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💬General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: Tuicemen on August 17, 2015, 07:36:14 PM

Title: PLC Wi-Fi Module test ideas (input requested)
Post by: Tuicemen on August 17, 2015, 07:36:14 PM
This unit is currently in a limited beta test and I do have one as I expressed in the Wi-Fi thread
 (http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=28628.0) What I would like is some ideas for testing from the community. this would ensure a extensive test.
Keep in mind this is only a Wi-Fi to PLC  no RF  (no Wi-Fi to RF) module and I won't be commenting on all success or failures of suggested tests here as this is just to get a feel for what may be expected.
I can state the hardware works as expected and I think the major work needs to be done on the software side.
Any issues I may find needs to be confirmed with other testers to be sure it isn't just my router setup.
 >!
Title: Re: PLC Wi-Fi Module test ideas (input requested)
Post by: dave w on August 19, 2015, 02:40:22 PM
$0.02

This might be early since the manual is likely still being written, but I think ease of setup and a procedure as bullet proof as possible is an imperative.

How easy does it connect to the LAN? Is it as easy as installing a new Windows computer in your WiFi network?  What about WAN access? Is port forwarding necessary? Is a DYNDNS necessary? Does the phone app do all the heavy lifting? etc.

I guess those thoughts should follow through on how easy the phone app is to set up with lights and devices, etc. Being a retired Motorola technical instructor and technical writer on government WMD demil projects  make me sensitive to those areas often overlooked.

Also I hope Authinx takes a different marketing approach compared to old X10. Although new X10 must not shoot themselves in the foot, but I hope they do not advertise the product to be much easier to setup than it actually is.  Old X10, advertising how easy it was to setup the original non WiFi four camera XCam system went something like:  " SO EASY TO SET UP, AN EIGHT YEAR OLD CAN DO IT 5 MINUTES!!". Which soured a lot of new users against old X10.


Title: Re: PLC Wi-Fi Module test ideas (input requested)
Post by: Tuicemen on August 19, 2015, 03:49:59 PM
There was no instructions with the unit I received so I had to request a how to setup email.
The setup I don't expect to change much and is fairly straight forward however an android device is currently required so it is a little more difficult then setting up a new PC.
I'm currently unable to test off site with the internet however it does use a Port # and I suspect this needs to be configured in ones router for off site connections.
Connection via the internet is a top my test list as is easy of use for the app ( device, rooms, scenes, timers setup)
 >!
Title: Re: PLC Wi-Fi Module test ideas (input requested)
Post by: dave w on August 19, 2015, 05:59:22 PM
"Tuice"
You know what to test for. Do us proud.  >!
Title: Re: PLC Wi-Fi Module test ideas (input requested)
Post by: Tuicemen on August 19, 2015, 07:40:29 PM
 :-[
Well I'll sure try, the old x10wti ignored some of my input/suggestions in testing of past devices So far this hasn't happened with Authinx.
My input on the XPS4 is something that Authinx looked at closely.

I have sent my observations to another tester for confirmations and feed back as  I don't wish to  delay this any more then it already has been.
the main issue is the software from my experience so far.
 >!
Title: Re: PLC Wi-Fi Module test ideas (input requested)
Post by: toasterking on August 19, 2015, 10:53:13 PM
Regarding the initial setup, it needs to be easy for brand new users to unbox and get working with minimal effort, but some users will also have a CM15A and ActiveHome Pro or something similar.  There needs to be at least minimal instructions to help existing users augment or migrate from their existing setup.

Does it work with multiple controlling devices (phones/tablets) and does the status of each X10 module stay in sync across those devices?  Similarly, if a module status changes while a device is out of WiFi range, does it sync correctly once it reconnects?

I am probably not a typical user, but I would also be very interested in the hardware performance and protocol conformity.

I'm not expecting answers to those, but those are some things I would play with whilst testing.
Title: Re: PLC Wi-Fi Module test ideas (input requested)
Post by: Tuicemen on August 20, 2015, 07:32:39 AM
Thanks toasterking,
I have tested for some things on your list. and some things I had intended to but they slipped my mind. Your list has helped to remind me to look at some things.
 I can say it reacts well to power outages as I have unplugged it and moved it to different locations it was even unplugged for 12 hours before being plugged back in and it reconnected to the router just fine.
 >!
Title: Re: PLC Wi-Fi Module test ideas (input requested)
Post by: toasterking on August 23, 2015, 12:59:40 AM
Good to hear!
Title: Some interesting Wi-Fi Module test discoverys!
Post by: Tuicemen on September 08, 2015, 12:31:46 PM
I did some extensive tests over the weekend using JV Digital Engineering's XTBM-Pro x10 Signal Analyzer (http://jvde.us/xtbm-pro.htm)
This is one tool that really is handy for not only troubleshooting but also getting to know your setup.
Using this I discovered some interesting things.
These test were all done at my off grid solar place and I plan to do more extensive test in the city.
I initially was getting some really strange readings with the Wi-Fi unit plugged in.
1:
Multi PLC send readings, collisions and other errors.
None of these affected any of my timers or macro However that possibility could have happened in a more extensive setup.
Since I had my Cm15a plugged in as well as a new X10 PLC repeater (I'm testing as well) I assumed it was the repeater so I removed it from the system which cut down some repeats but not collisions.
The strange thing was If I sent a command from the Wi-Fi unit with the app there were no collisions.
I fired up AHP and looked at the X10 activity it too showed multi PLC commands after a RF.
I ran around looking for equipment that may be adding PLC signals and the only thing that I could come up with was the DS7000. However I had already unplugged it  ???
So I unplugged my CM15 figuring it had finally bit the dust.
Sent a RF command to turn on a light close by and it came on.
WTF  ??? ??? the XTBM-Pro showed I was still sending PLC with a RF with no collisions and no repeats. But what transceiver was plugged in? ???
The WI_FI module B:( B:(
Unplugging it and sending a RF resulted in nothing working. :)%
I was told this had no RF capabilities ??? :' obviously it does! though it is most likely only for receiving. :)%
With this new discovery I suggested some app changes that would allow us to benefit from this.

2:
With both the Wi-Fi and cm15 plugged in I also noticed the first PLC send was  less powerful then the second. Both the Wi-Fi unit and cm15 were on the same circuit however the Wi-Fi unit was closer to the XTMB-Pro which was also on the same circuit.
I place it on a separate circuit and removed first the Wi-Fi unit from the system then the CM15 testing each separately.
The Wi-Fi Unit produced a PLC signal almost twice as strong as my old CM15

3:
I knew my backup generator created some noise while running though the XTBM showed this to be only .04vpp
I tested from this circuit with the Wi-Fi unit  sending to another circuit and had no issues but this wasn't a good test so I set out to find something that would generate lots of noise.
With out the XTBM this would have been next to impossible however with it I found my coffee maker to be a real noise maker at one point in its brewing cycle producing .99vpp for a short period with the generator running as well.
With this info I move the Wi-Fi unit to the same outlet with the XTBM plugged into a nearby outlet(same circuit) I watched for the peek noise and sent a On command from the App.
Even in a very high noisy situation the command made it to a near by light.
It is possible I missed the peek noise  when sending (I find it hard to believe a signal got threw that) so I'll run this test again using a RF remote a few more times.

Title: Re: PLC Wi-Fi Module test ideas (input requested)
Post by: dave w on September 09, 2015, 08:26:57 PM
You are just teasing me Tuice. Just teasing me.  B:(
Someone lend me a hankie.
Title: Re: PLC Wi-Fi Module test ideas (input requested)
Post by: Tuicemen on September 09, 2015, 09:30:32 PM
You are just teasing me Tuice. Just teasing me.  B:(
If Authinx is teasing me with this prototype then I'm teasing you.  rofl
A interesting puzzling fact is my prototype seems to be the only one that will transceive RF ???

Since this is a Wi-Fi device placement will be key for best results I have mine directly beside my router though it seems to work from any outlet I plug it into even a noisy one.
My generator when running sends noise over the whole building, no mater where I plug-in the XTBM-Pro for testing it reports .04Vpp
I've also tested with the XTBM (not the pro model) and it shows the generator producing the same noise.
Another interesting thing, with noise on the line the XTBM-Pro shows the Wi-Fi module sending a stronger X10 signal then with no noise on the line ???

The performance in a noisy situation I'll admit needs further testing, However at my off grid location I'm limited to noisy devices as I've got rid of most.
Although I haven't test all the things that I rarely use.
 >!
Title: Re: PLC Wi-Fi Module test ideas (input requested)
Post by: JeffVolp on September 10, 2015, 12:55:49 AM
Another interesting thing, with noise on the line the XTBM-Pro shows the Wi-Fi module sending a stronger X10 signal then with no noise on the line ???

Actually, I would expect that because the noise would add to the X10 signal level.  The incoming signal passes through a bandpass amplifier and precision rectifier.  Any in-band noise will be included with the X10 signal itself.

Jeff
Title: Re: PLC Wi-Fi Module test ideas (input requested)
Post by: dave w on September 10, 2015, 08:03:03 PM
A interesting puzzling fact is my prototype seems to be the only one that will transceive RF ???
Yes, that is pretty weird. It was even a surprise to Authinx?

If this is a preview, I hope X10 gives us a way of disabling the X10 receiver, for those of us that handle RF in other ways (e.g. WS800).

Still it's pretty exciting that at least you are playing with (at last) a real product.
Title: Re: PLC Wi-Fi Module test ideas (input requested)
Post by: Tuicemen on September 10, 2015, 09:04:20 PM

If this is a preview, I hope X10 gives us a way of disabling the X10 receiver, for those of us that handle RF in other ways (e.g. WS800).
.
Actually I recommend a lot of RF options once I discovered the capability.
The software currently doesn't address RF.
Ignoring it similar to how AHP does was one suggestion for a option.
Title: Re: PLC Wi-Fi Module test ideas (input requested)
Post by: Dan1 on September 14, 2015, 11:58:25 AM
 #:) Great work Tuicemen. What does this all mean for this long-awaited device's eventual release as a consumer product? Thanks.
Title: Re: PLC Wi-Fi Module test ideas (input requested)
Post by: Tuicemen on September 14, 2015, 01:19:41 PM
#:) Great work Tuicemen. What does this all mean for this long-awaited device's eventual release as a consumer product? Thanks.
Thanks Dan1,
Most of my discoveries thus far shows the Hardware works well with commands issued in a medium sized household.
If you own a cm15 this will perform slightly better (compared to mine)
I don't see any major Hardware related issues that would affect a final build as long as it is based off this unit I'm testing.
But then I'm unsure of the hardware's limitations and this may be limiting the software.

The major issue that will cause further delays could be the software and how long it takes to get out another build.
The next software build will really tell.
I've yet to be able to connect from the internet however this appears to be software related

I do know the owner is as eager as the rest of us to see this released but he want a quality unit.
I don't expect the software to be perfect for the initial release.
However I hope with everyone's test suggestions, I can make suggestions that will make most some what satisfied with the initial release.

I wish I could give some idea as to a release date but really I have no idea.
I don't expect it to be till after October but then I've been wrong before. ;)
Title: Re: PLC Wi-Fi Module test ideas (input requested)
Post by: Dan1 on September 18, 2015, 03:15:43 PM
#:) Great work Tuicemen. What does this all mean for this long-awaited device's eventual release as a consumer product? Thanks.
If you own a cm15 this will perform slightly better (compared to mine)
I've yet to be able to connect from the internet however this appears to be software related
I do know the owner is as eager as the rest of us to see this released but he want a quality unit.
I wish I could give some idea as to a release date but really I have no idea.
I don't expect it to be till after October but then I've been wrong before. ;)

Don't own the cm15. My X10 stuff (http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=29235.0 (http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=29235.0)) is pretty basic and not new. I still use a few modules and switches in my basement. When newer CFLs stopped working properly with X10 is when I really stopped adding modules, and that was years ago. Authinx has to sell this product to the average consumer like myself. I don't think X10 items have been sold in retail stores anywhere in NYC for years. Radio Shack may have been the last store to sell them around here, and not for maybe 10 years.
Title: Re: PLC Wi-Fi Module test ideas (input requested)
Post by: Tuicemen on September 18, 2015, 06:29:07 PM
I wouldn't expect to see x10 modules offered at a retail store any time soon again.
The old owners damaged the rep which the new owners are trying to repair.
Title: Re: PLC Wi-Fi Module test ideas (input requested)
Post by: toasterking on September 19, 2015, 10:36:26 AM
I hate to say this, but I don't expect X10 to have mass appeal to the average consumer again.  Development has been behind competitors for a long time now, and even if it catches up, the barrier to entry will always be higher now because of the additional filtering and planning needed to retain compatibility with power supplies used in modern equipment on the power line in the average consumer's home.  The only way to completely fix the latter is not to use the existing protocol.  Competing systems are available now that have a lot more functionality out of the box with less hassle.

I'm not the average consumer, and I love X10 because it's so hackable.  I don't want one-box solutions that do something cool and high-tech; I want solutions I can build that do exactly what I want.  X10 has directly catered to this sort of thing in the past with their TW523 interface, PowerFlash Module, Universal Module, and SDK.  I don't mind the barrier to entry because I get a system that has enjoyed broad manufacturer support over the years (and thus many inexpensive and varied modules available), has an open and published (and SIMPLE) communications protocol, has many modules that are electrically customizable (old-fashioned through-hole PCB design helps with this), supports both power line and RF communication, has a free SDK, and is not cloud-dependent.  How many other systems can claim all these features?  I don't know of a single one.
Title: Re: PLC Wi-Fi Module test ideas (input requested)
Post by: dhouston on September 19, 2015, 11:46:33 AM
If they are to find a market, they need to abandon PLC and use RF exclusively.
Title: Re: PLC Wi-Fi Module test ideas (input requested)
Post by: toasterking on September 19, 2015, 12:56:12 PM
I've seen that other automation systems that use power-line communication like Insteon and UPB also have their share of problems with power-line noise and signal suckers.  It's all very useful when it works, but power lines simply weren't made to be data buses.  However, I also think that the current X10 RF implementation is nice as a supplement to PLC but is not nearly robust enough to build an entire home installation around, even in a small house like mine.  The transmission distance needs to be better, it needs to detect collisions and retransmit, we need repeaters that don't compete with each other, we need at least status query, extended dim, and some manner of scene support, and we need some manner of privacy or encryption.  Some of these are doable without breaking compatibility with existing devices, but not all are.  If they're going to go RF, it needs to be something that can compete with Z-Wave.  Just my opinion; feel free to disregard as desired.
EDIT: Clarification:  As a supplementary system, I can forgive/cope with these weaknesses and mitigate the issues that result.  As the core of a home automation installation, it would be unacceptable.

While on the topic of interference, I'll note that when there is power-line interference, there is usually something you can do about it since you have physical access to the wiring that is used as the bus.  With RF, if a neighbor or nearby business happens to have some device that spews out strong noise at the same frequency that your RF gear uses, you don't have any options short of building a Faraday cage around your house.
Title: Re: PLC Wi-Fi Module test ideas (input requested)
Post by: dhouston on September 19, 2015, 03:30:05 PM
FCC limits on RF transmit power will likely mean there's no reason to worry about neighbors.

And, while X10's shoddy design and lousy QC probably means that X10 transmit power is far below FCC allowed power, range is easily increased by better receiver design and by designing so that antennas have galvanic isolation using things like isolation transformers which would allow for use of more efficient antennas and RF preamps. 300' range is easy with no increase in transmit power.
Title: Re: PLC Wi-Fi Module test ideas (input requested)
Post by: toasterking on September 19, 2015, 04:35:14 PM
So we have a potential solution for one of its many problems so far!  Progress is good!   ;D
Title: Re: PLC Wi-Fi Module test ideas (input requested)
Post by: Tuicemen on September 19, 2015, 05:01:06 PM
300' range is easy with no increase in transmit power.
That may be desirable distance for some but for me this would mean I could have over 10 neighbours possibly causing problems with my setup in the city.
Talk about a trouble shooting nightmare. B:(
As it is now I have only two maybe 3 neighbours possibly able to cause issues with RF.
With one new SR751 I now get almost 200 feet at my off grid place where there is no neighbour close enough to cause a issue, even if the 300 foot range was to be incorporated.
Maybe a range reducer would be needed for some. rofl
 >!
Title: Re: PLC Wi-Fi Module test ideas (input requested)
Post by: dhouston on September 19, 2015, 06:23:13 PM
One need not jump to the maximum. A more efficient antenna can give 50'-75' with a (plug-in) pre-amp increasing that to +300'.

All of Europe uses 433.92Mhz for X10 and nearly all other automation. And, they allow more transmit power. I haven't seen many interference complaints.