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🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Topic started by: BoyntonStu on July 28, 2010, 11:11:38 AM

Title: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: BoyntonStu on July 28, 2010, 11:11:38 AM
I am setting up a system that cannot tolerate battery failure.

Everything is inside the house not exposed to rain etc.

I want to control a single appliance with a countdown timer.

I will use the TM752 transceiver.

If any of multiple MS10 type motion sensors detect movement, I want the AM466 to turn on and be on for a set time.

The system must not fail due to a dead battery.

I am thinking of using rechargeable Lithium batteries in the MS10's and wiring them to a 3 volt battery eliminator.

I may have to add a resistor to prevent overcharging.

Ideas, suggestions?
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: Puck on July 28, 2010, 12:54:40 PM
I will use the TM752 transceiver.

If any of multiple MS10 type motion sensors detect movement, I want the AM466 to turn on and be on for a set time.

FYI: The MS10A will not work with a TM752(TM751??) transceiver. You may want to use the standard type that sends an X10 signal.

Quote
I want to control a single appliance with a countdown timer.

Are you using software? The equipment you listed will not provide a timer. The standard X10 motion sensors will send an off signal after a certain time of no motion.
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: dave w on July 28, 2010, 01:35:29 PM
I am setting up a system that cannot tolerate battery failure.

The system must not fail due to a dead battery.

I am thinking of using rechargeable Lithium batteries in the MS10's and wiring them to a 3 volt battery eliminator.

Ideas, suggestions?

I use a 3V DC wall wart to float two NiCad batteries in a X10 xxxxEye motion detector. This works well.
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/DCTX-31/3VDC-100MA-WALL-TRANSFORMER//1.html

I would not use Lithiums since they are much more critical of charging parameters and tend to explode at small provocation. I have had two CR123's explode in the charger for no good reason.

However I seriously question the use of X10 and your statement of "The system must not fail due to due to a dead battery".

Can the system tolerate missing a movement signal from a motion detector, or missing an ON or OFF signal to the Appliance Module?

X10 control and "must not fail" are mutually exclusive statements.
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: JeffVolp on July 28, 2010, 02:56:09 PM
X10 control and "must not fail" are mutually exclusive statements.

That was my thought exactly when I read the first post earlier today.  Even though our reliability here is very close to 100%, I would not use X10 for a function that absolutely has to work.  However, I am coming from the world of designing high-reliability systems for military and spacecraft applications, so my idea of reliability may not be the same as someone familiar with commercial devices.

For highest reliability, a hardwired alarm system is probably the best.

Jeff
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: BoyntonStu on July 28, 2010, 03:03:30 PM
I am setting up a system that cannot tolerate battery failure.

The system must not fail due to a dead battery.

I am thinking of using rechargeable Lithium batteries in the MS10's and wiring them to a 3 volt battery eliminator.

Ideas, suggestions?

I use a 3V DC wall wart to float two NiCad batteries in a X10 xxxxEye motion detector. This works well.
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/DCTX-31/3VDC-100MA-WALL-TRANSFORMER//1.html

I would not use Lithiums since they are much more critical of charging parameters and tend to explode at small provocation. I have had two CR123's explode in the charger for no good reason.

However I seriously question the use of X10 and your statement of "The system must not fail due to due to a dead battery".

Can the system tolerate missing a movement signal from a motion detector, or missing an ON or OFF signal to the Appliance Module?

X10 control and "must not fail" are mutually exclusive statements.

Thanks,

I am slowly gaining ground.

First, I asked X10 if the MS10 was compatible with the TM751 receiver.

They (X10 chat) said yes.

Their statement contradicts;

"FYI: The MS10A will not work with a TM752(TM751??) transceiver."

Do I need to use an MS16a instead of an MS10a?

What I need is a timed appliance that is turned on when the transceiver gets an input.

As long as there is a signal from a motion detector, the appliance is on.

BTW Apparently a single appliance may be directly plugged into the TM751 thus eliminating the need for an AM466.

When the receiver does not see an input signal, a timer counts down to zero and the appliance is turned off.

Please advise.



Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: Brian H on July 28, 2010, 03:36:27 PM
Motion sensors don't send a constant On signal.
They send an On signal then if there is no additional motion detected. It times out and sends an Off.
Continued motion will send additional Ons and reset the timeout counter.
http://kbase.x10.com/wiki/Comparison_of_All_Motion_Sensors

From the chart you can see that some are fixed and some are adjustable..
If more than one see motion each would send an On but if all that triggered didn't continue to see motion one would eventually time out and send an Off.
You may need something with intelligence to get better control over the timers in a motion sensor.

The TM751 is hard wired to Unit Code 1 and you pick the House Code on the dial. Also it has no power line receiver in it so you could not turn it On or Off by another controller sending power line signals.

I can say my system is almost 100% reliable, but maybe 1 or 2 times a year. I have one under counter light that misses a command.

Also if there is a power interuption to the TM751 or Appliance Module. It will stay in the state it was in at power loss. Like if it was On. It will be on again when the power is restored.
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: BoyntonStu on July 28, 2010, 04:32:38 PM
OK The MS16 has a 0-60 minute analog timer and an incremental 0-255 min digital timer.  Perfect.


Let's assume that there are 2 MS16 sensors and each is set to 30 minute off delay.

Both sensors will be programmed to A1.


The first one senses at 0, the second at +15.

At time +30 will the off pulse from sensor #1 turn off the appliance even though sensor #2 timer is still running?

My guess is yes.

That may be a problem, I'm not certain.

Will they work the TM751 to turn on an appliance?


Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: Brian H on July 28, 2010, 04:41:43 PM
Yes the one started at 0 may turn off the module if no more motion was seen by it even if the +15 sees more motion.

Yes a TM751 can be turned on and off by a motion sensors RF signal. Limitation would be Unit Code has to be 1. House Code on dial of TM751 matches the House Code set in the motion sensor.
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: BoyntonStu on July 28, 2010, 04:58:20 PM
Yes the one started at 0 may turn off the module if no more motion was seen by it even if the +15 sees more motion.

Yes a TM751 can be turned on and off by a motion sensors RF signal. Limitation would be Unit Code has to be 1. House Code on dial of TM751 matches the House Code set in the motion sensor.

Thanks, you are very helpful.

OK I am trying to solve the conflict to keep the appliance operating without interruption until the last sensor times out.

It seems like  gate logic is required.

If sensor #1 sends OFF and IF there were 2 ONs don't turn off until #2 times out.

Is this possible?

Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: dave w on July 28, 2010, 05:47:07 PM
Yes but with home automation conditional  control only

You would need the CM15A computer interface with AHP software and Smart Macro (conditional macro capabilities) plug-in.

I think this "newsletter" (what a laugh) has a "Certified New" CM15 and Active Home Pro software pretty cheap. You would need the Smart Macro plug-in also.
http://www.x10.com/promotions/cm15a_ed_loaded_sd.html#up2
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: dbemowsk on July 28, 2010, 05:56:41 PM
It looks like you are trying to keep this to only a few modules, but with a CM15A ( and ActiveHome Pro with smart macros of course), the motion sensors, and an appliance module, this could be done very easily.  Using smart macros, have the macro handle the timer and the meat of the operation.  You could have the macro set up so that if the first motion sensor sensed motion, it would trigger the timer in the macro.  When the second motion sensor sensed motion, it would reset the timer. If you set it up so the motion sensors triggered the macro, and the macro activated the appliance module, there would be no worry of either motion sensor prematurely shutting off  the appliance module.

Unfortunately going with this solution would mean spending a bit more on the modules and software.
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: Brian H on July 28, 2010, 06:32:45 PM
This promotion is slightly more but includes all the plug in software.
Stick-A-Switch and a Socket Rocket.
http://www.x10.com/promotions/cm15a_ed_freesuite_onalert_decade.html

I believe Smart Macros is $49.99 alone if not in a package deal.

Although the CM15A AHP Interface is not known for long RF signal reception. It has the ability to receive the motion sensor signal directly. No TM751 should be needed.
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: BoyntonStu on July 28, 2010, 07:30:05 PM
This promotion is slightly more but includes all the plug in software.
Stick-A-Switch and a Socket Rocket.
http://www.x10.com/promotions/cm15a_ed_freesuite_onalert_decade.html

I believe Smart Macros is $49.99 alone if not in a package deal.

Although the CM15A AHP Interface is not known for long RF signal reception. It has the ability to receive the motion sensor signal directly. No TM751 should be needed.

Thanks,  but I need to do it with just using  x10 modules.

Is there a non-computer solution?

I believe that I found it:

Buy an appliance module for each sensor; each with their own code.

Wire the appliance so that any AM466 will enable it  (parallel).

Thus, the last turn on will be the last turn off!







Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: Brian H on July 28, 2010, 08:09:20 PM
That sounds like it could work.
Good simple solution.  :)%

Let us know how it works out for you.
The only thing I can think of maybe the On Off sensor circuit in the appliance module. If it gets an Off command and the other one is On. Will it fire a few times before giving up.
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: BoyntonStu on July 28, 2010, 08:25:13 PM
That sounds like it could work.
Good simple solution.  :)%

Let us know how it works out for you.
The only thing I can think of maybe the On Off sensor circuit in the appliance module. If it gets an Off command and the other one is On. Will it fire a few times before giving up.


There is a separate AM for each sensor.

Think of 4 AM's, 4 black wires, and 4 common white wires.

The appliance to be controlled has 4 black wires going to it.

If any black wire is energized, the appliance is ON.

The appliance does not detect whether 1, 2,3, or 4 black wires are energized.

The appliance will turn off when the last black wire is de-energized.

Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: dave w on July 28, 2010, 08:44:49 PM
Boynton

What Brian is saying is: the controller chip in the Appliance Module senses it's solenoid driven latching relay output when changing the state of the relay, to ensure it indeed switches ON or OFF when told to.

In your scenario the chip will see no change when trying to unlatch the relay, since 120V from another appliance module will be backfeeding the output of the one being told to turn OFF (untill the last module is turned off. This will cause the AM to rapidly fire the solenoid relay two more times to get the relay contacts to change state. It stops after three tries. Since the chip programming gives up after three tries, your design may still work, it will just be noisy.

I hope your answer to my question: "Can the system tolerate missing a movement signal (ON or OFF) from a motion detector, or missing an ON or OFF signal to the Appliance Module?"

If the answer is "No" you should reconsider the use of X10. It is not 100%

X10 control and "must not fail" are mutually exclusive statements.
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: BoyntonStu on July 28, 2010, 09:52:27 PM
Boynton

What Brian is saying is: the controller chip in the Appliance Module senses it's solenoid driven latching relay output when changing the state of the relay, to ensure it indeed switches ON or OFF when told to.

In your scenario the chip will see no change when trying to unlatch the relay, since 120V from another appliance module will be backfeeding the output of the one being told to turn OFF (untill the last module is turned off. This will cause the AM to rapidly fire the solenoid relay two more times to get the relay contacts to change state. It stops after three tries. Since the chip programming gives up after three tries, your design may still work, it will just be noisy.

I hope your answer to my question: "Can the system tolerate missing a movement signal (ON or OFF) from a motion detector, or missing an ON or OFF signal to the Appliance Module?"

If the answer is "No" you should reconsider the use of X10. It is not 100%

X10 control and "must not fail" are mutually exclusive statements.

Thanks, I learn something new with every post.

Are we there? or are we close but no cigar?

I did not consider backfeed.

Noise is not a consideration, since the AM's will be in the garage and housed together.

Is there potential AM damage due to the extra firing pulses?

The project is to automatically turn on the house water if someone is detected.

IOW To reduce the possibility of water damage due to burst/leaking pipes, by keeping the main valve off unless we are awake and active.

Another thought:  If the appliance is plugged directly into the transceiver module are any issues listed above avoided?
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: Brian H on July 29, 2010, 07:39:05 AM
Older models may give different results; as X10 has done a re-engineering of many modules.

I tested two recent CFL Friendly Appliance Modules Date Code 09K48.
Different address B1 and B2.

The Appliance Modules have a sensor circuit in them to determine if they are On or Off when the command is received. So if they are in the state the command tells it to be in. It is ignored.

So if I turned On either the B1 or B2 Applance Module it went On.
The AC also fed back into the second Appliance Module and it thought it was On already. So it would never turned On. When its address was sent an On signal. The module that was Off. If sent an Off would pulse a few time trying to turn Off as it thought it was On

I retested with a late revision TM751 Tranceiver. Date Code 10E19. For the B1 address.

Findings are even stranger.
If the B2 Appliance Module is On and the B1 Tranceiver is Off. It stays off with a B1 On command, but if it is sent a B1 Off it turns On. The next Off will again turn it Off.  :o  ???

With the information on what you are trying to do may help in finding a solution.
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: Brian H on July 29, 2010, 08:27:51 AM
Maybe if you used the Appliance Modules and Tranceiver to each control their own 120 volt AC relay.
Then each relays contacts could be in parallel to control the water valve while each module didn't see the others AC voltgage on their outlet.
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: BoyntonStu on July 29, 2010, 09:10:18 AM
Maybe if you used the Appliance Modules and Tranceiver to each control their own 120 volt AC relay.
Then each relays contacts could be in parallel to control the water valve while each module didn't see the others AC voltgage on their outlet.

Perhaps we could use bridge rectifiers to activate a single relay to control the appliance.

"I tested two recent CFL Friendly Appliance Modules Date Code 09K48.
Different address B1 and B2.

The Appliance Modules have a sensor circuit in them to determine if they are On or Off when the command is received. So if they are in the state the command tells it to be in. It is ignored."

What model/date Transceiver was used in this test?

FYI My $100 solution for an elevator:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hom61NxuaE
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: dave w on July 29, 2010, 09:48:02 AM
Boynton

"Another thought:  If the appliance is plugged directly into the transceiver module are any issues listed above avoided?"

In that example two commands must be sent sequentially, First command must turn ON the transceiver module, second command would then turn ON the AM.  When turning them OFF the sequence of commands must be reversed to turn OFF the AM first, then second command would turn OFF the transceiver output. This will be true even if both modules have the same HCUC address.

Brians suggestion of 120V AC coil relays is a good solution.

I use AMs to drive these relays (top link) and they work well, in addition to being cheap. All Electronics even has some 120V relays with LEDs in them, so you could easily see the status of your "relay logic" bank.

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/RLY-453/120-VAC-RELAY-DPDT-12-AMPS//1.html

http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/4PRLY-120L/120VAC-4PDT-KH-RELAY-W/LED//1.html

BTW I did not know that; if an Appliance Module is backfed and told to turn ON, it won't even bother since it thinks it is already ON. I have been playing with X10 since about 1979 and I'm still learning stuff.

A Thank You and +1 to the "Brian H Testing Laboratories" !! ;)
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: Brian H on July 29, 2010, 09:48:36 AM
TM751 was the Tranceiver. Most don't have the polite RR501s.

How the older versions with Local Sensing act could be even a different set of findings.
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: JeffVolp on July 29, 2010, 10:40:09 AM

If I was going to do this with X10, I would use several universal modules in a "wire-OR" configuration switching 12V from a wall wart to power a 120V relay with a 12V coil.

If your water valve is controlled by low voltage, perhaps you could use the universal modules directly to switch power to the valve.

Jeff
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: Brian H on July 29, 2010, 11:47:51 AM
That sounds good Jeff.
I was thinking on those lines when the Appliance Modules got introduced to the mix and I wigged out.  ;D

One added thought. RF distance from the motion sensor to the transceiver and power line issues from transceiver to the modules doing the controlling.
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: BoyntonStu on July 29, 2010, 12:16:25 PM


BTW I did not know that; if an Appliance Module is backfed and told to turn ON, it won't even bother since it thinks it is already ON. I have been playing with X10 since about 1979 and I'm still learning stuff.


How do I identify which Appliance Module to buy?
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: Brian H on July 29, 2010, 12:39:07 PM
Is the water valve 120 volts AC or a low voltage AC/DC?
The X10 UM506; X10Pro PUM01 are a low voltage switch output. Can be used to switch low voltage things like valves.
No rated for 120 volt switching.
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: dave w on July 29, 2010, 01:39:48 PM
How do I identify which Appliance Module to buy?
The two Appliance Modules still being made by X10 are virtully identical, excepting the AM466 is three pin (ground) and AM486 is two pin polarized. X10 Pro has same Appliance Modules under different numbers. Supposedly the "Pro" models go through a burn-in and perhaps more QA testing than the standard X10 offering.


As Brian pointed out, the X10 "Universal Module" provides a simple contact closure for low voltage use. This would eliminate the backfeed problem. The Universal Module has maximum current (5 amp) and voltage (24V) limits. The instructions can be found here:
ftp://ftp.x10.com/pub/manuals/um506-is.pdf
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: BoyntonStu on July 29, 2010, 02:13:27 PM
Is the water valve 120 volts AC or a low voltage AC/DC?
The X10 UM506; X10Pro PUM01 are a low voltage switch output. Can be used to switch low voltage things like valves.
No rated for 120 volt switching.


The valve is a low voltage AC/DC unit <= 24 V.

The only problem is the continuous running of the primary transformer for the low voltage.

I was planning on switching the 110 VAC primary to the low voltage source.

The goals is to do the job with the minimum of parts.

I believe that the lowest component count system would be X #  sensors and a Transceiver capable of ignoring multiple ON pulses.

BTW Why use batteries in the sensors if a battery eliminator is used?

Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: Brian H on July 29, 2010, 06:36:24 PM
I will give it more thought and see what I can find out.
Scary part is. I sometimes solve problems or have a why didn't I think of that sooner thought. While dreaming.  -:)

I am sure others may also have some ideas.
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: dave w on July 29, 2010, 08:40:50 PM

The only problem is the continuous running of the primary transformer for the low voltage.


BTW Why use batteries in the sensors if a battery eliminator is used?


1. If the secondary isn't loaded your primary current will usually be pretty low. Same is even more true if you use a switching power supply, although some switching supplies are the nemisis of X10 PLC commands because of the electrical noise they generate.

2. I use 3V battery eliminator to power a hard to reach  MS16A, and to float charge the two AAA NiCADs. The NiCADS will maintain programming in the event of power failure.
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: Brian H on July 30, 2010, 06:44:55 AM
I would also say the batteries will keep them programmed in a power failure.
No power and they forget everything. Going back to all defaults. Meaning you have to do a complete reprogramming of the motion sensors after a power loss.
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: BoyntonStu on July 30, 2010, 07:55:32 AM
I would also say the batteries will keep them programmed in a power failure.
No power and they forget everything. Going back to all defaults. Meaning you have to do a complete reprogramming of the motion sensors after a power loss.

I plan on using the MS16a sensors with analog setting of delay at 45 minutes.

The default address setting will be the only address used.

Am I forgetting any other sensor setting that would be lost due a power outage?

BTW Power outage when I am home, open valve manually, away, nothing.
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: Brian H on July 30, 2010, 12:37:33 PM
Default settings. From the manual if X10 has not changed things and forgot to tell us.
Address A1
Detect motion all the time {day and night}
Time out before off. Time set on the small variable dial.
Dusk Dawn feature off.
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: BoyntonStu on July 30, 2010, 02:58:25 PM
Default settings. From the manual if X10 has not changed things and forgot to tell us.
Address A1
Detect motion all the time {day and night}
Time out before off. Time set on the small variable dial.
Dusk Dawn feature off.

Perfect.

I ordered 3 MS16a's, 3  AM466's, and a TM751.

I should be able to do the project with some or all of these.
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: Brian H on July 30, 2010, 03:11:31 PM
OK Let us know how the project goes.
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: BoyntonStu on August 04, 2010, 11:26:37 AM
OK Let us know how the project goes.


Almost Success.

Using 2 MS16A sensors #1=A1, #2=A3, and 2 AM's , I can connect a single lamp in parallel to both AM's and if one receives an OFF signal, the light remains on.

The back voltage may be keeping the light on.

Is there a solution?

Many thanks!

Have you read my idea for an inductive charger?
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: dave w on August 04, 2010, 11:51:36 AM

Using 2 MS16A sensors #1=A1, #2=A3, and 2 AM's , I can connect a single lamp in parallel to both AM's and if one receives an OFF signal, the light remains on.

The back voltage may be keeping the light on.

Is there a solution?
I'm confused, isn't that what you wanted? A logic OR configureation? What happens when the other AM receives the OFF command from second MS16A?
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: BoyntonStu on August 04, 2010, 12:35:36 PM
Try turning both On and then unplug the load side from each. One at a time to verify both actually are On?

Like Dave said. I thought you wanted a wired or type circuit where either one was On. The power stayed on.

Yes, turning ON and remaining ON is not the problem.

Either MS16a will turn on the light.

After both MS16's detect motion, the parallel output AM's  will turn the light OFF.

The light stays on when even when both OFF signals are sent.

There may be a sequencing problem.

I will see if it matters whether A1 or A3 initializes first.

Strange, very strange.

As I sit here watching the light it occured to me:

What if all sensors and all AM's were set to A1?

Trying it now.
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: Brian H on August 04, 2010, 12:51:55 PM
Listen real closely to the first one that is getting the Off signal.
If it clicks more than one time. It tired to turn Off. Saw the voltage still there and tried again. Thus it actually turned back On with the Off command.

I would also verify that both are On. By disconnecting the Output from each one individually. When they should be On and see if the module is really On.

Did you buy the modules from X10 or a independent dealer?
As some may still be selling out older stock.

Older models with Local Control act even stranger than the newer CFL friendly ones with out Local Control.
One way to tell is with one module connected and in the Off state. Toggle the lights local switch Off and back On. If the module goes back On you have Local Control in the modules.
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: dave w on August 04, 2010, 12:57:49 PM
Either MS16a will turn on the light.

After both MS16's detect motion, the parallel output AM's  will turn the light OFF.

The light stays on when even when both OFF signals are sent.

There may be a sequencing problem.

I will see if it matters whether A1 or A3 initializes first.

Strange, very strange.

As I sit here watching the light it occured to me:

What if all sensors and all AM's were set to A1?

Trying it now.

By now you have found out setting all to A1 results in all AMs turning OFF as soon as the first MS times out.

There can not be a sequencing problem if appliance modules are parallel not series. How are you wiring the outputs in parallel? Extension cord with two plugs?

How do you know BOTH MS16A have sent an OFF? The LED on the MS16A blink whether sending ON or OFF and the MS16A will send an ON every time it sees motion, so are you sure the AM both an receive A1 OFF and an A3 OFF?
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: Brian H on August 04, 2010, 01:03:44 PM
The A1 On and Off will also toggle the TM751s internal relay.
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: BoyntonStu on August 04, 2010, 01:08:39 PM

By now you have found out setting all to A1 results in all AMs turning OFF as soon as the first MS times out.  CORRECT!

There can not be a sequencing problem if appliance modules are parallel not series. How are you wiring the outputs in parallel? Extension cord with two plugs?


A single lamp with 2 bare wires, a short wire plugged into each AM,  the white commons and the black 120V wires are wire nutted together with the 2 lamp wires.

I believe that isolating the outputs via relays (as suggested) may be the only solution.

I believe that the solenoid valve may operate on DC, if that is any help.


Strange, stranger, strangest.

With AM#1 set to A! and with AM#2 set to A3, if I hold my finger on each module and press either MS-16A sensor OFF button, I feel a click in each AM?????

It seems that the parallel output is allowing the OFF signal to go to both modules.????
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: dave w on August 04, 2010, 01:51:51 PM

I believe that isolating the outputs via relays (as suggested) may be the only solution.

I believe that the solenoid valve may operate on DC, if that is any help.
With AM#1 set to A! and with AM#2 set to A3, if I hold my finger on each module and press either MS-16A sensor OFF button, I feel a click in each AM?????

It seems that the parallel output is allowing the OFF signal to go to both modules.????
Very wierd. Make sure we have this right:
With AM outputs in parallel, they turn ON independantly?
They turn OFF togeather regardless whether A1 or A3 is the address sent?
Are you sure the "MS3" motion sensor is truely programmed to A3? They default back to A1 with any battery interuption. Maybe try a different HC (say B3) for the second MS16A.
So if you break the connection between outputs of AM1 and AM3 they start working independantly again?
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: BoyntonStu on August 04, 2010, 02:35:16 PM
Very wierd. Make sure we have this right:
With AM outputs in parallel, they turn ON independantly?  Yes

They turn OFF togeather regardless whether A1 or A3 is the address sent?  no, they stay ON.

Are you sure the "MS3" motion sensor is truely programmed to A3? Yes

They default back to A1 with any battery interuption. Maybe try a different HC (say B3) for the second MS16A.

How can I do a B and an A with one Transceiver?

So if you break the connection between outputs of AM1 and AM3 they start working independantly again?  Yes

BTW I am ordering three 110 VAC relays.

The relay inputs will be independent.

The switched output contacts will control the primary of a 110 VAC/24VAC transformer which will operate the water valve.
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: dave w on August 04, 2010, 03:11:33 PM
How can I do a B and an A with one Transceiver?

BTW I am ordering three 110 VAC relays.

The relay inputs will be independent.

The switched output contacts will control the primary of a 110 VAC/24VAC transformer which will operate the water valve.

You can't use two house codes...sorry, complete brain flatulence on my part....happens a lot.

The relays will fix your problem. BTW if you are ordering the relays from All Electronics they also have cheap line cords to connect the relay coils to the AMs.
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: Brian H on August 04, 2010, 03:48:36 PM
I also think the relays will fix the problems with strange On and Off events.

I tried different combinations of old and new style appliance modules. All the combinations seemed to have strange behavior.
The older ones with Local Control seemed to be even more of a problem than the new CFL friendly ones.
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: BoyntonStu on August 04, 2010, 06:09:08 PM


[/quote]
You can't use two house codes...sorry, complete brain flatulence on my part....happens a lot.

The relays will fix your problem. BTW if you are ordering the relays from All Electronics they also have cheap line cords to connect the relay coils to the AMs.
[/quote]

I bought 3 relays for $8.95 shipped.

http://tinyurl.com/2vecjsw

My plan is to house the 3 AM's, 3 relay, the 24 VAC transformer, and a multi receptacle in a box located near the water valve.
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: Brian H on August 04, 2010, 07:20:11 PM
I have some of the Omron LY2 110/120 VAC relays if you need some tests.
The LY2F has the added top mount flange but electrically the same as my LY2 110/120 VAC in the plain clear case.

Are your Appliance Modules the newer type with out the Local Control Sensing current on the Outlet?
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: dave w on August 04, 2010, 07:21:58 PM
I bought 3 relays for $8.95 shipped.


WOW!! YOU SCORED!!    >!
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: BoyntonStu on August 04, 2010, 08:02:05 PM
I have some of the Omron LY2 110/120 VAC relays if you need some tests.
The LY2F has the added top mount flange but electrically the same as my LY2 110/120 VAC in the plain clear case.

Are your Appliance Modules the newer type with out the Local Control Sensing current on the Outlet?


Thanks for your kind offer.

The shipping document says "CFL". 

Is this an up to late model?

What is Local Control Sensing and how would it affect my project to be with/without it?

I have two AM's plugged into a outlet bar with night lights plugged into them.

The MS 16a's are set to 2 minutes and it is fun seeing them turn on and off as family members come in and out of my home office.

Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: Brian H on August 04, 2010, 08:27:52 PM
Local Control Sensing. Allows you to turn the module On with out an X10 power line signal.
What you do is turn the loads local switch from On to Off and back to On. This triggers the module to turn On.
It also puts more current on the outlet when Off. It actually is a  mix of DC and AC currents.
In your use. One turning Off may trigger another one to go back On. I also found my LY2 relay buzzes on the old style appliance module when Off.

Easy test. May even work with your night lights. Turn the appliance modules off and then cycle the night lights switch Off and back On. If it stays off it does not have Local Control and the CFL indication also indicates the latest version with no Local Control.
Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: BoyntonStu on August 09, 2010, 07:17:04 AM
Maybe if you used the Appliance Modules and Tranceiver to each control their own 120 volt AC relay.
Then each relays contacts could be in parallel to control the water valve while each module didn't see the others AC voltgage on their outlet.

YES!

I ordered 2 additional transceivers.

I snipped a wire to the relay in the one I have to silence it, what a difference!

I will no longer need to juggle the MS16a's to a single Transceiver distance.

My plan is the place a transceiver and it MS16a sensor as close to each other as possible.

One possible hiding place for the transceiver is in the attic and directly above its sensor.

Plugged in under the kitchen sink cabinet is another more convenient close by hiding place.


BTW I plan to Velcro each MS16a for quick removal to allow in my hands battery changing.

What House and which number would you recommend to max the separation of frequencies?

All AM's will be collocated with a relay on a single board and fed from a single breaker.

Is there any problem with that?

Many thanks.

Title: Re: Battery Motion Sensors to be hard wired?
Post by: Brian H on August 09, 2010, 07:27:42 AM
They all use the same RF frequency to receive the motion sensors signal and the same power line frequency to send the commands to the Appliance Modules.

If you don't want to hear the TM751s clunk on and off. Don't pick Unit Code 1. 2-16 are fine.

I don't think there are any House Codes better than others.
Some like to stay away from A because it is the default and many of your neighbors could be using A.

http://forums.x10.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=racj838jjj8n77pr5fulaib204&topic=19756.0

Other than the power line signal problems we sometimes see.
It looks OK setup wise.