X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: nabril15 on March 09, 2015, 08:47:38 PM
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Hello
I have 2 LED lights (A and B) controlled by 2 separate XPS3 switches, and I am using an MT13a controller to control all of our X10. I also use a TM51 remote receiver and a CR12a remote.
Both lights are supposed to come on at sunset, and one of them comes off at sunrise. What normally happens every day is:
Sunset - Light A comes on with the command, and I have to force light B on with the remote. AT 10:45 pm, B comes off from the command sent from the MT13a, which is fine.
Sunrise - An off command is sent from the controller to light A, but the light doesnt come off. I have to force it off with the remote.
I've been using X10 for some time, so I am aware of the inconsistencies that can be caused by the cabling. I have plugged my MT13 controller into different outlets throughout the house, but the behavior continues. Its obvious that my controller works fine since it sends out the signals, and it's obvious that my switches are fine because they receive the signals. I've noticed that other x10 switches throughout the house won't receive the signal from the MT13, but they do receive the signal from the remote and TM51. Why is that?
What else can I try? Do I need a coupler or a phaser or both?
THank you
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I assume you mean TM751 which puts out a PLC signal approximately twice the amplitude of the PLC signal from the MT13A. That probably explains why some switches respond to the TM751 but not the MT13A. The original MT522 (and PHT02) MiniTimer output 10Vpp but everything introduced after the CM11A only output ~5Vpp. See http://davehouston.org/x10-sig.htm (http://davehouston.org/x10-sig.htm).
As for the LED lights, one possibility is that light A has developed a noisy power supply. The noise interferes with valid PLC signals. Can you control light B when light A is off?
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Thank you Dave.
You're right, it's a tm751.
With light A off, I can only control light B from the remote and not the mini controller.
I have verified that all of my x10 devices are on the same phase.
Should I look for an mt522 controller (probably impossible to find)? Or will a signal amplifier help?
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I believe the MT522 was discontinued several years ago when the MT13 was introduced.
The fact that you can turn light A on but not off with the MT13 is a strong indication that noise from light A's switching power supply is the culprit. With A off, there is no noise but with A on, there is noise, which the stronger TM751 signal can overcome. Try swapping A & B or, if that's not practical, temporarily replace A with an incandescent.
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I will replace bulb A with something else and continue to test. Can I do anything to strengthen the weak signal of the mt13? Or will eliminating the potential noise-maker bulb A, solve my other issues where only the remote turns things on or off.
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You may want to look at Jeff's Troubleshooting Tutorials. I mentioned in your post over at the UDI Forums.
http://jvde.us/x10_troubleshooting.htm
If you do have all the x10 devices on one phase. You may have signal suckers or noise makers.
If not all on the same phase. Then an X10 coupler or coupler/repeater maybe needed.
If you have any electronics also on the same phase. Like Computers,TVs, Surge Suppressors with noise filters, UPS Units, etc. Try unplugging them and see if anything changes.
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I will replace bulb A with something else and continue to test. Can I do anything to strengthen the weak signal of the mt13? Or will eliminating the potential noise-maker bulb A, solve my other issues where only the remote turns things on or off.
Your post appears to indicate that your X10 problems are relatively recent. If so, it's likely a noisy LED power supply is causing your current problems. Replacing it with a noise-free bulb should fix things.
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ok, so I continue with my quest, but I think I isolated my issues to bulb A. I replaced it with a CFL, and this morning all lights came off as they were supposed to. However, last night at 7pm, bulb A came on (as "normal'') but bulb B didn't. So, I will continue troubleshooting.
I have another light controlled by an xps3 that resides in my outside main panel. My house has 2 panels: the exterior main panel which houses the exterior stuff (pool, irrigation pump), and my interior panel which houses the interior circuits. I want to control a roof flood light which is attached to the exterior panel from my MT13a, however, it just won't happen; with the remote, it works fine.
Can I add some device or filter or amplifier or something that will help me get that weak signal from the MT13a to get across to the exterior panel? And at the same time, it would boost the signal through the interior circuits ??
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Have you tried using the MT13A in the outlet the TM751 is normally in? To see if that location can address the problem switch.
There are coupler/repeaters.
Like the X10Pro XPCR, ACT CR234 and the Cadillac of devices JV Digital Engineering XTB-IIR Coupler/Repeater or XTBR booster
http://jvde.us/xtb_index.htm
I have an XTB-IIR and the lowest X10 signal I have is 1.35 volts on the power line measured by their XTBM test meter.
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Have you tried using the MT13A in the outlet the TM751 is normally in? To see if that location can address the problem switch.
BRIAN -Yes, I have done that, but not with the non-offending LED bulb I removed last night. I will experiment more today with other bulbs (CFL and incandescent). Thank you for the information on the repeaters.
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nabril15,
If your seriously planning on expanding your use of X10 automation rather than abandoning it for something else; then, in my humble opinion, you might as well jump in with the JV Digital Engineering XTB-IIR Coupler/Repeater. I personally consider the others on Brian's list as "half-measures". They might work....but they might not.
Brian calls the XTB-IIR a Cadillac...but I'd venture to say its kinda more like a jet fighter. You will pretty much eliminate the guess work with the real deal. I'm not suggesting you couldn't find some ultra flaky electrical device that could interfere with the incredibly strong signal it generates on each command - but I personally haven't found one.
I bought mine a little over a year ago. It made all my X10 devices solid and incredibly reliable (even a couple that I chucked in a box assuming they were faulty) - which has allowed me to use my X10 system for functions that are a bit more demanding, with no concern for reliability. I guess it all depends on where you wanna go.
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thank you Joe
Where can I see how the XTB-IIR is installed (not assembled)? Does it plug in? Or does it go in the electrical panel?
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Where can I see how the XTB-IIR is installed (not assembled)? Does it plug in? Or does it go in the electrical panel?
The XTB-IIR has an internal terminal block for connections. You can see that here:
http://jvde.us/xtb/XTB-IIR_case_800.jpg
You can wire a 240V plug to that terminal block, or connect it directly to a 240V breaker in the panel.
Jeff
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thanks Jeff
Pardon the ignorance. So I (the electrician) would have to wire that box to my breaker panel, and I could plug something into it if I wanted to?
Does it matter which panel I connect it to? I have 2 - an exterior and interior (see previous posts).
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thanks Jeff
Pardon the ignorance. So I (the electrician) would have to wire that box to my breaker panel, and I could plug something into it if I wanted to?
Does it matter which panel I connect it to? I have 2 - an exterior and interior (see previous posts).
You can only plug an X10 transmitter into the X10 Boost Input receptacle. It is isolated from the powerline by a low-pass filter fused a 1/2A.
Whichever panel feeds most of your X10 devices is where any repeater (including the XTB-IIR) should be installed to keep signal loss to a minimum.
Jeff
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The XTB-IIR has an internal terminal block for connections. You can see that here:
http://jvde.us/xtb/XTB-IIR_case_800.jpg
Jeff,
What's the function of the modular jack, J3?
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What's the function of the modular jack, J3?
TW523 emulation. It actually does quite a bit more than the TW523 because it can both send and receive extended commands. And it has a mode option that provides real-time full half-cycle output for a controller that can actually do its own collision avoidance. I find that mode handy when capturing commands on a digital storage scope.
Jeff
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TW523 emulation. It actually does quite a bit more than the TW523 because it can both send and receive extended commands. And it has a mode option that provides real-time full half-cycle output for a controller that can actually do its own collision avoidance. I find that mode handy when capturing commands on a digital storage scope.
Do you mean those controllers that touted collision avoidance as a feature despite relying on a TW523?
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Do you mean those controllers that touted collision avoidance as a feature despite relying on a TW523?
No, I'm thinking about a new controller possibly based on the Arduino or Raspberry Pi. There the user should be able to check each bit as it comes in. If a "1" comes in when a "0" is being sent, then there was a collision.
Even at that, it is still possible for two transmitters to begin sending the start pattern simultaneously, corrupting one or possibly both transmissions. But it is certainly better than using the TW523, whose output lags real-time by half the X10 doublet.
Jeff
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I don't want to hijack the OP's thread but there were a few top-shelf controllers that touted collision avoidance even though they only saw the collisions after the TW523's delay in reporting the powerline activity. I don't recall whether the Ocelot was one of them. But, it occurs to me that they might be able to take advantage of your unit's real-time reporting to actually avoid collisions.
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Jeff,
What's the function of the modular jack, J3
I use that port to plug in my WGL/V572 RF Whole House Transceiver. I bought that transceiver years earlier (originally used a TW523 which failed after a few years of use). The WGL transceiver gives me tremendous wireless remote coverage. Covers whole house plus "normal sized" yard. Actually went across the street and turned on my XMAS lights with a palmpad while installing/testing them this year. Mighty good use of that port!
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What's the function of the modular jack, J3?
TW523 emulation. It actually does quite a bit more than the TW523 because it can both send and receive extended commands. And it has a mode option that provides real-time full half-cycle output for a controller that can actually do its own collision avoidance. I find that mode handy when capturing commands on a digital storage scope.
Jeff
I was using that jack to send X10 signals from an Arduino (although I've since retired that function of the Arduino - as I no longer need it).
I would be interested in a RaspberryPi-based control system - once that would directly connect via that jack (without the need for a CM15A controller), if anyone is working on something like that.
--Noam
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I revisit the thread because the issues continue. It's been a while since my first post, so at this point I've forgotten a bit of the troubleshooting I've done.
Here's where I stand:
I purchased an XTBR booster/repeater and I plugged it in to an outlet that is located a foot below my electrical panel; so I assume that is the closest outlet. I plugged in my MT13a mini controller to that same outlet.
I continue to have on/off issues with one of my outdoor lights (as described in the OP). Both of them have the same Sylvannia LED bulb, but only one comes on at 7:45pm as set in the mini controller. At 7am, that same light does not come off.
I replaced the actual bulb I mentioned in the OP with another one of the same brand prior to buying the XTBR. Should I switch those 2 bulbs to see if the issue is the bulb itself?
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The instructions with the XTBR say:
Since the XTBR only drives the phase it is plugged into, a good passive coupler is still required to propagate its strong signal to the opposite phase. A coupler may also be necessary to receive signals from other transmitters on the opposite phase.
Its just a guess, but I would say the outlet below your panel must be on the opposite phase to the misbehaving bulb.. Move the XTBR & controller around to other outlets and see if the problem suddenly goes away. If it does, you must not have (and will need) a phase coupler for that panel. If you have a phase coupler then ignore this post and look for something else (like noise or devices absorbing signal on that particular line).
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From your original post:
Light A turns on at dusk from the timer, but needs a manual command to turn off in the morning.
Light B needs a manual command to turn on, but turns off at 10:45 PM from the timer.
It seems kind of strange that one only responded to the ON command and the other only to the OFF command.
Your last post indicates that one light is now behaving properly, but you are still having trouble with the second light. And it is now ignoring both ON and OFF commands from your timer.
Since you opted for the XTBR rather than the XTB-IIR (which drives both phases) you still need a good phase coupler to propagate its signal over to the opposite phase. The X10 XPCP is a good one. That should insure all circuits in your home receive strong signal levels.
It is possible the LED light is generating noise when on. Or there is something else on its circuit generating noise when the light is supposed to switch. A test would be to swap in an incandescent bulb to see if that solves the problem. If so, then you probably have a noise problem to deal with.
Since the XTBR is only driving one phase, you could check your panel to see if the misbehaving light is on the opposite phase. If so, you could try plugging the XTBR into another outlet on that phase near the panel. If that solves the problem, it confirms the need for a phase coupler. Or you could swap circuits around so both lights are on the same phase driven by the XTBR.
There is one more thing to check. Since these are relay switches, you have to use the correct commands for those switches. They will not respond to the extended code light on command intended for dimmer switches.
Jeff
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The instructions with the XTBR say:
Since the XTBR only drives the phase it is plugged into, a good passive coupler is still required to propagate its strong signal to the opposite phase. A coupler may also be necessary to receive signals from other transmitters on the opposite phase.
Its just a guess, but I would say the outlet below your panel must be on the opposite phase to the misbehaving bulb.. Move the XTBR & controller around to other outlets and see if the problem suddenly goes away. If it does, you must not have (and will need) a phase coupler for that panel. If you have a phase coupler then ignore this post and look for something else (like noise or devices absorbing signal on that particular line).
Joe/Jeff -- Thank you. That outlet is on the same phase as the lights and all of my x10 stuff at this time. All of my x10 stuff is on the same phase (side of the panel).
The behavior has changed from what I originally posted.
Light A does not turn on at dusk, and needs a manual command to turn off.
Light B turns on and off from the controller as programmed.
Bulbs a and b are the same Sylvannia LED bulb. I will try with an incandescent bulb tonight on light A.
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Joe--that outlet is on the same phase as the lights and all of my x10 stuff at this time.
OK, if you know for sure that everything is on the same phase as driven by the XTBR, then you should check for noise on the circuit that is misbehaving.
Jeff
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The behavior has changed from what I originally posted.
Light A does not turn on at dusk, and needs a manual command to turn off.
Light B turns on and off from the controller as programmed.
So light B is now working fine, but light A ignores both commands. Switching to an incandescent would only effect the OFF command if the LED bulb was generating noise when on. While that is still possible, something must be interfering with the ON command. Again, verify that you are sending the correct command for that switch. It cannot be defined as a dimmer switch in ActiveHome Pro because that will send the wrong ON command.
If that is OK, then look for any potential noise generator on the same circuit as that switch. It could be another LED or CFL light, or possibly a small modular "wall-wart" power supply.
Jeff
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I was using that jack to send X10 signals from an Arduino (although I've since retired that function of the Arduino - as I no longer need it).
I have designs for shields that fit the ZA-328 (Arduino UNO R3 born anew as a ZBasic device) and ZA-2560 (Arduino mega2560 R3 born anew as a ZBasic device). Both do true collision avoidance and can work with the TW523, PSCO5, XM10, Jeff's devices that emulate the TW523 and PowerLine Communications Interfaces of my own design (which isolate the controllers from the powerline).
They support low-cost WiFi and Bluetooth modules, have battery-backed RTCs and 128KB EEPROMs for timers/macros.
I also have a daughterboard which replaces the Cypress microcontroller in the CM15A. The daughterboard includes a WiFi module, battery-backed RTC and support for 128KB EEPROMs (on the main CM15A PCB).
I hope to have these available by July. All can be reprogrammed with the free version of ZBasic. Or one can reinstall the Arduino bootloaders (or just use Arduinos) if more comfortable in that programming environment.
- http://davehouston.org/ultimate-X10.htm
- http://davehouston.org/cm15a2z.htm
I would be interested in a RaspberryPi-based control system - once that would directly connect via that jack (without the need for a CM15A controller), if anyone is working on something like that.
I do not have anything specific to the Pi but the latest version is supposed to be able to run a reduced version of Windows 10. Depending on what reduced means I may be able to provide this. I plan to use GLBasic to create interfaces/apps for Windows, Linux, OSX, iOS, Android, etc. and it might be fairly simple to make a version for the new Pi.
Code for all the above will be open sores so others can modify them anyway they desire.
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Again, verify that you are sending the correct command for that switch. It cannot be defined as a dimmer switch in ActiveHome Pro because that will send the wrong ON command.
Continued thanks Jeff. The light switches on the wall are XPS3's.
How do I verify that I'm sending the correct command for the switch? Do I have to get the signal analyzer? Light B comes on fine, so I must be sending the right signal, right?
I will look at everything in the offending circuit of light A, disconnect/remove it, and press the on/off button for that code (2) on the MT13. Is that a valid testing procedure? Is my pressing of the on/off button on the MT13 the equivalent of the MT13a sending the commands on its own at the specified time?
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Again, verify that you are sending the correct command for that switch. It cannot be defined as a dimmer switch in ActiveHome Pro because that will send the wrong ON command.
Continued thanks Jeff. The light switches on the wall are XPS3's.
How do I verify that I'm sending the correct command for the switch? Do I have to get the signal analyzer? Light B comes on fine, so I must be sending the right signal, right?
Yes, I had read your earlier post that they are XPS3's, which are relay switches. You might have defined them differently when you set up the program. Since the B switch works fine, it must be defined correctly. Just make sure the same is true for the A switch.
Jeff
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Both do true collision avoidance and can work with the TW523, PSCO5, XM10, Jeff's devices that emulate the TW523 and PowerLine Communications Interfaces of my own design (which isolate the controllers from the powerline).
Actually, the X10 TW523/PSC05, XTB-523, and XTB-IIR all have opto-isolated digital ports, and also isolate the controllers from the powerline.
I'd be happy to send you an XTB-523 for your testing if you would like one. (The schematic is on-line now too.)
Jeff
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Jeff, I edited my previous post with an additional question. Kindly glance at it please.
I'm sorry to keep asking and delving, but I continue to learn.
You mentioned that I must have defined the switch for light B correctly and to verify A. How would I have done that? I bought the switches from an ebay store, unpacked it, installed it, gave it code 3, and both switches worked fine for a year or 2. Where do I even have the option to define anything?
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I went back through your posts again and saw you are just using the X10 timer, and not a timer in ActiveHome Pro. Sorry for confusing you with someone else.
Your timer should be sending the correct ON/OFF commands. So you must have a noise problem on that circuit. Think about anything that was added or changed in your electrical system around the time the switches began to misbehave.
Jeff
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Did you verify you are really on one phase?
Most breaker boxes do not have all of one phase on a side. Each phase alternates between breakers. So on most breaker boxes every other breaker is on the opposite phase. For both sides of the breaker box.
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Each phase alternates between breakers
Good catch Brian....I was thinking maybe he had some weird breaker boxes (he said he has two) with his initial statement of "all on one side".
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Did you verify you are really on one phase?
Most breaker boxes do not have all of one phase on a side. Each phase alternates between breakers. So on most breaker boxes every other breaker is on the opposite phase. For both sides of the breaker box.
Shoot. I didnt know this Brian. I assumed that the left column off breakers were on 1 phase, and the right side on the other. How do I identify which is which? I'll search online.
EDIT -- I feel like such an idiot. I am so sorry.
I looked online, and sure enough confirmed what Brian and Jeff stated, breakers alternate between phases from side to side; my assumption was completely wrong of the phases being on each side. I will have to look at my panel and map out the circuits again.
Now the trick is to be able to identify if the 2 breakers in the top row are phase 1 or 2 (left or right)
1000 apologies.
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Hopefully, that is all it is.
BTW, even though phases alternate down each side, they can be different side-to-side.
Our old panel back east:
A A
B B
A A
.....
At our present home (Square D):
A B
B A
A B
.....
That one got me.
Jeff
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If you didn't have alternating phase connections next to each other. You could not have any 220 volt circuits with a tandem breaker.
You may find a layout on the inside cover of the breaker box.
I have an old house with a Federal Pacific breaker box.
Unique layout.
A A
A A
A A
B B
B B
B B
....
Yes only six positions out of twenty four. Where a tandem 220 breaker will have 220 on them.
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A phase coupler is really the best solution (to cover your whole house so you can add X10 devices as you please; regardless of the phase). There are some plug-in ones available that plug into your stove or dryer outlets (those appliances are 220v which uses both phases) as follows:
http://www.smarthome.com/simply-automated-zpci-p30a-30-amp-nema-10-30-universal-inverting-phase-coupler-booster.html
Depending on the type of plug your electric dryer or oven use. Not sure how good they are, but with Jeff's XTB product boosting your signal, it "should" work. Best way to tell is to run your dryer or oven, and see if the problem miraculously goes away.
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Jeff, you are probably correct, and I may invest in an xpcp which is a bit cheaper. I opened up my GE panel from 1980, and the label inside is quite faded. But I think I can make sense of the drawing attached. The paddles for the breakers alternate from left to right, starting from the top left. Does anyone agree?
EDIT... Looking again, I think I have
aa
Bb
Aa
Bb
**** I asked in an electrical forum, and I was told that Ihave a single phase with 2 hot legs. ***
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**** I asked in an electrical forum, and I was told that I have a single phase with 2 hot legs. ***
When comparing single-phase and 3-phase systems, most North America homes have a 120V/240V split-phase distribution system. Power is normally transmitted by the utility company over a 3-phase system, but the step down transformer that provides power to most homes is connected across just one of the three phases. Neutral is connected to the center tap of that transformer's 240V secondary. Using that as a reference, the two "legs" provide power 180 degrees out of phase with each other, which is probably why we normally refer to them as opposite phases.
In any case, if you have X10 devices on both "legs" or phases, you need a coupler to propagate the 120KHz efficiently between them.
Jeff
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**** I asked in an electrical forum, and I was told that Ihave a single phase with 2 hot legs. ***
Most residential wiring is what electricians refer to as split phase where one of the three 220-240V phases in the utility's distribution system is split into two legs (or phases) that are, as Jeff notes, 180 degrees apart. I've tried to explain this as briefly as possible on this page.
http://davehouston.org/coupling.htm (http://davehouston.org/coupling.htm)
As noted here, there are several variations in how breaker panels are organized.
Because of the need for large air conditioners, the area around Phoenix has a lot of residences, dating from the '40s & '50s, with true 3-phase systems. Large condos may also have 3-phase as do industrial buildings converted to lofts. Most of Europe has 3-phase residential feeds but only one phase is typically used for lights except in large units with high current needs
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Jeff, you are probably correct, and I may invest in an xpcp which is a bit cheaper. I opened up my GE panel from 1980, and the label inside is quite faded. But I think I can make sense of the drawing attached. The paddles for the breakers alternate from left to right, starting from the top left. Does anyone agree?
EDIT... Looking again, I think I have
aa
Bb
Aa
Bb
**** I asked in an electrical forum, and I was told that Ihave a single phase with 2 hot legs. ***
From the drawing you provided, it does appear that your breakers alternate "by row," meaning that the two breakers next to each other are on the same phase (leg), but are on the opposite phase (leg) from the row above and/or below.
From that, mapping out the circuits shouldn't be that difficult. It really doesn't matter which phase you call "A," and which one you call "B" - just as long as you consistently label each row accordingly. Double-pole breakers (220 breakers for things like an electric oven/stove/dryer/air conditioner) sit across both phases.
Once you've mapped that out, you can go back and troubleshoot the misbehaving lights - I suspect they are not on the same phase.
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Thank you Moan
I installed (plugged in) an xtbr, and all my x10 woes disappeared.
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Thank you for the update.
Glad you have the system working now.