X10 Community Forum
🖥️ActiveHome Pro => ActiveHome Pro General => Help & Troubleshooting => Topic started by: kamiller42 on February 04, 2012, 07:05:04 PM
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I am hoping the electricity whizzes can help me with this.
Given:
3 recessed CFL lights.
1 XPS3 & 1 XPSS
Following tests performed:
1. Press XPSS, XPS3 relay does rapid on/off cycle. Does not remain on.
2. Press & hold XPSS, XPS3 lights remain lit.
3. Press XPS3, nothing.
4, Remove all 3 light bulbs & press XPSS, XPS3 relay clicks on and stays on. Press again, XPS3 turns off. Press XPS3, nothing... ever.
5. With 3 bulbs out and XPS3 on, I screw in a bulb. Bulb shows very small flicker but never powers on. XPS3 remains on.
That's the easy part. I have swapped both switches with known working switches with same results. The old switches work fine in another 3 way application.
What is bugging me is this installation used to work. What should I check with wiring? What are the possible causes?
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Did you happen to swap the bulbs from incandescent to CFL when the problems started?
If you did. They may have never been wired right and the incandescent bulbs where providing some path back to the AC Line that a CFL can't do.
If you substitute some incandescent bulbs to aid in troubleshooting. Does anything change?
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Hi Brian. I never had incandescent bulbs installed. I tested the fixtures using incandescent bulbs. They do the same as the CFLs, specifically...
1. Press XPSS, XPS3 relay does rapid on/off cycle. Does not remain on.
2. Press & hold XPSS, XPS3 lights remain lit.
3. Press XPS3, nothing.
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"XPSS Slave Switch has no load bearing capacity and only operates
in conjunction with the XPS3 20A Master, XPDI3 Inductive Dimmer
or the XPD3 Incandescent Dimmer Switches."
Are your XPS3/XPSS (WS13a/WS14) wired correctly? Seems likely they are not.
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"Are your XPS3/XPSS (WS13a/WS14) wired correctly? Seems likely they are not. "
I've installed a couple of these combos with no problem. And this one, unless my memory is failing, used to work.
Your suspicion is mine too. I keep wanting to say there is a wiring problem. (My #1 suspicion is a neutral gone bad.) I keep looking things over and see no logical reason for things not to work. It's maddening.
Here's a description of the electrical setup. At the top of some stairs are three switches: one for hall light, one for the 3 recessed lights at the top of the stairs, and a third for the stair lights. The hall light and stair lights also have switches at the bottom of the stairs. The way the electricians ran the wires is to run all power to the three switches and have the loads at the remote switches. The hall light is currently configured with a WS13a/WS14 and working fine.
What I am hoping is someone recognizes these symptoms and suggests wiring to check. Something like "An open on the neutral would cause that." If not that, maybe some measurements I could take. I could swap the WS13/WS14 positions, but I don't really see that working.
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if i read your last post correctly, the loads are on the remotes switches boxes. That shouldn`t be there.
If you read the leaflet that comes with the switches, the only way to wire it to make it works is to have the line and load on the same box because you need ALL 3 wires to hook up your remote correctly.
The 3-way setup you have use the white wire to supply neutral to your lights and you need the white wire to act as a traveller in the leaflet. You also need to power the main switches trough the remotes (main switch black wire should be connected to the black traveller wire coming from the remote )
It will work if you use ordinary switches but in an X10 setup, you need to have the white wire to act as a traveller, that`s your bug.
The only way to make it works is to rewire the loads to put it on the main switches boxes instead of the remotes ones.
Hope it will help
Sorry for the answer, but it`s the only way, i think, to make it works.
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I'm not sure if that's true.
With "standard" 3-way switches, there should be three wires going between the two boxes, used for the two travelers, (usually Black and Red - one at a time is HOT), plus the neutral wire. At the remote box, the switch connects one or the other traveler to the Black wire going to the load.
Therefore, you should be able to hook it up this way:
Wires coming OUT of the Local box:
Black: Hot
White: Neutral
Red: Traveller
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i suggest noam and you to go to this site and see how to hook up 3-way switches:
BTW reading the leaflets will help too
http://www.homeimprovementweb.com/information/how-to/three-way-switch-option5.htm
in this case it`s the load (blue wire) should be returned to the light and you don`t have the wires to do that.
If you do it this way with X10 Installation , you always miss a wire (the load or the neutral).
hope it will help
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i suggest noam and you to go to this site and see how to hook up 3-way switches:
BTW reading the leaflets will help too
http://www.homeimprovementweb.com/information/how-to/three-way-switch-option5.htm
in this case it`s the load (blue wire) should be returned to the light and you don`t have the wires to do that.
If you do it this way with X10 Installation , you always miss a wire (the load or the neutral).
hope it will help
With all due respect, I do know how to wire up 3-way switches. However, X10 (or other "special" switches) sometimes have unusual wiring setups.
I've never set up any of the X10 3-way switches, but I did install a smarthome set a few years ago. I found that with my smarthome switches, and it looks the same with the X10 one from the instructions, that the "Remote" switch should be in the "Local" box, and the "Master" switch should go closer to the load.
There are only two wires connecting between the two switches. the third wire in the cable is the neutral.
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FWIW
As far as the the X10 switches that do not require a neutral, It really should not matter (much) whether the master is on the load side or the line side of a three way. The exception is a brach with low X10 signal strength or noise. In that situation tying the master's Black wire to the line or hot may provide a stronger signal to the switch.
http://software.x10.com/pub/manuals/ws12a-14a-is.pdf
http://www.x10pro.com/pro/pdf/plw02.pdf
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I re re re read the leaflet and in the way kamiller said in the first time, it should work. I agree with you that`s a neutral problem to the master.
Just check all the connections.
Sorry for everything :)
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Ok gentlemen. Thanks for your patience. My attention was pulled elsewhere, and I wanted to have some pictures the next time I came back to this thread. Now I do.
In this image, I tagged the wires with incoming power with green dots. You can see all of the switches getting their power from that wad with the red cap. The blue dot wires go to the remote end.
(http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/284/p1000958x.jpg)
This is a shot of the remote end. One of the cables is coming from the master switch and the other to the light.
(http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/1513/p1000960m.jpg)
If you need a different view, let me know and I will take a picture. Does these help illuminate the problem?
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Thanks for the pictures.
It is a little hard to tell from the picture which wire is going into which terminal on the two switches.
Can you tell us which wire is going into which terminal at each end, and what the terminals are marked?
Also, which unit is at which end of the setup currently?
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if i compare your pictures with this diagram: http://software.x10.com/pub/manuals/ws13a-ws14a-is.pdf
I can see your master on the remote box and the slave on the main box and the unscrewed switches are the ones that we talk about. is that correct ??
If it so, i think one of the traveler is missing on the slave switch. the red one who comes from the master and wired to the control terminal.
I agree with NOAM, that is hard to see and with a map of the wiring, it will be easier
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The upper picture is the slave/companion switch. It's the center in the middle, not the one on the right. That's the switch for the stairs, and it works fine. The traveler for the companion is not screwed in. I unscrewed it earlier. Problem exists even if it is screwed in.
The master is the lower picture, aka the remote end. You can see the red traveler. The picture below gives another look at the setup.
(http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/4364/imag0090yr.jpg)
The green dot is the live wire coming from the companion switch. The blue wire is going to the light. The electrician wrapped its wire around the live wire. You can see the coil in the pic. The red and white wires are obvious. The pink dot wire is ground. It goes nowhere.
The wiring for the companion switch is in the other picture. The green dot wire is live power from the electric co. The blue dot one is going to the master switch on the remote end. Both are screwed into the live bus. Lastly, the red wire is screwed into the top position, but isn't in the picture. If it was, it would look like the switch on the right.
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a simple test to know if your neutral is broken is to measure the continuity between the neutral and ground, it should read around zero ohm with an electric meter (multimeter). They are tied together in the electrical panel.
you should have 120 V (or around) between the ground and the live wire that comes from the remote switch.
If you press the switch and read between the neutral and the red one, you`re supposed to have 120 v and when you release the switch it should go to zero. Do this test on both ends of the wire to see if it`s the same, if it`s not, the red wire is broken. Ask someone to press the master when you do the test on the remote end.
Take care !!! all these tests should be done with breaker ON
Do you have more than one circuit who comes from the panel in these boxes ?
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Ok. I made some measurements. We might be on to something.
At remote end, where the master switch and the load is, resistance between ground and neutral is nearly 0 or 0. Voltage between line feed and ground is 0 when companion switch is not pressed. It goes live when the companion switch is held down.
As for the traveler, something odd here. Without pressing companion switch, it reads 125VAC, essentially live, but with no amps. When pressing companion switch, reading is the same. Its voltage never reads 0 between traveler and ground or neutral. I removed the traveler from the companion switch, and the reading for the traveler is still 125VAC at the master switch. When I measure the traveler, still disconnected, at the companion switch, it reads 0.
Ideas?
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You should always have 120v on the live feed on the master switch, it`s the way your master is powered. The only purpose of the XPSS is to give a strike on the red wire to the control screw of the master.
does the line feed and the black wire who goes to the master switch are on the same screw on the remote ?
try to put it together and plug back the red one on both ends.
Does this wire are plugged in the master <<live>> screw ?
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Voltage between line feed and ground is 0 when companion switch is not pressed. It goes live when the companion switch is held down.
Ideas?
Yes. What you are calling "Line Feed" must really be a traveller. So your "Line", "Live", "Hot", etc. must be on the champanion switch(?). I have not followed this thread well....when you made your measurements was the bulb in the fixture or removed? Should be removed initially to make sure you are not measuring a switched neutral through the bulb. (the hot line actually feeds the fixture first).
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The remote switch are the closest in this setup, of the electrical line.
We call the live feed, in this case, the wires who supply power to the remote and the main switch (in this order). In this setup, it`s a traveller who plays this role. Live feed and traveller is the same wire.
Kamiller : instead of trying to fix x10 switches, you can try to make it work with real switches (mechanical), it will be easier to track down wich wire is defect, or miswired.
If you want the plan, just check on the previous posts, i put a link for the schematics.
Hope it will help
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We call the live feed, in this case, the wires who supply power to the remote and the main switch (in this order). In this setup, it`s a traveller who plays this role. Live feed and traveller is the same wire.
Yeah, I got that. But I wasn't clear about "traveller" The fact the companion switch controls voltage on the "line feed" means its not a "line feed" it is really the control line from the companion (a.k.a "traveller"). I think the companion switch is wired wrong. The "live" and the "line feed" needs to go to the companion switch feed through connections.
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Rejoice! I shall say it again, rejoice! :)
When y'all said the line feed should always have voltage, not the traveler, I start to wonder if it was possible the master switch's live wire was actually the traveler, as mentioned. It was hard to believe a red wire would become a black and a black wire red, so I tested the traveler wire using a cable probe. Sure enough, the red wire becomes the black. I put the red wire in the master's live position and the black wire in the traveler. Presto. It works!
Thank you guys for you patience and help!