X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Other Automation Systems => Powerline Control Reliability => Topic started by: JeffVolp on January 23, 2012, 10:37:06 AM
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We have a solution that has virtually eliminated the smart meter problem at one home in the Duke Cincinnati service area. That particular smart meter was communicating with its data aggregator at 75KHz and 86KHz. Those strong signals were near enough to the 120KHz passband that they were interfering with X10 communication.
Across-line filters in the home, even deep notch filters tuned to the smart meter frequency, were not sufficient in themselves. One thing observed was that the smart meter apparently transmitted an even stronger signal when an attenuator was placed across the line. And there appeared to be more communication attempts, increasing the likelihood of corrupting X10 signals.
My customer found a low-frequency "clamshell" ferrite filter to clamp over the incoming service entrance cables to add impedance to the smart meter signal. Initial testing was done with one filter clamped over each hot lead. Along with a filter to provide a low impedance load to the smart meter signal, a pair of the ferrite filters was the first step in restoring acceptable X10 operation.
Since then we have gone through a series of different internal filters and added more ferrite filters to the service entrance cables. The recommended solution is to use 2 or 3 ferrite filters on each of the "hot" service entrance cables, and a single shunt filter across the incoming 240VAC. The X10 XPNR is effective for the shunt filter, but a modified version of the XTB-TSS (Tuned Signal Sucker) performed better, particularly at the 86KHz frequency. Since that is closer to the X10 passband, it is more of a problem.
Best performance was actually obtained with an 86KHz notch filter across the 240VAC. However, tuning of a series-resonant notch is very sensitive to powerline inductance. The configuration of the installation being tested had relatively low inductance between the smart meter and where the filters were being installed, so the detuning from line inductance was not too severe. The series-resonant notch filter may not be the best general solution because of its sensitivity to detuning from powerline inductance.
I now have a small stock of the ferrite filters, with more on backorder. I will be purchasing parts to assemble more of the 250VAC XTB-TSS in the near future. Please contact me directly if you are interested in this fix.
Jeff
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Jeff,
First of all, you just moved up a notch on my hero list.
Second, is this really the financial responsibility of the homeowner to undo damage done by the utility?
BTW, it was John Wayne that just got knocked down a peg.
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Second, is this really the financial responsibility of the homeowner to undo damage done by the utility?
Unfortunately, that is one question that I can't answer.
In reality, the utility company didn't "damage" anything. They just rendered equipment that worked fine for years unable to function properly anymore. Gee, I have several TVs and DVRs that are also in that category. (No, I don't own a HDTV flat screen yet.)
Jeff
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In reality, the utility company didn't "damage" anything. They just rendered equipment that worked fine for years unable to function properly anymore. Gee, I have several TVs and DVRs that are also in that category. (No, I don't own a HDTV flat screen yet.)
Jeff
Point well taken. It's just the thought that I can choose to purchase items that dirty up the powerline or not. Not sure I have a choice when it comes to a smartmeter install.
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I have been struggling with Duke since they installed the "smart meter" on my house last year. My X-10 system immediately began randomly activating lights. I can't get anyone to talk to me about a solution. I have seen some posts that suggest that in some cases Duke has done something to alleviate the problem. I am hoping that someone can direct me to the proper resource.
Bummed in Cincinnati.
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I offer a kit that includes 4 clamp-on clamshell filters and a shunt filter that goes directly across the 240V. This solution worked at a home in the Cincinnati area.
I had several communications with Duke engineers regarding our efforts. One of the engineers said they would be ordering a kit. That was a several months ago, and I never heard back from them.
Since the clamp-on filters must be installed over the hot service entrance cables inside the distribution panel, this must either be done by an electrician or someone comfortable working directly inside the panel. The shunt filter is installed across a 240V breaker.
If you want further information on this solution, please contact me directly.
Jeff
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Sometimes they work and sometimes they don't.
Where is a link to find different filters. X-10 always puts a CM15 in my cart and not the filter.
I do have a smart meter but would also like to block noise from 2 desktops here.
Thanks
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I tried looking at three independent automation dealers sites. All of them don't have the X10Pro XPPF filter and the X10Shop lists it as discontinued. That maybe why you get the incorrect item in you cart. Which is strange as the CM15A is also discontinued.
The Smarthome 1626-10 10 amp filter is what some use. I have one on my UPS for the computing gear and the unfiltered outlet on the front. Has my controller in it.
http://www.smarthome.com/1626-10/FilterLinc-10-Amp-Plug-In-Noise-Filter/p.aspx
The ACT AF120 is a 15 amp filter that also is being used.
http://www.smarthome.com/4845ACF/ACT-AF120-15-Amp-Plug-In-Noise-Filter/p.aspx
Another search did find a vendor with the XPPF. Just remember they get warm and smell if pushed to their 5 amp rating.
http://www.thehomeautomationstore.com/xppf.html
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I am a few weeks away from offering my own 10A filter. It functions as a low-pass like the XPPF. It does much better at rejecting out of band noise than the other high-current notch filters.
To keep the cost as low as possible, the PCB will just be bare bones (no silk screen or solder mask). My target price is $29 for the kit, and $39 for an assembled unit.
Jeff
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Thanks for the replies
I will try to find the source of the noise this weekend. Will probably get a few Smart Home filters.
Jeff I did want to look into getting the Smart meter filter too.
I think I saw your web page, but can't find it at this moment.
Also not looking forward to removing a live wire. I've done it before, but still don't like it much.
Would be nice if there was a clamp on type, like the clamp on amp meters.
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Jeff I did want to look into getting the Smart meter filter too.
I think I saw your web page, but can't find it at this moment.
Also not looking forward to removing a live wire. I've done it before, but still don't like it much.
Would be nice if there was a clamp on type, like the clamp on amp meters.
What I offer in the smart meter rejection kit are four clamp-on ferrite filters that go over the hot service entrance cables (two on each), and then a shunt filter that goes across a 240V breaker to prevent the smart meter signal from propagating further into the home. There is no need to remove the neutral lead like must be done to install the X10 PZZ01. The XTB website is: http://jvde.us/xtb_index.htm
Jeff
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BGE (Baltimore Gas & Electric) is beginning the roll out of Smart Meters (electric and gas) but the Maryland Public Service Commission is going to force BGE to allow opt-out from them. Apparently the PSC discovered that Smart Meters do more than just block X10 signals, they do other things the public don't want.
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Apparently the PSC discovered that Smart Meters do more than just block X10 signals, they do other things the public don't want.
Interesting. Do you know what the public did not like, like privacy issues?
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BGE (Baltimore Gas & Electric) is beginning the roll out of Smart Meters (electric and gas) but the Maryland Public Service Commission is going to force BGE to allow opt-out from them. Apparently the PSC discovered that Smart Meters do more than just block X10 signals, they do other things the public don't want.
Are the *specific* models that BG&E is rolling out known to cause problems with X10?
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BGE (Baltimore Gas & Electric) is beginning the roll out of Smart Meters (electric and gas) but the Maryland Public Service Commission is going to force BGE to allow opt-out from them. Apparently the PSC discovered that Smart Meters do more than just block X10 signals, they do other things the public don't want.
Are the *specific* models that BG&E is rolling out known to cause problems with X10?
We don't know, BGE has not yet announced what Smart Meters they will be rolling out and the PSC has not announced what the "other things" are, it may be the "smart gas meters".
BGE stopped using meter readers about 10 years ago, the house key they had (our meters are inside the house) was mailed back to us at that time.
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I like the smart meters because they don't have to come to read it, get my German Shepherd barking. But I have to get my X-10 more reliable.
Yesterday was a good day. Wanted to turn off my desk light from the living room, and it worked. >!
Jeff, I did not find the smart meter rejection kit yet. Is there a drill down link?
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Jeff, I did not find the smart meter rejection kit yet. Is there a drill down link?
Sorry, there is no direct link. It is about 3/4 down the XTB Ordering page labeled "Echelon Smart Meter Rejection Kit":
http://jvde.us/xtb/xtb_ordering.htm
Jeff
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Not sure yet which one to use.
4 "Clam Shell" Ferrite filters & 1 XPNR Noise Reducer
4 "Clam Shell" Ferrite filters & a custom 240V XTB-TSS
Do these come assembled, ready to use?
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Not sure yet which one to use.
4 "Clam Shell" Ferrite filters & 1 XPNR Noise Reducer
4 "Clam Shell" Ferrite filters & a custom 240V XTB-TSS
Do these come assembled, ready to use?
The XPNR is a standard X10 product (at least it was). The custom 240V XTB-TSS is unit that I assemble myself. The smart meter version is essentially a fused very large X2-rated capacitor. Testing shows it works somewhat better than the XPNR to shunt the smart meter signal. It also functions as very low impedance passive coupler.
I am out of stock on cases for the XTB-TSS right now, but more should be here late this week.
Jeff
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OK, let me know when they come in. I'm also interested in the gizmo that ? repeats the signal to the other phase.
I'm looking to get the most reliability from my X-10 system. A lot because I like my new App. It works well. I can see the status change on AHP, but the lights fail at times due to line noise or signal loss.
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Interesting as of 6/1/12 Baltimore Gas & Electric is converting to Smart Electric and Gas Meters, however they will put a customer on a "no Smart Meter" list if they want to. I got my name on the "no smart meter list. I gave them the problems others had with smart meters screwing up X10 and the cost to the user to fix it. According recently over 2500 BGE customers are already on the list.
Smart Meters are for the companies, not the users. All the users want is their electric and gas service.
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Interesting as of 6/1/12 Baltimore Gas & Electric is converting to Smart Electric and Gas Meters, however they will put a customer on a "no Smart Meter" list if they want to. Smart Meters are for the companies, not the users. All the users want is their electric and gas service.
I wonder if they will try and charge you more?
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I don't think the Maryland Public Service Commission, which regulates what BGE can and cannot do will not allow BGE to charge non-smart meter users more as they install more and more Smart Meters in the system. The PSC is not a friend of BGE and never has been.
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I just got off the phone with PEPCO (DC/Maryland).
They told me that the two meters they are installing in my area are the Landis+Gyr Focus AXR, and the GE 1210+C.
I don't see a GE 1210+C, but I see an I-210+C (understandable mistake). The GE looks to be a single-phase meter, so I'm guessing I'll be getting the AXR.
Other than the one post here, I haven't seen any other reports of X10 problems with it, which is a good sign.
However, they don't know when we will be getting the new meter. Their goal is to have the entire region done by the end of 2012.
Well, I got the letter in the mail that PEPCO will be installing SmartMeters in my area in the immediate future.
I called and asked what type of meter they are installing, and I got through to one of the engineers that handles any problems that come up during or after the installs.
He "almost" confirmed the model numbers I was told back in November (he said, "I don't have the model numbers in front of me, but those sound right to me"), and told me that in the 8 years he has been installing these meters across the country, he hasn't heard of any reports of interference with PLC-based systems. He said he is "somewhat" familiar with X10 automation.
According to him (and PEPCO's website) the meters use wireless signals to talk back to an access point on a nearby pole, and from there use cellular or phone lines to communicate back to the utility. He told me they are NOT putting any signals on the powerline, in either direction, from the meter.
I scheduled an appointment for first thing next Monday morning, which will give me an opportunity to test my X10 system right away after the meter is installed (before the installer leaves). If something doesn't work, I'll ask the installer to put the old meter back.
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According to him (and PEPCO's website) the meters use wireless signals to talk back to an access point on a nearby pole, and from there use cellular or phone lines to communicate back to the utility. He told me they are NOT putting any signals on the powerline, in either direction, from the meter.
It should be fine if it does not communicate over the powerline.
Jeff
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According to him (and PEPCO's website) the meters use wireless signals to talk back to an access point on a nearby pole, and from there use cellular or phone lines to communicate back to the utility. He told me they are NOT putting any signals on the powerline, in either direction, from the meter.
It should be fine if it does not communicate over the powerline.
Jeff
Yes. My hope is that when they say "it does not communicate over the powerline," that it ACTUALLY does not communicate over the powerline.
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As a add to my last post, I just want to mention that BGE stopped using meter readers about 8 years ago as they mailed my house key back to me. (nobody was home during the day, so BGE had to have a key) I still get bills, so BGE is using something (probably truck mounted) to read my electric and gas meters (both are inside).
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As a add to my last post, I just want to mention that BGE stopped using meter readers about 8 years ago as they mailed my house key back to me. (nobody was home during the day, so BGE had to have a key) I still get bills, so BGE is using something (probably truck mounted) to read my electric and gas meters (both are inside).
My gas meter is inside. Washington Gas has a remote reader device, that they can read from the street.
they came a few years ago to change it out with a somewhat newer model.
I don't know exactly how it works, but I guess there is some sort of long-life battery inside (unless it uses the rotation of the little cog that drives the wheels to charge a battery or a capacitor or something).
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My electric meter is in the workroom (west side) and the gas meter is in a closet (east side). Always has been that way as I grew up in the house and when my Mother re-married (my father dropped dead of 2 heart attacks (he was a heavy smoker) two weeks before my 21st birthday) and my wife and I moved in 1983 and raised our kids there.
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I scheduled an appointment for first thing next Monday morning, which will give me an opportunity to test my X10 system right away after the meter is installed (before the installer leaves). If something doesn't work, I'll ask the installer to put the old meter back.
Well, my plan didn't quite work out as I had hoped. Due to last weekend's storm, and my inept power company (Pepco), I didn't have any power on Monday morning (we were out from Friday night until Wednesday morning - 104 hours total).
So, I rescheduled for this coming Monday morning. I'll report back as soon as I can test it, with the model information and my results.
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I have just had a smart meter installed by Duke in the Cincinnati Area. Have issues with units turning on a t radem. What is the fix?
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What switch or device models are affected?
The problem appears to be only with certain X10 made switches which have a lengthy history of similar problems predating Smartmeters.
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I have just had a smart meter installed by Duke in the Cincinnati Area. Have issues with units turning on at random. What is the fix?
We developed a smart meter rejection kit that is described earlier in this thread. It is comprised of 4 special low-frequency clamp-on "clampshell" ferrite filters that go over the hot service entrance cables, and a low impedance shunt that connects directly across a 240V breaker to attenuate the residual signal that leaks through the ferrite filters.
This information was provided to Duke, but they apparently weren't interested.
Jeff
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Also, Duke will let you opt out of the Smartmeter. I think all those sharing the transformer have to agree.
Where, in the Cincinnati area, are you located? I am in Fort Mitchell, where Duke tested these meters about 5 years ago before deploying them in the rest of the area and I've had no problems - but I also have no X10 switches.
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I scheduled an appointment for first thing next Monday morning, which will give me an opportunity to test my X10 system right away after the meter is installed (before the installer leaves). If something doesn't work, I'll ask the installer to put the old meter back.
Well, my plan didn't quite work out as I had hoped. Due to last weekend's storm, and my inept power company (Pepco), I didn't have any power on Monday morning (we were out from Friday night until Wednesday morning - 104 hours total).
So, I rescheduled for this coming Monday morning. I'll report back as soon as I can test it, with the model information and my results.
I just realized I never came back to this thread to report on what happened.
Pepco did indeed install a Landis+Gyr Focus AXR meter, and I haven't had any issues with it at all.
I don't think they have turned on all of the remote monitoring on it yet, but from what I've read - none of that goes over the powerline, so it isn't supposed to affect my X10.
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Problem seems to be very randem, Using wall type X10 switches and plug in lighting units. At radem times they turn on and all you need to do is to turn them off with the remote. There is one that won't even turn off. What is the diagram of the filter that was mentioned above?
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What is the diagram of the filter that was mentioned above?
It is described in my first post on page 1 of this thread.
Jeff
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A X10 and Insteon user is reporting a Duke Smart Meter effecting both X10 and Insteon modules.
http://www.smarthome.com/forum/topic.asp?whichpage=1&TOPIC_ID=13104#69474
Do you know how the Insteons 131.65 KHz power line signals will be effected, with the kit?
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Do you know how the Insteons 131.65 KHz power line signals will be effected, with the kit?
The ferrite filters will be slightly more effective at the higher frequency. The XPNR straddles the 240V to attenuate the signal that leaks through the ferrite filters. The XPNR is a bandpass filter that peaks at 120KHz, and provides attenuation as the frequency moves away from 120KHz. Since it is straddling the 240V, it should have little effect on the 131KHz, which is referenced to neutral. Depending on how sharp that 120KHz bandpass is, it might even begin to work as a passive coupler at the Insteon frequency. The custom filter that I offer as an alternative to the XPNR would be a very good passive coupler for the Insteon signal.
Jeff
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Thank you for the information.
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Jeff
I live in Cincinnati and have this problem with a Duke Smartmeter. Can you help me?
Thanks
Gary
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I live in Cincinnati and have this problem with a Duke Smartmeter. Can you help me?
(I responded to his email.)
Jeff
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I installed the ferrite filters on the main lines and had great success. Now I have a new problem. I just had my furnace/AC units replaced. Looks like I have the same issue with some of my X10 modules while the AC is running. How can I fix this problem?
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I just had my furnace/AC units replaced. Looks like I have the same issue with some of my X10 modules while the AC is running. How can I fix this problem?
Some of the newer HVAC systems have variable speed blowers that inject noise onto the powerline. The solution for several people who experienced this problem was to isolate the furnace circuit (not the 240V compressors) with a 20A X10 XPF in-line filter.
Jeff
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I tried installing a pair of 20A filters on the mains going to the HVAC and it did not help. I planned at one point to replace that with a single XPF at the circuit board power. In the end, I don't have it filtered at all since fixing everything else made enough improvements that the HVAC was no longer required.
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I tried installing a pair of 20A filters on the mains going to the HVAC and it did not help. I planned at one point to replace that with a single XPF at the circuit board power. In the end, I don't have it filtered at all since fixing everything else made enough improvements that the HVAC was no longer required.
If the problem only occurs when the HVAC blower is running, filtering that line should help. You don't have to filter the 240V line that feeds the A/C compressor, only the circuit that feeds the electronic control unit for the furnace and blower. Be sure you have a good connection from the XPF white lead to neutral to provide a low-impedance path for the noise.
Jeff
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the new furnace does not have a variable speed fan -- single speed only. What's your suggestion -- the issue seems to be more prevalent when the AC unit is on. Should I install at the unit or in the circuit breaker box?
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The XPF is a 20A module. Most (all?) central A/C units are rated higher than 20A. If you install at the panel, you will not be able to use a single XPF as it is not rated for the load and will fail (which could be dangerous, I'm no electrician). Jeff provided a schematic that should share the load across 2 XPF modules to allow for up to 40A load but it did not seem to help me. However, as Jeff posted above, I may have had issues with my installation such as solid connection to neutral. I used wire nuts to tie 3 lines together but a better option would have been to solder the 2 XPF leads to a 3rd wire and wire nut that to the panel.
If you have access to the load that's actually causing the noise in the A/C, it would probably be better to do that since it will simplify the setup. In my case, I believe I would have had to either splice wires on my new HVAC system or source connectors to match what it uses and build a pigtail. I didn't want to void the warranty so I tried 2x XPF at the panel.
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What's your suggestion -- the issue seems to be more prevalent when the AC unit is on. Should I install at the unit or in the circuit breaker box?
All the HVAC compressors I am familiar with have an induction motor with a phase-shift capacitor. Nothing in the compressor would be generating noise, and the relatively high inductance of the winding should limit its loading. So I don't think filtering the high-current line would have much effect. Of course, it is possible that your signal levels are low to begin with, and adding the high current draw lowers the signal enough that it becomes marginal. If that is the case, you may have better results boosting signal levels than trying to filter the A/C unit.
If you have a separate control circuit powered by 120V like we have at our home, you might try filtering power to that unit. It might have a switching power supply that would generate noise. If so, it could generate more noise when driving the relay that turns on the A/C compressor.
Unfortunately, without some sort of signal meter, troubleshooting an X10 system can be a trial and error process.
Regarding the XPF filters, what I meant by a solid connection was a direct path to the neutral/ground buss in the panel. Wire nuts should be fine. The closer it is to the buss, the better the attenuation because it reduces the inductance in that run.
Jeff
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Regarding the XPF filters, what I meant by a solid connection was a direct path to the neutral/ground buss in the panel. Wire nuts should be fine. The closer it is to the buss, the better the attenuation because it reduces the inductance in that run.
Oh, ok. I pulled the setup off the panel since it didn't seem to help. But, from memory I ran a 4 conductor wire from the panel to a box next to it with the 2 XPF modules located within. I ran Power, Neutral, and Ground from the panel to the XPF and connected with wire nuts. I ran the 4th conductor back to the panel from the load side of the XPF. I used a wire nut in the panel to connect the returning Load wire to the HVAC controller line. The HVAC worked correctly both with/without the XPF but I saw no measurable improvement in signal strength/degradation/noise with the meter under any HVAC run condition. I saw no ill effects from the installation so I believe the 2x XPF setup was working as you described it just was not improving the issue I was seeing. Had I continued to see issues, I would have added a single XPF to the HVAC and had my contractor install the unit on the HVAC controller to avoid warranty issues.