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🖥️ActiveHome Pro => ActiveHome Pro General => Help & Troubleshooting => Topic started by: mike on February 07, 2011, 06:38:50 PM

Title: LED lighting
Post by: mike on February 07, 2011, 06:38:50 PM
I searched for LED and did not see a recent post on this so thought I would make one.

I think a lot of us have had issues with trying to run very low power loads like LED lighting with appliance or lamp modules.  I had a lite module that worked with my wifes makeup mirror 10pc 1 watt  LED string light for a few years - until the power failure last week from ice storm that blew it.  5 replacement lamp and appliance modules did not work - LED would keep flashing every 3 seconds as voltage built up on ouput due to the low load.  Others have suggested sticking a little 7 watt or so night lite on the output to help load it.  I finally just took out the capacitor and resistor hooked to the output hi leg of the relay inside the appliance module and the leakage path is now gone and it works fine now. 
Title: Re: LED lighting
Post by: Brian H on February 07, 2011, 06:46:35 PM
Is the appliance module you modified. The older one with the through hole controller IC or the new CFL friendly version with the surface mounted controller on the solder side of the PCB?
Title: Re: LED lighting
Post by: dave w on February 07, 2011, 07:29:08 PM
It doesn't go "clickty-clickty-click"?
Title: Re: LED lighting
Post by: mike on February 08, 2011, 06:14:23 PM
believe it is smd IC type. if really important to you, I will take apart and make sure and post.

being appliance module, it goes click click click - looks like around a 15amp SPST latching relay.
Title: Re: LED lighting
Post by: Brian H on February 08, 2011, 06:20:24 PM
I believe dave w wanted to know if it clicked two or three times when you tried to turn it on or off. That is the typical response if the am I on or off circuit doesn't toggle correctly.

Would be nice to know if it was the new CFL type and maybe even the silk screened part numbers on the PCB.
Though we do not want you to break the wife's module to get the information.
Title: Re: LED lighting
Post by: dave w on February 08, 2011, 07:19:10 PM
I believe dave w wanted to know if it clicked two or three times when you tried to turn it on or off. That is the typical response if the am I on or off circuit doesn't toggle correctly.
Thanks Brian, that's exactly what I was curious about. It sounds like Mike disconnected the relay output from any feedback circuit, so I would have expected the contoller chip to fire the solenoid a time or two more. The old modules was three times for three clicks, you said the new modules was only two clicks didn't you?
Title: Re: LED lighting
Post by: mike on February 09, 2011, 07:35:22 PM
no double/triple clicks.  works first time every ti9me.

AM465.  old style  F78570 thru hole chip not SMD.

removed cap & res tied to hot output side of relay contact, both of which went to a diode to house code sw.

no silk screen on pcb.  on pcb side EGC & 10003A

works now on (probably 7 watt) LED lite string (120->24v wall outlet PS).

got yelled at taking it apart, don.t "fix" stuff that works....... back together and working again :)
Title: Re: LED lighting
Post by: Brian H on February 09, 2011, 08:21:24 PM
Thanks Mike.
Didn't want to get you in trouble with the wife.
Title: Re: LED lighting
Post by: dave w on February 09, 2011, 08:49:44 PM
got yelled at taking it apart, don.t "fix" stuff that works....... back together and working again :)

Our wives are related!
Title: Re: LED lighting
Post by: Brian H on February 10, 2011, 06:06:26 AM
I looked at the schematic for the older appliance modules.
Basically you did what the cut the diode mod did.
There would be no Click-Click-Click as the on or off status sensing is still connected.
Title: Re: LED lighting
Post by: SilverHairedSaint on April 10, 2011, 07:49:48 PM
Has anyone tried using the X10 spotlights with sensors and/or cameras with PAR38 LED Spotlights?  I've been running eight LED PAR 38 Spotlights which each use about 10-12 watts, but haven't tried them with X10 yet.  I wanted to find out if they will work before I go changing things out--I don't like ladders too much and my house is pretty tall! B:(
Title: Re: LED lighting
Post by: dave w on April 11, 2011, 11:23:23 AM
Has anyone tried using the X10 spotlights with sensors and/or cameras with PAR38 LED Spotlights? 
I have not, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once.

FWIW
The PR511 uses a relay to supply power to the lights so it *should work* with LEDs or CFLs.
Title: Re: LED lighting
Post by: mike on April 11, 2011, 05:30:51 PM
OK Dave, I'll ask:  what the heck does ur staying at a HI Express have to do with it????   (I'm almost afraid to ask!)

PS:  I have been using these Par38's in multiple different brand non X10 infrared motion sensing dual flood lites for 2+yrs now and they work swell.
Title: Re: LED lighting
Post by: dave w on April 11, 2011, 08:38:15 PM
OK Dave, I'll ask:  what the heck does ur staying at a HI Express have to do with it????   (I'm almost afraid to ask!)

PS:  I have been using these Par38's in multiple different brand non X10 infrared motion sensing dual flood lites for 2+yrs now and they work swell.
rofl  You must have missed all the HI Express "expert" commercials. Sorry, I guess you had to be there. Hey did you guys get nasty weather down there yesterday?
Title: Re: LED lighting
Post by: brwolfe on April 27, 2011, 03:51:02 PM
I have an aquarium that has been running an x10 system for 10 years without any problems.  There are three appliance modules that ran some compact flourescents, and 2-175w metal halide lights.
I decided to break down and spend the money on LED fixtures.
It is 110 watt fixture and when plugged into the x10 system it turns on, it'll turn off, but then comes right back on again 2-3 seconds later.
Does this every time.
Some extranious signal is coming from these LED units causing the X10 to misbehave.
Any thoughts on simple filtering.
I have not tried to change the code they are running on since they were working fine previous.
The tank is run by one of those older Radio Shack alarm clock type X10 controllers.
The house lighting is run off of a Smart Home controller, and as it can control the tank if I want, I chose to keep the local alarm clock controller running the tank cause it was always flawless.


Regards;

Brian
Title: Re: LED lighting
Post by: Brian H on April 27, 2011, 04:01:22 PM
If you have been using the Appliance Modules for ten years. We know they are not the new CFL friendly ones.
Most likely the LED lights are making some noise as they turn off and triggering the Appliance Modules Local Control Circuit.
As a test. Try adding a small 4 watt incandescent night light bulb on the modules controlled output along with the LED lights. Maybe with one of those power taps. If it then behaves. It is the Local Control Sensor re-triggering it.
Title: Re: LED lighting
Post by: brwolfe on April 28, 2011, 04:48:55 PM
Thanks Brian H, I did read some where else in here about putting extra load on the x10 output like that, but I didn't find that as being a viable solution, but I put a 7w night night on it and it works fine now.
So I don't want to use this as a solution, what if the bulb burns out or somthing, can I make a permanent solution with resitors or capacitors or modify these modules to work properly?

Thanks

Brian W.
Title: Re: LED lighting
Post by: Brian H on April 28, 2011, 06:15:35 PM
If they are the older ones with Local Control Sensing. There are some modifications for them but if it is the relay on or off sensor. Defeating it causes a machine gun ratchet sound.

You may find it easier to try a 39k {39,000 OHM} 1/2 watt resistor across the output. Again you could try mounting one in a plug for a test.
39K gives you a safety margin on the 1/2 watt resistor as it dissipates .37 watts.
Can go lower if we go to a 1 watt resistor, but many find the 39K fine.
Title: Re: LED lighting
Post by: brwolfe on April 28, 2011, 09:29:13 PM
Thanks a bunch, I will give that a try.

Brian
Title: Re: LED lighting
Post by: Brian H on April 29, 2011, 06:00:50 AM
You may also want to look at the Modifying Local Control Section of this web site. If you have older appliance modules.
I have done the cut the diode and jumper in a few myself.
http://www.idobartana.com/hakb/index.htm
Title: Re: LED lighting
Post by: brwolfe on May 05, 2011, 12:12:30 AM
Wow, good info, I used the 39k resister tied to the output, that worked.
So now I will open a module up and follow that diode mod to disable current sensing, I think that is a better fix if it works.

Thanks a bunch again.

Brian
Title: Re: LED lighting
Post by: mcf3782 on June 20, 2011, 07:25:31 PM
If they are the older ones with Local Control Sensing. There are some modifications for them but if it is the relay on or off sensor. Defeating it causes a machine gun ratchet sound.

You may find it easier to try a 39k {39,000 OHM} 1/2 watt resistor across the output. Again you could try mounting one in a plug for a test.
39K gives you a safety margin on the 1/2 watt resistor as it dissipates .37 watts.
Can go lower if we go to a 1 watt resistor, but many find the 39K fine.

  Has anyone tried this with a wall switch? 

  I have an X10 wall switch (WS467 I think). It's been controlling the lights on my bedroom ceiling fan for years.  I'd like to switch from incandescent lamps to LED lamps in the fan. 

  Ikea has some GU10 base LED lamps for $10/each.  I have some standard Edison (E27) base to GU10 base converters.
If I leave an incandescent lamp in one of the 4 sockets, the switch works fine. If I put LED lamps in all 4 sockets, they just blink/flash; but never come on fully or go off fully.

  I have the ceiling fan disassembled at the moment to paint it, so the light kit part is easy to experiment with.  If I wire a standard 2-prong plug onto the light kit, put the same Ikea LED lamps, in the same Edison to GU10 converters and plug this assembly into an X10 2-prong Lamp Module, they turn on and off from a remote keypad just fine.

  I don't have a neutral wire available in the box in the wall where this switch lives, so I can't easily implement the "add a neutral to support CFL' mod; which would probably work just as well for LED lamps as CFL lamps.

  Anyone have any suggestions for modifications I can try with my existing switch (I have a couple available to test with), so I can make these lamps work without having to buy a new/different X10 switch?

 
Title: Re: LED lighting
Post by: dave w on June 20, 2011, 08:20:00 PM
The WS 467 has to draw operating power through the bulb filament. I believe the electronics in the WS467 idles at a couple of watts, so the 39K ohm resistor across the light circuit would not deliver nearly enough current to the switch electronics.  

How about a 7 or 10 watt "golf ball" http://www.1000bulbs.com/product/5747/IN-0007S11WH.html  bulb in one of the light sockets. I have success with WS467s and CFL bulbs when I use one of these in the circuit.
Title: Re: LED lighting
Post by: mcf3782 on June 20, 2011, 08:39:09 PM
I can now absolutely confirm what dave w said. The 39K resistor doesn't work.  After I posted my question, I dug around in my spare parts box and found a 33K and a 47K 1/2 watt resistor. Neither of them worked. :(

I could certainly put one of the 'golf ball' lamps in one of the sockets.  That would make the color temperature and light pattern in the room uneven.  Not ideal, but may be my only option.

Thanks for the reply, dave w!

If anyone  has any other suggestions; by all means please chime in.  I'm game for trying other approaches.
Title: Re: LED lighting
Post by: dave w on June 20, 2011, 09:33:12 PM
If anyone  has any other suggestions; by all means please chime in.  I'm game for trying other approaches.
Well you could always try something down in the 2K-5K ohm range until you find the right value that will keep the switch electronics active. The trouble is that resistor will be across full line voltage when you turn the lights on. So depending on value may be dissipating 5 to 10 watts. besides being a wire wound or a ceramic power resistor, it will need good ventilation. But I never liked putting "low" ohms across "high" volts, things turn brown and smoke over time.

You might consider a wire in  module up in the shroud (XPFM).
Title: Re: LED lighting
Post by: Brian H on June 21, 2011, 06:43:09 AM
There where modifications floating around. To add a Neutral Power Wire to the wall switches. So it didn't steal power through the load.
Though with X10 updating many of the modules to more current parts. The designs are completely different from the designs the modifications worked with.  ???
Title: Re: LED lighting
Post by: mcf3782 on June 21, 2011, 01:31:48 PM
My switches are all at least 8 years old, so they should be close to the design of the ones used for the mods.
I may look a little harder at how difficult it would be to get a neutral into the box where this switch lives. But that will have to wait until a day when it's not 98F here in Atlanta; since to do that I have to go crawl around in the attic.
*melts*

It may be time to start thinking about moving to Insteon.  I use misterhouse as my control program; and it's support for Insteon is getting more and more solid.  I hear rumors that it plays better with LEDs than X10 does.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone.  For now, I'm just going to live with having one of the four lamps in the ceiling fan fixture being an incandescent. That makes the switch happy.
Title: Re: LED lighting
Post by: Brian H on June 21, 2011, 01:56:08 PM
Insteon will also require a neutral in the switch box.

Though with Insteon. There is a two wire conversion kit.
Basically it is a SwitchLinc Relay and an InlineLinc Relay. Linked to each other.
You rewire the switch loop to Line and Neutral to power the SwitchLinc and cap its load wire.
Then you use the in fixture InlineLinc Relay to control the lights.

I guess you could use an X10 wall power controller also with the switch loop rewired to LIne and Load and an XPFM in the lights.