had; thus not having to purchase or hack any parts.  So I've been just kind of consciously thinking about it now and then.

Today I read a thread "Toggle Macro" that starting me thinking again about Occupancy Sensing.  Could I use the Macro idea that wayneaking described in this thread and put it to use in determining occupancy.  It seemed so simple.

jadams77 suggested putting a motion sensor on the car to activate Macros for occupancy sensing.  Taking that idea a little further, I thought why not have the motion sensor lay on the garage floor.  When the vehicle left it would activate a Macro and when the vehicle returned it would activate a Marco.  Just like the two Macros that wayneaking described in his "Toggle Macro" thread.  Obviously, the functions inside the Macros would be changed to fit your particular method for dealing with occupancy/non-occupancy.

This is all in theory, but it seems like it would work for detecting occupancy through vehicle status.  And it's simple and doesn't require much hardware.  Of course it wouldn't work if multiple occupants left in the same car or if occupants didn't have a car.  Still working on that part!!!!!




 
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on November 06, 2009, 04:28:41 PM
....I've kind of taken a few comments from this thread (thanks raster69273 and jadams77) and the Toggle Macro thread (thanks wayneaking) to come up with this idea.

I am looking forward to reading your post.. to see how this works out. It sounds promising to me!

That raster69273 sure gets around... he's the one that gave me the photosensor tip (http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=17581.msg99070#msg99070).

If you have a key-holder or key-box and one spare DS10A, or PowerFlash, maybe even a hacked PalmPad or "eye" sensor (I know that violates the "no hack rule"). You might be able fudge around with the odds of who would be home.

I was been thinking about "room tracking" (thanks Bill). I think the computer could accurately guess my whereabouts by which TV is on. I wonder if something like that could be helpful?
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: Don N on November 06, 2009, 05:16:06 PM
I do have away of detecting if both my wife and I (there are only the two of us left in the household) leave in the same vehicle.  I activate a "No One Home" Macro via a wireless wall switch as we exit into the garage.  This turns on exterior cameras and does other stuff when we leave.  And of course, when we return I turn off the "No One Home" Macro via the wireless wall switch.  Typically I don't activate this Macro when only one of us leaves the house.

So both of us leaving in one car is covered for us.  However, Occupancy Sensing using my method (motion sensing and the Toggle Macro) will require more ingenuity when there are household occupants without cars.

As a test, I'll work on putting a motion sensor down underneath my car and setting up the Macros for Occupancy Sensing.  More info to follow.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on November 06, 2009, 05:48:20 PM
I do have away of detecting if both my wife and I (there are only the two of us left in the household) leave in the same vehicle.  I activate a "No One Home" Macro via a wireless wall switch as we exit into the garage. 

I (a similar thread "I read about it here... or a link from here (http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=18895.0)") had read an piece on the Internet  "6 ways of monitoring who is at home (http://www.cocoontech.com/portal/articles/guides/home-automation/53-6-ways-of-monitoring-who-is-at-home)". Where Dan [electron] calls the Status Button, Method #3. Method #6, the Security System might be useful as well.

Wait a minute there was a motion sensor car detector post/link (http://www.cocoontech.com/portal/articles/tutorials/home-automation/5-how-to-check-if-your-car-is-at-home-using-an-x-10-motion-sensor) in there too.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: Don N on November 06, 2009, 06:25:30 PM

...  "6 ways of monitoring who is at home (http://www.cocoontech.com/portal/articles/guides/home-automation/53-6-ways-of-monitoring-who-is-at-home)". Where Dan [electron] calls the Status Button, Method #3. Method #6, the Security System might be useful as well.


Wow, I like Method #3.  All you would have to do is assign each botton to each family member.  When you leave just push your button.  If more than three family members, just install another wireless switch.  Boy, this is the simplest way yet.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on November 06, 2009, 08:55:53 PM
... I activate a "No One Home" Macro via a wireless wall switch as we exit ..This turns on exterior cameras and does other stuff when we leave. 

That is PERFECT example of what a smart home should do for you. I am thinking of monitoring a gate (that I normally don't monitor) when the house detects I am away. If the gate opened a verbal warning would be issued and video recorded and a snapshot image emailed.

... If more than three family members, just install another wireless switch. 

Or if you have a big family velcro a PalmPad to the wall. I have nothing against self-reporting. I just didn't think that my wife would remember to report... and I can't even remember what the question was.....
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on November 09, 2009, 01:10:34 AM
Just a quick thought on security...
Imagine the scenario... You get mugged and your keys are stolen. Your friendly neighborhood mugger uses your car remote to locate your vehicle and drives it away. He then uses your GPS system (or your car registration if you're low-tech) to locate where you live.

Maybe a Secert Knock (lock) (http://www.break.com/index/secret-knock-lock.html) would do the trick. Also see:   http://grathio.com/
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: -Bill- (of wgjohns.com) on November 10, 2009, 01:37:35 AM
Just a quick thought on security...
Imagine the scenario... You get mugged and your keys are stolen. Your friendly neighborhood mugger uses your car remote to locate your vehicle and drives it away. He then uses your GPS system (or your car registration if you're low-tech) to locate where you live.

Maybe a Secert Knock (lock) (http://www.break.com/index/secret-knock-lock.html) would do the trick. Also see:   http://grathio.com/

That's a very cool and imaginative toy! 8)

I was thinking you could attach it to a jukebox or coke machine or such and play "Fonzie" by "thumping" the device with the right rhythm and turning it on / off or grabbing a coke!   -:)
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: aussie mate on November 14, 2009, 02:15:31 AM

I am currently using a wireless key pad at the front door which has a button assigned to each member of the family.
They press the off button to leave the house & press the on button when they come home.

This works well - as long as they do it...

I also are investigating the use of a Bluetooth device that may be a better solution.
www.emxinc.com/pdf-access-controls/blueguard.pdf
Each of the family members who has a bluetooth enabled phone will be detected as soon as they are in range (30 feet).
The system hopefully will be able to detect each person & send a different signal for each one.


Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on November 14, 2009, 11:28:00 AM
I also are investigating the use of a Bluetooth device that may be a better solution.
www.emxinc.com/pdf-access-controls/blueguard.pdf
Each of the family members who has a bluetooth enabled phone will be detected as soon as they are in range (30 feet).
The system hopefully will be able to detect each person & send a different signal for each one.

I think the secure BlueTooth cell phone may be the future. A tad pricey for me yet.. but I do like that idea. There is already one brand of lock that allow remote unlocking via cell phone. I am sure prices will continue to drop... (as will RFID tags).

Now that you capture the occupancy data via the keypad... how are you using the information? What actions or non-actions are taken because of occupancy.... or the lack of it?

I have just added automatic (based on occupancy) daylight monitoring of my yard when we aren't at home. So we aren't distracted by voice warnings or video images taken of us in our sweats while we use the yard... yet it is monitored when we aren't home. See my SARA Web Page (http://davesdomainonline.com/sara/sara.htm).
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: stoney on November 18, 2009, 09:03:11 PM
Jim Lipsit has a great HA system and also successfully used auto sensors.
Check the link below. Notice the alternate use of the X-10 flash module.

http://www.james.lipsit.com/smart_car_sensor.htm
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on November 18, 2009, 10:57:52 PM
Jim Lipsit has a great HA system and also successfully used auto sensors. Check the link below. Notice the alternate use of the X-10 flash module.
http://www.james.lipsit.com/smart_car_sensor.htm

Thanks for sharing stoney!

Yes Jim Lipsit does have a very nice setup. I have seen his video on YouTube before. His link to his car detectors is broken. Although I was able to get to Visonic Home page.... I cant find the sensors he used. It looks like a great solution.

I am not sure there is a one-solution-fits-all device out there. But I have found there are MANY simple easy ways to do this. And... that it IS worth it.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: ITguy on November 19, 2009, 11:45:54 AM
The Visionic products can be found at:

MCT-302 Transmitter   http://www.visonic.com/Products/Wireless-Property-Protection/Door-window-contact-mct-302 (http://www.visonic.com/Products/Wireless-Property-Protection/Door-window-contact-mct-302)

MCR-304 Receiver http://www.visonic.com/Products/Wireless-Property-Protection/Receiver-mcr-304 (http://www.visonic.com/Products/Wireless-Property-Protection/Receiver-mcr-304)

ITguy
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on November 19, 2009, 04:03:18 PM
The Visionic products can be found at:
MCT-302 Transmitter   http://www.visonic.com/Products/Wireless-Property-Protection/Door-window-contact-mct-302 (http://www.visonic.com/Products/Wireless-Property-Protection/Door-window-contact-mct-302)
MCR-304 Receiver http://www.visonic.com/Products/Wireless-Property-Protection/Receiver-mcr-304 (http://www.visonic.com/Products/Wireless-Property-Protection/Receiver-mcr-304)
ITguy

Thank You ITguy!

Getting this info from (Jim Lipsit's Web Site) stoney and yourself are the kinds of group effort that makes this stuff much easier. I really like the visonic solution. I don't park in the garage myself... I'd rather have some bench space... but the wife uses it everynight. I know many X10 users don't have off-street parking available. But those sensors seem to have the range to make all conditions work.

I had originally planned that when both cars showed as gone.. the alarm would automatically set. I was able to accomplish that in macros also.

But I am learning a few things as I try this Occupancy Sensing (http://davesdomainonline.com/os/sensing.htm) stuff out. Like: there are times... when I'd rather not have the auto-alarm. And times when the conditions are NOT met that I do want the alarm on. And... times when the alarm is on... I want the phone to forward calls to my cell phone (or my wife's). And times when I'd rather the answering machine picked up the calls.

I woke up this morning... writing macros in my dreams (no joke). I've decided to break security down into 3 or 4 levels. With the lowest level requiring no effort and being completely automatic. And the highest level requiring using 2 buttons on a SH624. But all levels being simple and natural in execution... with no routines to remember.

I've recently posted some macros (http://davesdomainonline.com/x10/ahpmacro.htm) where I am using both flags and monitored modules to determine Occupancy. I've found it was pretty simple to use ether flag or module status as a condition or even both as an “and” condition.



Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: Tuicemen on January 02, 2010, 10:46:07 AM
 -:) I had a thought to day! rofl
Ebay has some real cheep bluetooth phones and PDAs many under $10. ;)
I got a Blackberry for under $40 (shipping included) this way.
Why not get one for each car (no cell carrier needed) keep the Bluetooth enabled and use the 12volt addapter to keep it powered!
Set a Bluetooth dongle on a USB extention so it can see the phones when the cars are home.
 Use a program (doesn't need be mine) to watch their signals as cantbreak80 does. (uses his GPS) (http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=19346.msg108559#msg108559)
Note:
One draw back if your running wireless cams  you'll have to possibly wire them, or move them, and or move your receivers!
 >!
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on January 02, 2010, 06:01:28 PM
... One draw back if your running wireless cams  you'll have to possibly wire them, or move them, and or move your receivers!

Some HA users... use no cameras at all. Only two of my cameras are wireless.. and one of them is out-of-range of the BT.. and isn't effected. The other wireless camera I will replace with a wired one or simply move its receiver out-of-range. However.. all my cameras are rebroadcast to the living room TV via a video sender/receiver. So I will need to run a few feet of wire. But it's more than worth it.

Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: stoney on January 02, 2010, 09:39:42 PM
OK Dave_x10_L,

You can try this Schlage (Shh + leg) electronic door lock.

Schlage LiNK Wireless Keypad Entry Lever Lock Starter Kit System

It allows for one to "register" various people with their own individual
access codes AND it LOGS their entry(s).

For instance, your housekeeper (if you had one) could be allowed
access during the hours of 9:00 am and 10:00 am IF her access code
was entered correctly.

The link part of the lock system can run / control carious devices in
the house as well like cameras, thermostats and lights.

What else? You can also lock / unlock your house if you're away via your
cell phone or Internet connection.

Now THAT's an occupancy sensor!
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on January 02, 2010, 10:36:46 PM
OK Dave_x10_L,
You can try this Schlage electronic door lock. Schlage LiNK Wireless Keypad Entry Lever Lock What else? You can also lock / unlock your house if you're away via your cell phone or Internet connection.

I'd seen a display about them at the local building supply place... and read up on them. If I remember correctly... it's $15 a month for the use of their servers. I didn't see where I could readily incorporate the Schlage data into my Home Automation PC.

I like the concept... particularity being able to let in service people (remotely unlock). But I hate monthly fees. Does it really require the service fee/server use?
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: stoney on January 03, 2010, 09:47:25 AM
As for incorporating it into / with your HA setup / computer, it works with Z-wave (which also works albeit somewhat limited with X-10).

As with most restricting things, crafty people can and usually will figure out ways to circumvent said restrictions.  :'

Yes, from what I've read, there are people using them as secure, standalone (not requiring subscription), HA enabled door locks.

They are available as a latchable lockset OR a Deadbolt, both of which work with Z-wave systems.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: dbemowsk on January 03, 2010, 09:14:28 PM
Using old cell phones is an idea I hadn't thought of.  Since my wife and I both got new blackberries, we have our old phones (bluetooth capable sprint Katanas) that I could try out.  My only issue there is that one of the reasons we got new phones was because my keypad stopped working on mine.  Odd thing is that I can turn it on with the keypad.  At any rate I could test this with my wife's old phone.

Great thought Tuicemen.

Dan B.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: dave w on January 04, 2010, 10:31:48 AM
Dumb question here: If using an old retired phone, how do you keep the cell phone from affiliating (or trying to affiliate) with the local provider network? Even though the phone has been de-registered from the system, it will continually try to affiliate, won't it? Maybe that isn't a problem since it is powered by the auto lighter cord.  ???

I wonder if there isn't a way to disable the transmitter(?).
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: dbemowsk on January 04, 2010, 11:12:48 AM
Dumb question here: If using an old retired phone, how do you keep the cell phone from affiliating (or trying to affiliate) with the local provider network? Even though the phone has been de-registered from the system, it will continually try to affiliate, won't it? Maybe that isn't a problem since it is powered by the auto lighter cord.  ???

I wonder if there isn't a way to disable the transmitter(?).

The phone's transmitter is MAINLY used when making a call.  Old cell phones can still be used for emergency purposes and do not have to be affiliated with a provider, which means the phone can be on but not connected to a service provider. 

By setting the phone's bluetooth to discovery mode though means that the bluetooth is always available for connection, so when the PC's bluetooth module senses it in range, it will be discovered.  This can all be done without worry of the transmitter at all.  Also, if used with a car power adapter connected at all times, you could get a phone cheap that has a useless battery and power won't be an issue.

Dan B.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on January 09, 2010, 10:41:21 PM
... how do you keep the cell phone from affiliating (or trying to affiliate) with the local provider network? ......  it will continually try to affiliate, won't it? I wonder if there isn't a way to disable the transmitter(?).

Did you get anywhere with that question? I was wondering the same thing... wouldn't a cell phone continue to "check-in" with the nearest cell tower?

Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: dbemowsk on January 10, 2010, 12:58:12 AM
I was wondering the same thing... wouldn't a cell phone continue to "check-in" with the nearest cell tower?

A cell phone, when on, will always "check-in" with the nearest cell tower.  That doesn't mean that it will necessarily do anything though because it is not assigned a phone number per se.  I never tried with a newer phone, but with my old phone from years ago I tried once to make a call with no service assigned to that phone and I got some kind of message telling me that I could make a call with a credit card.  I had heard too that there are places that will take old cell phones and give them to battered women for use in making emergency calls.  So I think you can still call 911 at no charge. 

All that aside, the bluetooth end of things is the only thing we are using when looking at occupancy sensing.  The phone side of it would not be used in any way.

Another thing I thought may work for sensing the car and would still be of practical use are different car bluetooth devices for hands free phone use.  A quick google search got me to this site http://www.driveblue.com/ (http://www.driveblue.com/) which has a number of bluetooth hands free devices available.  I am guessing that BlueWatch would see the bluetooth signal from these devices much like it would see your phone.  The only issue I can see with something like this is it may be a leach on your car battery if powered at all times, but shouldn't suck much more power than an old cell phone on it's charger.

Dan B.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on January 10, 2010, 11:23:34 AM
......... Another thing I thought may work for sensing the car and would still be of practical use are different car bluetooth devices for hands free phone use.  A quick google search got me to this site http://www.driveblue.com/ (http://www.driveblue.com/) which has a number of bluetooth hands free devices available.  I am guessing that BlueWatch would see the bluetooth signal from these devices much like it would see your phone. 

There you go! I had purchased a BT ear piece to use with my dongle (I know the dongle works with it)... does it work with the software Tuicemen?
The only issue I can see with something like this is it may be a leach on your car battery if powered at all times, but shouldn't suck much more power than an old cell phone on it's charger.

I know from my robot RED (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ft9-yxNb47Q) that the drain from these little devices aren't much.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: Tuicemen on January 10, 2010, 11:46:39 AM
The ear piece works with the software but since a ear piece only sends the discovery  for a short time the software sees it as lost once it stops.
The same would apply for the other hands free devices.
How ever using a different Dll for the program and constantly sending a discovery to the headset seems to keep it as seen in test runs.

I still think the best option is a old smart Phone. You could hard wire it and mount it out of sight.
I purchased an old Blackberry 7250 for testing (no phone service) this works well as it is a class 1 bluetooth (better range). With the belt clip I can mount it under the dash (out of sight) easily!

Now I can still make a 911 call with it but it only tries to connect when I place a call. How ever I suspect it would continually look for a tower until it found a signal(a real battery killer with my other Phone).
 >!
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: dbemowsk on January 10, 2010, 12:28:26 PM
How ever I suspect it would continually look for a tower until it found a signal(a real battery killer with my other Phone).

This would not be an issue if you kept the charger connected and on constant power from the car.  If you were really worried about draining the battery in your car, you could set it up to only charge the phone when the car is running.  If you did it that way though you would want to make sure you had a good battery in the phone.  Otherwise the phone may go dead and discovery is lost.  Not to mention if the phone goes dead, you would have to dig it out and turn it on again.

Dan B.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: dave w on January 10, 2010, 05:05:11 PM
Does anyone know if the "Airplane mode" (inhibits receiver, control channel scanning, and probably transmitter in the phone) in newer cell phones also shut down Bluetooth?
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on January 14, 2010, 12:54:36 AM
Does anyone know if the "Airplane mode" (inhibits receiver, control channel scanning, and probably transmitter in the phone) in newer cell phones also shut down Bluetooth?

I'd never even heard of airplane mode.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: dave w on January 14, 2010, 01:02:24 PM
Does anyone know if the "Airplane mode" (inhibits receiver, control channel scanning, and probably transmitter in the phone) in newer cell phones also shut down Bluetooth?

I'd never even heard of airplane mode.
I think it is only within the last year and on higher end phones that I have seen it as a feature. I am pretty certain it shuts down all the RF functions in the phone but still allows playing with pictures, stored MP3 files, PDA use, etc. It probably does have to shut down Bluetooth also.

However I don't know how wide spread knowledge of the feature is. I suspect when rolling down the taxi way and flight attendant tells you turn off and put away your cell phone, a response of "I don't have to, I have it in Airplane Mode",  will get you a quick trip back to talk with the Air Marshal and a turn around to the terminal.  :'
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: Tuicemen on January 14, 2010, 03:01:30 PM
I have Airplane mode on my 3 year old phone. The only calling it allows is 911 all other sending or receiving is disabled this Phone doesn't have Bluetooth or wifi but I would assume that is included as a send receive function ;)
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: Alan V on January 14, 2010, 05:06:56 PM
My understanding is that Airplane mode shuts off all radios in the phone, which includes cellular, and can include BT, and WiFi (if present).  I don't think that this mode has yet been approved for use during a flight.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: steven r on February 01, 2010, 01:46:48 AM
It's called "Standalone Mode" on my phone.
My the ON setting is specifically described, "Turning on Standalone Mode will disable all wireless communications."

So if you're going to use your phone in Airplane/Standalone mode, put your phone in silent mode and don't advertise that it's on. If the person next to you notices, say I've disabled the phone part and I'm just using it as a glorified watch so the child in me doesn't have to keep asking everyone "Are we there yet?". Laugh and see if they care. If anyone in authority notices you, just say, Oops... I had it in airplane mode when I got on the plane and forgot to turn it off and then turn it off.

The TSA has search and seizure rights that in other places would require a search warrant, it's wise not to piss them off.
e.g. They can confiscate laptops and other electronics at their discretion with no time table for return.

BTW... There is no evidence that using a phone on a plane will interfere with the plane.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: dave w on February 01, 2010, 12:04:35 PM
Steve!....have you done this before??    rofl
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: steven r on February 03, 2010, 12:35:49 AM
Steve!....have you done this before??    rofl
Which part? Using standalone mode or the "polite" telling the person next to me to mind their own business?  rofl
Before I bonded with my iTouch, my phone was my only watch as I don't care to strap things around my wrist for that purpose.
...or were you reading between the lines that I might be the kind of person that would turn on their phone just for the heck of it to see if I had any signal. ;)
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: lflorack on February 03, 2010, 07:51:52 AM
Just to throw in my 2 cents regarding flying and airplane mode:

Although airplane modes probably vary by phone model, each of my previous three Blackberry phones, allows the connections for Phone, WiFi (if present) and Bluetooth to be turned on or off collectively or individually.  When I fly I turn them all off when the door is closed at the gate and then turn the phone off completely.  Once in the air, I wait for the pilot's go-ahead for, "approved electronics use" and I turn the phone back on -- with all connections still off -- so I can listen to music, read and respond to email (to be sent once we're back on the ground), task changes, etc and anything else I can use my Blackberry for while in the 'stand-alone' or airplane mode.  Once we're on the ground again, I turn the phone and all connections back on collectively.  Some airlines now allow WiFi connectivity while in the air now.  This is very common and completely approved by the airlines.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: steven r on February 03, 2010, 06:05:19 PM
...Once in the air, I wait for the pilot's go-ahead for, "approved electronics use" and I turn the phone back on -- with all connections still off...
My initial post was somewhat intended to be a tongue-in-creek response as I don't fly often but I would be curious as to what, if any, responses you've encountered using your electronics in airline mode on planes.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: lflorack on February 03, 2010, 08:05:59 PM
...Once in the air, I wait for the pilot's go-ahead for, "approved electronics use" and I turn the phone back on -- with all connections still off...
My initial post was somewhat intended to be a tongue-in-creek response as I don't fly often but I would be curious as to what, if any, responses you've encountered using your electronics in airline mode on planes.

I've never received any reaction at all -- either from the crew or passengers.  The activity I describe is extremely common -- especially (but not exclusively) for business travelers.
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: Tuicemen on October 20, 2012, 02:12:11 PM
I realize this is an old thread and many have found solutions for this using smartphones with WiFi or BTturned on.
However recently I discovered Real Time Location Systems (RTLS)
Wi-Fi RFIDs these are bigger then regular RFIDs but talk to your Wi-Fi network.

Ekahau  (http://www.ekahau.com/) carrys 3 models of Wi-Fi wearbles these have the range of your Wi-Fi network.
Using their software and optional locater beacons you can pinpoint a wear to with in feet.
As for pricing I've been told they range from $50-$150, depending on which model and the quantity purchasing.

However if you don't use their location beacon any program that monitored Wifi connections could be used, even BlueWatch(WiFi) (http://www.angelfire.com/in2/ontkoi/X10AHP/BlueWatch.html).
(sorry couldn't resist the plug) rofl
 >!
 

Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: HA Dave on October 20, 2012, 07:15:16 PM
Any Real Time Location Systems hardware links?
Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: Tuicemen on October 21, 2012, 10:51:23 AM
In order for Real Time Location Systems to work reliably (pinpoint to with in  feet) they use two different communications.
Some use WiFi and IR, others use WiFi and ZBee or WiFi & ultra sound (doubt any of us can do that)
Still others use something other then WiFi in their combinations.

Real Time Location Systems have been in use for a long time mostly used in hospitals.
With pricing coming down this may soon make it's way into our HA systems.
As for links to hardware info:
Ekahau (http://www.ekahau.com/products/real-time-location-system/wi-fi-tags.html)
AeroScout (http://www.aeroscout.com/tags)

Title: Re: Occupancy Sensing/Knowledge
Post by: Tuicemen on October 21, 2012, 05:29:13 PM
I've been thinking about this a lot today and searching I found a RTSL system that uses WiFi and Blue Tooth.
There should be a way to turn BlueWatch into a RTLS using a Smartphone with the Wi-Fi and BT radios enabled.
Some devices will stay in discovery mode if left on the charger.
However I've only found a class1 headset that will (so far), and for this to work well the device would need to be class2(short range).
Even better would be class3 devices as their range is about 3 feet

I"d like the help from the community on this one.
Can anyone confirm a class 2 or 3 BT device that stays in discovery mode while on a charger