X10 Community Forum
💬General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: ciaccia on November 05, 2014, 07:09:54 PM
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Guys I've been thinking as I do like my X10 system it is really not what the future holds in my eyes.....I know there is talk about this wifi device and such but is RF the way to go now? I mean Lutron RA is expensive but it works and Z-wave is a similar system and is less expensive and has many manufactures integrating with it. I hate to pour more money in my system but I really want to connect to my system via PC or through my smart phone or tablet. Any thoughts on this? Am I crazy for thinking this...I don't want to plug into my CM15A any more and re download my info when the power goes out even though there is a battery back up but it still screws with my timers. I do have my activehome software back up and running thank God to the dedication to you guys on this forum. I think the good old days of buying 3 appliance modules for $30-40 are long gone. just look at the website an appliance module it $23 with no more special deals and a wall switches are $23-$28... Its still cheaper but no deals and its old technology....I don't know what to do! The other systems look so much more enticing.
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FWIW
1. X10 is living on borrowed time, but I bet it is here for another four or five years, or until Z-Wave prices or WiFi system prices drop to same as X10.
2. Z-Wave will lose popularity as more WiFi based systems debut.
3. Z-Wave tends to get slower as the system gets bigger.
4. Z-Wave communication is more reliable than X10.
5. Z-Wave is two way, so the controller always knows the true status of a module.
Having said that, although expensive, the Homeseer program talks X10 and Z-Wave (it can use CM15A or CM11A as an interface). Homeseer acts as a server so can be accessed through internet via remote PC, or tablet - smartphone browser. Homeseer can act as media controller, email server, etc with voice control and text to speech capabilities. Since Homeseer talks both X10 and Z-Wave you could use it as a hybrid system, migrating slowly from X10 to Z-Wave. Also Homeseer has plugins for Phillips Hue system, Lutron RA and Homeworks, Lightolier, DSC, HAI, and Gemini security systems, etc. etc. etc. I have Homeseer ver 2 and like it. Version 3 is out but their upgrade cost is outa control (pun intended).
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I think.... you might be thinking in terms of a worn out paradigm.
Back in the old days.... everything had it's own remote. The TV had it's clicker (OK... I am really old) the VCR had it's remote.... and for your X10 had a PalmPad (or maybe a tabletop plug-in controller. Those were the days huh.
But now you can control everything... in so many different ways. There is no longer a need or advantage to limit your home automation use to a singular flavor. I find that more and more I end up controlling things using my iPhone.... or alternately my android tablet. What's the difference if I over-ride my timer/event X10 lighting using my Melloware app.... and control wifi linked bulbs with some other app? Or use an app and IR device to control the TV, cable box, DVD, and sound system up stairs.... and different setting on that app to control the Home Theater downstairs.
The proliferation of new devices and ways to access and control automation (which will soon include cloud-based automation... I am sure) creates price reducing competition. As well as great new innovation.
There is absolutely no reason whatsoever why X10 can't also include a wifi protocol.... in addition to their RF and PLC control. And no reason why an automation user should limit there setup to one, two, or even three different brands and/or flavors of automation.
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There have been a number of alternatives to X10 introduced in the past few years. A few were reviewed here...
- http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0%2c2817%2c2429518%2c00.asp
And there have been a few more automation hubs that integrate multiple protocols.
Almost all have one thing in common - they lack X10 support.
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I don't want to plug into my CM15A any more and re download my info when the power goes out even though there is a battery back up but it still screws with my timers.
Early in the morning just a couple of weeks ago I was working on the computer. It was still dark outside, but one light was on in my room. My wife had been in the bathroom drying her hair, but came out asking about the power outage. Apparently the power had gone off for a few seconds, but I didn't see it because the computer and light are on our "electronics circuit" fed by a big 2200VA UPS down in the basement. The Ocelot (which is our X10 controller) is also on that circuit, and it runs year after year without a problem. The internal clock battery must be dead by now because it is over a decade old. The only time I connect to it is when I want to tweak a setting - usually for the irrigation system.
Many folks here know our X10 system is virtually 100% reliable. The only quirk we had over the last year was one X10 spotlight had turned on but would not respond to an OFF command. A quick check with the XTBM confirmed no noise on that circuit, and the commands were certainly getting through. Thinking it might be a code setting switch, I started sending different OFF codes with a Maxi Controller. (It was night, and it is impossible to get to that floodlight without a ladder.) Sure enough, the housecode had changed to the one we use for inside lights, and it had responded to one of those ON commands. I figured I would get the ladder out the next day and spin the code switches, but for some reason it was back on its regular housecode. That was months ago, and it has been fine since then. We did have a nasty storm about the time it happened, so maybe some water got somewhere it shouldn't. Anyway, X10 has been 100% this past year except for that.
Jeff
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There have been a number of alternatives to X10 introduced in the past few years. .....And there have been a few more automation hubs that integrate multiple protocols.
Almost all have one thing in common - they lack X10 support.
With the exception of INSTEON? I thought the Internet connected hub they sell offers X10 support. But even so... X10 is suitable as a standalone as well. I use the Melloware App on my phone. And if that app was written to be a little more inclusive... I would think... I could control my X10 with a $70 android tablet and a CM19A.
Like Jeff... my X10 setup runs flawlessly... and has for years. Sure the X10 technology is old. But so is the entire home electrical systems we use (or much of them). X10's biggest problem appears to be the lack of a corporate structure that keeps the product line alive and innovative... IMHO.
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The Foard X10/UPB bridge controller supports both X10 and UPB, and can connected to a network. I have not tried that configuration myself, but I think it requires a PC host. While the software is a little quirky, the Foard is a very capable controller for its price.
Jeff
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With the exception of INSTEON?
I did write almost all. Given that most of the new integrators are ignoring X10 should make folks pause. I suspect they want to avoid support issues - both technical and otherwise.
Both Insteon and UPB have been around for a few years - from when X10 was more viable. Insteon was created by the same engineering team behind Switchlinc (who made X10 compatible devices under license). And even Insteon has dropped X10 support from several switches and modules.
I believe UPB was designed by another team that had originally made X10 devices under license (PCS Powerline Systems of Northridge, California) so that may explain their X10 support.
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_powerline_bus
And Z-wave would not be my choice for the future - there are problems as installations grow. I think WiFi is a better choice although one needs to be aware of LAN security issues. WiFi range is excellent and if each device has its own IP address, there's no need for hubs/bridges. I think it will make for simpler system management.
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...... Z-wave would not be my choice for the future - there are problems as installations grow. I think WiFi is a better choice although one needs to be aware of LAN security issues. WiFi range is excellent and if each device has its own IP address, there's no need for hubs/bridges. I think it will make for simpler system management.
I have never been concerned about limiting my setup to a singular protocol or brand. I have mixed feelings about which secondary or alternate "flavor" or brand of technology I prefer. But I agree WiFi does have some real pluses.
Currently... I will wait to see what X10 is doing. I keep reading and am continually intergrading my phone (and tablet) into my setup (more and more). The phone(s), the Internet (and the cloud), are altering how I imagine automation to be.
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Quirky/Wink collection of smart devices address several HA issues and might be a viable X10 alternative.
- https://www.yahoo.com/tech/here-are-7-affordable-new-gadgets-from-quirky-that-102381445289.html
Wink interfaces with a wide variety of devices from multiple manufacturers.
- http://www.wink.com/products/
And there now is a WeMo coffee maker which I think more sensible than a smart crockpot.
- https://www.yahoo.com/tech/review-the-smartphone-controlled-mr-coffee-sounds-100773398989.html
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I forgot this web page which lists dozens of HA systems.
- http://www.automatedhome.co.uk/home-automation-technology-choices
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Wonderful responses on this I appreciate it....the thing I like about Z-wave is the devices talk to each other to find a path to get the signal as fast as possible to the correct device. I also like that you don't need a computer host as well....Im not a big fan of WiFi myself although the signal is very strong throughout my home I always have devices disconnecting now and then such as I will be using my laptop and my laptop disconnects from the wifi..not the wifi's fault but that has happened and recently at least once a day both my wifi thermostats fall off the network for a bit and jum back on and the only reason why I know that is that I have it email me when it's offline for an extended period of time. Im not to concerned about a security issue with wifi but I think that RF is more reliable in my opinion. I do like that with wifi you can control everything from your router but Lutron RA I donlt think is going anywhere and I will put that in the same category as Z-wave as it uses similar principles. I don't know....I think I'm done with X10 even though it is pretty reliable for me I just want something more modern I guess where I don't have to goto my controller and set it up with my laptop as they are not close to each other and everytime the power goes out I have to re download my timers......So confused but I want something new. Thanks Again :)%
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....... I also like that you don't need a computer host as well......
...... I just want something more modern I guess where I don't have to goto my controller and set it up with my laptop as they are not close to each other and everytime the power goes out I have to re download my timers......So confused but I want something new.
I wouldn't want to live without computer control of my HA setup. Without a computer processor and programs my home wouldn't be smart... it would only be remote controlled. Don't take this wrong.... I like remote controlled! I mean who wasn't impressed with Zenith's Space Commander (http://www.wired.com/2010/10/the-real-original-remote-control-zenith-space-command/). (That doesn't make me sound OLD does it?) But I want more than just a modern "clicker" now-a-days.
I would prefer to use a tablet... or better yet my smartphone as the processor/brain for my HA setup. Right now I use two computers... an old XP laptop and a nearly as old netbook. They re-boot themselves when the power fails so that isn't a problem. But since my phone has more processing power than my first TWO home computers.... I'd like to exploit that. Hopefully... the new X10 interface will help.
Meanwhile.... I think the choice (about which new automation protocol to adopt) may be made when I decide I have a "must have" project/idea. And the technology that can best satisfy my new projects need.... will be the winner.
What I'd really like is to get event generated voice announcements.... like I get now from speakers in my home (generated by one of my computers). But I'd prefer to receive them from (and on) my phone.... wherever I am at. Maybe along with text messages as well... for reference and time dating. And then... to verbally command automation actions using my phone and Siri.
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...the thing I like about Z-wave is the devices talk to each other to find a path to get the signal as fast as possible to the correct device.
If that's the case, Z-Wave has changed considerably from when it was introduced. Then, the networks were configured by a PC and if any devices failed, the chain was broken until reconfigured from the PC. Also, the number of hops was limited to a fairly low number and there was a risk of running out of hops before running out of real estate.
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I hear ya on the computer setup but they do have gateways that you can configure macros, timers and things of the such....They also have tablet and phone apps to use along with email alerts. It just depends on how far you want to go with it....Well I am proud to say I just ordered 3way switch kits a motion sensor and a Z-wave gateway I hope to get it soon and I will post some of my results and if I'm happy or not
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I've seen many users jump on the band wagon.
Of those that stuck with it (I know about ) do not have a Zwave only setup.
One user I know of dumped all x10 and moved straight to Zwave only to return to using X10 after several months. They had a Zwave vera setup and praised it over X10 to the point some users felt they were bashing X10.
I believe like others that have posted here the best home automation setup includes several different protocols.
I hope ciaccia you do keep us informed even if you dump X10 modules completely.
And not just after a few months of success or failure.
>!
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And here's a different approach. A little over a year ago, I was thinking of dumping X10 due to reliability issues. But in the end, I thought I would give it one last shot and purchased the XTB-IIR repeater from Jeff http://jvde.us/xtb_index.htm (http://jvde.us/xtb_index.htm). Since then I haven't looked back, because Jeff's repeater solved all my reliability issues, to the tune of 100% (but to be completely fair, I have always used filters on a few select noisy items - so my home was reasonably X10 friendly - but just not quite good enough).
Subsequent to that, I purchased "better" software and run it on an old/cheap computer - namely,HCA 12.0 Plus connected to Jeff's XTB-232 (its like a CM11 only way, way better). Why?? Because the software allows me to mix & match X10, Insteon, UPB, Z-wave etc. if I should ever choose to do so.
And the software is constantly being updated, so I don't doubt they would add something new/popular that came along. AND - it allows me to do cool stuff that is clumsy or impossible with other methods of control (eg. it checks weather on the internet and turns on/off my wife's car block heater based on temperature, but only during 5AM to 9AM - then Off in daytime regardless). Obviously it also allows me to use the internet (and my phone plus a home Android Tablet via WiFi) to remotely control or monitor various other functions in my home.
I haven't purchased any other signalling technology besides X10...but knowing I can at any time; makes me feel better.
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And here's a different approach. .........
... I purchased "better" software and run it on an old/cheap computer - namely,HCA 12.0 Plus connected to Jeff's XTB-232 (its like a CM11 only way, way better). Why?? Because the software allows me to mix & match X10, Insteon, UPB, Z-wave etc. if I should ever choose to do so.
You may have found the best solution I've read about yet. I wonder why I've never read about this HCA before.
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You may have found the best solution I've read about yet. I wonder why I've never read about this HCA before.
HCA is also called Home Control Assistant. I listed it on our website under X10 Automation Software back when X10WTI went down:
http://jvde.us/forum/index.php?topic=36.0
(I'm sure there are other automation programs out there that I am not familiar with.)
There is a free limited X10-only version of HCA available if you just want to get a feel for how it works. The standard version ($80) supports X10 and Insteon. The Pro version ($160) adds UPB, Zwave, and a bunch more features. (I have no relationship with HCA other than using their free version for testing.)
Many folks use HomeSeer to run their automation systems. That is normally pretty expensive compared with X10 prices, but they are having a Cyber Week sale. I'm pondering picking up a copy for myself.
Jeff
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HCA is also called Home Control Assistant. I listed it on our website under X10 Automation Software back when X10WTI went down:
http://jvde.us/forum/index.php?topic=36.0
(I'm sure there are other automation programs out there that I am not familiar with.)
There is a free limited X10-only version of HCA available if you just want to get a feel for how it works. The standard version ($80) supports X10 and Insteon. The Pro version ($160) adds UPB, Zwave, and a bunch more features. (I have no relationship with HCA other than using their free version for testing.)
Thanks Jeff!
With a free 30 day trial (http://www.hcatech.com/index.php?sid=products&pid=free_trial).... it would be hard to go wrong.
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Admittedly I stumbled on HCA last year when I got re-excited about my X10 investment. Apparently the latest versions are considerably broader than when HCA started. HomeSeer was kinda out of my pay-grade, but the full HCA Plus was "affordable" and does everything I ever wanted to do. In fact some of the permutations and combinations exceed my somewhat limited logical grasp. It has something called visual programmer which helps me a lot....so when finished with a particular program (AKA macro) I lean back and squint at the page to see if I've covered all the ramifications - and it has a "check function" in case I leave some functions dangling.
The if-then-else-plus potential is frankly, quite amazing. Can you tell I'm a fan?
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Ok so far I have purchased 5 switches in the z-wave protocol using vera lite which is also supposed to include insteon and x10 in their ui5 software....its a lot different in how you program scenes and the such but so far I have been enjoying it.....the response to the devices themselves are almost instant...I do like the fact that the non dimmer switches are way quieter than the X10 non dimmers. very quiet....I am still using x10 on some of my system but maybe taking some out....I only have removed one x10 device but Im still looking to see how my interface works with x10
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Ok so far I have purchased 5 switches in the z-wave protocol using vera lite which is also supposed to include insteon and x10 in their ui5 software.................. Im still looking to see how my interface works with x10
Keep us up on that if you would. Many of us have a lot of X10... and I think we'd all like to know how what integrates with what. As we already have invested a bunch in working X10.
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Hi there I just wanted to say that I have installed a total of 16 devices for my Z-wave Network...I do love this protocol so far and have had no issues with it as of yet. I did have some signal issues with the network not seeing a device or two but that was because I had them so far apart and in my area we use conduit and metal boxes so the signal strength gets reduced along with going through walls and the floor BUT this was resolved by adding a Z-Wave receptacle half way down the road and used as a repeater and for some holiday lights so I have them working very good at this point. I am a little disappointed to the fact that I did and do enjoy by X10 devices but it seemed the company never was able to upgrade its product or incorporate something like insteon has...To my knowledge and I know a lot of you know a hell of a lot more than me as Im just an electrician and not an electronics expert in anyway is that X10 is a power carrier device which to me revolutionized home automation as we know it and lasted a hell of a lot longer that any other products on the market. Insteon is a power carrier device that also uses an RF mesh network as well so its similar to a Z-wave and an X10 network working together if I'm correct. I thought when active home pro came out for X10 and the CM15 I was blown away and loved the interface and the smart macros..yes it was a little quirky at times but everyone on here put their heads together and was able to figure out ways to do things to make what each one of us wanted to do. I am very appreciative of this forum and for everyone that puts their input in because if it wasn't for this forum I would not have been an X10 customer/user for as long as I have been.
A BIG THANK YOU AND HAPPY HOLIDAYS #:) >! :)%
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Do any of the other protocols have wall light switches that fit a standard narrow toggle switch plate?
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Do any of the other protocols have wall light switches that fit a standard narrow toggle switch plate?
I think Insteon still offers a couple toggle models, but AFAIK everyone else is paddle style.
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The Insteon Togglelinc is still available. In both On/Off {relay} and Dimmer. White and Ivory seem to be the only two colors now offered.
Since they are not the latest Dual Band {RF and Power line communications} models. No saying how long they will be sold.
Also like most of the Insteon devices. No longer list X10 support.
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Z-wave has standard toggle plate switches..
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Why not consider using BOTH (3?) technologies? I saw this (http://www.smarthome.com/vera-control-ltd-veraedge-us-veraedge-home-automation-controller.html) from SmartHome just today. Doesn't look like it's ready YET... but has a lot of possibilities.
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Why not consider using BOTH (3?) technologies? I saw this (http://www.smarthome.com/vera-control-ltd-veraedge-us-veraedge-home-automation-controller.html) from SmartHome just today. Doesn't look like it's ready YET... but has a lot of possibilities.
At first look this seemed promising, but read the reviews on the version that is supposed to support X10 and Insteon:
http://www.smarthome.com/vera-control-ltd-veralite-insteon-compatible-z-wave-controller.html
I hope X10 comes out with their new controller soon...
Jeff
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I hope X10 comes out with their new controller soon...
Jeff
Is that a CM15A type controller?
Anyone hear anymore peeps about the WiFi interface?
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Anyone hear anymore peeps about the WiFi interface?
Last I heard it is ready to go they are just waiting on decent software.
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I hope X10 comes out with their new controller soon...
Me too Jeff. Me too.
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It's been sometime since I read or posted on this forum and it is refreshing indeed to see some of the old (older) reliable faces that helped me get X10 going in my home. Thanks to Jeff's devices, (I think I own most of them), I was able to get my system running and it is still going strong today. But I have also worried about what will happen if I am unable to get AHP working for some reason. I looked at the HCA and that sure seems to be a reasonable avenue but I was disappointed to see that their website doesn't mention anything newer than Vista. I see that they released a new version this past January, so I would hope they think it will work with Win7 at least. My plan is to try the mid range version and install a separate CM15 so that I could experiment with it without fouling or at least being able to restore the current system. (Is that being too logical??).
Another reason for trying to find something a little more sophisticated is that I need to run my irrigation system in compliance with the water restrictions here in North Texas. So far I haven't figured out how to set up a macro that runs every second Thursday with AHP. It needs to be calendar driven and accept inputs from realtime weather conditions. For a change, we are actually getting some rain here...
Spring has sprung..
Kent
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If you go to this link http://www.hcatech.com/download/V12/Doc/TechNote_CM15.pdf (http://www.hcatech.com/download/V12/Doc/TechNote_CM15.pdf)- they specifically describe setting up CM15A with Windows 7 & 8. So, clearly, their software is compatible with both. The "challenge" with newer versions of windows seems to be installing the driver for CM15A's - not the software itself (although I run Jeff's XTB-232 with my HCA 12Plus system - so I'm only sharing HCA's data for using CM15A, not direct experience).
If you've found outdated material on their website - you should send them a note. I'm sure they don't want to be considered in the same breath as Vista!
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Anyone hear anymore peeps about the WiFi interface?
Bump...bump, bump, bump.
X10.com? Authenix, Tuicemen? anyone?
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I've requested some feed back from Authinx regarding what is going on with the Wi-Fi unit.
Being most of China was shut down for their New Years I have waited to inquire further till now.
I'll post what I hear back in the Wi-Fi modules thread : http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=28628.0
>!
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I saw what you posted Tuicemen. Thanks!!
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If you go to this link http://www.hcatech.com/download/V12/Doc/TechNote_CM15.pdf (http://www.hcatech.com/download/V12/Doc/TechNote_CM15.pdf)- they specifically describe setting up CM15A with Windows 7 & 8. So, clearly, their software is compatible with both. The "challenge" with newer versions of windows seems to be installing the driver for CM15A's - not the software itself (although I run Jeff's XTB-232 with my HCA 12Plus system - so I'm only sharing HCA's data for using CM15A, not direct experience).
If you've found outdated material on their website - you should send them a note. I'm sure they don't want to be considered in the same breath as Vista!
Thanks for the tip. I downloaded the technote and see what the issue is. I will point that out to them as well. Just seeing the list end with Vista was a red flag to me and I am sure others...It would be nice if separate drivers would allow me to run both at the same time allowing me to migrate the system at my leisure. But that may be wishful thinking..
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Hard to say whether AHP & HCA would "fight over" the device. When I switched - my original controllers were 1132CU/Smarthome Manager and CM15A/HCA - but since 1132CU was a downloaded/standalone device, there was really no fighting. But HCA can be pre-programmed for the cut-over even when there is no device connected - which is essentially what I did, anyway.
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Hard to say whether AHP & HCA would "fight over" the device. When I switched - my original controllers were 1132CU/Smarthome Manager and CM15A/HCA - but since 1132CU was a downloaded/standalone device, there was really no fighting. But HCA can be pre-programmed for the cut-over even when there is no device connected - which is essentially what I did, anyway.
Thanks for the info. I am going to give them a try. Summer is not the time for a project like that but I am going to get it started.
Kent
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its old technology....I don't know what to do! The other systems look so much more enticing.
My feeling is "run with what have" (x10). Yes, it maybe considered old technology but it proven and works well. If Authinx had not come on board then it might have been time to consider other options only after component availability was gone (that will be a while - suppliers and auction sites).
X10 started in 1978(?). Will Z-wave and others last that long?
I am putting together a X10 package for a new customer as I write this.
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X10 are very reliable devices. Also there are plenty of platforms which aim to monitor these devices.
I would like to recommend a platform which allows you to control different type of divices, such as mochad,insteon,fitbit etc. Just check it: www.sensorflare.com .
It provides multiconnectivity , reliability, monitoring & automated functionalities. It works on your pc, tablet & smartphone.
And last but not least, it's free ! -:)
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I have a large X-10 system that I installed decades ago. All is well except the wired X-10 with floodlights motion sensor has failed. I do not like the wireless one.
I control it all with the old Plato HouseLink box. I program it with a Windows 7 32 bit Dell laptop which I only use for programming the Plato box. The program will not run on my Windows 10 64 bit OS. I love the simple but powerful Plato GUI.
Are there any other boxes with a great computer GUI that will work with X-10? If so, which is the best?
Thanks!
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I have a large X-10 system that I installed decades ago. ………………………..
..............Are there any other boxes with a great computer GUI that will work with X-10? If so, which is the best?
The X10 forums no longer attracts the viewership it did back-in-the-day. These days.... there are only a handful of us regulars. And I am sure all of us have read each of your several posts.
Your options are NOT limited. But you'll need to decide and express what kind if direction you wish to go.
Are you looking to just replace what you already have and know?
Do you wish to invest a little learning time and money to upgrade?
The changes in Home Automation since you chose X10 back in the early days..... has been staggeringly enormous. Maybe... instead of searching keywords and posting (and reposting) to old threads.... you may want to take a little time and read some current posts.
By the way...... welcome to the X10 forums!
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Hello again Dave. I apologize if I have overwhelmed the Forum with my newbie-like posts. I suspect by now members have an idea of what I am trying to do. I am exhausted now with information overload. I will not be posting at this rate in the future.
Thanks everyone for all of your help!
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I apologize if I have overwhelmed the Forum with my newbie-like posts. I suspect by now members have an idea of what I am trying to do. I am exhausted now with information overload. I will not be posting at this rate in the future.
Thanks everyone for all of your help!
No one is suggesting you slowdown on your rate of posts though repeating the same post in multi areas does raise a red flag.
This is common for forum newbies and spammers, for this reason I've removed some of your repeated posts. ;)
The forum needs more actively posting members (can there ever be too many?)
>!
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…….. I am exhausted now with information overload. I will not be posting at this rate in the future.
Like Tuicemen said/posted.... keep posting! Get a nap.... and hit the automation again. ALOT has happen with Home Automation in recent years. This is truly THE golden age of Home Automation (IMHO). A great time to re-immerge yourself in home-tech. Again.... welcome aboard.
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repeating the same post in multi areas does raise a red flag
Most of my similar posts were the result of not being familiar with this forum yet and responding to posts. Sorry.