X10 Community Forum
💬General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Noam on February 01, 2012, 09:37:03 AM
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I'm looking into the possibility of getting solar panels, to try and reduce my overall energy bills. I wouldn't be converting to ONLY solar, but using the solar, in conjunction with the electric utility.
does anyone here have any information on using X10 in a home with solar panels, and what problems I might encounter?
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My cottage is solely off grid.
If your planing on intergrating with the grid you'll be required to use a pure sine wave inverter which is what is needed for X10 to work smoothly.
I have experienced some noise issues when using large power tools but suspect that would occur anyways.
I've heard of issues when the battery bank gets low but I haven't experienced those.
If your only using solar to supplement the grid will keep the batteries topped up any ways if you with out sun.
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My cottage is solely off grid.
If your planing on intergrating with the grid you'll be required to use a pure sine wave inverter which is what is needed for X10 to work smoothly.
I have experienced some noise issues when using large power tools but suspect that would occur anyways.
I've heard of issues when the battery bank gets low but I haven't experienced those.
If your only using solar to supplement the grid will keep the batteries topped up any ways if you with out sun.
Thanks for the information.
I don't think the providers I'm looking at use a battery bank. They use the solar in conjunction with the utility company. Excess electricity generated by the panels is sold back to the utility, reducing the overall electric utility bill. There are companies here that are offering a $0 down lease, where I pay a monthly lease fee for the equipment, but they own it all and maintain it. It doesn't hurt to get a free estimate from them on what it would cost me per month, and what I would save with the system.
I also have to look at how these companies monitor the system. I am assuming they go over the Internet to do it (and not the power lines), which itself should not cause me any additional X10 issues. However, the utility might install a SmartMeter at the same time, which *might* cause some problems, too (although I'm not with Duke Energy, and I know the local utility isn't currently using Echelon meters, so I might be okay).
My biggest concern with all of this is that something will screw up my X10 system. I have the same concern about switching to CFL bulbs, and I've been doing that really slowly, to see if there are any issue cropping up.
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I suspect the only issue you may have is with how the company monitors your solar output
Most inverters and charge controlers have built in meters which in my case haven't caused a issue.
If your paying a monthly fee I don't suspect they'll monitor your systems output.
However they may tie into the smartmeter to see if the setup is actualy working.
Here in Ontario Canada we have simular companies running this type of deal.
Hydro companies forecasts it takes 20 years to pay for itself if you fork out all the cash your self.
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From what I can tell, both companies I've looked at so far (which seem to offer the same types of lease packages) monitor both your actual usage, AND the output of the solar panels. They then package this up nicely on their website, for the customer to see how much money they are saving by using solar.
I don't think they tie into the SmartMeter itself to do the monitoring. I think they install their own metering equipment to gather all that data (I don't know for sure - I can certainly ask them, or just ask my friend who just had a system installed a few weeks ago).
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From what I can tell, both companies I've looked at so far (which seem to offer the same types of lease packages) monitor both your actual usage, AND the output of the solar kits (http://www.shinesolar.net). They then package this up nicely on their website, for the customer to see how much money they are saving by using solar.
I don't think they tie into the SmartMeter itself to do the monitoring. I think they install their own metering equipment to gather all that data (I don't know for sure - I can certainly ask them, or just ask my friend who just had a system installed a few weeks ago).
I am really not huge fan of solar power.. It is very expensive to use solar power and efficiency of the system is very less too.
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I am really not huge fan of solar power.. It is very expensive to use solar power and efficiency of the system is very less too.
I'm not sure what that means. Solar power is less efficient that what - than that same solar energy heating the roof? Or are you referring to the carbon cycle, with all the energy losses between growing trees with sunlight and delivering the electricity that you use at home?
Jeff
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Well, it's been just over two years since I asked the question, and I'm happy to report that we finally signed up to get solar panels. We signed a Power Purchase Agreement (PPA) with SolarCity.
Put simply, we pay nothing for the panels (which they own and are responsible for maintaining for the duration of the 20-year agreement), and we agree to purchase all of the power produced by those panels - at a lower rate (per kWh) than our local utility charges. There are no monthly fees - we only get billed by the kWh.
It will be 3-4 months before the system is installed, so I don't have all of the details of inverter models, etc.
It will be a grid-tied system - where the excess power is sent back through the meter to the utility, which goes to reduce the total amount we pull from the utility across the whole month.
We will not have any storage batteries in this setup. They expect it to produce about 70% of our power needs - on average - resulting in about $40 savings in our monthly electric bill at first. The panels will also help reduce the heat load on our house (by intercepting the solar energy before it gets absorbed by our roof), which will save us a little more, too.
I was incorrect in what I had said two years ago regarding the monitoring. SolarCity is only monitoring the output of the panels (the inverters use wireless communication - I think ZigBee, but I'm not 100% sure - to communicate with the "gateway", which then plugs into my Internet connection to upload the data to their monitoring system). They are not monitoring power consumption of my house or using the power grid for data transmission.
I already have a smartmeter from my utility (although they will be replacing it with a new one capable of net-metering when the panels are installed). So far, I haven't noticed any problems with my X10 system from the smartmeter - which has been in place and sending data to the utility for well over a year now.
I'm really hoping the inverters won't cause any problems with my X10 system - but I won't be able to know for sure until the panels are installed and running. If there are issues, I probably won't be able to fix them.
If there are any forum members who have a setup from SolarCity and X10, please let me know what your experience has been.
Thanks.
--Noam
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..... We signed a Power Purchase Agreement (PPA) with SolarCity.
Great! That sounds exciting. I've read about similar (or maybe the same) setups. This is a California thing... right?
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This is a California thing... right?
Depends on how you define "thing" : SolarCity is headquartered out in California, but I live in Maryland.
They offer two basic models: the PPA and the Solar Lease. However, our consultant told us they are phasing out the lease, as the PPA is much more popular. As I understand it, the lease has a fixed monthly payment, with a lower per-kWa rate than the PPA on top of it. However, with the PPA you can purchase the system outright at any point after year 5. I guess you'd have to talk to SolarCity to get the specifics (please let me know if you want to - I get a credit for referring new customers).
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........ out in California, but I live in Maryland.
I am kind of shocked. I would have guessed the figures would have not worked out. In CA.... taxes and regulation puts the KWH rate 3 or 4 times what is paid in most other states. Which is a big edge of alternate production. Even states like Arizona aren't as likely to break even as CA. I wouldn't have put Maryland in the running at all.
Is the install highly subsidized?
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Is the install highly subsidized?
- http://www.dsireusa.org/incentives/incentive.cfm?Incentive_Code=MD14F&ee=1
- http://www.solarcity.com/residential/solar-power-tax-credits.aspx
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........ out in California, but I live in Maryland.
I am kind of shocked. I wouldn't have guessed the figures would have not worked out. In CA.... taxes and regulation puts the KWH rate 3 or 4 times what is paid in most other states. Which is a big edge of alternate production. Even states like Arizona aren't as likely to break even as CA. I wouldn't have put Maryland in the running at all.
Is the install highly subsidized?
As far as I understand it, since SolarCity owns the system, they are the ones who get any government rebates and incentives.
However, their system design (which I just got this morning) came back 25% smaller than expected, so I'm waiting to hear back from my salesman to find out how much less we are going to be saving now. This might be a deal-breaker (if the savings are negligible, it isn't worth the trouble).
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Every year there seems to be some advancement in solar panel production.
Outputs increase which could be the reason for the smaller design. ;)
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Solar economics appear to be changing drastically. See...
- http://www.forbes.com/sites/jeffmcmahon/2014/03/21/steven-chu-solves-utility-companies-death-spiral/?google_editors_picks=true
- http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/25/business/car-companies-take-expertise-in-battery-power-beyond-the-garage.html?ref=business
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Sorry it's taken me so long to reply, but here's an update:
The initial system design came back 25% smaller because the salesman over-estimated the size of the roof (he guess the wrong roof angle, and we can blame the rest on trigonometry). Simply put - the roof is smaller than he originally thought - so they can't fit as many panels on it.
However - the engineer came back with another option: Even though the front of my house faces almost directly north, the low slope of the roof means that panels installed on the front of the house would get enough sun to meet SolarCity's minimum efficiency threshold.
So the new plan is to put a total of 61 panels on the front and the back of the house (36 back, 25 front), and they expect to generate an average of 18,500 kWh per year.
I approved the design, they submitted the permit application to the county, and now I am back to waiting.
If anyone has any information on issues with the SolarEdge SE6000A-US inverter (or similar models) and X10 communication, I'd appreciate it.
I might end up buying an XTBM (*finally* - I've been "thinking about it" for almost 4 years!), since I still want to replace more bulbs with LEDs. The incandescents use much more power, and the CFLs take too long to warm up to full brightness.
Hopefully we can catch a break with this weather (Snow in DC on March 25th for the *second* year in a row is not funny), so my roofing contractor can finish the three jobs he has lined up ahead of mine.
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Please keep us up on this project. I am following with great interest.
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The initial system design came back 25% smaller because the salesman over-estimated the size of the roof (he guess the wrong roof angle, and we can blame the rest on trigonometry). Simply put - the roof is smaller than he originally thought - so they can't fit as many panels on it.
My wife looked into a similar setup here for our city place.
Here they do all the calculating via satellite, sadly it to has to small of a roof area to qualify. :( :(
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Please keep us up on this project. I am following with great interest.
I'll do my best to keep everyone updated.
In the interest of full disclosure, I do get a referral credit if I refer new customers. With that in mind, I still want to try to keep the discussion focused mainly on the specific interaction between the SolarCity equipment and my X10 equipment.
I'm happy to talk more offline if anyone is interested in finding out more about SolarCity, and how their pricing model works - just send me a private message.
My wife looked into a similar setup here for our city place.
Here they do all the calculating via satellite, sadly it to has to small of a roof area to qualify. :( :(
I think that's how most of the companies do their initial calculations. It is pretty easy to do, and is accurate enough to let them know if it is worth pursuing. It takes time and money to send out a person to climb on the roof and take precise measurements. Looking at my neighborhood in Google Earth, I never realized how many trees there are (and I grew up in this neighborhood, too!). Yes, the trees have grown over the past 30+ years, but the are was all woods before the development was built in the 1950's-60's, so most of the big trees were already here.
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Oklahoma has passed a law that will require those with solar or wind installations that feed excess power to the grid to pay a monthly fee which, ostensibly, will compensate the utility for grid upkeep.
- http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/04/16/3427392/oklahoma-fee-solar-wind/
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Oklahoma has passed a law that will require those with solar or wind installations that feed excess power to the grid to pay a monthly fee which, ostensibly, will compensate the utility for grid upkeep.
- http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/04/16/3427392/oklahoma-fee-solar-wind/
<grin> They (the utility) would have to maintain the grid anyway. Sounds like more of a win for the power company than the customer. I wonder if the utility buys back power at the same rate per kWh as they sell it?
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....<grin> They (the utility) would have to maintain the grid anyway.
So.... since you'll be driving near me and my work place everyday anyway.... why not just chafer me around everyday (for free) since you'll be spending money for the car and fuel anyway?!? <grin>
I think people who have their life's savings invested in the local utility company... desire a little return on there investment.
There are some darn great uses for all sorts of energy... alternate and otherwise. But most of the ideas.... of trying to force solar and wind into tired 100 year old paradigms into modern times doesn't make good sense. Currently there are BILLIONS of American tax dollars being thrown around in solar and wind power schemes... none of which seem to be able to stay out of bankruptcy court.
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<grin> They (the utility) would have to maintain the grid anyway. Sounds like more of a win for the power company than the customer. I wonder if the utility buys back power at the same rate per kWh as they sell it?
Business Rule #1
Always sell at a profit unless absolutely necessary to make a loss in order to shift product before it's out of date - it's likely that the utility will buy at somewhere around half the sell rate.
Charging a fee to pump power INTO the grid makes perfect sense. Imagine the scenario where everyone has solar/wind pumping into the grid and does not pay a fee. The grid is no longer profitable as it cannot sell the required amount of electricity to maintain the grid. No money to maintain the grid means the grid will cease to exist. The failure of the grid means nowhere to pump your solar/wind excess. Nowhere to pump your excess solar/wind energy means you would be self-sufficient for power with no source of backup unless you buy an alternative power source.
In effect tying your own energy into the grid and paying a fee is like insurance - maybe you'll never need to use it, but you'll be happy if you do need it.
It's like the plan that appears occasionally to put a road maintenance tax on fossil fuel for your car - the theory goes that those who use the roads the most will pay more for the maintenance, but those who go to church once a month pay very little for road upkeep. What happens if this comes to pass and everyone buys an electric vehicle instead (tied into their own wind/solar)? No road maintenance fees because no tax is collected - roads break down over time due to lack of maintenance - Granny cannot get to church because her electric vehicle cannot handle the ruts and dirt tracks that are left by the lack of paving - Granny has an expensive battery operated lawn ornament.
Nothing is free - especially not lunch with a grid tied power backup system :)
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Every year there seems to be some advancement in solar panel production.
Outputs increase which could be the reason for the smaller design. ;)
From numerous articles in Forbes, Fortune and other business related publications (do a search on solar death spiral), it seems there are two things happening. The efficiency of solar cells is improving significantly while increased production is driving down manufacturing costs (i.e. economies of scale). So, solar panels are getting cheaper to manufacture while also getting more efficient. I've seen projected rates of 10 cents per kWh in the near future.
A very recent development is a solar panel that can store excess power to release later as heat which is then used directly or to generate more power.
- http://www.gizmag.com/chemical-nanotube-solar-energy-storage/19228/
For the utility companies, I think it makes more financial sense to get into the residential solar panel business (as suggested by former Energy Secretary Chu - see link in message #14) than to charge residential solar panel users for grid maintenance.
And, solar is not necessarily limited to the sunny southwest. See the final paragraph at...
- http://www.juancole.com/2014/04/reasons-energy-world.html
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...... For the utility companies, I think it makes more financial sense to get into the residential solar panel business (as suggested by former Energy Secretary Chu - see link in message #14) than to charge residential solar panel users for grid maintenance.
What makes sense.... for individuals, for home owners, for utility company's, or for fixed income (retirement) investors... all seems to differ. And is always based on the best-guesses of future events.
One fact that can not be denied... (even using current best guesses of solar and wind production). If we covered every farm and ranch in the USA with solar panels and windmills.... Americans would starve to death.. in the dark.
Alternate energy forms have their uses. But they can not fulfill the needs and desires of a modern society. If we are going to continue to progress as a species we must also progress scientifically. Vast amounts of energy is encapsulated inside of every atom in the universe. Only expanding our knowledge of manipulating atoms will solve mankind's need for energy.
Todays.... "energy dark age"... is an embarrassment at best. Wasting food producing farm areas to power flashlight-like lighting sources would only seem silly if it wasn't that billions of Earths humans go hungry. The people who live on this planet need clean water, food, and energy to distribute and preserve the food. Solar will not... cannot accomplish that. We need to exploit the energy of the universe to fulfil mankind's destiny.
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I don't recall that anyone here has argued that solar will replace all other sources. Noam, in his first post, specified that he isn't even expecting to totally replace his supply from his utility.
But, the falling costs and increased efficiency are certainly making it a viable alternative for anyone wanting to reduce their total costs and, as Noam's case shows, with little or no initial investment by the homeowner. And, it's also apparent that it's approaching the point where those wanting to go off-grid may be able to do so, especially if they combine solar with passivhaus construction. And, as Professor Cole has demonstrated, this may even be economically viable in the frozen north.
However, to HA Dave's point, there is a timely article in today's Forbes discussing both costs/efficiencies and what percent of power generation comes from the various sources.
- http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2014/04/24/solar-is-booming-but-will-never-replace-coal/?google_editors_picks=true
If the utilities continue to increase the price of the electricity they supply, more and more homeowners are likely to follow Noam.
- http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-power-prices-20140426,0,6329274.story
Finally, to address Noam's question about how this will affect his X10 gear, the fact that they will feed excess power to the grid means they must maintain both the frequency and sinusoidal wave form so his X10 system should be happy as long as his neighbor stays away from those CFLs he received in the mail. ;)
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... I wonder if the utility buys back power at the same rate per kWh as they sell it?
In most, if not all, cases they are required to pay the same amount as they charge for an equivalent amount of power.
- http://apps3.eere.energy.gov/greenpower/markets/netmetering.shtml
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Okay, I've got some more updates (I'll put them in a separate post), but I'll comment on some of the more recent posts first:
Oklahoma has passed a law that will require those with solar or wind installations that feed excess power to the grid to pay a monthly fee which, ostensibly, will compensate the utility for grid upkeep.
Good thing I don't live in Oklahoma, I guess.;-)
I wonder if the utility buys back power at the same rate per kWh as they sell it?
In my case, I guess the answer is "yes and no." My system is set up such that the panels connect to my house BEHIND (on the customer side of) the electric meter. The utility has no way of knowing how much the panels are producing. If I'm producing more than I'm using during the day, then the excess goes backward through the meter, running the meter backward, and I earn a credit for that power (in kWh). My expectation is that I'll use those credits pretty quickly (likely that night). In that scenario, the utility is being used as if it were a giant battery (even though it isn't), storing my excess power until I need it later. If I over-produce more than I can use in a month (as is quite possible in the spring and fall), then those credits show up on my electric bill, and are carried over to the next month. The way I understand it, I have a year to use those credits (presumably I would use the ones earned in the spring during the summer, and the ones earned in the fall during the winter), or the utility will pay them out - at a rate lower than what I paid SolarCity for that energy.
That's the kicker - I *don't* want to get to a point where my total annual consumption is less than the annual production of my system, or I end up selling the extra power back at a loss.
I have seen other setups in other parts of the country (some with SolarCity, some not) where the inverters are connected *only* to the grid (via a second electric meter), and the customer buys ALL of their power from the utility at one (possibly variable) rate, while selling the utility ALL the power their panels produced at a second (possibly variable) rate. But mine isn't set up that way.
A third setup would be to attach a set of storage batteries on the house side of the meter, to store any over-production. If it doesn't go backward through the meter, the utility can't bill for it.
... Noam, in his first post, specified that he isn't even expecting to totally replace his supply from his utility.
Correct - Their estimate was about 77% (based on our usage over the past 12 months). As we reduce our energy usage, though (like by replacing the 1979 refrigerator in our basement with a new one), that percentage should increase (as the total decreases).
If the utilities continue to increase the price of the electricity they supply, more and more homeowners are likely to follow Noam.
Hopefully, those homeowners will contact me first, so I can earn a referral credit. ;-)
Finally, to address Noam's question about how this will affect his X10 gear, the fact that they will feed excess power to the grid means they must maintain both the frequency and sinusoidal wave form so his X10 system should be happy
As I'll detail in my next post, my initial test results were excellent.
...as long as his neighbor stays away from those CFLs he received in the mail. ;)
I don't think he got them in the mail (but it *is* possible).
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Alright, time for another update:
I'm happy (thrilled/ecstatic/overjoyed/etc) to report that SolarCity installed my system yesterday.
It was one very long day (close to 9 hours - and they didn't even take a break for lunch), but they got everything done, and they were a really great crew.
I have 61 panels on my roof (25 on the front, 36 on the back), split across into two inverters. They added two big service disconnects (one outside next to the meter, the other inside next to the breaker box), and a load center next to the inverters (one double-pole breaker for each inverter, and a third for the SolarGuard monitoring device).
They turned the system on for a few minutes, to check everything out, and make sure all of the components registered properly. Once they had, I took a few minutes to test my X10 stuff (all the lights, etc) before they had to shut the system down again.
Now I have to wait for the county to do their inspection (hopefully at the end of this week), and then for the utility to come out and change the meter to one configured for net-metering), and then I should get approval to turn it on "for real."
I'll post more updates as I go through those next steps.
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Oklahoma has passed a law that will require those with solar or wind installations that feed excess power to the grid to pay a monthly fee which, ostensibly, will compensate the utility for grid upkeep.
- http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/04/16/3427392/oklahoma-fee-solar-wind/
While the law was passed and, apparently, signed by the governor, it was immediately gutted by an executive order from the same governor.
- http://www.latimes.com/opinion/topoftheticket/la-na-tt-koch-brothers-new-foe-20140502,0,6774303.story
The order directs the state energy commission to impose solar fees only as a last resort and to continue making expansion of solar power a priority.
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Another update:
The system passed the county's building/electrical inspection last Friday.
As a test, I turned the system on for about 30 minutes this past Sunday morning. I wanted to test the X10 system again when we had enough sun to produce more power than we were consuming.
The test went fine (I didn't detect any issues with the X10 system), so I shut the system down again (my smartmeter was complaining - apparently it wasn't expecting power to be flowing backward, so it was flashing "Error" on the screen every few seconds).
The second half of the utility's application paperwork was submitted to them this morning, and now we are waiting for them to change out the meter (for one that is set up for net-metering), and give us the "green light" to turn it on.
In the meantime, I'm working on adding power monitoring (solar power produced, and total power consumed) to my Arduino-based temperature/hvac monitor.
I have a working prototype that can measure current flow (using a clamp-on current transformer) accurately enough for me (not perfect, but close). I'm working on the code to send that data to the Arduino that captures the rest of my data, and dumps it into the MySQL database. I still have to build the interface circuits for the four current transformers (the one I have right now is on a breadboard at the moment), and test with the higher-amperage feeds.
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Here's an interesting outside-the-box solar approach...
- http://theweek.com/article/index/261385/the-answer-to-americas-power-needs-solar-roads
- http://www.computerworld.com.au/article/546066/could_one_day_driving_solar-powered_smart_streets/
- https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/solar-roadways
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Here's another update:
Our utility changed out our meter, and we got our final approval to activate the system last Wednesday.
In the few days it has been up and running, our system has already generated about 345 kWh (as of this moment, that is - it changes by the minute).
I didn't notice any issues with my X10 system, and it ran through the weekend (the heaviest X10-use period for me) just fine.
After some calibration, my homebrew monitoring system seems to be tracking the power production and consumption nicely, too.
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SolarCity has started offering loans to homeowners to finance solar panel installation without the need to lease the panels and pay for the power.
- http://www.news24.com/Green/News/SolarCity-offers-loans-to-US-homes-20141008
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The Solar Roadways project which I referenced above has progressed, raising far more than their IndieGoGo crowd-funding goal. However, I think they might do even better if they weren't soft selling it - see the video (top of the page) at...
- http://www.solarroadways.com/intro.shtml
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For those interested, here's another update:
After four billing cycles with the SolarCity system running, I'm definitely seeing savings. I've estimated my monthly savings so far to have been $74.60, $73.45, $75.42, and $88.93. My savings estimate is simply based on multiplying the number of kWh produced by the solar panels by the difference in rates between SolarCity and my utility company. It is only an estimate, since the utility rates change above 800 kWh (which I've stayed below on the utility side). I haven't noticed any issues at all with my X10 system due to the SolarCity system.
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Thanks for keeping us up on the system.
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Thanks for keeping us up on the system.
My pleasure.
I'm happy to share more information - but I don't want to cross that line to where I become a "problem child" on these forums.
I'd also be happy to take any detailed discussions offline - if anyone would prefer to speak with me privately about my experience so far.
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The electric power industry is fighting back, trying to drive up the costs of going solar.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/utilities-sensing-threat-put-squeeze-on-booming-solar-roof-industry/2015/03/07/2d916f88-c1c9-11e4-ad5c-3b8ce89f1b89_story.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/utilities-sensing-threat-put-squeeze-on-booming-solar-roof-industry/2015/03/07/2d916f88-c1c9-11e4-ad5c-3b8ce89f1b89_story.html)
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From that article:
"In a closely watched case last month, an Arizona utility voted to impose a monthly surcharge of about $50 for “net metering,” a common practice that allows solar customers to earn credit for the surplus electricity they provide to the electric grid."
Gee, during cooler months our electric consumption isn't much over that. Our statements show our electric bill was under $70 per month December through April, with a low of $61 in April just before the A/C season started. The A/C added $130 per month in July and August, and less in the shoulder months. (It often tops out over 110F here during the summer.)
Jeff
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The electric power industry is fighting back, trying to drive up the costs of going solar.
Wait, wait, wait! So.... someone works their entire life and invests in a utility (like the local electric provider) planning on slight additional retirement income from dividend income.
So now you think my 90+ year old mother is trying to "drive up the costs of going solar"?!?!?!?!? Give me a break!!!!! Public utilities (ALL power providers) are VERY regulated by law already. The FACTS are... if you plan on becoming a SELLER of electric (from your solar panels or whatever) you may need to chip in your share for infrastructure costs, and repairs.
So solar panels when fairly and honestly managed.... may not be the profitable magic panacea some politicians said they would be? BIG surprise.
Modern science assures us... energy is everywhere... and maybe even everything (http://www.collective-evolution.com/2014/09/27/this-is-the-world-of-quantum-physics-nothing-is-solid-and-everything-is-energy/)! Ancient Jewish mystics said the very same thing. Cheap, abundant, energy is readily available... or can be made available through solid science and engineering. We don't need to live in the darkness provided by antique-designed solar panels and windmills.
We should crack a few atoms open.... and bring light into the world. Living in fear of science is just silly!
IMHO
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While it's still a fairly small percentage of total US usage, solar grew by 108% over the last year and its cost continues to plummet as the technology improves. The smart utilities, seeing the writing on the wall, are using their financial clout to finance rooftop solar installations like Noam's.
Some interesting links...
http://www.seia.org/research-resources/solar-industry-data (http://www.seia.org/research-resources/solar-industry-data)
http://www.solarcontractormilford.com/general_solar_energy_systems.html?keyphrase=solar+panels&c=5409015171&provider=msn&lid=5409073224 (http://www.solarcontractormilford.com/general_solar_energy_systems.html?keyphrase=solar+panels&c=5409015171&provider=msn&lid=5409073224)
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While it's still a fairly small percentage of total US usage, solar grew by 108% over the last year
A local self appointed preacher increased his flock of parishioners by over 300% last year!!!!! That makes his church... the FASTEST growing religion in America. They now have nearly 20 members.
America has a larger portion of solar energy use than any other nation (but still less than 1%).
....and its cost continues to plummet as the technology improves.
And just what is that "improved technology" you speak of????? Last I heard/read... it was cheap Chinese made parts. Shipped into Southern Ca. and assembled with undocumented labor. Because of the value-added laws.... those cheap panels are then called "Made in America".
Paul Revere... one of the more famous of Americas founding fathers bathed in hot water collected by his roof mounted solar panels. There isn't much new in solar.
The smart utilities, seeing the writing on the wall, are using their financial clout to finance rooftop solar installations like Noam's.
The Department of Energy is making speculative loans to any business (with White House connections) that promotes the Presidents favorite program... "Solar Energy". Of course as like most speculative ideas... most have also gone belly-up losing Billions of American tax dollars. Although many of these same "businesses" did manage to contribute to the President's political party.... before locking their doors.
I'd like to believe that some of these outfits are on the up and up.
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And just what is that "improved technology" you speak of????? Last I heard/read... it was cheap Chinese made parts.
Actually, the underlying materials used and physics of converting the light into electricity have been evolving rapidly, making the process itself far more efficient.
One does wonder why, if you're right and it's never likely to be an important source of energy, the utilities are running scared on net-metering. Note, that Tesla's latest battery developments promise to allow the homeowners to store the excess energy for use when they would otherwise be drawing from the grid, reducing the need for net-metering .
And, recent growth in solar has been overwhelmingly because of large installations by the utilities themselves not from roof-top installations like Noam's.
http://www.gizmag.com/tesla-home-battery/36276/ (http://www.gizmag.com/tesla-home-battery/36276/)
http://www.gizmag.com/honda-smart-home-energy-producing/31380/ (http://www.gizmag.com/honda-smart-home-energy-producing/31380/)
http://www.solarelectricpower.org/experience-events/utility-solar-conference/2015-agenda.aspx (http://www.solarelectricpower.org/experience-events/utility-solar-conference/2015-agenda.aspx)
http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/business/energy-environment/solar-energy/index.html (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/business/energy-environment/solar-energy/index.html)
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Some compensation for infrastructure costs is justified, but $50 a month seems way too high. Using our own home for example, our base consumption without A/C costs less than $70 per month. So is only $20 of that the cost of energy?
And regarding infrastructure costs, solar should save utilities from having to invest in new plants to provide peak energy needed for the summer A/C season. While the daily heat load lags a few hours behind the solar energy output, the total solar output is maximum during the months when A/C load is also at the max. And the argument that the utility must still provide that capacity for cloudy days isn't entirely true because the solar heating requiring A/C is also lower.
Bottom line is that in the states where there is significant electrical consumption for A/C, such as Arizona that imposed the fee, solar energy should reduce investments needed in new power plants, and contain the growth in infrastructure costs.
Jeff
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Some compensation for infrastructure costs is justified, but $50 a month seems way too high. Using our own home for example, our base consumption without A/C costs less than $70 per month. So is only $20 of that the cost of energy?
If your electric bill is $70... I would guess the energy use to create that power would be well less than $7! And even that... would be based on government regulations that force electric producers to use antiquated energy sources like solar, wind, coal, and/or natural gas. The cost of nuclear energy... would be in the fraction of a penny.
And regarding infrastructure costs, solar should save utilities from having to invest in new plants
Isn't "investing in new plants" what industry calls "growth" which is often tied to "profit"? If you're in the business of sell electric... making and selling MORE is a good thing.
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Actually, the underlying materials used and physics of converting the light into electricity have been evolving rapidly, making the process itself far more efficient.
That's FANTASTIC!!!!! Please describe for me... in your own words. What are those advances in physics in todays solar cells... that weren't in the ones I owned in the 1950's. Looking at my own... I can't see it.
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Please describe for me... in your own words. What are those advances in physics in todays solar cells...
Since I'm not a physicist (economics major), my own words are probably inadequate. But here are a few links describing the latest advances in efficiency. Solar cells are at ~45% and thin films above 20% efficiency with current (no pun intended) research indicating ways to get 60% or higher - efficiency is a ratio of the solar energy converted to electrical energy. One advance has come from stacking multiple cells that respond to different energy bands. Higher efficiency means smaller panels that cost less to install. It's probable that solar will be more economical than conventional power plants in the not to distant future at which point those utility stock certificates can be recycled into toilet paper. :'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cell_efficiency (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cell_efficiency)
http://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Solar-Cell-Efficiency-Theoretically-Doubled.html (http://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Solar-Cell-Efficiency-Theoretically-Doubled.html)
http://cleantechnica.com/2014/02/27/first-solar-knocks-park-new-solar-cell-efficiency-record/ (http://cleantechnica.com/2014/02/27/first-solar-knocks-park-new-solar-cell-efficiency-record/)
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Solar Panels we are talking about here should not be confused with Solar panels for Hot water or heat.
Having uses photo electric solar panels myself now for over 20 years I have seen a large advancement in these, much of it coming since governments embraced the technology.
It's true the cost of these have come down an one can get a panel for less then 1/3 the price it may have cost just 10 years ago.
Although cost is a factor in the improvements supply and demand is more so.
The same physical size panel will now produce almost double the power output of a 10 year old panel and that's no just because of age.
Advancements are not only in the Panels but in the other electrical components required, Inverters and charge controllers which are the key elements to these working well have also improved.
These now work at over 90% efficiency.
Storage is the one area that is lagging, however improvements are being made in this area as well.
This is driven by the cell phone and tablet market and the desire for longer run time between charges
I also feel much safer with my neighbor installing a solar array then splitting atoms. ;)
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I also feel much safer with my neighbor installing a solar array then splitting atoms. ;)
It depends on how you split the atoms. Look into Thorium reactors. The government decided against that technology back in the 60's because it doesn't produce material suitable for nuclear weapons.
Jeff
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France has been the biggest user of nuclear power plants, getting 75% of their electricity from nuclear, and they are planning to start closing them down to reduce that to 50%.
http://www.nuclearpowerdaily.com/reports/France_says_it_will_close_oldest_nuclear_plant_by_2017_999.html (http://www.nuclearpowerdaily.com/reports/France_says_it_will_close_oldest_nuclear_plant_by_2017_999.html)
Germany uses nuclear for ~25% of its grid. They plan to close all of their plants by 2022.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/31/world/europe/31germany.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/31/world/europe/31germany.html)
And then there was Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, Fukushima, San Onofre, Diablo Canyon and...
It's not clear whether Norway's experimental thorium reactor is online.
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/160131-thorium-nuclear-reactor-trial-begins-could-provide-cleaner-safer-almost-waste-free-energy (http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/160131-thorium-nuclear-reactor-trial-begins-could-provide-cleaner-safer-almost-waste-free-energy)
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...... And then there was Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, Fukushima, San Onofre, Diablo Canyon and...
Yes... I understand. I know fear... all humans know fear. Although we don't all fear the same things. Technology (and darkness) does not frighten me. But I have no apathy for those afraid of the dark... or of the atom. They have my understanding, and my sympathy.
Energy is not just power. Energy is also wealth. The lack of abundant, reliable power... is called poverty. Even if I had reservations [fears] about technology... I do not wish to condemn future generations to the poverty that some political figures see as beneficial to... themselves.
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Yes... I understand. I know fear...
Ahh! I guess anyone who lives anywhere near Fernald knows fear.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fernald_Feed_Materials_Production_Center (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fernald_Feed_Materials_Production_Center)
The site is permanently unfit for human habitation, according to federal scientists, and "will have to be closely monitored essentially forever."
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And then there's this...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/03/12/wind-could-supply-a-third-of-the-countrys-power-needs-by-2050-government-says/ (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/03/12/wind-could-supply-a-third-of-the-countrys-power-needs-by-2050-government-says/)
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And then there's this...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/03/12/wind-could-supply-a-third-of-the-countrys-power-needs-by-2050-government-says/ (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/03/12/wind-could-supply-a-third-of-the-countrys-power-needs-by-2050-government-says/)
Actually.... wind power could easily replace ALL electric power in America TOMORROW. The key... is to make electric so costly that no one can afford it. Poverty is the solution.... to every socialist problem.
In free nations businesses are owned and operated by business owners. In third world nations.... the government runs the power companies.
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The key... is to make electric so costly that no one can afford it. Poverty is the solution.... to every socialist problem.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/09/florida-solar-conservatives_n_6834792.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/09/florida-solar-conservatives_n_6834792.html)
http://www.powerengineeringint.com/articles/2015/03/offshore-wind-using-the-danish-experience-to-draw-comparisons.html (http://www.powerengineeringint.com/articles/2015/03/offshore-wind-using-the-danish-experience-to-draw-comparisons.html)
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" Wind could supply a third of the country’s power needs by 2050, government says"
I laughed so hard, I had to don a fresh Depends!
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" Wind could supply a third of the country’s power needs by 2050, government says"
I laughed so hard, I had to don a fresh Depends!
Maybe you should read these articles to understand that, despite the increased supplies and falling prices of US oil and gas (from fracking), wind and solar have been the fastest growing sectors of the electric power generation industry...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/03/09/heres-how-much-faster-wind-and-solar-are-growing-than-fossil-fuels/ (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/03/09/heres-how-much-faster-wind-and-solar-are-growing-than-fossil-fuels/)
http://www.seia.org/research-resources/solar-industry-data (http://www.seia.org/research-resources/solar-industry-data)
If you prefer to get your data from non-governmental sources...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/02/04/report-wind-and-solar-energy-have-tripled-since-2008/?source=socnet_tw_CC_20150205_bo_wind-and-solar_energy_3&utm_content=20150205_bo_wind-and-solar_energy_3&utm_medium=socnet&awesm=ofa.bo_e2eV&utm_source=tw&utm_campaign=socnet_tw_CC_20150205_bo_wind-and-solar_energy_3 (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/02/04/report-wind-and-solar-energy-have-tripled-since-2008/?source=socnet_tw_CC_20150205_bo_wind-and-solar_energy_3&utm_content=20150205_bo_wind-and-solar_energy_3&utm_medium=socnet&awesm=ofa.bo_e2eV&utm_source=tw&utm_campaign=socnet_tw_CC_20150205_bo_wind-and-solar_energy_3)
And it's being driven by companies like...
Data from SEIA's annual Solar Means Business report show that major U.S. corporations, including Walmart, IKEA and Macy's, are going solar at an incredible rate. The top 25 corporate solar users in America have installed more than 569 MW of capacity at 1,100 different facilities across the country as of August 2014.
And wind would probably be growing even faster if there were transmission lines from areas with high winds to areas of high demand for electric power.
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Don't care Dave, "the gubment sez" has zip credibility with me.
Wind and solar power will have continued growth as long as the tax money and laws props it up.
Besides, how many wind farms or solar frams have been feathered (pun intended) by PETA? Pretty fragile technology .
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Don't care Dave, "the gubment sez" has zip credibility with me.
Then I should have been more explicit. Sevaral of the links I cited as well as other links within the articles themselves point to stories and reports from non-governmental sources which mostly say the same things.
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Yes, Dave I read that. But my statement about the government propping up wind and solar energy still stands. "Sustainable", "renewable", blah blahable, energy is far more expensive and problematic, and will be for some time. The new unlawful EPA regulations will shut down a clean gasification, coal generating plant two miles from me. Huge changes in the infrastructure and distribution network must take place to pick up the load. Consequently electric rates will rise, imposing unneeded burden on a large number of families in this area who can not afford it. We can’t abandon “sustainable” energy, but there is no reason for the consumer/tax payer to subsidize it at this time. And that is what we are doing. The “growth” of solar and wind power is artificial.
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.......Sevaral of the links I cited as well as other links within the articles themselves point to stories and reports........
I literally hate that intelligent on line discussions have been replaced with useless (often bogus) LINKS. Millions of people like you no longer relate to other posters as if we were all members of the same species. Just throw up some semi-related leftist post that has nothing to do with real science or even actual fact.
It is sad when 14 year old kids think they are cleaver by posting their selected Google search results.... to prove their point. But when adults with educated minds do that... it is a shame.
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We can’t abandon “sustainable” energy, but there is no reason for the consumer/tax payer to subsidize it at this time. And that is what we are doing. The “growth” of solar and wind power is artificial.
While there have been grants and tax credits that helped launch solar and wind projects, most have expired or are greatly reduced. But costs, especially for solar, have plummeted - a large solar project in Dubai will supply electricity at less than $0.06 per kWhr which is more than competitive - SolarCity, a major player in rooftop residential solar has announced they will be designing/building larger, regional projects. North Carolina is the second largest solar player while Texas and Oklahoma are leading in wind installations - those three states are hardly bastions of socialism. The next few years will likely see increased use of solar and wind while more and more coal-fired generating plants will be shut down. And, this is happening worldwide not just in the US.
Here's a news story on SolarCity's plans.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/17/business/solarcity-a-vocal-critic-of-the-utility-industry-joins-it.html?ref=science (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/17/business/solarcity-a-vocal-critic-of-the-utility-industry-joins-it.html?ref=science)
Here's SolarCity's commercial site.
http://www.solarcity.com/commercial (http://www.solarcity.com/commercial)
And, here is yet another advance in solar film technology.
http://www.morningledger.com/researchers-find-new-method-to-make-thinner-perovskite-films-for-solar-cells/138843/ (http://www.morningledger.com/researchers-find-new-method-to-make-thinner-perovskite-films-for-solar-cells/138843/)
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........ - a large solar project in Dubai will supply electricity at less than $0.06 per kWhr .............. while more and more coal-fired generating plants will be shut down. And, this is happening worldwide not just in the US.
Mean while.... in China they are opening a new coal fired electric generating plant every week. The Chinese people know poverty... and they are damn tired of it.
I know you really believe! In the religion of environmentalism.... I am sure you are fully ordained. But belief isn't the same as fact.... in the realm of man-made religions.
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Mean while.... in China they are opening a new coal fired electric generating plant every week.
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/chinas-choice/2014/jan/30/china-record-solar-energy (http://www.theguardian.com/environment/chinas-choice/2014/jan/30/china-record-solar-energy)
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-03-18/china-increases-solar-target-for-2015-as-it-fights-air-pollution (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-03-18/china-increases-solar-target-for-2015-as-it-fights-air-pollution)
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ambroseevans-pritchard/100027336/solar-to-match-coal-in-china-by-2016-threatening-fossil-dominance/ (http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ambroseevans-pritchard/100027336/solar-to-match-coal-in-china-by-2016-threatening-fossil-dominance/)
http://cleantechnica.com/2015/03/14/china-introduces-70-solar-subsidy-poor/ (http://cleantechnica.com/2015/03/14/china-introduces-70-solar-subsidy-poor/)
http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2010/07/renewable-energy-policy-update-for-china (http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/news/article/2010/07/renewable-energy-policy-update-for-china)
http://www.businessinsider.com/china-working-to-reduce-solar-costs-2014-6 (http://www.businessinsider.com/china-working-to-reduce-solar-costs-2014-6)
http://www.businessinsider.com/china-laughed-when-it-saw-how-cheap-solar-could-be-2014-6 (http://www.businessinsider.com/china-laughed-when-it-saw-how-cheap-solar-could-be-2014-6)
http://www.businessinsider.com/how-solar-will-destroy-the-power-companies-2014-6 (http://www.businessinsider.com/how-solar-will-destroy-the-power-companies-2014-6)
http://cleantechnica.com/2014/01/13/harvard-rhubarb-flow-battery-offers-energy-storage-breakthrough/ (http://cleantechnica.com/2014/01/13/harvard-rhubarb-flow-battery-offers-energy-storage-breakthrough/)
http://www.naturalnews.com/041771_battery_breakthrough_membraneless_batteries_energy_storage.html (http://www.naturalnews.com/041771_battery_breakthrough_membraneless_batteries_energy_storage.html)
http://www.rdmag.com/news/2014/02/researchers-make-breakthrough-battery-technology (http://www.rdmag.com/news/2014/02/researchers-make-breakthrough-battery-technology)
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Sorry for the long absence, but I wanted to give another update on my solar panels:
My system has been active for over 300 days (closing in on my first year), and I've collected a lot of data.
I've been through 10 billing cycles, and I did my best to calculate my savings (basing them on the amount I saved by buying a portion of my power at a discounted rate).
From what I estimated, my monthly savings so far have been (approximately): $75, $74, $76, $89, $54, $20, $13, $15, $13, and $23.
If anyone is interested in finding out more, please let me know (full disclosure: SolarCity has a customer referral program through which I earn a credit for bringing in new customers).
--Noam
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From what I estimated, my monthly savings so far have been (approximately): $75, $74, $76, $89, $54, $20, $13, $15, $13, and $23.
So, it looks like you get A/C for free plus saving a few bucks in each of the cooler months.
Tesla Elon Musk, chairman of the SolarCity board, has announced that he's going to make a major announcement at the end of the month. Most figure it will be about large stationary batteries for storing excess energy rather than feeding the grid, making it easier to cut yet another cord.
But then there's this...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/03/30/why-ditching-the-electric-grid-may-not-actually-be-such-a-good-idea/ (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/03/30/why-ditching-the-electric-grid-may-not-actually-be-such-a-good-idea/)
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/04/07/study-the-way-we-get-electricity-may-be-on-the-verge-of-a-major-change/ (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/04/07/study-the-way-we-get-electricity-may-be-on-the-verge-of-a-major-change/)
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This could put an end to the problem of carbon dioxide from using coal, oil or gas for electric generation.
http://phys.org/news/2015-04-major-advance-artificial-photosynthesis-poses.html (http://phys.org/news/2015-04-major-advance-artificial-photosynthesis-poses.html)
And this could eliminate much of the methane released to the atmosphere.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/22/world/americas/study-finds-low-cost-in-reducing-methane-emissions.html?ref=us (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/22/world/americas/study-finds-low-cost-in-reducing-methane-emissions.html?ref=us)
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Here's an article that is the first I've seen covering the issues the utilities may have with rooftop solar and net metering - that they cannot measure the amount being fed to the grid and that leads to fluctuations which cause them problems. I suspect they are dissembling since net metering tells them how much is being generated (perhaps with less lead-time than they'd like) but as large storage batteries come on the market, their arguments will be vitiated as homeowners cut yet another cord.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/19/business/energy-environment/solar-power-battle-puts-hawaii-at-forefront-of-worldwide-changes.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/19/business/energy-environment/solar-power-battle-puts-hawaii-at-forefront-of-worldwide-changes.html?_r=0)
As noted earlier by a former Secretary of Energy, the utilities best move would be to become the suppliers of rooftop solar. And they need to do this while they still have the financial wherewithal to manage it.
And the utilities could deal with the fluctuations plus offer customers greater reliability by employing flow batteries to absorb excess solar energy, deploy it during demand peaks as well as function as a grid-scale UPS.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/23/business/energy-environment/liquid-batteries-for-solar-and-wind-power.html?ref=science (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/23/business/energy-environment/liquid-batteries-for-solar-and-wind-power.html?ref=science)
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My earlier savings estimates look to have been incorrect (I wasn't using the right formula to make the estimation).
Here are (hopefully) more accurate numbers for my estimated monthly savings, beginning last June:
$68, $84, $76, $104, $55, $20, $13, $13, $9, $17.
Here's how I calculated the number for each month:
Actual cost: Electric Utility fixed monthly costs + (total kwh used * electric utility kWh rate) + (solar kWh generated * solar kWh rate). The billing cycles don't line up, so I shift the solar one to line up with the electric utility one.
Estimated cost without solar: (total kwh used * electric utility kWh rate) + electric utility fixed monthly costs
Estimated Savings: Estimated cost without solar - Actual Cost
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As was long anticipated, Tesla has introduced large residential Lithium batteries that can be charged during peak time for solar and then used to power the residence during solar blackout times. It could allow someone like Noam to cut-the-cord, eliminating net-metering.
- http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/innovations/wp/2015/05/01/teslas-powerwall-is-the-latest-step-toward-our-clean-energy-future/
- http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/04/30/why-teslas-announcement-could-be-such-a-big-deal/ (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2015/04/30/why-teslas-announcement-could-be-such-a-big-deal/)
- http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/01/business/energy-environment/with-new-factory-tesla-ventures-into-solar-power-storage-for-home-and-business.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/01/business/energy-environment/with-new-factory-tesla-ventures-into-solar-power-storage-for-home-and-business.html)
- http://fortune.com/2015/05/01/tesla-energy-reveal/ (http://fortune.com/2015/05/01/tesla-energy-reveal/)
Here's an interesting quote from the Fortune article.
All of the power walls and power packs are connected to the Internet and so we’re actually able to get real-time feedback. We’re able to work with the utilities to shift power around and actually manage the grid and we’ll integrate obviously with software like SolarCity’s. If there are other companies out there with compatible software like SolarCity we’ll integrate with theirs too.
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And here's yet another device Noam can add to his system to make him further independent of the grid,
http://www.forbes.com/sites/billtucker/2015/05/07/wind-power-without-the-mills/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/billtucker/2015/05/07/wind-power-without-the-mills/)
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I have a small wind turbine at my off grid place to help.
Although it is generally not noticeable it can get very noisy in heavy wind.
The thing with wind turbines is most home units need a steady wind of at least 5-7 miles a hour to start producing anything.
It will be interesting to see the specs on these units and just how quite they really are.
If you have a windy location a turbine will out perform solar and be less costly however I doubt they will be as maintance free.
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And here's yet another device Noam can add to his system to make him further independent of the grid,
http://www.forbes.com/sites/billtucker/2015/05/07/wind-power-without-the-mills/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/billtucker/2015/05/07/wind-power-without-the-mills/)
Interesting idea. I doubt my wife would go for it, though. We live at the bottom of a hill (technically, we are uphill in 3 directions - the fourth ends in a cul-de-sac that backs up to a slope down to a creek).
I don't think we get enough wind to make this useful.
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Yet another entry into the residential solar market...
http://www.engadget.com/2014/04/23/google-sunpower-solar-panel-fund/ (http://www.engadget.com/2014/04/23/google-sunpower-solar-panel-fund/)
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SolarCity is looking like a good long-term investment opportunity.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/3549236-solarcitys-massive-manufacturing-ambitions-look-increasingly-realistic (http://seekingalpha.com/article/3549236-solarcitys-massive-manufacturing-ambitions-look-increasingly-realistic)
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/215555-0-55-per-watt-from-solarcitys-record-breaking-new-solar-panel (http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/215555-0-55-per-watt-from-solarcitys-record-breaking-new-solar-panel)
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That's part of the reason I went with them ;-)
I've been very satisfied with them so far, and haven't noticed any problems with my X10 system as a result.
Shameless plug for them (and so I can earn some more referral awards):
If anyone is interested in getting a quote for solar for their home through SolarCity, here is my referral link:
http://share.solarcity.com/parness
The link above sends your information right to the Energy consultant, who will contact you directly. If you want to speak to me about it first, either hit me up with a direct message here, or e-mail me at: "solar *at* parness *dot* net" .
--Noam
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Texas actually has an electricity market wherein utilities actually compete with each other. The Texas grid is also largely independent of the rest of the US so utilities cannot readily sell surplus power to other regions. Here's an interesting article...
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/09/business/energy-environment/a-texas-utility-offers-a-nighttime-special-free-electricity.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/09/business/energy-environment/a-texas-utility-offers-a-nighttime-special-free-electricity.html)
which starts with this paragraph.
In Texas, wind farms are generating so much energy that some utilities are giving power away.
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Here's an article that discusses the major points in a UN report on worldwide energy issues.
http://www.vox.com/2016/3/24/11300698/wind-solar-growth (http://www.vox.com/2016/3/24/11300698/wind-solar-growth)
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Solar/wind isn't available all the time. At night and on windless days these plants don't provide any significant power. Since storing energy in a large enough quantity to meet the grid's needs is ludicrous, backup energy sources are used. Generally, that means coal power plants. I have no data to support this, but in my state the wind farms have new coal burning backup plants. The irony here is that Washington state has one of the largest hydro dams in the country but it's not considered clean energy, so they built wind farms down the river and coal plants just beyond to help. B:(
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Had you read the article, they discuss that - making the same point you do.
But, they also discuss the large increase (with more planned) in utility level storage capacity intended to address it.
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TL;DR(all of it). I read the first couple sections and ran out of time but this is a topic I've been interested in for quite some time. Nice link!
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The irony here is that Washington state has one of the largest hydro dams in the country but it's not considered clean energy,
wow!, how can that be??
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This is very interesting. I'm in the process of installing 8.6kw system and my biggest interest is storing all this energy. Tesla powerwall comes to mind but pricey.
Recently I was in a remote area of Baja Sur in Mexico and they are completely off grid. About 100 population and they store in DC packs somewhere. So you can watch TV, whatever at night. Awesome system. At least wind is available at night, just put them in the right places.
I will probably go with a natural gas generator as my back up vs. battery but the battery option is just so tempting. I'm surprised coal is still being utilized when natural gas is so much easier to move around. I do have natural gas now for cooking, heating, etc.
BTW, I bought my system, not leased.
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The irony here is that Washington state has one of the largest hydro dams in the country but it's not considered clean energy,
wow!, how can that be??
This might explain part of it.
http://www.bluefish.org/drought.htm (http://www.bluefish.org/drought.htm)
http://www.stateofsalmon.wa.gov/statewide/hydro-summary/ (http://www.stateofsalmon.wa.gov/statewide/hydro-summary/)
I don't live there and haven't visited for many years but I'd hate to see the salmon disappear (unless going down my gullet).
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This is very interesting. I'm in the process of installing 8.6kw system and my biggest interest is storing all this energy. Tesla powerwall comes to mind but pricey.
Their new factory may lower costs but this might be another factor...
http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterdetwiler/2015/06/22/24m-a-lithium-ion-battery-breakthrough-technology/#20db00bb333d (http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterdetwiler/2015/06/22/24m-a-lithium-ion-battery-breakthrough-technology/#20db00bb333d)
If it were me, I'd try to stay as flexible as possible, by avoiding any major investment in a permanent backup system with technology advancing and costs falling.
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I got a Forbes welcome screen???
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I got a Forbes welcome screen???
Are you blocking scripts? Or are you seeing a "Click to proceed to site."?
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Neither. Sometimes I see proceed to site, sometimes I have to wait. This time there is just the screen.
It almost works in Firefox. But Firefox complains about outdated Flash on the site. Chrome won't even let me continue. IE11 handles it properly. Thanks.
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It almost works in Firefox. But Firefox complains about outdated Flash on the site. Chrome won't even let me continue. IE11 handles it properly. Thanks.
I use Firefox with the Shockwave Flash add-on. I've uninstalled Adobe Flash due to security issues.
http://ezinearticles.com/?Adobe-Flash-Player:-A-Risk-To-Privacy-and-Security&id=5147319 (http://ezinearticles.com/?Adobe-Flash-Player:-A-Risk-To-Privacy-and-Security&id=5147319)
Here's another article on some similar technology.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/secretive-company-claims-battery-breakthrough/ (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/secretive-company-claims-battery-breakthrough/)
The Forbes story was about this company.
http://24-m.com/ (http://24-m.com/)
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I noted earlier in the thread that some Texas wind utilities were giving away power at night. This morning the NYT has an article about Energy Department approval of transmission lines to transport the wind energy surplus of the Texas/Oklahoma panhandle to other regions.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/26/business/energy-environment/wind-power-transmission-project-in-plains-earns-us-approval.html?ref=business (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/26/business/energy-environment/wind-power-transmission-project-in-plains-earns-us-approval.html?ref=business)
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I'm surprised coal is still being utilized when natural gas is so much easier to move around. I do have natural gas now for cooking, heating, etc.
Most of the major banks appear to agree with you.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/21/business/dealbook/as-coals-future-grows-murkier-banks-pull-financing.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/21/business/dealbook/as-coals-future-grows-murkier-banks-pull-financing.html)
And that may be a much bigger factor than the environmentalists.
I live in a building that uses hot water heat from a gas fired boiler. I've been surprised that the retail price of gas has not followed the wholesale market.
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I had to disable ad blocking to get to the article. I turned it back on after through the banner.
Interesting technology. Only issue I see is that they are not at production yet and they believe they will reach a 50% reduction in overall battery costs. If they can do that, then backup batteries may become viable down the road. They are currently too small and expensive from what I've read about the Tesla solution.
Washington is really 2 climates though only 1 is reported on. Western WA (Seattle) gets rain around 300 days a year. Eastern WA is a desert. The water that feeds the generators at Grand Coulee comes from the Columbia which is fed by the Rockies. We had a bit of a drought in Western WA last year or two, but this winter has been one of the wettest on record. Things tend to be cyclical and the El Nino is certainly making my lawn soggy right now. I know that last year spring was pretty dry as the game bird hatch was really good. I hadn't heard that there was a significant difference in the water flow through the dam because of the W. WA drought, but it's certainly possible. Heck, there's a man made lake that expensive homes have been built on which was half empty because the state decided not to divert water into it so you're probably right!
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I had to disable ad blocking to get to the article. I turned it back on after through the banner.
I hadn't thought of that - will have to try it. I've had AdBlock it set to turn off at their site and come back automagically when I exit. That's probably why it didn't occur to me to suggest ad blocking as the cause of the problem accessing the article.
There are almost daily articles (in reputable publications) about new advances in the basic technologies (e.g. improved solar efficiency, lower fabrication costs, new transmission lines) so it's likely there will be cost effective storage solutions in the near future.
And, yes, I think it rained every time I was in Seattle.
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We generally check the flights to see when people are arriving to make it rain. Keeps the tourists from staying too long. ;D
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This is sure to slow the adoption of residential solar...
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/27/business/energy-environment/why-home-solar-panels-no-longer-pay-in-some-states.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/27/business/energy-environment/why-home-solar-panels-no-longer-pay-in-some-states.html)
while increasing demand for storage batteries.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/tesla-opens-gigafactory-expand-battery-204937250.html?nhp=1 (https://www.yahoo.com/news/tesla-opens-gigafactory-expand-battery-204937250.html?nhp=1)
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A different type of solar power.
http://gizmodo.com/solar-capture-technique-turns-co2-into-burnable-fuel-1784522575 (http://gizmodo.com/solar-capture-technique-turns-co2-into-burnable-fuel-1784522575)
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A different type of solar power.
http://gizmodo.com/solar-capture-technique-turns-co2-into-burnable-fuel-1784522575 (http://gizmodo.com/solar-capture-technique-turns-co2-into-burnable-fuel-1784522575)
This is interesting, but with an output of carbon monoxide the AGW lunies will have a cow.
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A different type of solar power.
http://gizmodo.com/solar-capture-technique-turns-co2-into-burnable-fuel-1784522575 (http://gizmodo.com/solar-capture-technique-turns-co2-into-burnable-fuel-1784522575)
This is interesting, but with an output of carbon monoxide the AGW lunies will have a cow.
As I understand it the two byproducts plus water equals usable liquid fuel. Of course, the cow's methane will be counterproductive.
Here's another article...
http://www.takepart.com/article/2016/07/28/experimental-artificial-leaf-solar-cell-converts-co2-usable-fuel (http://www.takepart.com/article/2016/07/28/experimental-artificial-leaf-solar-cell-converts-co2-usable-fuel)
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And yet another article on batteries for storing solar energy.
http://www.computerworld.com/article/3102132/home-tech/big-batteries-for-every-home-and-business-energy-storage-to-double-this-year.html?google_editors_picks=true (http://www.computerworld.com/article/3102132/home-tech/big-batteries-for-every-home-and-business-energy-storage-to-double-this-year.html?google_editors_picks=true)
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I'm pretty sure CO is ok. Wikipedia (the sole authority on truth) says:
The primary greenhouse gases in Earth's atmosphere are water vapor, carbon dioxide, methane, nitrous oxide, and ozone.
So, the silent killer is ok. Actually, since it kills people who created AGCC, it's probably a good thing these days. ::)
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Here's yet another article on solar.
http://qz.com/871907/2016-was-the-year-solar-panels-finally-became-cheaper-than-fossil-fuels-just-wait-for-2017/ (http://qz.com/871907/2016-was-the-year-solar-panels-finally-became-cheaper-than-fossil-fuels-just-wait-for-2017/)
Here's a short quote.
Solar is projected to fall to half the price of electricity from coal or natural gas within a decade or two.
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I am immediately suspicious of any acritical that refers to petro fuels as fossil fuel. Since NASA spend nearly a decade researching that. Whereas coal IS inherently fossil related... (and where the term originated). Most petro fuel found in this solar system (Earth's included) has been identified as mineral based decomposition... NOT organic.
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Most petro fuel found in this solar system (Earth's included) has been identified as mineral based decomposition... NOT organic.
Someone should tell the NASA scientists studying Titan about this.
http://www.space.com/4968-titan-oil-earth.html (http://www.space.com/4968-titan-oil-earth.html)
Cassini has mapped about 20 percent of Titan's surface with radar. Several hundred lakes and seas have been observed, with each of several dozen estimated to contain more hydrocarbon liquid than Earth's oil and gas reserves, according to a NASA statement. The dark dunes that run along the equator contain a volume of organics several hundred times larger than Earth's coal reserves.
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Someone should tell the NASA scientists studying Titan about this.
..... Cassini has mapped about 20 percent of Titan's surface with radar. Several hundred lakes and seas have been observed, with each of several dozen estimated to contain more hydrocarbon liquid than Earth's oil and gas reserves, according to a NASA statement. The dark dunes that run along the equator contain a volume of organics several hundred times larger than Earth's coal reserves.
There you go! NASA just found known organic LIFE... on Titian. :)% rofl
No life on Titian (http://www.esa.int/Our_Activities/Space_Science/Cassini-Huygens/Life_on_Titan) but many who firmly believe that many of Earths features must be life related become confused when finding the same features on dead/lifeless planets. That is why it is best to refer to petro-fuels.... as petro fuels.
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One definition of organic is...
of, relating to, or containing carbon compounds
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/organic (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/organic)