X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Topic started by: c0b4lt on May 24, 2009, 03:54:02 PM
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Currently in our home we have lamps plugged in to receptacles. The top of the receptacle is controlled by a standard light switch. the bottom is always on. We would like to change to x10 switches and try to maintain this functionality while adding the possibility of having them activated by outdoor motion sensors at night(deterring prowlers while alerting ourselves). We do not require dimming of these lights. Some lamps have standard incandescent bulbs rated no higher then 75w. Some lamps have I believe haulogens rated no higher then 13w but can be changed back to standard incandescents.
I have searched the forums already for this topic and found a few hits regarding it but don't feel they fully answer the question. Can this be done? And if so which switch or switches would be best?
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You could:
1. Replace your wall switch with a WS17 wall switch. However this wall switch requires a neutral, so you would need a neutral wire in your wall switch box.
or
2. you could replace the receptacle with a SR227 "Super Socket" Receptacle. The top outlet is hot all the time and the bottom outlet is X10 remote controlled.
or
3. You could put the "Socket Rocket", screw in lamp module in your lights.
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ok I'm trying to find the ws17 you mention but not having any luck. I even checked here http://www.x10.com/x10directory.html did you mean a different model?
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Ok I am an electrician so I'll try to make you inderstand the electrical part of it. Currently your lamp does not care if it is plugged into an x10 outlet or controlled by an x10 switch. Your switch now just turns half the receptacle on which is a very common practice and is used in lieu of a ceiling fixture to meet code requirements. So to answer your question you can do what the previous guy said and that is 1) change the receptacle to a super socket outlet module model #sr227. If you go this route you will no longer need the wall switch since you can control it through your remotes or AHP. Personally I would not do this because you will have a wall switch doing nothing. 2) the socket module you scre into th elamp I don't like because you have to leave the switch on all the time and you run the risk of somebody turning it off accidently and it won't turn on when your timer times out or your macro starts. So my thing would be to change your wall switch from your standaed toggle switch to an x10 device. Now this is where you have to make a decsion. If you plan on putting just a lamp on this outlet then you can go with a dimmer type module such as the WS12A but you can only use lamps on this because if you plan on plugging in a christmas tree in this outlet or anything other than that lamp you could damage the equipment. If this outlet is a dual purpose such as lamp then around christmas time I would use the XPS3-IW basically the same concept without the dimming feature and it is just a contact closure so it's either on or off. I hope this helpsand if your looking for devices check ebay they have 3pk specials and you can find them cheaper there.
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....XPS3-IW basically the same concept without the dimming feature and it is just a contact closure so it's either on or off. .....
the outlets aren't even dual purpose but this is exactly what i want. just on/off. that's all it is now and that's all we need it to be. now for what i hope to be my final question. the Neutral connection.... is this the same as the Ground wire or is this actually a different wire?
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the Neutral connection.... is this the same as the Ground wire or is this actually a different wire?
It's different.
Black = Hot
White = Neutral
Green or bare = Ground
At least, that is how it should be wired.
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awesome thanks for the info. Ill be sure to have a look, or rather have someone else, at my switches first to make sure they have all the required connections already available for me before I go shopping. ;D
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Keep in mind that you do not want a dimming switch, X10 or not, to control an outlet. I addition to not being safe, I believe it is against code.
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Keep in mind that you do not want a dimming switch, X10 or not, to control an outlet. I addition to not being safe, I believe it is against code.
You beat me to it. Yes, you only want use a relay switch to control an outlet.
While the outlet may be used only for a light now, you can't be certain someone won't plug another load into it in the future. That is why the NEC forbids using a dimmer switch to control an outlet.
Jeff
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I believe the switch mentioned is the Retail Version [Blister pack] RWS17A; that is the WS12A we mostly know it by.
The RWS17A is a dimmer type.
The RWS18A is the relay type. WS13A is what we may know it as.
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Well as I agree with the others the dimmer switch is not the best way to go for this since you can put other things into the receptacle.....but if it was me and I know the codes so if i was to sell the house I would change it..also the WS12A requires no nuetral.....But like the others not the best idea someone can plug other items in that receptacle ie vacuum, radio, etc.......But for me I would do it because I wouldn't plug in anything other than the lamp...no danger other than ruining your equipment if plugged into it....if you want it to dim then use the socket rocket lamp module and leave the lamp in the on position all the time you could even plug it into the outlet thats hot all the time....
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....We do not require dimming of these lights.....
but thanks for the info anyway :)
slightly unrelated question about the ms16a .... has anyone ever used rechargeable alkaline batteries with them before? whats the typical battery life?
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No dimming required i'd use the XPS3-IW ........Never tried rechargables in my motion.....would love to hear the results.
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ok I'm trying to find the ws17 you mention but not having any luck. I even checked here http://www.x10.com/x10directory.html did you mean a different model?
Yes, I meant WS13A. I have one or two spastic neurons that keep giving me trouble. Sorry, but it sounds like you have everything worked out
Brian corrected the wrong model number later in the thread. Thanks Brian!
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FYI: from the National Electrical Code 404.14(E): Dimmer Switches. General-use dimmer switches shall be used only to control permanently installed luminaries (lighting fixtures) unless listed for the control of other loads and installed accordingly.
Jeff
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Yes Jeff I know the code ;) I have active liscences with the NEC and CEC (City of Chicago Electic Code) and ths is to protect equipment not people. You ohysically can do this with out harmiong people and I would in no way put anyone in harms way. There is a way around that code and it is this if you change the outlet to a special purpose outlet example twist lock or special prong settings and change the lamp cord to match so regular electric device wont fit into that receptacle then you are in business. I would not perform the work of dimming a regular outlet in a customers home but I would do it in my home because I know what I'm doing nd wouldn't trust anyone to follow my instructions. Same goes with generators you can backfeed your panel with a two pole breaker from a portable generator but you must turn the main off in an outage or you run the risk of sending power to the utility pole this is highly against code but it works as long as you follow the directions. I'm pretty sure the Capacitor mod breaks all the codes in every state for coupling. Lots of mods here are not UL listed in which if you perform a modification of a device and something happens technically your insurance won't have to pay for it if they found out.....Basically what I'm saying All you guys are very knowledgable people keep up the good work!!!!! but don't downgrade my ability to understand the concept of basic electricity and pull out codes that were intended for the safety of equipment and not people.
Ricky
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Oh I forgot that code was implemented in the 2002 NEC code change and before 2002 you could use a dimmer switch. Not every city/town follows the most up to date code so if your town follows NEC 1999 your ok, but most now do follow 2002 FYI
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more unrelated questions ;D
is there a limit of how many ms16a's can interact with a single RR501?
also I saw information about using an XPCP or XPCR for coupling both phases in an electrical panel to reduce the possibility of x10 commands not reaching devices such as an chime. We have three(3) buildings on our property. They are our House, Building A, and Building B. The way they are wired up for electricity is the meter connection is to the House and then there is a line that's ran from the circuit breaker in the House to another one in Building A then from there to yet another one in Building B. so its like this:
House ===> Building A ===> Building B
Dont ask me why it is like that it just is lol.
My question is if i put the transceiver in the House is there a potential for a chime in Building B to not receive x10 commands? if so will adding either an XPCP or XPCR help? and in which electrical panels would I install one in or would one need to be in all three(3)?
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Well I am no expert when it comes to questions like this so I'm pretty sure Steven or Jeff can help out a lot more but I would probably put the transceiver in Building B since it is in the middle of the three but I am not sure as to if the signal gets past in all directions or if it must start at the beginning of the service. Not sure if it signal like this A<-----B----->C Would be nice also distance is a key part in all of this.
Ricky
Jeff I hope I didn't offend youin my last post!!! >!
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is there a limit of how many ms16a's can interact with a single RR501?
The way they are wired up for electricity is the meter connection is to the House and then there is a line that's ran from the circuit breaker in the House to another one in Building A then from there to yet another one in Building B. so its like this:
House ===> Building A ===> Building B
My question is if i put the transceiver in the House is there a potential for a chime in Building B to not receive x10 commands? if so will adding either an XPCP or XPCR help? and in which electrical panels would I install one in or would one need to be in all three(3)?
1. The RR501 can only transceive one house code, so assuming each of your MS16As use a separate Unit Code, then you would be limited to 16.
2. Yes, you may have both distance problems for the RF transmission, distance problems for the PLC transmission, and phase coupling issues.
From your description my guess is both your buildings are on the same phase (you said they are fed by one breaker - I am assuming it is not a 220V breaker) How far are they apart?
One suggestion would be a repeater at the house, and my recommendation would be for the flame thrower "XTB IIR" which cranks out more signal than the ACT 234 (another favorite of mine) and RR501As (and only RR501s since they are polite) at the house and in each building. A lower cost alternative would be to stick a Boosterlinc (Smarthome.com) midway in building A and hope for the best.
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from the House to Building A is maybe 40 feet and from Building A to Building B is 60-70 feet if even that much. And I'm going to assume there's a 220V connection from the House to Building A since there is a 220V Air Compressor in Building A.
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Does building B have a 2pole breaker and do these builings have their own circuit panel...if they do then most likely they have both phases in them....I'm assuming from the house to building A there might be either a 2pole 60amp or 100amp going to another panel which is called a sub panel and from building A to building B their might be a 2pole breaker probably a 60 or 50amp going to a a subpanel in building B....this might help the X10 experts on this forum if you can verify th epower in the buildings...If there are circuit panels in each building most likely they have both phases which is a 4 wire system Which is 2Hots a neutral and a ground
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both buildings have their own panel in each. Though atm i'm not sure if there are 2 pole 60 or 100 amp breakers feeding each from the preceding panel. i just know the service starts in the panel in our house and goes to building a's panel then from there to building b's panel.
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cob4lt
This is getting too complicated. Let me try and describe the picture I have..
You have 220V going from one (double) breaker in your house to the two buildings. Verified by the fact you have a 220V compressor in building B and apparently no other power source at building B. ... so you have 220V (i.e both phases ) present in building A also. You have a distance for PLC to cover of 100 feet minimum, and you will want the the PLC signal to get to both phases, since you are putting the chime in building B and don't know which phase the RR501 in the house is on.
So I still think a good repeater is needed. Either an XTB IIR or the ACT 234. I don't recommend the X10 repeater...I have had two of them and had trouble with both. The XTB IIR will provide the strongest PLC signal (sorry Phil K).
Whether you need multiple RR501s isn't clear from your OP description. If you are going to have motion detectors spanning the entire 100 feet, you will need multiple RR501s. The motion detectors range (and Palm Pad / slim line switch range) isn't that good (20 to 30 feet is fairly typical). If you only want to detect motion in the house and ring a chime in building B, then one RR501 at the house should do it.
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I think your on the right track Dave with his power situation he said he has circuit panels in each of the buildings...
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Just for the record, the RR501 can use all Housecodes from A to P and Unit codes 1 and 9. Because of that, you could use 2 RR501s in the same room, both on Housecode A, one on Unit code 1 and the other on Unit code 9. It's very flexible.
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well i finally got the parts i had ordered in and did some testing. so far it appears everything is on the same phase. i have been able to successfully place the transceiver in Building A and a chime in both the House and Building B and activate them with the manual house/on button on one of our ms16a's. the only problem I've noticed so far is after about 84' the transceiver in Building A no longer receives the RF transmissions from the ms16a i was using for testing. so looks like at the moment i just need 1-2 more transceivers and I should be good to go. I haven't tested the switches yet. I'm waiting for an electrician friend to come install them over the weekend.
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Good Job