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📸Cameras & Camera Software => Legacy non Wi-Fi X10 Cameras => Camera General Discussion => Wireless Cameras(non IP) => Topic started by: pantarra on August 20, 2010, 05:26:09 PM

Title: Multi directional antenna modification
Post by: pantarra on August 20, 2010, 05:26:09 PM
I bought a antenna 2.4 thats for a router but im unsure if this antenna will work Ive included photo its slightly different. can I make the wire shorther? does the wire have to be coated like the original? I really hate to destroy a good cam and make a mistake. please help
i bought these antenna from ebay real cheap 5 for 10 bucks...http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=17116.0 (http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=17116.0)
thanks
Title: Re: Multi directional antenna modification
Post by: HA Dave on August 20, 2010, 07:43:10 PM
I bought a antenna 2.4 thats for a router but im unsure if this antenna will work ............ I really hate to destroy a good cam and make a mistake. please help

Ive modified the antenna of one camera (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ft9-yxNb47Q) (as well as the Ninja its mounted on)... with good (although mixed) results. There is no guarantee that your... or ANY modification... will improve a devices performance. It is also possible that you could destroy a perfectly good camera. It is a risk that only you can decide to take or not.
Title: Re: Multi directional antenna modification
Post by: pantarra on August 20, 2010, 08:04:56 PM
Thank You Dave..does it matter that the replacemet antenna dosnt have the same wire coating? also the replacement has a little clip at the end will can I cut that off? ..any tips to help me not destroy a good cam?
Title: Re: Multi directional antenna modification
Post by: HA Dave on August 20, 2010, 09:06:42 PM
Thank You Dave..does it matter that the replacemet antenna dosnt have the same wire coating?

I wouldn't expect the wires to be exact... they should be somewhat similar... like a wire insulated, inside a shielding mesh of wire.

also the replacement has a little clip at the end will can I cut that off? ..any tips to help me not destroy a good cam?

Use your soldering iron to remove the old antenna. Cut and solder the new antenna wire as needed (you only have so much space inside the camera). If the new antenna doesn't give you the desired results... put the old antenna back.
Title: Re: Multi directional antenna modification
Post by: pantarra on August 20, 2010, 09:19:49 PM
it appears the antennas I bought dont have the plastic coating like one on X10...heres the link to the antennas
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290350446384&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT
 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290350446384&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT)

thanks Dave
Title: Re: Multi directional antenna modification
Post by: nybuck on August 21, 2010, 12:45:14 PM
it appears the antennas I bought dont have the plastic coating like one on X10...heres the link to the antennas


The coating should not matter.  What you need is an antenna in the same band (2.4 GHz - You got that)
and to connect the two parts of the wire to the X10 device  (jacket and center conductor of the wire)

Good luck, and let us know how it turns out!   ;)
Title: Re: Multi directional antenna modification
Post by: pantarra on August 26, 2010, 07:54:40 PM
Worked really well and the cam quality was much better the high gain antenas I bought made a big difference
Title: Re: Multi directional antenna modification
Post by: HA Dave on August 26, 2010, 10:02:56 PM
Worked really well and the cam quality was much better the high gain antenas I bought made a big difference

Very cool. Really glad to hear your happy with your results. This X10 stuff seems to be made to be modified.
Title: Re: Multi directional antenna modification
Post by: pantarra on August 26, 2010, 10:37:31 PM
thank you guyz for your help
Title: Re: Multi directional antenna modification
Post by: tom j on January 12, 2011, 07:21:35 PM
Worked really well and the cam quality was much better the high gain antenas I bought made a big difference


Hay just saw this post just want I was looking for, if I read this correctly the modification was done on the Camera, I was thinking about doing this to the receiver. Anyone else try this?? Just wondering were I can get a suitable antenna any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

And why can't x10 make improvements like this it would only result in INCREASED sales, heck I would have bought more cameras if the antenna on the receivers were multi directional.

Tom j.
Title: Re: Multi directional antenna modification
Post by: Brian H on January 12, 2011, 07:33:07 PM
http://forums.x10.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=979tgk0dmd86ugvc6blags9735&topic=17116.0

Although the same router antenna used for the cameras should also work for a receiver.

One thing about the original directional antenna. Since it was directional it may have had some gain to receive the cameras signal better if it was weak.
Title: Re: Multi directional antenna modification
Post by: tom j on January 13, 2011, 09:12:34 PM
http://forums.x10.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=979tgk0dmd86ugvc6blags9735&topic=17116.0

Although the same router antenna used for the cameras should also work for a receiver.

One thing about the original directional antenna. Since it was directional it may have had some gain to receive the cameras signal better if it was weak.

So do you think it would work or that you would be better off trying it on the camera, if the receiver worked I could use multiple cameras with just one modified receiver. Thanks

Tom j.
Title: Re: Multi directional antenna modification
Post by: dave w on January 14, 2011, 09:16:25 AM
And why can't x10 make improvements like this it would only result in INCREASED sales, heck I would have bought more cameras if the antenna on the receivers were multi directional.

Tom j.
$0.02
I think X10's original design called for the paddle antenna because their camera transmitters are VERY low power out, and a directional antenna (the paddle) provides signal gain in the direction the paddle faces. Maybe when they decided to get in the video business they didn' invision the Ninja, so they did not contemplate the effects of the pan when the camera is mounted to a Ninja P&T unit. I think us old "RF geezers" has many times scratched our collective heads, wondering "why did they do that".

If me, I would try the router antenna on the video receiver first. Receivers are less sensitive to antenna mismatch that transmitters. Then move on to the camera mods if the receiver mod does not fix your problem. Several regulars have modded their cameras with great results (i.e Dave X10).
Title: Re: Multi directional antenna modification
Post by: Knightrider on January 15, 2011, 07:49:52 AM
I've never cracked one of the paddles open, but would be interest to know if there's a "Fractal Antenna" plate inside.  Would kinda make it a universal antenna if x10 were ever to change the channel.  Would allow one part to interchange to different products.

I guess one of you guys that worked for "M" would have to look at the transmitter circuit to see how reflected energy would work on the emitter.
Title: Re: Multi directional antenna modification
Post by: dave w on January 15, 2011, 10:14:45 AM
I guess one of you guys that worked for "M" would have to look at the transmitter circuit to see how reflected energy would work on the emitter.
Brian H has noted that one of the three pots on the PC board adjusts TX frequency, which would imply a VCO-PLL for transmit freq. I don't remember if Brian noted a crystal for the PLL comparision clock. A WAG might be only EFP is effected by mis-match and not frequency stability.

I remember seeing a pix of the antenna plate but don't remember the details. I will see if I can locate that pix.
Title: Re: Multi directional antenna modification
Post by: Brian H on January 15, 2011, 10:54:48 AM
Two of the pots adjust the highest and lowest frequency.
The switch adds different 1% resistor combinations to the VP voltage.
What resistors are on the board is determined to which frequencies are allowed for the country in question.

Ch 1 VP=1.6V
Ch 4 VP=4.6V

No crystal. Voltage variable capacitor diode in the oscillator.

The Baseband adjustment takes the 1Vpp Video/Sync from the video sensor board and lowers it to .4 Vpp for the modulator.
Title: Re: Multi directional antenna modification
Post by: dave w on January 15, 2011, 11:10:35 AM
No xtal uh?
So do you think they are just using an L-C oscillator to develop their fundamental? Doesn't really matter, the fact that users making the mod to an omni antenna has not lost their video transmission indicate to me that TX freq is stable (continuing the WAG). I'm still looking for that naked antenna pix.
Title: Re: Multi directional antenna modification
Post by: dave w on January 15, 2011, 12:29:32 PM
I've never cracked one of the paddles open, but would be interest to know if there's a "Fractal Antenna" plate inside. 
Found a pix.

http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=17716.0

The plate looks solid to me.
Title: Re: Multi directional antenna modification
Post by: Brian H on January 15, 2011, 12:42:20 PM
Yes it does.
Some of the construction plans on RC-Cam also seem to show the antenna as a solid plate patch antenna.

http://www.rc-cam.com/index.htm
Title: Re: Multi directional antenna modification
Post by: dave w on January 15, 2011, 02:28:14 PM
Yup, I think the Knight was giving too much credit to X10 when thinking X10 might be working with fancy high tech antennas. That would take extra parts and cost a few cents more.   :'
Title: Re: Multi directional antenna modification
Post by: Knightrider on January 15, 2011, 03:09:44 PM
Darn.  The Sad thing was that Chins and I worked over email on that mod before it was posted.  I should have known. 

You are right.  Hi-tec thingies like fractal antennas excite me, and I was giving too much credit to the company.
Title: Re: Multi directional antenna modification
Post by: tom j on January 17, 2011, 04:08:25 AM
And why can't x10 make improvements like this it would only result in INCREASED sales, heck I would have bought more cameras if the antenna on the receivers were multi directional.

Tom j.
$0.02
I think X10's original design called for the paddle antenna because their camera transmitters are VERY low power out, and a directional antenna (the paddle) provides signal gain in the direction the paddle faces. Maybe when they decided to get in the video business they didn' invision the Ninja, so they did not contemplate the effects of the pan when the camera is mounted to a Ninja P&T unit. I think us old "RF geezers" has many times scratched our collective heads, wondering "why did they do that".

If me, I would try the router antenna on the video receiver first. Receivers are less sensitive to antenna mismatch that transmitters. Then move on to the camera mods if the receiver mod does not fix your problem. Several regulars have modded their cameras with great results (i.e Dave X10).

Thanks Dave! say why do you think the reception is better just seems like a piece of plastic and wire.Apparently it worked but I'm curious as to why the reception actually improved., And it would be nice if X10  could update thing now and try to improve the reception when you have have multiple cameras it's very difficult to adjust that directional receiver so everything comes in clear.

Tom j.
Title: Re: Multi directional antenna modification
Post by: dave w on January 17, 2011, 06:03:03 PM
And it would be nice if X10  could update thing now and try to improve the reception when you have have multiple cameras it's very difficult to adjust that directional receiver so everything comes in clear.
Tom j.
If both camera and receiver paddles were aimed exactly at each other, then I would think the paddles would produce a slightly stronger picture than the "Omni" stick antenna. These paddles at 2.4 GHz *begin* to resemble the directional sensitivities of microwave dishes. Even a few degrees off center will degrade the signal.

As far as X10 switching to omni antennas, Yeah, it would nice, but to change the antenna design would force X10 to go through a new "Type Acceptance" with the FCC. That costs a bunch, so I don't expect to see it unless they come out with a new camera and would have to go through testing for the new design.
Title: Re: Multi directional antenna modification
Post by: tom j on January 20, 2011, 01:26:08 AM
And it would be nice if X10  could update thing now and try to improve the reception when you have have multiple cameras it's very difficult to adjust that directional receiver so everything comes in clear.
Tom j.
If both camera and receiver paddles were aimed exactly at each other, then I would think the paddles would produce a slightly stronger picture than the "Omni" stick antenna. These paddles at 2.4 GHz *begin* to resemble the directional sensitivities of microwave dishes. Even a few degrees off center will degrade the signal.

As far as X10 switching to omni antennas, Yeah, it would nice, but to change the antenna design would force X10 to go through a new "Type Acceptance" with the FCC. That costs a bunch, so I don't expect to see it unless they come out with a new camera and would have to go through testing for the new design.

Oh I see I was wondering why they hadn't changed the design, and I agree completely just a minor shift in direction can make a significant difference. Think it would be a worthwhile project if you're using multiple cameras? Thanks

Tom j.
Title: Re: Multi directional antenna modification
Post by: troll334 on January 20, 2011, 04:43:09 PM
I think we need to put our heads together and build a 2.4GHz yagi.
20dB gain... let's end this problem  :)
relax, I'm just kiddin'
Title: Re: Multi directional antenna modification
Post by: dave w on January 20, 2011, 06:04:57 PM
I think we need to put our heads together and build a 2.4GHz yagi.
20dB gain... let's end this problem  :)
relax, I'm just kiddin'
Ya know troll....I have a bunch of Roomba's (another story for another day) and at least two ebay vendors have made a nice little cottage industry out of reworking the Roomba brush box to install shielded ball bearings to help prevent dust and hair from gumming up the brush box gear works (the main weak link in the Roomba...a vacuum cleaner who's nemisis is dirt, go figure).  Maybe one of us should consider the "X10 Video Camera Rework Shop"...or team up, after todays snow and tomorrows sub zero cold, I am ready to be your neighbor.

"Have Weller - Will Solder".  (nobody will get that.. I don't know why I said it).   :'
Title: Re: Multi directional antenna modification
Post by: HA Dave on January 20, 2011, 06:36:03 PM
"Have Weller - Will Solder".  (nobody will get that.. I don't know why I said it).   :'

What? You mean someone might not remember Richard Boone's greatest part as Paladin. Paladin was a gun slinger and his biz card read "Have gun will travel". Also the name of the show. This Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgvxu8QY01s) should jog a rusty memory.

And of course Weller is the name [brand] of soldering irons.
Title: Re: Multi directional antenna modification
Post by: dave w on January 20, 2011, 08:00:28 PM
What? You mean someone might not remember Richard Boone's greatest part as Paladin. Paladin was a gun slinger and his biz card read "Have gun will travel". Also the name of the show. This Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgvxu8QY01s) should jog a rusty memory.

And of course Weller is the name [brand] of soldering irons.

Way cool!! But Dave, we are both dating ourselves as "old geezers". As far as jogging a rusty memory...mine is past rusty...more like petrified.

I pulled this thread way off course, but it was closing anyway.

So who came first, Festus or Chester?  :'
Title: Re: Multi directional antenna modification
Post by: Knightrider on January 20, 2011, 08:24:10 PM
First of all, I'm not a geezer, but I well know "Have Gun Will Travel".  I'm not a fan of the Weller guns for electronics though.

Darn, now how am I going to get that song out of my head?
Title: Re: Multi directional antenna modification
Post by: HA Dave on January 20, 2011, 09:19:45 PM
So who came first, Festus or Chester?  :'

I can't remember when  Dennis Weaver [playing Chester Goode] finally decided to leave the show. But I may have graduated high school by then. Festus was Chesters replacement.
Title: Re: Multi directional antenna modification
Post by: dave w on January 21, 2011, 09:13:05 AM
I can't remember when  Dennis Weaver [playing Chester Goode] finally decided to leave the show. But I may have graduated high school by then. Festus was Chesters replacement.
Give the man a Kewpie Doll! (nobody will get that - I don't know why I said it.)  rofl
Title: Re: Multi directional antenna modification
Post by: mike on January 21, 2011, 07:07:54 PM
If both camera and receiver paddles were aimed exactly at each other, then I would think the paddles would produce a slightly stronger picture than the "Omni" stick antenna.....

I don't think so;  for instance, the cheap collinear omni directional 2.4ghz antennas can reach 18db (sorta fake - compared to 1/4 wave not dipole).  For instance:

http://cgi.ebay.com/18db-2-4Hz-WiFi-Router-Antenna-Booster-WLAN-NEW-20-1642-/120603909930?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c148d9f2a

The x10 paddle is probably 1.1 - just a tad better, if at all, than a 1/4 wave antenna would be....

When you put sma or rp-sma connector on the receiver, you can try different gain antennas and see the improvement in the video.  w/o my approx 20" long 18db antenna, i would have no hope getting the video from thru 4 walls 100' away as i do.
Title: Re: Multi directional antenna modification
Post by: dave w on January 21, 2011, 08:23:26 PM
I don't think so;  for instance, the cheap collinear omni directional 2.4ghz antennas can reach 18db (sorta fake - compared to 1/4 wave not dipole). 
Exactly. It is fake. Passive antennas can not amplify RF. A directional antenna will have more "gain" than a 1/4 or 1/2 and likely a omni, but only in a specific direction.  An omni's "gain" is still from it's donut pattern instead of a dome pattern.
Title: Re: Multi directional antenna modification
Post by: mike on January 22, 2011, 07:34:22 AM
yepper.  and taking that 1/4wave antenna's round basketball shaped radiation pattern and squishing it down - like putting your hand on top of it and pushing down - of course does increase the radiation distance horizontally in an omni directional way, so the net effect is the same as a directional gain antenna - it goes further horizontally, so the effect is the same - it works farther.  The 18db based on 1/4 wavelength and length of my 18db antenna is probably only 15db gain in reality.  I think our amateur radio mfgrs are the only ones still rating db gain on dipole as it should be, and even a lot of them are now comparing to 1/4wave too for sales propaganda instead. But this beats the flat thing shipped on the receiver hands down. 

AC8V
Title: Re: Multi directional antenna modification
Post by: troll334 on January 24, 2011, 08:53:09 AM
Excellent assessment gentlemen,
I like it !
wd4fqk