X10 Community Forum
💬General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: cj4331 on December 11, 2013, 10:21:44 AM
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I got into X10 late--around 2006. I have Active Home Pro controlling 4 lights and one appliance for all that time. I also use one motion sensor, 2 large remotes and a mini timer. I've used a couple other appliances over the years too and at Christmas I add 6 Christmas light plug in modules. I also used 2 other motion detectors and a chime for awhile.
I can't say as my history with X10 has been all pleasant. The motion detectors despite being indoor/outdoor didn't handle rain well and over time the buttons that setup the units failed to work--2 have been trashed now. The chime broke. I have a couple outlets that will not get a signal due to a quality surge protector I use on my TV stuff. I have other outlets that are spotty and the motion sensors suffered from frequent oversensitivity and their range wasn't good. Even the USB transceiver (I forget the number) that works with Active Home Pro became erratic at keeping time and I can no longer count on it doing that effectively. Due to some outlets not receiving signals well my Christmas light setup is always frustrating and not as effective as I like. B:(
First--no advise on fixing the problems please. >*< I know money (filters, replacement surge protector, bridges, repeaters, etc.) will fix everything. I've dealt with each issue when it came up and I fully understand the issues and made the right decision for me on dealing with it.
Despite my problems I rely on the system for some things and at the prices they were selling for a couple yeas back when my email box received several "special offer" emails a day from them, X10 was a good value. >! Now it seems prices have doubled--nope, probably tripled--and the stuff looks exactly the same. ::) I don't see the value any more. I was thinking about buying a couple more motion sensors and a new chime but I'll pass now. :'(
I think X10 went out of business and has been restarted by a new owner--correct? ???
Well with things the way they are now what do y'all think is the future. Z-Wave? INSTEON? X10? I'm not complaining, just lamenting and wanted to see what everyone else thinks.
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Everything has its problems. ::) :'
Some have good luck with Zwave, INSTEON, Wi-Fi, ....
I've had good luck with X10 :)%
I haven't experimented with much other then Zwave and Wi-Fi more so Wi-Fi (EasyBulb, WeMo & IP Cameras)
Reliable Wi-Fi depends on a good quality modem/router and a good internet connection to control from other locations.
This also depends on location of the router just like the placement of a X10 transceiver.
My WI-FI setup isn't as extensive as my x10 but it has issues I'm still working out. B:(
>!
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...... Well with things the way they are now what do y'all think is the future. Z-Wave? INSTEON? X10? I'm not complaining, just lamenting and wanted to see what everyone else thinks.
Hummmm..... I hate predicting the future. The odds of failure are almost guaranteed. Sorry for the length.... I've REALLY missed these forums.
History: The problem with Home Automation has always been it's complexity. Most Home Automation setups were constructed and owned by electrical-mechanical minded DIY types. For most HA (Home Automation) types.... the setup was a hobby... and justified itself.
Other users of HA had a problem that they wanted/needed to resolve... which justified the cost/effort. Whether it was Christmas lights, water sprinklers, a pool pump on a timer.... Or being able to unlock a door when bed-ridden... cost and effort was justified.
Presently: Home Automation is now being marketed like never before... being sold as a service... with TV commercials (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xmzmdi7Sqgc&feature=share&list=FLwSIYbHjKdHux-_Rimhs2hg) and everything. And purchased installed as a monthly fee... like cable TV or a security alarm. And both marketed and sold by the same security alarm and cable TV people. Integrating these services with smart phones has proven to be very desirable. Service providers claim sales increasing at 15% per year.
The Future: I don't think DIY is going to subside! As the "service automation" sales increase I think (predict) so will the demand for DIY HA products. I think many HA users really enjoy creating thier HA setups. Also... many of us are too cheap (or poor) to consider the "automation for fee" service plans.
But whether purchased, leased, or DIY.... I expect to see (another prediction) a variety of brands and types of systems. RF is limited in its size and isn't for everywhere. PLC (like X10's PowerLine Command) isn't perfect for every user but is near limitless in its uses and the number of units/modules that can be used. The new WiFi IP-addressed modules are nice.... but once again... limited by RF restrictions.
In my vision of the future I see near limitless integration of whatever products and/or services the user may want to accomplish whatever level of automation is desired. The inclusion of smart phones and tablets makes full fledged automation systems pretty exciting. The HUGE number of available HA apps and people with technical skills make DIY easier than ever before. The only decision for the user will be monthly fee... or just build and own the system yourself.
Or maybe even combo systems. Like buy via service-fee... systems like the alarm system.... but build/create/own the camera monitoring, smartphone viewing portion of the setup. Then mix X10 and Z-wave or INSTEON for lighting and/or specialized control.
In the future..... I see more autonomous homes. Homes that can tell when to warn the resident that a garage door was left open.... or decide to just close the door. Homes that detect leaks, drafts, or unexpected activity and sends texts to the homes residents. Texts an image of someone ringing the door bell. So the home owner can speak directly to the visitor via the cellphone/intercom link. Or maybe.... the house will automatically turn off the alarm, unlock the door, and announce the allowed entry of the expected visitor... based on calendar schedule and facial recognition.
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The overall cost of X10 was a big consideration for folks in the past (and still is to me). The CM15A controller with all it's problems seems to be still the same old hardware and the software who knows ;D.
The ability that's allows the CM15A to run without being attached to a PC 24/7 is valuable I would think with the emergence of Wi-Fi development in the future.
I fall into the category of a minor hobbyist at best ;D
Tony
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The overall cost of X10 was a big consideration for folks in the past (and still is to me). The CM15A controller with all it's problems seems to be still the same old hardware and the software who knows ;D.
The ability that's allows the CM15A to run without being attached to a PC 24/7 is valuable I would think with the emergence of Wi-Fi development in the future.
I fall into the category of a minor hobbyist at best ;D
Tony
The CM15A was way ahead of it's time... (as was the CM11 before that). It was/is amazing what "minor hobbyist" like ourselves have done with computer aided Home Automation. But... newer ideas in technology allows even more amazing stuff. I've read of IP cameras that have a tiny (server) circuit built-in that causes the camera to report-in it's location/IP address to special DNS servers. So...setup with smartphones and such doesn't require special technical skills.
The new ideas and technologies make things better and easier for us hobbyists.
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For a while now I've thought Wi-Fi was the way to go. That is one reason I jumped on the failed Airpad band wagon, launched by the old company. :-[
The new Wi-Fi unit currently being worked on by X10 is a stand alone unit, so I'm told.
It is not a new version of the CM15A. As x10 gets closer to releasing this more details will become available.
I've ask to be kept up to date on this modules development as it progresses and will pass along anything I find out. ;)
Currently they aren't even at the testing stage yet.
There is a new wall switch also in the works a new version of the xps3. The new XPS3 which has a new relay and comes with AGC is said to be less noisy.
It currently is in the production phase and will be available next year.
It is not Wi-Fi but the Wi-Fi module will control it, as well as older x10 units.
I've also suggested any existing modules that get improvements be given new model numbers to avoid confusion, something the old x10 failed to do.
>!
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For a while now I've thought Wi-Fi was the way to go. That is one reason I jumped on the failed Airpad band wagon, launched by the old company. :-[
A word of caution - with WiFi and especially internet access to your HA installation there are enormous security risks. Recent stories about how easily hackers can take control of things like the camera in Mac laptops etc. are merely the tip of the iceberg.
Many years ago I included external control via email with rather rudimentary security via a frequently changed PIN that had to be included in the emailed command. Today, that would not be very secure but a rolling code arrangement similar to what's used with garage door openers would offer good security. Perhaps the new owners of X10 could investigate this for any WiFi and/or internet portal they may be contemplating.
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For a while now I've thought Wi-Fi was the way to go. That is one reason I jumped on the failed Airpad band wagon, launched by the old company. :-[
A word of caution - with WiFi and especially internet access to your HA installation there are enormous security risks.
I don't think so. Virtually all modern routers have pretty sophisticated linking setups. virtually ALL homeowner hacks are human/operator error. If you deliberately setup a computer to accept malware without administrative permission.... and then accept, download, and install malware and viruses.... I don't call that a hack.
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- http://zeenews.india.com/news/net-news/hackers-use-connected-home-appliances-to-launch-global-cyberattack_905067.html
- http://gadgets.ndtv.com/internet/news/large-botnet-traced-back-to-hacked-refrigerator-by-cyber-security-researchers-472608
- http://securitywatch.pcmag.com/security/319244-predictions-securing-protecting-the-internet-of-things
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The major problem is end users home setups.
Modems that many use today have usernames and passwords that are still using the defaults.
Even changing these customer settings doesn't help.
What many don't realize is cable modems have an additional log in accounts for the provider to use.
These accounts have far more access then the typical account the end user uses to set out the wifi settings and such.
Once logged in as the service provider every setting can be changed and all devices accessed.
These account usernames and passwords should also be changed.
If the service Provider needs access for trouble shooting they can ask for the new info and the user should change them after the trouble shooting has been done.
Also these usernames and passwords get reset on a modem hard reset which customer service operators ask be done on a trouble shooting task.
I've been told you should never do this if asked.
>!
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The major problem is end users home setups.
I agree.
However, the proliferation of things connected to the internet (either directly or via connection to the home LAN) makes for a nightmare security scenario. And, the fact that many homes will have things from multiple manufacturers complicates the picture even more. The typical end user will not have the skills to diagnose and plug all the holes.
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- http://zeenews.india.com/news/net-news/hackers-use-connected-home-appliances-to-launch-global-cyberattack_905067.html
- http://gadgets.ndtv.com/internet/news/large-botnet-traced-back-to-hacked-refrigerator-by-cyber-security-researchers-472608
- http://securitywatch.pcmag.com/security/319244-predictions-securing-protecting-the-internet-of-things
Yes.... I know. A piece written by sources at CNN (I think 3 people still consider CNN to be a creditable news source), a news story by some French news source (that I've NEVER heard of), and a free lance writer named.... Fahmida Y. Rashid (world famous.... or does he live in his parents basement) ?!?!?!?!?!?
That's what I hate about the crap side of the internet. So much fake and/or sensualized bull intended to gain the attention of the fearful and Technophobic. So... what now I add links from more credible sources that point out just how rare a home hacking is?????? Should I actually do the math (AGAIN) to show you are much more likely to be shot by some drug addict that kicks down your front door????
There is almost no way to profit and not go to jail by hacking into a neighbors Wi-Fi. If the people are that utterly desperate in the neighbor you live in.... MOVE.
A word of caution - with WiFi and especially internet access to your HA installation there are enormous security risks.
Instead of trying to warn/scare other X10 users about the use of technology.... why not spell out EXACTLY what those "enormous risks" are!!! Please.... what could happen? How would people be harmed? Maybe add the names of some of the people you know that have had this happen.
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Technophobic
Technophobic? I got my FCC license in 1962. In 1981 I bought an Osbourne 1 for use at the multimillion dollar international operation that I ran. Shortly afterwards I bought a Kaypro II for my use at home and a ZX-81 for my sons. A bit later, I gave them the Kaypro II when I bought an IBM PC compatible. I haven't been without a PC since then. Currently, I have 6 desktops (W95-W98-W2000, XP Pro, W7 Pro, multiple OS, iMac, Mac-Mini), 2 laptops, 1 tablet and a WiFi enabled miniPC running Android (GoogleTV) that is plugged into my WiFi-enabled SmartTV. The first machine has 3 swappable HDDs. The multiple OS machine has 10 swappable HDDs with W7 and the 9 most widely used versions of Linux. One desktop connects via wire to my telco-supplied ADSL modem. Everything else (including a printer) uses WiFi. I also have a handful of bootable USB sticks with sufficient memory to run and evaluate other Linux versions. I've written software for all the above as well as designed hardware/firmware with microcontrollers (PICs, Atmel). Most of the above are now idle and powered down because my health has collapsed (spinal tumor, lung cancer, cardiac arrhythmias, plumbing issues, etc.). Being totally disabled and home-bound, I have no need to access my LAN (or HA system) from a smartphone or similar device but am, never-the-less, aware that there are similar security issues for those who do.
The National Institute of Standards http://itl.nist.gov/lab/bulletns/bltnmar03.htm says...
Wireless networks and handheld devices are vulnerable to many of the same threats as conventional wired networks. Intruders who gain access to information systems via wireless communications can bypass firewall protection. Once they have accessed systems, intruders can launch denial of service attacks, steal identities, violate the privacy of legitimate users, insert viruses or malicious code, and disable operations. Sensitive information that is transmitted between two wireless devices can be intercepted and disclosed if not protected by strong encryption. Handheld devices, which are easily stolen, can reveal sensitive information.
Here's a link to 10 Tips for Wireless Home Network Security listing wireless security best practices...
- http://compnetworking.about.com/od/wirelesssecurity/tp/wifisecurity.htm
I practice most, if not all, of those even though aware that all wireless LANs are easily penetrated by MAC and/or AP spoofing. Once the network is accessed, everything on it is vulnerable.
There is a great deal of additional info in the multitude of links at...
- http://compnetworking.about.com/lr/wi-fi_network_security/49599/1/
Bluetooth is probably even more vulnerable but its short range provides some inherent security. EDIT: Bluetooth and Zigbee have vulnerabilities and both can have range of 300 feet.
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Technophobic? I got my FCC license in 1962.........................................................
And..... then ONCE AGAIN... you post useless old links trying to scare others away from enjoying home automation. WHY? Is it you think the YOU'RE smart enough to use the Internet.... it's just EVERYONE ELSE that is too stupid to be on-line? What's the deal? What are you trying to accomplish?
Do you KNOW any HA person that has been harmed in some way by using HA software or products? Share with us what they did wrong and how such a problem could have been avoided. I have read THOUSANDS of HA posts over several years.... and not even once read a report of a HA related hack.
And BTW... Technophobic doesn't mean inept.... it means fearful.
P.S. Sorry about your health... I had hoped you had turned around a bit health-wise. Don't read my posts as an attack on you or your many accomplishments with HA over the past many years. I just think a secure home set-up is well within the average person's ability. besides... It's ten times faster and easier to just kick down a door.... than hack through a router.
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[/b][/i][/u]And BTW... Technophobic doesn't mean inept.... it means fearful.
... I just think a secure home set-up is well within the average person's ability. besides... It's ten times faster and easier to just kick down a door.... than hack through a router.
- http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/technophobic
A secure home WiFi setup is beyond even the technically adept. It's very similar to the way burglars leveraged garage door openers before rolling codes became de rigueur. Listen with an RF receiver, duplicate the RF signal to pretend to be an approved member of the network, then do as you please.
Kicking down a door doesn't allow one to use your home LAN to launch anonymous attacks on internet connected facilities physically located far, far away - all while leaving the homeowner clueless.
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Maybe I read dhoustons post wrong but I don't think he was implying your X10 setup would be less secure.
it is you online stuff that will suffer which many do now a days like online banking, shopping and such.
Hackers exist just to do harm for the fun of it.
Recently even my site was hit and many visitors most likely infected.
Did this kill anyones x10 setup maybe not but if infected and using the same pc for home automation I'm sure it didn't help.
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You can find scare stories about anything you want - the internet is a big scary place full of big scary stories.
At the end of the day almost no-one will...
a) hack into your wireless system,
2) decode your garage door opener, or
iii) hold you hostage and torture you until you give them the combination to your safe.
The OP was asking about the future of X10 and possible alternatives.
X10 works for some, Insteon woks for others and Z-wave, or UPB works for yet others - at my price point I use a mix of X10 and Insteon with the X10 being phased out as modules die.
Responding with scare stories is rarely helpful to anyone asking a simple question.
"I want to buy a gallon of milk, which brand do you like?" does not deserve a response of "you may get carjacked on the way to the store" or "HOOD once had a salmonella outbreak* so don't ever buy that" or "milk is taking food from the mouths of baby cows".
* this may or not be true, I use it simply as a reference to make a point.
Will you fine gentlemen now please stop, and give the OP some decent advice, or STFU and take your ball elsewhere :)
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You can find scare stories about anything you want - the internet is a big scary place full of big scary stories.
And I know of nothing less productive than a scare story ether. (BTW.... I gave a pretty lengthy reply to the OP)
This MIGHT be a perfect opportunity for someone to step up to the plate and start a thread about how to keep a HA PC safe and secure.
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Maybe I read dhoustons post wrong but I don't think he was implying your X10 setup would be less secure.
A couple of points and then I'll go away.
I did not speculate that anyone would want to control your HA. Some folks need a refresher course in reading and comprehension.
I posted my word of caution a day or two before the news stories about thingbots and spam hit the web. Of the links I posted, only the PC Magazine (another obscure scare-mongerer) article predated (by about a month) the thingbot/spam articles and it was more of a warning (from multiple security experts) that Attacks Are Coming.
The problem with WiFi is that source and destination MAC addresses are always in the clear in all the frames. This makes it easy to steal the identity of a router or other WiFi device via MAC spoofing. Even MAC address filtering will not pose any barrier to a bad guy joining your network. Once in the LAN many things are possible but toying with your lights and appliances are likely to be a very low priority given that there may be more interesting and possibly lucrative (or even terrifying) things to do. Anyway, if I wanted to futz with your lights, I'd just give your neighbors some CFLs. :'
Bluetooth has similar vulnerabilities.
- http://www.nsa.gov/ia/_files/factsheets/I732-016R-07.pdf
Imagine what a bogus Bluetooth keyboard might do. I think wireless USB is more secure but I haven't dug too deeply.
Here are more links that provide additional detail about the thingbot/spam attack.
- http://www.technewsworld.com/story/79828.html?google_editors_picks=true
- http://www.proofpoint.com/products/targeted-attack-protection/internet-of-things.php
- http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/01/23/your-refrigerator-is-vulnerable-to-a-cyberattack.html
And, last but not least, here are more on topic links from those obscure Chicken Little scare-mongerers at PC Magazine...
- http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2410889,00.asp
- http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2427593,00.asp
I like the looks of Revolv but haven't a clue about how secure it might be. Many of these systems appear to have been designed by Dr. Pangloss and/or his lab assistant, Pollyanna.
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Anyway, if I wanted to futz with your lights, I'd just give your neighbors some CFLs. :'
Wait ... That was *YOU*!!??? ;)
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Here's an update about the security problems posed by web linked Home Automation devices. This time it's Belkin's WeMo system that has been exposed but similar issues are likely with most embedded systems.
- http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/02/19/wemo_home_automation_is_insecure_ioactive/
- http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/656302
BTW, for those unfamiliar with CERT...
- https://www.cert.org/about/
There's a followup in today's Register that Belkin has released updates to address the flaws.
- http://www.theregister.co.uk/2014/02/20/belkin_on_wemo_bug_get_the_patch/
And, so HA Dave and beelocks will have something to hyperventilate over...
- http://readwrite.com/2013/09/18/internet-of-things-security-disaster-terrorism-war
- http://www.wired.com/opinion/2014/01/theres-no-good-way-to-patch-the-internet-of-things-and-thats-a-huge-problem/
- http://www.darkreading.com/monitoring/cheap-monitoring-highlights-dangers-of-i/240159061
This issue is sure to be ongoing. There are even those who say that, in the near future, the Internet of Things will be renamed Skynet. :o
- http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2014/02/skynet/
- http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/06/internet-of-things-ifttt/
- http://www.computerworld.com.au/article/464821/iot_aussies_prepare_ship_wi-fi_connected_lightbulbs/
- https://lockitron.com/
- http://www.cio.com/article/750242/Cybersecurity_Expert_and_CIO_Internet_of_Things_is_Scary_as_Hell_?page=1&taxonomyId=600013
IoT security probably deserves its own thread.
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Earlier in the thread I posted links to a PC Magazine review of several HA systems that address the OP's question but did not identify them explicitly...
- http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2410889,00.asp
- http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2427593,00.asp
I like the looks of Revolv but haven't a clue about how secure it might be. It would be very easy for the manufacturer to include an X10 RF channel but, failing that, it might be possible for a third party to supply a module that would translate commands meant for some other (unused) system into X10 RF signals.
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You can find scare stories about anything you want - the internet is a big scary place full of big scary stories.
>*<
<sigh>
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I think I am lost. I was looking for the man made global warming forum and was directed to this instead.
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I think I am lost. I was looking for the man made global warming forum and was directed to this instead.
Haven't you heard? The President healed the planet and saved us from global warming. Apparently it was a combination of too low taxes and too high employment (percentage and wages) that caused the warming. A couple more years of the current progress.... and we may be looking at an upcoming ice age.
Please note: This IS in the general category/gen discussion area. And a little humor is a good thing.
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A couple more years of the current progress.... and we may be looking at an upcoming ice age.
I thought we were at the start of one now! rofl
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I think I am lost. I was looking for the man made global warming forum and was directed to this instead.
It's always wise to remember the old adage...
Red sky at night, shepherd's delight.
Sheep drowned in the morning, global warming.
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Yep, this is definitely scary stuff. My wife and I just purchased a smart refrigerator about a month ago. Boy, I sure wish I had seen this page before we bought the frige. I was able to find a story with some tips for those of us who already have the so-called smart appliances.
But even with this, it's still a bit spooky to think that someone else could gain control of your appliances. And possibly even my personal information from our WI-FI network. Anyways, the story is here:http://www.accreditedappliance.net/news/could-your-smart-refrigerator-be-spreading-a-virus/ (http://www.accreditedappliance.net/news/could-your-smart-refrigerator-be-spreading-a-virus/)
- http://zeenews.india.com/news/net-news/hackers-use-connected-home-appliances-to-launch-global-cyberattack_905067.html
- http://gadgets.ndtv.com/internet/news/large-botnet-traced-back-to-hacked-refrigerator-by-cyber-security-researchers-472608
- http://securitywatch.pcmag.com/security/319244-predictions-securing-protecting-the-internet-of-things
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OH JUST GREAT! Not only does my refridgerator send out porn, but my ice cream melts at the same time. B:(
I'm forming "Dave's Revived Luddite Society". There will be a tweet with details soon.