X10 Community Forum
💬General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: dbemowsk on May 01, 2010, 10:03:51 AM
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I am looking at getting a rain8 controller for my sprinkler system. I am wondering what advantages there are in the X10 world with the 2 way module vs the 1 way module? Has anyone wired in a rain sensor to a rain8 system? I have a rain sensor on my current setup, but it is a normally closed switch that I have wired in to break the common connection to the system. I am wondering if I would want to wire it to a powerflash module for the X10 setup.
I see there are other systems out there also, such as the IrrMaster systems, does anyone know anything about these? Are they better, worse, or equal to the rain8 systems?
Anyone that has an x10 sprinkler system setup that can give advice would be appreciated.
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I'm planning on getting the Rain8II, that way you can verify it is actually off when you send an off command, This probably helps to make sure the yard doesn't flood.
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I tried looking for information on the IrrMaster and could not find much. I believe it is from RCI Automation but that is all I could find. Other than sales sites with no manuals links and their home page. Still no manuals showing.
http://www.rciautomation.com/index.htm
Two way does have the advantage of being sent a Status Request for its present state of on or off.
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I am looking at getting a rain8 controller for my sprinkler system. I am wondering what advantages there are in the X10 world with the 2 way module vs the 1 way module? Has anyone wired in a rain sensor to a rain8 system? I have a rain sensor on my current setup, but it is a normally closed switch that I have wired in to break the common connection to the system. I am wondering if I would want to wire it to a powerflash module for the X10 setup.
I see there are other systems out there also, such as the IrrMaster systems, does anyone know anything about these? Are they better, worse, or equal to the rain8 systems?
Anyone that has an x10 sprinkler system setup that can give advice would be appreciated.
One consideration for deciding on a 2-way versus 1-way module is whether your software includes the capability for obtaining the status information from a 2-way module and acting on it. Without that capability the additional cost for a 2-way module is just wasted money.
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The 1 way has a pump relay setup, where the 2 way requires you to turn an additional zone on to run a pump. Documentation says the 2 way has a pump feature, but in my experience it doesn't. You have to turn the zone on and an addition zone hooked to the pump relay at the same time. If this is important to you, it was to me and the docs and the salesman were wrong.
Also the 1 way can run only 1 zone at a time, the 2 way can run them all if you want at the same time for example.
They both have run away protection that you configure, after a user set amount of time in minutes they will shut off even if they don't receive an off signal from the software.
Hope it helps.
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Thank you for the information on the differences between the 1 and 2 way Rain8 modules.
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One consideration for deciding on a 2-way versus 1-way module is whether your software includes the capability for obtaining the status information from a 2-way module and acting on it. Without that capability the additional cost for a 2-way module is just wasted money.
Well, I am using AHP which I would think has the ability to deal with the status from a macro.
The 1 way has a pump relay setup, where the 2 way requires you to turn an additional zone on to run a pump. Documentation says the 2 way has a pump feature, but in my experience it doesn't. You have to turn the zone on and an addition zone hooked to the pump relay at the same time. If this is important to you, it was to me and the docs and the salesman were wrong.
Also the 1 way can run only 1 zone at a time, the 2 way can run them all if you want at the same time for example.
I do have a pump start relay on my setup. It is good to know that I would have to configure a separate zone for the pump relay on the 2 way system. I only have 4 zones, but someone that has 8 zones would be out of luck since one zone would need to be configured for the pump relay.
As for running more than one zone at a time, my setup will not let me do that just because of the size of my pump. If I turn on more than one zone at a time, the water pressure will not be high enough to run all the sprinklers in the multiple zones efficiently.
I am still a little confused on how you set the time for each zone for the runaway protection since it does not look like either unit has any kind of configuration display and controls to set it.
Thanks to everyone for the information.
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To program the unit you have to hook it to a serial port on your computer, serial cable is included, download the latest management software for your type of unit and configure it. Pretty simple.
If memory serves me right, the 8th zone becomes a pump relay zone on the 1 way...so if you need to start a pump you only have 7 sprinkler zones. There is no seperate relay connection.
The one-way unit (software) lets you check a box on each zone you want the pump to come on for.
The 2-way does not have this check box feature for each zone, you merely turn two zones on at once, sprinkler 1-7 and pump 8.
I installed an anti-rust system on mine that requires a chemical mixture to be pumped into the line, I set macros to turn on a zone then the pump, turn off the pump then the zone...repeat this procedure for a whole watering cycle because the pump zone will shut off after the runaway time setting. The runaway time is global for each zone, it cannot be set individually for each zone.
Hope this helps, theres alot of unaswered questions when looking to buy one of these and the reps really cannot answer these technical questions accurately.
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One consideration for deciding on a 2-way versus 1-way module is whether your software includes the capability for obtaining the status information from a 2-way module and acting on it. Without that capability the additional cost for a 2-way module is just wasted money.
Well, I am using AHP which I would think has the ability to deal with the status from a macro.
I'm not so sure. Better check with something like a RR501 Transceiver module (which responds to a status_request on units 1 or 9) before committing.
When it was first introduced the CM15A did not have firmware support for the status_request command in a _downloaded_ macro. This was reported to the X10 Product Engineer at the time but I don't know if this support was ever added.
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I don't think it was ever done. It's not in the basic macros AHP can generate and not having Smart Macros, I don't know if it can produce such a macro.
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My cm15 shows whether the zone is on or off (2-way), I just send the rain8 a 2-way module signal on|off and AHP shows the status, even when started from a macro.
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My cm15 shows whether the zone is on or off (2-way), I just send the rain8 a 2-way module signal on|off and AHP shows the status, even when started from a macro.
AHP will normally display an On/Off status after sending the signal, even with a 1-way module (or no module). According to the WGL website, the computer interface must first send a Status_Request before the 2-way Rain8 will respond with its status, to wit:
"With the 2-way version, you can determine which irrigation zones are on and which are off. Designed for use with X10-compatible computer interfaces and other devices that can generate the X10 Status Request command. In addition to giving you the power to poll irrigation zones to determine their on/off status, it also allows your computer send a command to the module then check to see if the command was carried out. If not, the computer can automatically send the command again."
If the above is obsolete information and the Rain8 now automatically sends back its current state when it receives an On or Off, then the AHP Monitor window should show a received X10 signal immediately after showing the sent On/Off signal.
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Does Heyu have any mechanisms for automatically polling devices of a certain type at a specified interval?
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Does Heyu have any mechanisms for automatically polling devices of a certain type at a specified interval?
For periodic polling you could either set a crontab or configure a recurring timeout script.
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I want to thank everyone who provided input for this thread.
With the Rain8 systems, I am seeing some options that the one way controller has that the two way doesn't. I am also seeing some limitations that both of them have such as no display for local configuration. Instead you are required to connect the unit to a serial port for configuration. With all of this information, I think I am going to opt out of going with the rain8 system.
I do have an electronics background and have done some work with micro-controllers (PICs). I am thinking of designing my own sprinkler controller and incorporate the best of all options. Below are the options that I propose to incorporate in the unit.
1. 8 switched zones with 24 volt AC output for valve control. Each zone will be controlled by the micro controller and can be set active or inactive. The user should be able to store a name for each zone with a maximum of 16 characters. This zone name will be displayed whenever a zone is actively running.
2. 1 master valve/pump start control line with 24 volt AC control. The master control line will be controlled by the micro controller and can be set to activate whenever a zone is turned on, or used as an additional zone.
3. 1 rain sensor input. The rain sensor will connect to one of the micro controllers IO ports and be able to be configured to use either normally open or normally closed rain sensor switches.
4. Each zone can be assigned an X10 address allowing the user to manually control each valve through their home automation control software such as ActiveHome Pro, Heyu, or other such software. The X10 control for this would be provided from a TW523 two way powerline interface.
5. Each zone can have a maximum runtime set as a fail safe so that in the event that an X10 off command is not received, the zone will shut off automatically if the max runtime is reached.
6. The controller will have a built in programmable real time clock giving the user the ability to program a set schedule for up to 4 zone cycles. This will be an automatic mode that will allow the unit to run stand alone without the need for Home automation software.
7. The user should also have the ability to set basic schedule parameters such as maximum zone duration and the number of sequence repeats up to 4. For example, a 4 zone setup with a max zone duration of 15 minutes and a repeat of 3 would cycle each of the 4 active zones for 15 minutes each and then repeat this 2 more times.
8. The user should also have the ability to set advanced parameters allowing for individual zone runtime durations and an optional pause time between the start of the next zone.
9. In automatic mode, each zone that has an X10 address assigned will send on off signals as each zone is turned on or off to update the users home automation software setup.
10. The system will have a 4x20 LCD screen with 4 buttons for programming and data display.
If anyone can think of any other useful options that I may have missed in the above outline, feel free to chime in.
For somewhat rapid development of this I have a couple old OOPIC micro-controller boards laying around doing nothing that should be able to get me a functioning unit with not too much effort. I have already ordered a battery backed real time clock module that will provide the timing control. The hardest part will be the programming.
Again, many thanks to everyone for their input on this topic.
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dbemowsk:
Suggestions for additional features:
1. Don't turn your nose up at optionally programming the unit via an RS232 (or LAN) port. Once you have a relatively complex irrigation schedule worked out, downloading it (or reading it from a file), making changes to it, and re-uploading the whole thing is easier and less prone to error. Pushing buttons on an LED console sounds cool but gets old pretty quickly for complex schedules.
2. All programmable parameters stored in non-volatile memory.
3. Option to limit the number of zones that are simultaneously "On" (for water pressure, pump, or 24V transformer limitations).
4. Support for the X10 status_request command so the state of a zone can be independently determined at any time.
5. Option for the 2-way feedback to be either On/Off for simple-minded software like AHP or Status_On/Status_Off for more advanced software.
6. Ability to disable the programmed schedule by X10 command (similar to disabling by the rain gauge).
7. Ability to interrupt an active irrigation cycle at any time by X10 command.
8. Ability to restart the irrigation cycle at any zone at any time by X10 command.
9. Some sort of feedback signal when the clock battery is low (or dead) unless it's a rechargeable battery kept charged by the 24V.
10. Ability to connect slave units for more zones. (Tip: Keep the pump control simple - don't attempt dual functionality as an additional zone.)
11. Mechanical ability to easily disconnect from wiring and bring unit to another location for programming. (E.g., I would have to install the unit in my crawl space, but don't want to spend a lot of time under there programming the unit.)
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If anyone can think of any other useful options that I may have missed in the above outline, feel free to chime in.
I don't like the idea of having to plug in both a transformer and a TW523.
The current rainbird timer I have is all enclosed in a nice case that is mounted in the garage just above the light switch and is hard wired with romex cables coming out of the nearest receptacle through some conduit.
I haven't removed the timer to look behind it in the box, but maybe there is a hidden receptacle and 24vac transformer behind it that I'm not seeing.
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If anyone can think of any other useful options that I may have missed in the above outline, feel free to chime in.
I don't like the idea of having to plug in both a transformer and a TW523.
The current rainbird timer I have is all enclosed in a nice case that is mounted in the garage just above the light switch and is hard wired with romex cables coming out of the nearest receptacle through some conduit.
I haven't removed the timer to look behind it in the box, but maybe there is a hidden receptacle and 24vac transformer behind it that I'm not seeing.
There has got to be a 24V transformer in there somewhere - you can't run irrigation valves on 120V. It's possible but unlikely the transformer is built into the timer box.
I suspect Rainbird would have a hard time selling timers which legally require a licensed electrician to install or replace.
Let us know what you find out when you remove the cover from the timer box.
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Charles is correct. All the irrigation valves that I have seen run off of a 24 volt AC transformer. The rain8 units run from a 24 volt AC transformer and a TW523. I bet if you put a volt meter on your valve outputs when your system is on that you will see 24 volts AC. Your unit must have a built in transformer.
What model is your controller?
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What model is your controller?
I can't find one, it just says Rainbird EZ
(http://www.rainbird.com/images/products/diy/timers/EZ-1D_sm.jpg)
but the instructions on the rainbird website show a built in transformer
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Yes I also saw the Manual on the Rainbird site for the EZ1D.
It does have a power transformer in it.
I also noticed it came with a 220 Volt transformer. So you may want to check what line voltage is running the system.
It also shows a dual secondary transformer. Both a 9.5 and 24.5 volt AC to the control board.
On the board the top three connections on the terminal block are the transformer inputs. Maybe you can follow the wires back to the transformer.
The instructions are not to clear but it looks like the transformer, AC wiring and terminals for the valves are on the back of the control panel. It may rotate open or snap open for access.
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(http://i39.tinypic.com/v7b39x.jpg)