X10 Community Forum
🖥️ActiveHome Pro => ActiveHome Pro General => Topic started by: pvignola on March 20, 2011, 01:48:44 PM
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I have 2 lamps on lamp modules, these are regular lamps with incandescent bulbs in them. I have a TM751 on the second floor set to house code A which is the same house code the lamps are on. I have triple checked (or more) my settings in AHP and they are correct. These lamps will turn on, off, and dim fine with the remote but AHP will not turn them on or for some odd reason. I have many other lamps in the house that work well with AHP and the remote.
I have looked at the activity monitor and the CM15a is sending the correct commands to turn the lights on and off but the lights just aren't going on or off.
Any ideas as to why this isn't working with AHP?
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How old are the lamp modules? What version of AHP? Are the lamp modules correctly identified as soft start or not? Are you sure the signal from the CM15 is propagating on both phases?
Have you tried searching the forums for answers?
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Are you sending RF signals for the lights?
The TM751 responds to RF not PLC.
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Any ideas as to why this isn't working with AHP?
Yes.
You could have a phase coupling problem where the TM751 is on the same phase as the lamp modules but your CM15A is on the opposite phase.
You could have a electrical noise problem between the CM15A and the lamp modules. (computer, etc.)
You could have the CM15A plugged into a surge protector that blocks the X10 powerline commands.
You could have a bad CM15A. (this is easy to test for. Plug the lamp module into same outplet as CM15A and test.
Search "noise", "phase coupling", "signal sucker"
or go here:
http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm
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Thanks for the responses guys. I thought that if I used AHP (the latest version) it would send PLC not RF. I understand that the TM751 uses RF and that is why the remotes work.
As far as phases go and phase coupling I will have to read up as I know nothing about phase coupling. I can tell you that the TM751 and the lamps are on the same floor but I'm not sure about the phases or circuits they are on. Man this stuff can be complicated.
The lamp modules are brand new I just ordered them last week. The CM15a is not plugged into a surge protector so I think I am OK there.
@Dave W I will try to plug the TM751 into the same outlet as the CM15a and let you know what I find. Thanks for the suggestion.
@Knightrider How do I check if the modules are soft start or not in AHP? I also know nothing of phases like I mentioned above so I am not sure the CM15A is hitting both phases.
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When you turn on the lamp, does it come on instantly at full brightness, or does it "ramp up"? The instant on units are the older ones and have to be designated as such in the software.
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dave w I plugged the the TM751 into the same outlet as the CM15 was and it did't turn on the lamps either. I would deduce that it means I have a phase coupling issue is that right?
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Knightrider The come on at full brightness and ramp down at "off" What should I set them as in AHP?
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I'll answer for my esteemed friend Dave W, Sounds like a phase issue to me. Now we're getting somewhere, Boomer. My guess is that if your lamp modules are newer than 2008, they are soft start and you needent worry about my previous posts.
Phase issue is most likely the culprit.
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Wow I just read about phase coupling and most of the info went right over my head. I have a basic level of understanding of electricity. I have a home that will most likely never have any more than say 50 X10 devices in it. I plan to add the X10 security system at some point but I believe that is mostly RF device so my system may never have more 32 power line devices. Right now I am using only 12 power line devices.
I am at a loss as to what to do. Any suggestions?
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What they mean about phases is most houses receive electric power at 220 volts AC, in the house at the circuit breakers that is split into 2 110 volt phases. X10 powerline signal cannot cross the phases without some kind of phase coupler. If you do a search here for "phase couplers" you will find what you need to use.
What kind of stove does your house have? Let us know as there is easy test if you have an electric stove.
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... What kind of stove does your house have? Let us know as there is easy test if you have an electric stove.
220V Electric stoves, ovens, dryers, or water heaters can *usually* be used to test if a phase coupler will help.
When they are on, these devices generally bridge the two phases together, so X10 signals can pass across.
However, this might not be a fool-proof test for you, as some 220V devices may not work well for passing X10 signals through.
If you have any plug-in 200v appliances (usually only a stove or an electric dryer would fit into this category), you should be able to buy a plug-in phase coupler that goes in between the appliance and the socket, which will pass the signals between the two.
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Wow I just read about phase coupling and most of the info went right over my head. I have a basic level of understanding of electricity. I have a home that will most likely never have any more than say 50 X10 devices in it. I plan to add the X10 security system at some point but I believe that is mostly RF device so my system may never have more 32 power line devices. Right now I am using only 12 power line devices.
I am at a loss as to what to do. Any suggestions?
Before doing anything else, make sure your CM15A is set to transceive the house codes you are using. The control is under Tools/Hardware configuration in AHP.
As Noam explained, any 220V-240V appliances couples to both 120V phases in your home. But they only "bridge" X10 signals when they are on. If you have a 220V stove, turn the oven on and use a remote to send to the CM15A (now set to transceive) Unplug the TM751 for this test, otherwise it will trample the PLC codes coming from the CM15A. If the lights start responding you likely have a phase coupling issue. Unplug the CM15A and try the TM751 in same outlet, The TM751 has a slightly higher PLC signal output than the CM15A. If the light do not respond, you could still have a "noise maker" on the same circuit as the TM751/CM15A. Constant electrical noise can be generated by switching power supplies which are in everything now days. Typical culprits are power bricks for printers, notebooks, etc. flat screen TVs, computers, cell phone chargers, etc. etc. etc. You can try unplugging the suspects and retesting.
If you plan on expanding your system you need a "Repeater". A repeater detects a X10 signal on one phase, amplifies it on that phase and also bridges it to the other phase. A high output repeater can many times over come a noise problem by shear brute force (boosting the X10 signal to a higher level than the noise), eliminating the need of a lot of filters on suspect noise makers. IMHO the XTBIIR is the best on the market. Next is the ACT CR234. Both are pricey. An alternative is the X10 PRO "XPCR" which I have seen on EBay for under 20 bucks...cheap enough to just buy as a test. These repeaters listed must all be wired into your electrical panel. Smarthome.com has a repeater which plugs in to a three prong 220V dryer outlet.
What you are seeing are very typical "start-up" problems and are fixable, it just takes a little detective work.
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I would suggest replacing any TM751 with a RR501 as the 751 is NOT "polite" it sends PLC signals as soon as it gets the RF signals. The RR501 is "polite" it waits to see if the line is clear before sending (about a second and a half).
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I would suggest replacing any TM751 with a RR501 as the 751 is NOT "polite" it sends PLC signals as soon as it gets the RF signals. The RR501 is "polite" it waits to see if the line is clear before sending (about a second and a half).
Dan -
That's a good point, but since both the TM751 and the CM15A are unable to control the lights from that location using PLC, it sounds to me like it is a phase issue and/or a noise issue on the powerline. The "rudeness" of the TM751 doesn't come into play when sending PLC straight from the CM15A.
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Thanks guys for all of your responses. I have an electric dryer I will try to turn it on and see what happens. My stove is gas so I guess that is out for this test.
I will also look at smarthome.com to see what they offer that might be a simple solution.
I will let you know if the dry test works out.
Thanks again you guys are the best!
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If the dryer test works, then you should be able to buy a coupler or a coupler/repeater from Smarthome that plugs into the dryer socket. Just make sure you get the correct type (3-prong or 4-prong), and that you have enough clearance to plug it in.
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Thanks Noam. I have some laundry to do so I will try the dry test later. ;D. I have a newer energy efficient Samsung dryer do you know if that will make an difference for this test?
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It shouldn't make a difference, as long as it is 220, and is bridging both phases when it runs.
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They dryer test did not work. I used the dryer but it had no effect on the lights on the other phase. I guess I may have to look into wiring a phase coupler in.
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They dryer test did not work. I used the dryer but it had no effect on the lights on the other phase. I guess I may have to look into wiring a phase coupler in.
CONSIDER A NOISE PROBLEM.
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Ok so I opened my electric panel and took a look at how the breakers were arranged. All of the outlets I want to control are on the same side of the panel so I would assume that means they are on the same phase would that be correct? If so Dave W seems to be correct in that it may be a noise problem. On the other side of the panel is nothing or interest for me from a X10 control perspective so maybe I don't need to worry about phase coupling?
I tried moving the TM751 to different outlets downstairs which is on the same "side" of the panel as the lamps upstairs and it worked in some spots but not others. I one case one lamp turned on while the other didn't.
Based on my very limited knowledge it seems like noise is a least a factor.
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Ok so I opened my electric panel and took a look at how the breakers were arranged. All of the outlets I want to control are on the same side of the panel so I would assume that means they are on the same phase would that be correct?
NO! It depends on the manufacturer. It is *most common* to have vertical alternating breaker slots on opposite phase. i.e. Left side of panel, top breaker is phase "A", next breaker directly below is phase "B". This is the most common layout but is not inclusive. Your could be different...what is the brand?
One way you might be able to tell is: Look at your dryer breaker, is it a double wide vertically? If so, alternating breakers vertically aligned are opposite phase. This allows a single double wide breaker to pick up both phases for 220V appliances.
You still could have a phase coupling problem although the fact that your running dryer did not help your problem insinuates it is noise, but if your Samsung dryer has a DC variable speed motor it could be generating enough noise to prevent X10 commands from successfully coupling across the heating elements. Do you have a 220V water heater? If so, wait until someone takes a shower and try your test again.
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Ok so I opened my electric panel and took a look at how the breakers were arranged. All of the outlets I want to control are on the same side of the panel so I would assume that means they are on the same phase would that be correct?
NO! It depends on the manufacturer. It is most common to have vertical alternating breaker slots on opposite phase. Look at your dryer breaker, is it a double wide vertically? If so, alternating breakers vertically aligned are opposite phase. This allows a double wide breaker to pick up both phases for 220V appliances.
The dryer breaker is double stacked one on top of the other horizontally.
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The dryer breaker is double stacked one on top of the other horizontally.
Then most likely your phases are arranged in alternating horizontal rows.
The first, third, fifth, etc. rows are on phase "A", while the second, fourth, sixth, etc. are on phase "B."
Armed with that knowledge, you should try your test again.
First try to put the TM751 on the same phase as the module you are trying to control. If that works, try moving both of them to the other phase.
If either experiment doesn't work, then you probably have something causing noise, or sucking up the signal on whichever phase isn't working.
You can then try shutting off one breaker at at time (not the ones with the devices you are testing of course - or move them to other breakers during the test), and see if you can figure out which breaker contains the device(s) that is/are causing the problem. Isolating those, using filters, would probably help improve your system.
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The dryer breaker is double stacked one on top of the other horizontally.
You mean vertically (up and down) don't you? If so, then you can determine out what circuits are on what phase by following the example of the dryer breaker, it is straddling both phases. So plug a light into the same phase as the CM15A and see if it works. If it does, buy a repeater...even the XPCR for $18 off Ebay. If the llight still does not work, start unplugging "possible" noise makers including all CFL bulbs. This sound like a daunting task but what I would start with is everything plugged into same circuit as the CM15A and retest.
OOPS sorry Noam, didn't see you.
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I will give that a shot. Does the physical distance between the TM751 and the lamps come into play here? I would guess it would if it's a noise but I'm not really sure.
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You mean vertically (up and down) don't you? If so, then you can determine out what circuits are on what phase by following the example of the dryer breaker, it is straddling both phases. So plug a light into the same phase as the CM15A and see if it works. If it does, buy a repeater...even the XPCR for $18 off Ebay. If the llight still does not work, start unplugging "possible" noise makers including all CFL bulbs. This sound like a daunting task but what I would start with is everything plugged into same circuit as the CM15A and retest.
OOPS sorry Noam, didn't see you.
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I mean that the breaker has two "pieces" one stacked on top of the other. Like this:
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| 1 |
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| 2 |
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I have 8 lamps connected now that work from the CM15a I am going to look to see what phase they are on perhaps the will all have a common phase.
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I mean that the breaker has two "pieces" one stacked on top of the other. Like this:
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| 1 |
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| 2 |
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I have 8 lamps connected now that work from the CM15a I am going to look to see what phase they are on perhaps the will all have a common phase.
Yes, you have it now. It will at least help determine if phase or noise.
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Ok the more troubleshooting I do the less this all makes sense. Here is how the breakers are setup
On the left hand side of the panel we have:
1,2 Dryer
8 Foyer
9 Family room
10 Loft
11 Bed 2 + 3
12 Master
So here is what I have setup:
In the family room I have 2 lamps modules and they work via AHP and the CMA15 is plugged into on of the outlets
In the loft I have 2 lamp modules that work via the TM751 but not AHP
In Bed 2 I have 2 lamp modules that work via AHP
In the master I have 3 lamp modules and one socket rocket all but one of the lamps works via AHP which I found a bit strange and may be noise related?
Based on your feed back it seems that the master, Loft, and Foyer should be on one phase while the Bedroom 2 and family room should be on another.
I took the TM751 out of the running and plugged one of the lamps that didn't work in the loft into Bed 2 and it worked via AHP---ah so it's a phase issue right? Well it would seem as if that is one of the issues.
One would also think that if I plugged the TM751 into the foyer that the lamps in the loft would work via remote right? Well one lamp worked and the other didn't when I did that.
The fact that the master bed modules work via AHP leads me to believe that there isn't a phase issue since they are on different phases. I am most confused right now.
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Is there a diagram on the front cover of the breaker box?
Sometimes it shows what positions are on each of the two line wires.
Even if all the devices are on the same phase and different circuits. You still can have noise or signal absorbers {suckers} that can make things not work or be intermittent.
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pvignola
I'm not sure I understand your numbering. Are those the numbers stamped on the panel faceplate? ( the breakers protrude through the face plate).
Maybe this will help. You have identified the first two breaker slots as your dryer. So you understand this "double wide" or "double thick" 220V breaker takes up two slots. Now count *slots* downward from the top left slot. All even slots are "A' phase and all odd slots are "B" phase.
Depending on the manufacter the breaker directly to the right *may* be the same phase as the breaker on the left (maintaining the same plane). My old Cutler Hammer panel is like this. Most GE panels that I have seen are like this. Federal panels may not maintain same phase on same plane.
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On my panel the main switch is on the bottom so I started count from there. The number are my own system based on what is on the left side of the panel for breakers. I'm sorry guys it's been a long day and my migraine medication makes me a bit loopy. I just used my number as an illustration of the left side of the panel assuming the breakers on the same side alternate phases as you go up the panel (or down I suppose).
The numbering on the panel is
The right side bottom is labeled 1
The left side bottom is labeled 2 and they follow that pattern
So if that is the case does it mean that the breaker on the left side number 2 is on the same or opposite phase as number 1? I assumed that the breakers on the left side labeled 2 and 4 were on different phases (the are physically on top of each other).
So the numbering I used was just starting at the left bottom and enumerating by one for each slot on the left side. So I can revise that to be
2 + 4 Dryer
16 Foyer
18 Family Room
20 Loft
22 Bed 2+3
24 Master
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OOPS sorry Noam, didn't see you.
At just over 6 feet tall, I don't hear THAT all too often. ;-)
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This CAN still be noise issues.
Imagine, for a moment, that your CM15A is your friend, standing at one end of a long hallway, singing for everyone standing along the hallway.
The farther you go down the hall, the harder it is to hear him.
If someone takes a stereo and plays it really loud halfway down the hall, then the people beyond the stereo won't be able to hear the singing, while those close to the singer will. Those between the singer and the stereo, but closer to the stereo, might also not be able to hear.
The stereo creates noise that drowns out the singing.
Now, imagine if instead of a stereo, someone takes a mattress, and uses it to block the hallway.
Everyone between the singer and the mattress should be able to hear, but those beyond the mattress will have a much harder time.
The mattress absorbs some of the sound.
You might have both things going on at the same time.
The best way to test for this, is to turn off one circuit at a time, and see if one circuit seems to have either a "stereo" or a "mattress" on it.
If you don't find any single circuit, then do the opposite - turn them ALL off (except the ones you have the controller and devices on), and then turn them back on one at a time to see when the problem comes back.
Once you find a suspect circuit (or circuits), then turn off all lights, unplug every device on that circuit, and test. Start plugging things back in until you find the offending device. You'll probably need to filter that.
That's one way to tackle the noise / signal suckers.
Bridging the two phases might help, too. In the example above, there is another hallway connecting at a right-angle to the first one. The singer is now all the way at the other end of the second hallway, making his singing very hard to hear at the end of the first hallway.
A bridge/coupler/repeater is the equivalent of giving him a microphone, and putting a speaker at the intersection of the two hallways, where he was standing before. That might be enough to get the singing past the stereo and the mattress.
Now, a booster like the XTB-IIR (See Jeff Volp's page here: http://jvde.us/xtb/xtb_overview.htm) does something a little different.
It moves the singer back to the middle where the two hallways meet. However, it gives the singer a loud bullhorn. The singer's voice is now loud enough to be heard over most stereos, and can get through most mattresses. Putting it in the center helps, too, since there is less distance for the voice to travel now.
(I hope my examples make sense - I ran it by my wife first ;)).
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The right side bottom is labeled 1
The left side bottom is labeled 2 and they follow that pattern
I assumed that the breakers on the left side labeled 2 and 4 were on different phases (the are physically on top of each other)
Yes, now that I understand, your breakers are numbered like my panel. All odd numbers are one phase, all even numbers are the other phase. But again since your dryer did not make any improvement I (like Noam) lean towards it being a noise issue. And a repeater will solve a phase coupling problems and will likely improve a noise problem. In the case of a XTBIIR repeater it will be a dramatic improvement.
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... All odd numbers are one phase, all even numbers are the other phase...
Not sure if this is correct. Based on my understanding, the breakers are numbered like this:
1 2
3 4
5 6
7 8
9 10
11 12
In this case, 1&2 are on one phase, and 3&4 are on the other phase.
My breaker box is set up like this, too.
If, however, you number the breakers like this:
1 7
2 8
3 9
4 10
5 11
6 12
THEN, the even breakers are on one phase, and the odd ones on the other.
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Yes you are right. My statement of Odd breakers being one phase and even breakers being the other is incorrect for pvignola's description.
pvignola needs to look at vertical pairs to determine which phase each breaker is on.
Thanks.
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pvignola needs to look at vertical pairs to determine which phase each breaker is on.
You meant horizontal pairs (the two breakers next two each other in each row), right? ;-)
For most types of breaker boxes mounted vertically (as is most common), there are two breakers (or slots where breakers could be installed) in each horizontal row, and those rows alternate between the two phases.
If the breaker box is mounted sideways (which I've seen in some cases - I think code allows that in some places), then the breakers are installed two in each column, and the columns alternate between the phases. At least this is how evry breaker box I've ever seen operates.
My old breaker box worked this way, but with a twist. There was no "main" breaker to shut off the whole house (the panel was installed in 1963).
Instead, there were two sets of bus bars. The upper set fed all of the 220V double-pole breakers. The wires coming in from the street connected directly to the tops of the upper set of bus bars.
One of these double breakers was wired as the "main" breaker for the rest of the (single) circuits in the house. The wires from that pair of breakers fed down to the lower set of bus bars. You could shut off all of the single breakers by just flipping that one breaker off. However, the rest of the double-pole breakers would still be on.
When we went from 100-amp to 200-amp service a few years ago, part of the process was replacing the breaker box, and all the wiring out to the roofline, where the power company's wires connected in. The new preaker box has a HUGE "main" breaker at the top. Power comes into that from the street, and then feeds out of it to the bus bars.
I like that setup a lot better, because I can shut off everything if I'm working in the breaker box, instead of leaving half the box energized.
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You meant horizontal pairs (the two breakers next two each other in each row), right? ;-)
No, but describing horizontal rows as the same phase would work also..
I meant vertical (up and down) pairs will straddle both phases, starting with the dryer breaker. Following that pattern pvignola should be able to determine which phase each of his single breakers are on.
Right now I think pvignola's best action would be to just get a repeater, especially if he plans on expanding his system to as much as 50 modules. A repeater would couple both phases and if he does have a noise problem even the $20 XPCR might help.
I have never seen a panel with the numbering starting with the bottom breakers(?). Learn something every day here.
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I have never seen a panel with the numbering starting with the bottom breakers(?). Learn something every day here.
Unless the panel was installed upside-down?
How'd you like my explanation of noise, signal suckers, the phase bridge, and the booster?
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Unless the panel was installed upside-down?
How'd you like my explanation of noise, signal suckers, the phase bridge, and the booster?
Yes, except I would have thought pvignola would have mentioned that since the panel numbers would be stamped/printed on the face plate upside down. Could be the explaination however. ???
Yeah the explaination had great analogies that even the most "technically challanged" can mentally picture. save that as a cut and paste and use again.
Reminds of some of the great "Uncle Phil" anaologies. Too bad ACT is no longer pushing X10 or A10 products, Phil doesn't teach or write about X10 protocol anymore.
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My panel may well be installed upside down :-)
Noam that was a great explanation! Very well crafted and painted a vivid picture in my mind.
You guys have been so great thank you all. I am going to do some more troubleshooting this weekend time permitting.
I will let you know what I find out.
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Ok guys thanks to all of your help I have figured it out. I looked at the most likely cause of my issues. I have 3 older power bars that are connected upstairs. I disconnected them one at a time and discovered that they are the source of my problems. When I unplugged one of them from the loft both of the lights now worked from both the remote and AHP. I had one light in the bedroom that was not responding to AHP commands and I unplugged the power bar I had plugged into the bedroom outlet and viola that lamp worked too. So now I can control all of the lights in my home via remote and AHP.
On a separate note I did the CM15A 9.5 inch wide mod and it improved the range quite a bit. I now have most of my 1800+ sq/ft home covered with the CM15A. There is one dead zone in the bedroom furthest away from the CM15A. I plan to use my TM751 plugged in upstairs to combat that issue.
So are the old power bars sucking signal or producing noise (or maybe both)? I can buy filters if I still want to use those power bars if it's a noise issue right?
I can't thank you guys enough for all of your help you don't have any idea how happy I am that I have these issues resolved!
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The old power bars could be making noise but more likely sucking the signals.
A filter rated at the proper amperage would be a help.
TM751 is not polite and technically can step on other power line signals. If the CM15A and TM751 don't transmit together. It maybe OK.
The RR501 is polite and can also be controlled by power line signals. Many online dealers have them fairly reasonable in price.
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TM751 is not polite and technically can step on other power line signals. If the CM15A and TM751 don't transmit together. It maybe OK.
The RR501 is polite and can also be controlled by power line signals. Many online dealers have them fairly reasonable in price.
The TM751 not being polite was also noted in an earlier post. It was said that it waits 1.5 seconds before sending a command. Does it actually poll the lines to see if there is a signal currently being sent before it sends? If not what good would waiting do? Isn't it possible that in 1.5 seconds the CM15A might be sending a command?
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The TM751 has no power line receiver in it and has no way to know if a signal is on the power lines. It just merrily blasts a signal on the power line. Stepping on anything.
The RR501 if it see power line traffic waits until the line is clear. I believe by a random generated time. So if you had more than one they both would not time out together. The CM15A is also polite.
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Thanks Brian for the explanation.
I have been reading as often as I can and the more I read the more I realize there is so much to learn. I really love X10 automation so far. For all of the pros and cons I feel it's a great system if you can put the time into doing things right. This forum is a huge help in that area. Keep up the great work guys.
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I mentioned that I had made the CM15A antenna mod with a 9.5 inch piece of wire. Well after reading more on these forums I saw that others used 18.5 inches instead. So I added another piece of 9 inch wire to my mod and now I don't have any dead spots in the house that I can find. Man life is good.
All I did was snip the very end of the CM15A antenna exposing a bit of the wire from the antenna and connect a piece of 9.5 inch stranded wire (from and old parallel printer cord). That worked pretty well but after I added the additional piece of 9 inch wire (the same as before) I got rid of any dead zones that I previously had.
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I mentioned that I had made the CM15A antenna mod with a 9.5 inch piece of wire. Well after reading more on these forums I saw that others used 18.5 inches instead. So I added another piece of 9 inch wire to my mod and now I don't have any dead spots in the house that I can find. Man life is good.
All I did was snip the very end of the CM15A antenna exposing a bit of the wire from the antenna and connect a piece of 9.5 inch stranded wire (from and old parallel printer cord). That worked pretty well but after I added the additional piece of 9 inch wire (the same as before) I got rid of any dead zones that I previously had.
The "Correct" 18.5-inch CM15A antenna mod is actually to add a "reflector," not to extend the antenna itself.
This is actually a lit simpler, and doesn't void the warranty.
Simply take an 18.5-inch length of stiff wire (coat-hanger works, as does #12 or #14 electrical wiring), and place it ALONGSIDE the CM15A's antenna. Line the bottom of the wire up with the "elbow" at the bottom of the CM15A's antenna. This mod doesn't require an electrical connection between the new wire and the antenna. Most people use a bit of tape to hold the two together.
I was skeptical at first, but this has gotten rid of all of the dead spots in my house. It really does work.
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Thanks Noam. >!
I figured that the CM15A can be had for relativity short money if I messed it up and I believe I have a spare packed in my garage somewhere. I read about the 18.5" coat hanger mod but since I didn't have one and for some other reason which escapes me right now I decided to dive in and clip the antenna.
I'm not sure of all of the technical details (reflector vs. added antenna length) I did read something about a 1/2 wave antenna. I just figured I would post my results not as a "How to" but more as a "This is what I did" for a reference point.
You guys have been so much help and this forum has a wealth of info to be uncovered. I'm glad I found it!