X10 Community Forum

🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Topic started by: bkenobi on January 29, 2015, 10:21:06 PM

Title: RF protocol (button up/down)
Post by: bkenobi on January 29, 2015, 10:21:06 PM
I've switched from using AHP + SDK, but I have a question about the RF protocol or perhaps how AHP+SDK sees things.  I don't know if this has been covered, so if so, just point me in the right direction.

When using any RF receiver and pressing a button an a remote (palm pad for instance), there are always 2 commands seen.  AHP shows in the activity monitor that the command was something like:

Code: [Select]
63 1/29/2015 6:33:50 PM Receive RF A1 On
64 1/29/2015 6:33:50 PM Receive RF A1 On
65 1/29/2015 6:33:50 PM Receive A1
66 1/29/2015 6:33:51 PM Receive A On
67 1/29/2015 6:33:51 PM Receive A1
68 1/29/2015 6:33:51 PM Receive A On

But, anyone who's used the SDK probably knows that it shows different results.
Code: [Select]
2015/01/29 18:33:50 RecvAction: recvrf, a1, On, 0, 1/30/2015 2:33:50 AM,
2015/01/29 18:33:50 RecvAction: recvrf, a1, On, -1, 1/30/2015 2:33:50 AM,
2015/01/29 18:33:51 RecvAction: RecvPlc, a1, On, , ,
2015/01/29 18:33:51 RecvAction: RecvPlc, a1, On, , ,

There is a parameter with a value of 0 and -1 in the RF commands.  I assume this is a "button pressed" and "button released" value.  Does anyone know how this works in the RF protocol?  I haven't seen it listed and I don't see it when looking at the raw USB data.
Title: Re: RF protocol (button up/down)
Post by: dhouston on January 30, 2015, 06:29:08 AM
I'm not sure about what you are asking. Also, I've never used AHP nor the SDK so have no clue (and have always thought X10 programmers to be totally clueless) as to their inner workings. I have, however, done a lot with X10 RF and can comment on the RF protocol explained at http://davehouston.org/rf.htm (http://davehouston.org/rf.htm). I also wrote my own software to handle receiving and acting on RF codes many years ago.

When you press a button on a handheld remote, most will send 5 or more copies (SH624 sends a single copy) of the RF code (a very quick push/release is needed to limit it to 5). Motion sensors, door/window switches, Stick-a-Switches, etc. also transmit multiple RF copies. Depending on the received signal amplitude, a transceiver may not act on the first (or first few) codes. The signals serve to reset the transceiver AGC, so later codes in the sequence are heard more clearly. The first code that the transceiver can interpret as a valid X10 code results in the PLC commands for address & function. PLC commands are sent twice. While sending PLC,  the transceiver is deaf to RF but, as soon as the PLC is sent may once again hear RF and duplicate the PLC. My software ignored further RF copies for 600mS to avoid duplicate PLC commands. There's a brief discussion of RF signal, noise, AGC, etc. at http://davehouston.org/rf-noise.htm (http://davehouston.org/rf-noise.htm).

There's nothing in the chain of events that might explain the 0/-1 so it's likely to have meaning only to the programmer(s) who created AHP and/or the SDK. There's a picture of X10's Programmer-in-Chief below.
(http://davehouston.org/goofy.jpg)
Title: Re: RF protocol (button up/down)
Post by: Tuicemen on January 30, 2015, 09:19:56 AM
The SDK will send more then 2 signals when pressed depending on how long you hold down the RF button on a palm pad
0 is pressed -1 is released the longer you hold the button down the SDK will show this with a increasing count 1,2,3......
AHP just shows repeated receives
There's nothing in the chain of events that might explain the 0/-1 so it's likely to have meaning only to the programmer(s) who created AHP and/or the SDK. There's a picture of X10's Programmer-in-Chief below.
(http://davehouston.org/goofy.jpg)
And the X10's Programmer-in-Chief is long gone so we will likely never know for sure the true intention.
Title: Re: RF protocol (button up/down)
Post by: Brian H on January 30, 2015, 09:51:31 AM
WGL Model: W800RF32
X10 HR12A Palm Pad. Momentary button push. Looks like multiple RF transmissions as Dave pointed out.
W800RF32 Demo Program.

8:15:21 AM - 00 FF 06 F9     X10 Cmd: A 1 On
8:15:21 AM - 00 FF 06 F9     Debounce
8:15:21 AM - 00 FF 06 F9     Debounce
8:15:21 AM - 00 FF 06 F9     Debounce
8:15:21 AM - 00 FF 06 F9     Debounce
8:15:21 AM - 00 FF 06 F9     Debounce
8:15:24 AM - 04 FB 06 F9     X10 Cmd: A 1 Off
8:15:24 AM - 04 FB 06 F9     Debounce
8:15:24 AM - 04 FB 06 F9     Debounce
8:15:24 AM - 04 FB 06 F9     Debounce
8:15:24 AM - 04 FB 06 F9     Debounce
8:15:24 AM - 04 FB 06 F9     Debounce
8:15:27 AM - 11 EE 06 F9     X10 Cmd: A 1 Bright
8:15:27 AM - 11 EE 06 F9     X10 Cmd: A 1 Bright
8:15:27 AM - 11 EE 06 F9     X10 Cmd: A 1 Bright
8:15:27 AM - 11 EE 06 F9     X10 Cmd: A 1 Bright
8:15:27 AM - 11 EE 06 F9     X10 Cmd: A 1 Bright
8:15:27 AM - 11 EE 06 F9     X10 Cmd: A 1 Bright
8:15:29 AM - 19 E6 06 F9     X10 Cmd: A 1 Dim
8:15:29 AM - 19 E6 06 F9     X10 Cmd: A 1 Dim
8:15:30 AM - 19 E6 06 F9     X10 Cmd: A 1 Dim
8:15:30 AM - 19 E6 06 F9     X10 Cmd: A 1 Dim
8:15:30 AM - 19 E6 06 F9     X10 Cmd: A 1 Dim
8:15:30 AM - 19 E6 06 F9     X10 Cmd: A 1 Dim
Title: Re: RF protocol (button up/down)
Post by: dhouston on January 30, 2015, 09:55:19 AM
Looks like 5 RF commands as Dave indicated.
Actually, that looks like six - it takes a really, really quick push/release to get five.
Title: Re: RF protocol (button up/down)
Post by: dhouston on January 30, 2015, 10:29:29 AM
The SDK will send more then 2 signals when pressed depending on how long you hold down the RF button on a palm pad
0 is pressed -1 is released the longer you hold the button down the SDK will show this with a increasing count 1,2,3......
And the SDK appears to be predicting events that will happen 8 hours into the future. ::)
Title: Re: RF protocol (button up/down)
Post by: Brian H on January 30, 2015, 03:56:04 PM
Yes it did look like six messages and I changed my post.
Title: Re: RF protocol (button up/down)
Post by: bkenobi on February 02, 2015, 11:33:21 AM
I figured as much.  I saw nothing in the raw RF code that the CM15A reported nor anything in the USB communication with the PC.  At least there's no hidden stuff I couldn't find going on...just the crazy AHP programmers as usual.   rofl

I appreciate the feedback!
Title: Re: RF protocol (button up/down)
Post by: toasterking on February 02, 2015, 08:19:30 PM
2015/01/29 18:33:50   RecvAction: recvrf, a1, On, 0, 1/30/2015 2:33:50 AM,
2015/01/29 18:33:50   RecvAction: recvrf, a1, On, -1, 1/30/2015 2:33:50 AM,
[...]
There is a parameter with a value of 0 and -1 in the RF commands.  I assume this is a "button pressed" and "button released" value.  Does anyone know how this works in the RF protocol?

The help file that comes with the "full" SDK confirms your suspicion:

Quote
When RF commands are received, RecvAction returns "recvrf" as the action parameter, with additional data beyond the command and address:

"<X10 address>", "<RF command>", "<keydata>", "<timestamp>"

These paramers are:

    X10 Address: A1-P16
    RF Command: string constant, as described in the RF Command Reference.
    Key Data returns three possible pieces of data: 0 (indicates key pressed, or key down); -1 (key released, or key up); 1...n (repeat sequence indicating how long remote key is pressed).
    Timestamp: in UTC.

And the SDK appears to be predicting events that will happen 8 hours into the future. ::)

The help file states that the timestamp is in UTC, so 8 hours into the future would be somewhere around the Pacific time zone in the present.   ;)
Title: Re: RF protocol (button up/down)
Post by: bkenobi on February 02, 2015, 08:59:22 PM
Yup, Pacific timezone here.  I haven't read the SDK guide in ages since I haven't been using it.  Thanks for pointing out the details!   >!
Title: Re: RF protocol (button up/down)
Post by: dhouston on February 02, 2015, 09:03:42 PM
   Key Data returns three possible pieces of data: 0 (indicates key pressed, or key down); -1 (key released, or key up); 1...n (repeat sequence indicating how long remote key is pressed).
There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY to determine when the key is released. There is NOTHING within the RF data transmitted by the remote to indicate this. So the SDK documentation is full of CRAP!
Title: Re: RF protocol (button up/down)
Post by: toasterking on February 02, 2015, 09:25:15 PM
There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY to determine when the key is released. There is NOTHING within the RF data transmitted by the remote to indicate this. So the SDK documentation is full of CRAP!

LOL!  rofl
Tell us how you really feel about the documentation, Dave! ;)

Of course, I believe you since you have far more knowledge than I on the subject, but may it's just a timing thing. Maybe it assumes the key is released when there is a gap where the next command should be received but isn't. And of course, that certainly doesn't prove that the button was released; it's just an assumption.

I'm going to try that at my next opportunity -- hold down a button on a remote and walk out of range -- and see if I get a -1 from the SDK.
Title: Re: RF protocol (button up/down)
Post by: dhouston on February 02, 2015, 09:55:34 PM
Maybe it assumes the key is released when there is a gap where the next command should be received but isn't. And of course, that certainly doesn't prove that the button was released; it's just an assumption.
If you capture the RF data with a receiver, displaying it on an oscilloscope (as I've done many, many, many times) you will see a series of codes each of which looks like the the first illustration at http://davehouston.org/rf.htm (http://davehouston.org/rf.htm) with the exception that there is a 40mS silence between each code. Each code takes ~108mS with some minor variation caused by the LC components in the remote. The 6 codes transmitted by most remotes will take ~648mS on nearly 2/3 of a second. With a rapid press/release, the codes continue well after the release. If the button is held down the sequence will repeat endlessly or until the batteries are depleted. You can find numerous reports here of RF flooding caused by a remote lost between couch cushions, etc. It has been several years since I captured the codes but I probably still have hundreds of oscilloscope screen shots on long retired Windows 3.1 and Windows 95 HDDs. The technique is documented at http://davehouston.org/learn.htm (http://davehouston.org/learn.htm).

Also, the data provided by Brian (from non-X10 hardware/software) shows the 6 RF copies while the AHP & SDK data only shows two.
Title: Re: RF protocol (button up/down)
Post by: bkenobi on February 03, 2015, 11:09:00 AM
I can confirm the same data that Brian saw with my chosen software (HomeGenie).  It shows a series of ~5-6 instances per button press.  I was having issues because the command was being sent by the CM15A multiple times on the PLC and I was trying to figure out what was causing it.  I assumed it was the button down/button up command (which doesn't exist).  In reality, the duplicate PLC instance was either the CM15A or HG not waiting long enough and issuing a second command.  The software developer has tweaked things and I believe it should be resolved now.

That being said, I've always thought AHP was a bit questionable in it's design.  But, now that I'm learning more about some of the other things the developers have done, including with the SDK...  Let's just say I'm glad that there are other options for people to use the hardware.  The software may be questionable, but the hardware (within limits) is very good.
Title: Re: RF protocol (button up/down)
Post by: bkenobi on February 03, 2015, 11:12:48 AM
Oh, since capturing RF was brought up, I wanted to use my SDR to capture RF primarily to determine relative signal strengths.  But, whenever I try to look at 310MHz and transmit a command, I don't see anything.  Has anyone used SDRSharp or some other code to capture RF?  I don't need to decode, just see the command to determine relative magnitudes.

sdrsharp.com
http://www.rtl-sdr.com/rtl-sdr-quick-start-guide/

For reference, I bought a cheapo USB dongle for ~$6 off ebay to play with.  It works great with the software.  I just don't know how to use it for this purpose.   rofl
Title: Re: RF protocol (button up/down)
Post by: dhouston on February 03, 2015, 12:30:56 PM
In reality, the duplicate PLC instance was either the CM15A or HG not waiting long enough and issuing a second command.
I would posit that one or both are reacting to the first code received and relaying that via PLC. They are then deaf to RF for the time it takes for PLC but probably hear the last (i.e. 6th) RF copy and relay it via PLC. However, if one or both are polite transceivers, one may be backing off and then transmitting PLC once the powerline is free. It's complicated.
The software may be questionable, but the hardware (within limits) is very good.
Agreed. It's a shame they didn't publish the CM15A/CM19A communication protocols as they had with the CM11A. There are many developers who could have provided better software had they done so.

Finally, if you quickly hit/release a key a la a chicken pecking, you will probably see only five copies.
Title: Re: RF protocol (button up/down)
Post by: dhouston on February 03, 2015, 12:38:45 PM
...I wanted to use my SDR to capture RF primarily to determine relative signal strengths.
I cannot help with the SDR but there's a much simpler way to reach your goal. Look at http://www.cdadapter.com/srtune.htm (http://www.cdadapter.com/srtune.htm). I think the technique used was based on one of my web articles but this page is easier to grasp/follow than my explanation at http://davehouston.org/tuning.htm (http://davehouston.org/tuning.htm). Using the meter after tuning a super-regenerative receiver for maximum will then let you compare signals from multiple sources (one at a time).

While this will not give you absolute values, it will give you a reliable (and repeatable) comparison of relative signal strengths. I've used it for my comparisons of various receiving antennas as well as for before/after X10 RF Feng Shui measurements http://davehouston.org/X10_feng_shui.htm (http://davehouston.org/X10_feng_shui.htm).
Title: Re: RF protocol (button up/down)
Post by: bkenobi on February 03, 2015, 12:43:00 PM
I'll check the link out.  I think I have things sorted out now that I added full wavelength passive antennas.  I still want to do the test out of curiosity, but it's not as critical since things work even in the rain.
Title: Re: RF protocol (button up/down)
Post by: toasterking on February 03, 2015, 02:47:37 PM
There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY to determine when the key is released. There is NOTHING within the RF data transmitted by the remote to indicate this. So the SDK documentation is full of CRAP!

Just to satisfy my curiosity, I held down the second device ON key on an SS13A (as holding the first would have entered programming mode) and, still holding the key, yanked the battery.  The commands were received with a CM19A.  Sure enough, the last event from the SDK had -1 (the "button up" event) as the keydata parameter.  So there, I confirmed what you already knew:  The key up event is sent when there is a long enough gap between received RF events and doesn't confirm that the key was actually released at all.
Title: Re: RF protocol (button up/down)
Post by: dhouston on February 03, 2015, 03:01:46 PM
I knew all of this because about 14 years ago, I designed a Home Automation device that interfaced with X10 and other devices. I designed a PCB, wrote firmware and Windows software. I had a couple hundred bare circuit boards made and gave them to my 12 year old grandson to sell for a few bucks each. Users had to add all the through-hole components. It included X10 RF and it logged RF codes as well as the RSSI (Received Signal Strength Indicator) for the RF signal. I provided support via a web page, user forum, comp.home.automation and email.

It was a bit ahead of its time as it used IFTTT long before IFTTT was a thing.

I published the source code and other people introduced similar devices although they ignored FCC rules and provided fully assembled devices.

My grandson sold about a hundred PCBs before he discovered girls, at which point he lost interest.

You can see the user manual at http://davehouston.org/manual.pdf (http://davehouston.org/manual.pdf). The numbers within brackets in the Output Window (p30) are the relative amplitudes of the received RF signals.
Title: Re: RF protocol (button up/down)
Post by: bkenobi on February 06, 2015, 01:16:14 PM
Dave

I'm looking at your schematics for the RF receiver and it looks like you use 315MHz ASK receivers with 8 pins.  I'm looking to get a few 315MHz and 433MHz modules for now and future use (or just to sit in my box of parts  rofl).

Do you recommend that 8 pin version over the 4 or 6 pin variant?  It looks like the 8 pin version has 3 pins used for ground and 2 for power.  The 4 pin versions don't appear to have an antenna hookup.  Any opinions?  Maybe something I should specifically look for or look to avoid?  Just looking at the first link (RM1SG at RF Remotetech) I'm not even seeing the duel 4-pin version anymore.
Title: Re: RF protocol (button up/down)
Post by: dhouston on February 06, 2015, 01:55:33 PM
Most of the RF work I did was 12-15 years back and I bought a couple hundred of the 8-pin version from the manufacturer (Wenshing) for the BX24-AHT Transmogrifier. More recently, I've used and recommended the RM1SG.

The advantage of the 8-pin version is that one of the pins is at the data slicer input whereas you have to solder a lead onto the RM1SG. There are antenna solderpads on the RM1SG but no pins.

While some of the links are out of date, you can find low volume suppliers at http://davehouston.org/modules.htm (http://davehouston.org/modules.htm).
Title: Re: RF protocol (button up/down)
Post by: bkenobi on February 06, 2015, 02:14:16 PM
I went through each of those vendors and only a couple still seem to work and have the same modules.  Of those, there was only 1 or 2 that seemed to allow adding the item to the cart and it appeared shipping was prohibitively expensive for very small orders (~$22 for shipping).  I've located a few on ebay that look like a good fit, but so far all appear to be from overseas.

This is a 433MHz version:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Super-heterodyne-ASK-OOK-RF-Wireless-Receiver-Module-433MHZ-112dBm-/181633631837?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a4a35465d

And a 315MHz version:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2PCS-RF-wireless-super-heterodyne-3400M-receiver-module-OOK-ASK-315MHz-433-92MHz-/261559271902?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3ce625c1de

The second link is confusing though as it is for 2 modules but they don't say if they both work for 315 and 433 or if it's one of each.

Sparkfun does sell the 315MHz version:
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10533

And the 433MHz:
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10532

...but they are both back ordered.  Should be restocked within a week or so, so I may just go that route.


Sourcing modules that are 4-6 pins is much easier as I said.  I may even be able to locate them domestically.
Title: Re: RF protocol (button up/down)
Post by: dhouston on February 06, 2015, 03:44:00 PM
You need to avoid superheterodyne - they are not tunable (in this type of low cost receiver) and usually have no RSSI output.

Sparkfun looks like your best option and theirs even labels the RSSI output which is what you want for tuning and measurement (with the peak detector circuit cited earlier).

In the past you could find the RM1SG on Ebay but I think you now have to email the supplier. Last I checked they had reasonable pricing/shipping and accepted Paypal. http://www.rfremotech.com/ReceiverModules.html (http://www.rfremotech.com/ReceiverModules.html) There's a MailTo link at the bottom of the page.
Title: Re: RF protocol (button up/down)
Post by: bkenobi on February 06, 2015, 04:33:04 PM
I'm not anywhere close to a novice with RF equipment.  I thought I was supposed to be looking for super-heterodyne when it should have been super-regenerative.  I appreciate the feedback.

Come to think of it, I think you actually sent me one or two RM1SG modules a couple years ago when I was working on improving my CM15A performance.  I know I didn't end up using it there (worse performance) so it should still be in my box of parts.  That won't help with 433MHz, but it gets me one module for playing with.
Title: Re: RF protocol (button up/down)
Post by: dhouston on February 06, 2015, 07:13:06 PM
You might even try Amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_st_price-asc-rank?keywords=315+mhz&qid=1423267832&rh=n%3A172282%2Ck%3A315+mhz&sort=price-asc-rank (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_st_price-asc-rank?keywords=315+mhz&qid=1423267832&rh=n%3A172282%2Ck%3A315+mhz&sort=price-asc-rank)
Title: Re: RF protocol (button up/down)
Post by: bkenobi on February 06, 2015, 09:19:56 PM
I just checked my stock pile and found that I have 2 different types of receivers.  I have one module that I believe you provided (RX310SH-WB and MBXr10TX) that was used for testing on my CM15A.  I also have 4 modules with the part number CZS-3 and are marked with 315MHz (available in 433MHz too apparently).  They match this product:

http://www.yishi.net.cn/rf/ProductShow.asp?ID=195

Looks like these will be a good choice for 315MHz.  I'll find something similar for 433MHz.  I'm guessing these will match much of what's available on ebay and marked with Arduino friendly.  I think I got these from China so they were cheap but took a month to arrive.
Title: Re: RF protocol (button up/down)
Post by: dhouston on February 07, 2015, 09:22:07 AM
I just checked my stock pile and found that I have 2 different types of receivers.  I have one module that I believe you provided (RX310SH-WB and MBXr10TX) that was used for testing on my CM15A.  
No - the RX310SH-WB is my own design and the SH denotes it is a superheterodyne receiver. You cannot tune it nor is there an RSSI output. It's a wideband design which should work well with X10's LC controlled transmitters. http://davehouston.org/RX310SH-WB.htm (http://davehouston.org/RX310SH-WB.htm)
I also have 4 modules with the part number CZS-3 and are marked with 315MHz (available in 433MHz too apparently).  They match this product:
http://www.yishi.net.cn/rf/ProductShow.asp?ID=195
That is identical to the RM1SG. I've added some text to their picture - to show the antenna solder pads and show where to solder a lead for connecting to a peak detector circuit (see tuning/measurement link cited earlier).
(http://davehouston.org/RM1SG.png)
The YiShi web page is informative. It states the bandwidth as +/-10MHz which is very wide indeed and butresses my argument that its bandwidth is why it works well with poorly tuned X10 transmitters. It also implies that you can tune it between 360MHz & 440MHz so you may not need to buy a 433MHz version.
Title: Re: RF protocol (button up/down)
Post by: bkenobi on February 07, 2015, 11:33:32 AM
I saw that the documentation indicated a quite wide tuning band, but I'm not sure if I could get it tuned as needed.  Also, I don't have a 433mhz transmitter that I can continuously transmit with.  I found a similar receiver with a transmitter in 433mhz for under $5 shipped from the US, so I picked it up.  I figure with the transmitter, I should be able to tune any of my other 315MHz modules should I need more.

Btw, how long should a 433mhz 1/2 wave antenna be?
Title: Re: RF protocol (button up/down)
Post by: dhouston on February 07, 2015, 12:15:05 PM
At 433.92MHz, 1/2 wavelength is about 12-13 inches.
Title: Re: RF protocol (button up/down)
Post by: bkenobi on February 07, 2015, 12:21:18 PM
I just looked at the module and found that my test leads are all too big to clip onto the SMD leg.  I'm thinking of heading down to the biggest only electronic store in the area to find some as well as the caps and resistors for the test circuit.
Title: Re: RF protocol (button up/down)
Post by: bkenobi on February 08, 2015, 12:17:34 PM
I just found an interesting program for SDR dongles.  It looks like I may be able to use my radio receiver on the Raspi to see 310MHz and 433MHz and decode on the fly.  I don't know that I can get signal strength yet, but it's something that seems possible.
https://github.com/merbanan/rtl_433

I'm thinking that if I can get the signal strength out, then I should be able to modify the code to work on 310MHz.  Would be interesting if I could receive both frequencies at the same time.  If so, I could use this radio to watch for various modules at the same time without installing dedicated receivers.  One step at a time though...
Title: Re: RF protocol (button up/down)
Post by: bkenobi on February 13, 2015, 01:52:15 PM
I just received the last package of find components that I think I need to do some of this range testing.  I have super-regenerative and super-heterodyne modules in 315MHz that can be tuned down to 310 with a screw.  I didn't want to solder to the spots on those receivers due to size and the components being surface mount and potentially wanting to tune multiple modules, so I purchased some pico sized grabbers from Sparkfun that grab the leg of the SOIC really nicely.  The transmitters will just be the X10 modules.  It looks like I'll be able to use my DC power supply to power the module and since I'm measuring the signal at the test point, I don't need to connect the data pin to anything, right?  I'm planning on tuning some 433MHz modules too, so this will be interesting.
Title: Re: RF protocol (button up/down)
Post by: dhouston on February 13, 2015, 02:46:26 PM
+5V, GND & the data slicer input (connected to the peak detector circuit referenced earlier) are all you need.

Do you have a link to the Sparkfun pico sized grabbers? They might come in handy.
Title: Re: RF protocol (button up/down)
Post by: bkenobi on February 13, 2015, 04:39:52 PM
The grabbers aren't actually pico sized (not sure what that means really).  I bought some EZ-Hooks a while back that are pretty small and very nice for the price.  But, they don't work with small components (~0.1" minimum).  I bought them at Fry's and their web site is terrible to find anything on or else I'd link to them.  They are basically a 5 pack of grabber to grabber test leads and look similar to these:

http://www.vetco.net/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=11877

The ones I just ordered were much smaller and definitely can hook onto the legs of the SOIC on the receiver board.  But, the insulation is a little wide so I couldn't grab 2 legs next to each other.  For the price, they seem very good though.

https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9741

FWIW, I contacted Digikey and they indicated that either a P25 or XPM series would be great for grabbing SOIC but the price for the connector alone ($2.50-10.00ea + S&H) was prohibitive for my needs (very low need).  The Sparkfun hooks were ~$7 shipped for 5 and I ordered other stuff too.


EDIT:  Oh, and the other thing about the very small grabbers is that they can cost WAY more.  I was just looking at a set on Digikey that were really cool!  Then I saw that the kit of ~10 hooks cost $500.   B:(
Title: Re: RF protocol (button up/down)
Post by: bkenobi on February 15, 2015, 11:53:26 PM
This is a bit astray from X10, but it's related to this thread...sorta.   :'

I've got a question about the type of receiver I ordered.  I thought it was a super-heterodyne, but since it doesn't work and it doesn't match the description on the code page that I'm working with, I'm starting to think it's actually super-regenerative.  I don't really understand the difference, but the high level description indicates I may have the wrong type.

Quote
A superheterodyne board:

    is cheap
    has one decently-sized chip on board (the RX3400-LF is 24-pin SSOP), which may be covered in a metal shield
    has a crystal (typically 6.773 MHz for 433.92 MHz RX frequency)
    has no obvious coils or tuning chokes

A super-regenerative board:

    is very cheap
    typically only has one small chip (like an 8-pin LM358 op-amp)
    has no crystal
    has a coil and a tuning choke
    doesn't work for this application.

Looking at the board I got from Sparkfun, it really sounds like it might be super-regenerative based on the list above.

https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10532

I guess I assumed that all 8 pin boards were super-regenerative.  But, there is crystal and there is a tuning choke.  I can get a different one, but I need to know what I should be looking for.  Any help would be awesome!  Oh, for reference, this is the code I'm trying to work with:

https://github.com/scruss/Powermon433
Title: Re: RF protocol (button up/down)
Post by: dhouston on February 16, 2015, 06:48:46 AM
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9741
Before your reply, I had found and ordered these.
Title: Re: RF protocol (button up/down)
Post by: dhouston on February 16, 2015, 07:46:50 AM
Looking at the board I got from Sparkfun, it really sounds like it might be super-regenerative based on the list above.

https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10532
Those are WenShing's super-regenerative receivers that I used 12+ years ago. I'm not sure what you are trying to do but I doubt these will tune to 310MHz whereas the Yishi CZS-3 (identical to RM1SG) are purported to be tunable over a very wide range.

For X10, you need something that will tune to 310MHz like the CZS-3 or RM1SG or the 315MHz version of the WenShing receiver from Sparkfun. https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10533  (https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10533)
The advantage of these WenShing super-regeneratives is that the linear output (pin 3) is the data-slicer input that requires adding a lead with the CZS-3 or RM1SG.

I do not know exactly what you are doing with 433.92MHz but doubt you need a tunable receiver as most 433.92MHz devices are fairly stable so a non-tunable crystal controlled super-heterodyne receiver is preferred. Europe uses 433.92MHz for X10 and nearly everything else in this class. They have far more stringent regulations which necessitate crystal controlled super-heterodyne designs. And, while super-heterodyne can be made tunable it almost never is for these low cost fixed frequency applications.

This is not the place to delve into the details of super-regenerative vs. super-heterodyne. You can explore this via Wikipedia.  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regenerative_circuit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regenerative_circuit)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superheterodyne_receiver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superheterodyne_receiver)

For your power monitoring application, you will need a stable 433.92MHZ super-heterodyne receiver like...
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/retired/8950 (https://www.sparkfun.com/products/retired/8950)
http://www.canakit.com/rf-link-4800bps-receiver-434mhz-wrl-08950.html (http://www.canakit.com/rf-link-4800bps-receiver-434mhz-wrl-08950.html)
Title: Re: RF protocol (button up/down)
Post by: bkenobi on February 16, 2015, 10:51:47 AM
Like I said, my goal here is X10 (310MHz receiver for understanding signals and their strength) as well as non-X10 automation (receiving 433MHz signals from a power monitor, weather station, other).  I asked the module question here primarily bescause you are the most knowledgeable person I know when it comes to RF.  Heck, I've seen your content linked all over the place!  I really appreciate you taking the time to give guidance even when it's not 100% related to this forum topic.
Title: Re: RF protocol (button up/down)
Post by: dhouston on February 16, 2015, 01:09:43 PM
To reiterate (aka  >*<)...

For X10 you MUST be able to tune to 310MHz and for measuring signal strength you need access to the data-slicer input. Both require a super-regenerative RF receiver. The easiest way is to use a receiver which has a linear (aka analog) output such as...
 https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10533 (https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10533)
although you can attach a lead to the RM1SG/CZS-3 to accomplish the same thing.

For 433.92MHz, you  can use... 
 https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10532 (https://www.sparkfun.com/products/10532)
if you want to measure signal strength or, again, can add a lead to the 433.92MHz versions of RM1SG/CZS-3. If you do not need to measure signal strength, a super-heterodyne receiver will generate less noise and be more stable, frequency wise.