X10 Community Forum
💬General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: HA Dave on November 18, 2016, 04:52:12 PM
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I was sure HA was mainstream when the cable company started installing it. But this... this is proof positive.
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For a second I thought I missed out on the HA xmas ornament balls. But I guess that was just a prop afterall. :'
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Is it really "home automation" or home remote control? I guess it really doesn't matter, but you and I both remember the smart automated home banners being waved in the '90s with products like Excelon communications being embedded in home appliances, then in the 2000's more banners with Z-Wave, insteon, and ZigBee. And here we are today and the peak of "home automation" seems to be when Duke Power remotely turns off your AC and water heater when the lines sag. Looks good in a Sifi movie, but I still don't see it catching on with anymore strength than in the '80s. $0.02
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For a second I thought I missed out on the HA xmas ornament balls. But I guess that was just a prop afterall. :'
I was in a store.... saw Blue Tooth Christmas Tree lights. The string of lights had 4 little speakers that connected to a phone (via BT) to wirelessly play Christmas music (or White Wedding in states with legal pot).
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Is it really "home automation" or home remote control? ........ Looks good in a Sifi movie, but I still don't see it catching on with anymore strength than in the '80s. $0.02
I like the idea of a truly "smart" home that can make suggestions.... like letting you know the heat isn't turned on when the temperature is expected to drop. We don't see a lot of that yet. But these on-line set-up automation devices can be pretty smart.
I added some stuff to work with apple's ihome. I set them up to also recognize my Chamberlain my-Q garage door opener. So when the door is open... at certain times... lights will come on. The door opener can also be programed (all on the cloud servers) so if we forget to close the garage door... besides reminding us... it will close the door. Of course the auto-closing includes 30 secs of lights flashing and beeping before closing and there are still those safety lasers too.
And... things are mixing (and matching) with google or amazon talking/listening voice controlled stuff.
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like letting you know the heat isn't turned on when the temperature is expected to drop.
So this is my interest... forget programmable or learning thermostats, I want a PREDICTIVE thermostat.
I'm fortunate to have cast iron radiators that are very efficient. However, if the thermostat heats the house to a set 70 and shuts off, there is so much heat still emanating from the radiators that the temp continues to climb.
First, you feel nice and toasty. Then the heat won't come on until the temperature drops to the set point. It's only a 1 or 2 degree difference but it's very noticeable.
Why can't a thermostat either read the returning water temp to see that the home is getting warmer or better yet, figure out the rate of rise to slow things down. For that matter, a predictive thermostat could figure out that at the rate the temperature is dropping it will be cold in an hour and gently nudge the furnace for a little heat.
Maybe there's something out there, but I have yet to find it.
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like letting you know the heat isn't turned on when the temperature is expected to drop.
So this is my interest... forget programmable or learning thermostats, I want a PREDICTIVE thermostat.................. Maybe there's something out there, but I have yet to find it.
Besides a HA hobbyist... I am also a bicyclist. Every year I get caught in rain storms.... on days when the weather is predicted to be sunny and clear. We don't know the future. But we should be able to be able to react to weather changes much better than we do.
It also seems to me many of us HA types tend to look at long term solutions. With software... there are no long term solutions. Sure... we really got our moneys worth out of Windows XP (I am still using a couple XP HA PC's). But I wouldn't setup a furnace to depend on XP...... or windows 10.
I've come to accept that whatever HA device I buy today.... may not last long. So... maybe look at furnace control via an Internet controlled thermostat using a smart phone. You might find your solution through a cloud based app that can look at weather predictions minute by minute as well as inside (thermostat) temperatures.
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Here's how my simple mind looks at the problem:
Let's say the house temp is rising 1 degree every 15 minutes, so the desired temp will be reached in one hour. With a hot water/steam system especially with cast iron radiators the temp will continue to rise after the desired temp is reached. Depending on the system, the rise can be 1-2 degrees which is significant.
My thinking is that in the last 15 minutes as the house approaches the desired temp a programmable thermostat should easily be able to see the rate of rise and adjust accordingly. Slow down the rate by cycling the furnace or lowering the flame (if possible). That way there is no over shoot and the house remains closer to the set temp. The same could be said for having the furnace come back on.
Some thermostats require switches be set but I've never seen where it helps control the running of the system as opposed to just being able to turn a system on or off.
I too rode bicycle for years (while in California) and my Garmin shows about 57k miles for those 9 years. Generally needing to predict the weather was non-existent in SoCal, sunny and warm. But now that I'm in NY and riding much less, even a short ride requires a trip to a weather site. Sigh...
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like letting you know the heat isn't turned on when the temperature is expected to drop.
Prior to our current system, we had a pricy Honeywell programmable thermostat that learned how long it took the heat pump to either raise or lower the homes temperature from the "setback" setting to the "at home" setting. Although our system did not have the residual heat problem you describe, I recollect that the "installers manual" (about 50, 8.5in x 11in pages) addressed this issue of "overshoot". That thermostat is long out of production, but this one seems similar. http://yourhome.honeywell.com/en/products/thermostat/wi-fi-smart-thermostat-rth9580 .
You might call Honeywell and ask them if this thermostat can compensate for overshoot. $0.02
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The wife and I went out this afternoon to pick-up something that was suggested as a present (Christmas) for a grandchild. Walking through the store..... I saw yet another sign that Home Automation is now Mainstream. And for us solid users of HA... yet another option... that doesn't involve switching brands.
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You might call Honeywell and ask them if this thermostat can compensate for overshoot. $0.02
I haven't called them yet but based on research over the weekend, this fits my needs and wants. Thank you! The Honeywell is both WiFi and ZWave I also decided to run new t'stat wire to include the "C" wire to both thermostats. Now I just need to figure out where to connect the new "C" wire at the furnace end. Not an easy task considering my limited abilities.
I also see the X10 stuff riding off into the sunset little by little.
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I also see the X10 stuff riding off into the sunset little by little.
I don't know. Lots of parts and pieces still around in X10. And many of us with large, solid, dependable, X10 setups. I would NOT recommend anyone walk away from X10. I've always thought it was OK to incorporate anything into HA if it served a purpose (even a clapper). I see nothing wrong with adding another flavor of HA (or 2) right along with a stable X10 setup.
Actually I think I'd rather have a couple separate moderate sized systems.... than just one extra huge system.
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http://yourhome.honeywell.com/en/products/thermostat/wi-fi-smart-thermostat-rth9580 .
I have a variant of that thermostat. It's the touch screen version that precedes this one (8000 series) but I don't believe the control is significantly different. The benefit to this one is that you can get data from the web fed to it though I do not believe it can use it for anything. I looked at upgrading so I could use predicted outside temperature conditions to control my heating/cooling but it cannot do that. Mine has settings that learn how long it takes to heat the home so it will turn on prior to the set time/temp such that the home will be the right temperature when you ask it to be. I have a heat pump so it does not overshoot, but I imagine there are settings to help with that as this is a very nice thermostat!
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Just in time for XMA$ - the $150 talking light bulb.
https://www.hellotwist.com/buy/speaker (https://www.hellotwist.com/buy/speaker)
Could it also be a listening light bulb?
http://wallstreetpit.com/112382-music-speakers-headphones-listening/?google_editors_picks=true (http://wallstreetpit.com/112382-music-speakers-headphones-listening/?google_editors_picks=true)
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Could it also be a listening light bulb?
http://wallstreetpit.com/112382-music-speakers-headphones-listening/?google_editors_picks=true (http://wallstreetpit.com/112382-music-speakers-headphones-listening/?google_editors_picks=true)
When I was searching for a method to go whole-house voice control.....
My son-in-law was telling me how he heard a weather warning late one night..... over the baby monitor. The neighbors weather alert was easily heard through the walls in the baby's room and amplified by the monitor.
That gave me the idea to experiment with baby monitors. But it should also let you know... your neighbors devices hear you clearly. We're way past the day when we had the luxury of worrying about someone hacking into your business. You personal information and... even personal conversations have been exploited by government systems for YEARS now.
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Light bulb speakers is a pretty cool idea actually. My house has speakers in the ceiling of my kitchen, but if it didn't I could potentially have installed these into a couple recessed light sockets. How cool would that be to just add music to your master bath by changing a light bulb!
That said, I absolutely hate combined devices that have one critical/expensive component (bluetooth speaker) linked to a cheaper one that's more prone to failure (light bulb). I remember all in one motherboards when they first came out costing a fortune and needing replacement when a serial port failed (for example).
As for monitoring audio over your speakers, people should remember that every laptop in use has built-in speakers. :'
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As for monitoring audio over your speakers, people should remember that every laptop in use has built-in speakers. :'
As do some shoes...
http://newatlas.com/shoe-phone/11166/ (http://newatlas.com/shoe-phone/11166/)
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Light bulb speakers is a pretty cool idea actually. My house has speakers in the ceiling of my kitchen, but if it didn't I could potentially have installed these into a couple recessed light sockets.
It's amazing the things that used to require wires... yet no longer do. Phones, door bells, intercoms, speakers, Internet connections. Yet I find really good speakers (like in home theaters) the Bluetooth devices aren't available... yet. Just smallish speakers. And I still have phone jacks in every room of the house. And some hardwired Internet [CAT5] as well. It would almost be hard to decide what modern wiring should look like. I've even considered pulling out my outside low-voltage wiring.
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And here's yet another approach.
http://hothardware.com/news/ge-introduces-stylish-circular-led-lamp-with-integrated-amazon-alexa-voice-support?google_editors_picks=true (http://hothardware.com/news/ge-introduces-stylish-circular-led-lamp-with-integrated-amazon-alexa-voice-support?google_editors_picks=true)
From the article...
Voice is the future of home automation and the combination of Alexa with the GE LED table lamp, provides people with a simple and frictionless way to interact with their homes.
While details are still scarce, it appears that the ESP32 module I plan to use here...
https://www.laser.com/dhouston/ultimate-X10.html (https://www.laser.com/dhouston/ultimate-X10.html)
also has voice capabilities so now I have to figure out how to make it fit into a light bulb. :'
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You know, I've been thinking about this a lot lately and it's the main reason I came over to the forum to see what everyone here was talking about. I think this is the point where X10 get left in the dust. HA tech has gone mainstream, and while a lot of it is still cost prohibitive to retrofit an entire house with (although the current day X10 stuff is as well) the newer, non PLC based stuff works better, is more reliable, and has far better interfaces - including smartphone/tablet apps and now the bevy of voice interface devices hitting the market.
I saw another thread where Authinx was considering dusting off some old products and reissuing them. If that's their business plan, then this really is the end. Maybe PLC hardware can still have a future with modern interfaces and controllers if they can figure out how to deal with the fact that these days almost every device plugged in isn't an incandescent bulb anymore and rather is a noise generator or a signal sucker. These devices need to appeal to the mainstream, non-hobbyists that don't have the knowledge or patience to hack together a bunch of obscure components and software to make their systems work. I fear X10 is already too far behind to catch up.
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You might like this...
http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-amazon-echo-20161212-story.html (http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-hiltzik-amazon-echo-20161212-story.html)
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HA tech has gone mainstream,
I fear X10 is already too far behind to catch up.
I dunno. I have been in X10 since 1978 and HA since 1984 using a Commodore computer that recognized voice commands (sort of) and would control one X10 house code. I wrote articles and reviews for two home automation magazines in the 1990s and had our home written up in the Wall street Journal. In that time I have heard "HA is mainstream" many times. And it ain't there yet.
I thought Z-wave when it first came out would actually bring HA mainstream since soooo many companies signed up for licensing and manufacture of Z-Wave devices. Now I tend to think Z-wave is more dead than X10. Now with everything going WiFi I thought mainstream again is here, as do you. But I still don't see it happening. I hope I am wrong and you are right.
The huge impediment I see now is, even though WiFi is the commonality, protocols are not. Hue doesn't talk to LiFx, which doesn't talk to WeMo which doesn't talk to Nabe, which doesn't talk to ..... And MagicLight, Flux and others went Bluetooth. I suppose there are multi-language hubs out there, but now the problem you note of non-hobbyists not having the knowledge or patience to hack together a multi brand/protocol system comes into play. Lets not mention the feud between Amazon Alexa/Echo and Google Home. They have communality with Phillips Hue, but that's about it.
As far as X10 being too far behind to catch up. I agree. If X10 would act like they are really interested in modernizing the standard, products, and staying in business, they would, at minimum, get their dog WiFi module on the market. After that they should partnership with JV Digital Engineering for a high power repeater design that is simple to install (like Smarthome's clothes dryer plug module). Or design two RF coupled high power PLC amps, again like Smarthome had. Those two things would at least breath some money and hopefully life in to X10.
Like I said, I hope you are right about HA being mainstream. $0.02
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I do agree that the article dhouston posted is spot on about a lot of things - Alexa is primarily built as a way to suck people into buying more stuff from Amazon, not as an HA interface - but the voice monitoring capability has now advanced in that there are multiple companies building their own versions of it, and for people to really adopt them, they need to be more than just a shopping tool.
I don't know how much interoperability we will see between protocols, I think we'll see more companies go the way of Philips and build cross-compatible systems. They'll support Amazon, Google, Apple, and probably forget about Microsoft just like the app development space has gone. Consumers today seem to be more brand-focused than functionality-focused anyways, just look at people that will buy Apple everything regardless of capability or price. So hacking together stuff from multiple companies probably won't be on the average consumer's radar. They'll just buy stuff that works within their preferred ecosystem.
I'm sure I'm just like a lot of people here - heavily invested in X10 stuff that is quickly losing it's luster and doesn't look like there's much hope on the horizon. I want this stuff to be mainstream because we need the competition to drive down the prices. $20 per light bulb is still a bit silly in my mind.
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I thought when prices for X10 went from $5/switch to $20+/switch it was the end of cheap automation. Then I saw what the other protocols were doing. SmartHome/Insteon stuff is $50/switch. ZWave/Zigbee stuff isn't much cheaper. Then there's the light bulb stuff. $20/light bulb IS rediculous when you consider how many bulbs are in the zones where you currently might have a single switch. For me, if I wanted to automate my living room I'd either have to replace 2 switches or 6 bulbs. If I wanted to do my game room, that's another 6 bulbs though I'd be looking at a 4-way switch setup. Outside at my entry I have 4 bulbs. Either way, the per bulb approach looks cheaper initially but gets way more expensive quickly.
On the other hand. If you do have the capability to go per bulb automation, you can do lots more interesting things. Maybe the lights over your TV or projector should be off but the ones at the back of the room should be at 20%. Maybe you want to have the light by the bar turned on more so you can see where the beer is. Maybe you want a different lighting arrangement depending on the light level outside. Perhaps you want the shades closed in winter at night but open in the summer at night (for heating reasons). Depending on the state of the drapes, you might want to do something different with the lighting too. That's all pretty easy when you can control each bulb (given a decent HA controller).
I like options so all the new stuff is good with me. I don't like taking local control away is all.
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I thought Z-wave when it first came out would actually bring HA mainstream since soooo many companies signed up for licensing and manufacture of Z-Wave devices. Now I tend to think Z-wave is more dead than X10. Now with everything going WiFi I thought mainstream again is here, as do you. But I still don't see it happening. I hope I am wrong and you are right.
The older I get.... The less often I am sure I am correct. But my "main stream" I didn't mean better for us serious hobbyist. I meant more and more people will be using some sort of Home Automation. And will become more familiar with HA uses, process, and brands.
I do agree that the article dhouston posted is spot on about a lot of things - Alexa is primarily built as a way to suck people into buying more stuff from Amazon, not as an HA interface - but the voice monitoring capability has now advanced in that there are multiple companies building their own versions of it, and for people to really adopt them, they need to be more than just a shopping tool.
I don't know how much interoperability we will see between protocols, I think we'll see more companies go the way of Philips and build cross-compatible systems.
Actually... I think Alexa is sort of like broadcast television. It's commercial/marketing side pays the bills. The entertainment/service side attracts the users. That seems to work OK for TV.
And... it's OK with me if not every flavor of HA is compatible with every other brand (although that might be nice). I think I can easily work around using a few different protocols.
I thought when prices for X10 went from $5/switch to $20+/switch it was the end of cheap automation. Then I saw what the other protocols were doing. SmartHome/Insteon stuff is $50/switch. ZWave/Zigbee stuff isn't much cheaper. Then there's the light bulb stuff. $20/light bulb IS rediculous
I like options so all the new stuff is good with me. I don't like taking local control away is all.
Thank goodness. I have a great supply of X10 (although a spare CM19a might be nice). Supply and demand will always control the prices. Thankfully there are LOTS of new stuff (more than my wallet can handle) and new ways of using HA. I mean... I started this thread with a slow cooker (sold at Walmart designed to be controlled from work)... using a smart phone. That's darn good Home Automation.
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In case anyone is interested, I ended up buying two Honeywell RTH9580 thermostats. Wifi but not zwave. I was surprised and disappointed that even though this thermostat knows the current outdoor temperature and even the next few days, it can't "keep the hydronic water" warmer than usual so as to not blast things when it gets good and cold. It seems such an easy thing to program.
Anyways, I also bought a HomeSeer S2 which comes with a Zwave and X10 plugin. Alexa sees the Homeseer which is a plus. I finally have a garage controller that "knows" if the door is open or closed and sends me a text message and/or email of the current status.
I've also seen mentioned the high price of Zwave items. I wonder why that is? Is there some licensing requirement? I can't think of any other reason as this electronic stuff is usually cheap to produce in quantity. It makes the X10 stuff a fantastic bargain IF it worked without all the interference and distance issues. Some kind of Wifi module or two would cover a house so easily. What a shame.
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I've also seen mentioned the high price of Zwave items. I wonder why that is? Is there some licensing requirement? I can't think of any other reason as this electronic stuff is usually cheap to produce in quantity. It makes the X10 stuff a fantastic bargain IF it worked without all the interference and distance issues. Some kind of Wifi module or two would cover a house so easily. What a shame.
I don't think there's any exorbitant license requirement. When they started, the license cost was high enough (about $500 IIRC) to keep DIYers at bay. I think the high prices are just because that's the way these companies do business.
As for WiFi, I've often wondered (in the forum) why Authinx doesn't add a $2 ESP8266 WiFi chip to their switches and modules and be done with powerline noise & signal sucker issues. For example...
https://www.itead.cc/smart-home/slampher.html (https://www.itead.cc/smart-home/slampher.html)
https://www.itead.cc/smart-home/sonoff-touch.html (https://www.itead.cc/smart-home/sonoff-touch.html)
https://www.itead.cc/smart-home/smart-socket.html (https://www.itead.cc/smart-home/smart-socket.html)
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As for WiFi, I've often wondered (in the forum) why Authinx doesn't add a $2 ESP8266 WiFi chip to their switches and modules and be done with powerline noise & signal sucker issues.
:)%
This is my biggest problem with my X10 stuff. It's simply not reliable enough. My house isn't that big and I have a PLC01 and an SR751 and a signal bridge and multiple filters and I still have devices that either sporadically work or don't work at all.
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After that they should partnership with JV Digital Engineering ...
I tried that and even sent them samples, but apparently they weren't interested.
Jeff
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I tried that and even sent them samples, but apparently they weren't interested.
Jeff
Then they are doomed. Without your XTB-IIR, my system was maybe 50% reliable in some locations. I'm now at 100% reliable. If they don't understand the limitation of their own product and strive to make true fixes widely available, they don't have a chance of saving the business. Instead of making the XTB products available, they are wasting time and money on the WiFi unit that will be minimally useful by the time it hits the streets. They don't manufacture components people want (see the thread about what modules should be resurrected) and they don't seem to incorporate suggestions people have made. At least Jeff (among others) have provided options that work at an affordable price that actually exist...
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Jeff,
That is a sad thing to read.
I also fear the present X10 is going down the same road to doom as X10WTI went down.
WiFi module is looking more like vaporware every day that passes.
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Jeff,
That is a sad thing to read.
I also fear the present X10 is going down the same road to doom as X10WTI went down.
WiFi module is looking more like vaporware every day that passes.
With the very limited communication I had with them about producing the XTB-IIR, it sounded like the decisions were being made in China. And since they already had a coupler/repeater in their product line (XPCR), they weren't interested in another one. It might also be that the XTB-IIR would be more expensive to produce than the XPCR, and there would not be the margin required for the distribution chain.
Jeff
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Anyways, I also bought a HomeSeer S2 which comes with a Zwave and X10 plugin. Alexa sees the Homeseer which is a plus.
Some kind of Wifi module or two would cover a house so easily. What a shame.
1. Well now that is interesting! Do you know if the Alexa/Homeseer connection is via Z-Wave, or WiFi?
2. Yes a WiFi module SHOULD be easy. Yes it is a shame. The Sphinx probably did not take three years to build. However they probably did now observe the Chinese New Year.
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I also fear the present X10 is going down the same road to doom as X10WTI went down.
WiFi module is looking more like vaporware every day that passes.
Amen, brother.
Authinx isn't running the manufacturer, the manufacturer is running them.
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Well now that is interesting! Do you know if the Alexa/Homeseer connection is via Z-Wave, or WiFi?
Alexa definitely does not have Zwave capability. On the Alexa website there are various plugins and Homeseer is two of them. One of them takes the command "Alexa, tell Homeseer ..." The other one is simpler, "Alexa, turn on the ..." The first one is wordier and more powerful and specific, I think.
Alexa will try to discover whatever Homeseer sees including door sensors, motion sensors etc. Of course there's no sense to needing that since Alexa can't announce a door sensor is in the open position. Some day, it might be a two way conversation but for now, Alexa only speaks.
For an existing X10 lighting arrangement it should work without too much drama.
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.... Alexa can't announce a door sensor is in the open position. Some day, it might be a two way conversation but for now, Alexa only speaks.
I've been allowing a few things to mill around in my mind. Like.... my ihome devices can send notices/alerts via email/text?/alerts-sounds? to my mobile phone. And... I can purchase an app that will allow me to create my own "sounds" (wav?). I just wonder if using a little Rube Goldberg trickery would allow me to continue to get voice notices.... without a free-standing PC. Just a thought.
For an existing X10 lighting arrangement it should work without too much drama.
Very nice to hear (read)!
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I've got Alexa controlling my X10 setup nicely.
The lights come On/Off before she says OK most times.
Setup was fairly easy once I figured out the scripts to create, which Alex10 now creates for you.
HA-Bridge which Alex10 uses will control many other brands of devices and lights even some that aren't considered a HA device.
Of coarse there is no documentation for that. :(
My wife keeps asking when Alexa will turn on my non smart TV. However when I ask if she wants that, she says she wouldn't use it! ::) :'
The cool thing about Alexa is no voice training was done even though that is still possible.
Very rarely does she not understand a command.
>!
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I just wonder if using a little Rube Goldberg trickery would allow me to continue to get voice notices.... without a free-standing PC.
Homeseer with the X10 plugin sees a motion sensor activate which Homeseer easily sends SMS via email and can trigger other actions. So no PC, but at least the Homeseer which is a glorified Raspberry Pi about the size of a deck of cards with a CM15A plugged into it. You could certainly control different voice files and different text messages depending on which sensor activated, but not sure how your phone could play a different sound file based on the content of the incoming SMS text.
As far as I can tell, Homeseer can't tell Alexa to do anything. I suppose that's why she's Alexa and he is not Alex.
Only you, with your voice an initiate an Alexa action, I think. For now...
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As far as I can tell, Homeseer can't tell Alexa to do anything. I suppose that's why she's Alexa and he is not Alex.
rofl
Only you, with your voice an initiate an Alexa action, I think. For now...
When Davex10 and I first started playing with BVC and PCC voice recognition I was able to get the two to carry on a short scripted conversation.
So I expect (though haven't tried yet) one could get Alexa to respond to a PC sound file or TTS ::) :'
>!
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rofl I just had to try it!
it worked using TTS! ;)
>!
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TTS?? I saw this referenced, but that area of my brain is blank. Please remind me.
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TTS stands for text to speech.
BVC and PCC are both capable of doing this the PC will read what is typed into a text box!
>!
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Thank you and Darn you! BVC?
I sent you an email concerning AléxTen beta.
Thanks.
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BVC (http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=15753.0) although hasn't been update in some time was the go to software for voice control of x10 modules with AHP.
I'll get you out a link to Alex10 as soon as I get it on my server.
>!
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.... BVC?
A user here created a software using the Microsoft Voice recognition (in XP) and the AHP software with the CM15A. Users could voice command things On and Off. We discussed it here at length (http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=13387.0).
Bill still maintains his web site (http://wgjohns.com/forums/index.php?action=unread) too.
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I've been looking at Alexa's possibilities more now.
And have found there are some hidden, not well documented features (Easter eggs one might say).
There are several sites dedicated to revealing them just Google "Alexa Easter eggs"
Since Alexa can hear and understand a PC speaking to it, it is possible for Alexa to do announcements on another Amazon echo, dot or tap in another room.
Since I have only one, the announcement gets made only on the Dot that receives the command.
The trick here is the Simon says feature.
Have your PC say " Alexa, Simon says Your Announcement"
Your Announcement" will be spoken back on all Amazon Alexa enabled devices.
>!
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..... it is possible for Alexa to do announcements on another Amazon echo, dot or tap in another room.
Since I have only one, the announcement gets made only on the Dot that receives the command....
I was thinking I had read somewhere that the dot has a jack.... so another speaker system could grab audio from just a single DOT device. So with a few minutes (X10 minutes) of feeding wires and installing speakers you can have a whole house audio from even just one DOT.
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https://www.amazon.com/TaoTronics-Bluetooth-Transmitter-Connected-Transmission/dp/B00P24XKS8/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1482014117&sr=8-3&keywords=3.5mm+wireless+transmitter
https://www.amazon.com/Mpow-Bluetooth-Receiver-Streambot-Hands-free/dp/B008AGQMQC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1482014223&sr=8-1&keywords=3.5mm+bluetooth+receiver
Only takes one X10 minute.
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..... it is possible for Alexa to do announcements on another Amazon echo, dot or tap in another room.
Since I have only one, the announcement gets made only on the Dot that receives the command....
I was thinking I had read somewhere that the dot has a jack.... so another speaker system could grab audio from just a single DOT device. So with a few minutes (X10 minutes) of feeding wires and installing speakers you can have a whole house audio from even just one DOT.
Yep you could do that but they only work as speakers not a mic same with the Bluetooth route I believe.
The speakers in the Dot are actually very good for such a small device.
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The receiver plugs into a 3.5mm jack on the front of your home theater receiver, hence Alexa out of many speakers. At least that's how I read it.
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I really think we're getting back to a place where the use of Home Automation will be limited... only by our imaginations. Lot of potential projects.
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I'm not sure what to make of this but the ESP32 Hardware Design Guidelines available at...
http://espressif.com/en/products/hardware/esp32/resources (http://espressif.com/en/products/hardware/esp32/resources)
has this at the last page...
5.2 ESP32-Lyra Smart Audio Platform
ESP32-Lyra is a cost-effective smart audio platform, which is specifically designed by Espressif for the IoT industry. With its ESP32 dual-core processor and Wi-Fi + BT capability, ESP32-Lyra features voice recognition, audio playing, and access to cloud services. The ESP32-Lyra platform supports systems of artificial intelligence, voice and image recognition, wireless audio systems, as well as smart home networks.
The ESP32-Lyra Smart Audio Platform has the following features:
• Support for multiple audio interfaces with high extensibility
• Support for touch buttons
• Support for multiple audio formats including WMA, ALAC, AAC, FLAC, OPUS, MP3, WAV, and OGG
• Support for multiple wireless audio standards including DLNA, AirPlay and QPlay
• Support for multiple cloud platforms including Ximalaya FM, YunOS and Amazon
• Support for multiple distribution network protocols including ESP-TOUCH, ALINK, JoyLink3.0 and AirKiss
I've been unable to find any additional documentation but it appears that the $7 ESP32 chip has built-in speech capabilities. What other hardware, if any, is needed is unclear at this time.
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Yep you could do that but they only work as speakers not a mic same with the Bluetooth route I believe.
The speakers in the Dot are actually very good for such a small device.
You could/can add the voice remote.. I think .... to wirelessly connect to the DOT.
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Not sure if that would work but maybe.
I definitely wouldn't get it to work here as My wife would shoot me If I got one more remote! rofl
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I have one. I can be in another room with the remote and activate my new Fire Stick but not Alexa. You just bark commands at it, without even saying "Alexa". Play music, watch Netflix, etc. At least for now.
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Here's an in-depth article on the current state of voice recognition.
http://www.denverpost.com/2016/12/18/google-microsoft-amazon-voice-technology/ (http://www.denverpost.com/2016/12/18/google-microsoft-amazon-voice-technology/)
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Here's an in-depth article on the current state of voice recognition.
http://www.denverpost.com/2016/12/18/google-microsoft-amazon-voice-technology/ (http://www.denverpost.com/2016/12/18/google-microsoft-amazon-voice-technology/)
Yep. The product has improved a lot over the last few years. But more-so..... I think users learn how to talk to the machine. Learning how to talk to a machine.... might compare well to learning how to speak to a dog. It isn't hard to learn or hard to do. But it is slightly different than talking to a person.
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So, instead of you training Alexa/Siri/Cortana, it's Alexa/Siri/Cortana that's training you? ::) :D ;)
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But it's all a lie! I saw a commercial where someone asked the google version "what's the magic word?" and it responded "the magic word is please". I tried the exact same thing and she gave me some gibberish about the meaning of "magic word". :'
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But it's all a lie! I saw a commercial where someone asked the google version "what's the magic word?" and it responded "the magic word is please". I tried the exact same thing and she gave me some gibberish about the meaning of "magic word". :'
No almost all of them are really great! Only YOURS... is a lair.
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So, instead of you training Alexa/Siri/Cortana, it's Alexa/Siri/Cortana that's training you? ::) :D ;)
To a small extent. Sort of in the same way as when you train a dog.... you learn about the dog.
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I had forgotten. Back in the BVC hey day.... I added the TTS response to "sing me a song" to "yeah... right.... pull my finger".
So when showing off BVC I tell the "computer" to do things (turn lights/cameras On and OFF) and she would perform the actions and confirm with the Kate16 (16 bit audio) voice.
When I'd tell her (the computer) to sing me a song.... she would respond with "yeah... right.... pull my finger".
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Here's a timely article today from Mark Zuckerberg on the AI he built for his house: https://www.facebook.com/notes/mark-zuckerberg/building-jarvis/10103347273888091/
"One thing that surprised me about my communication with Jarvis is that when I have the choice of either speaking or texting, I text much more than I would have expected. This is for a number of reasons, but mostly it feels less disturbing to people around me. If I'm doing something that relates to them, like playing music for all of us, then speaking feels fine, but most of the time text feels more appropriate. Similarly, when Jarvis communicates with me, I'd much rather receive that over text message than voice. That's because voice can be disruptive and text gives you more control of when you want to look at it. Even when I speak to Jarvis, if I'm using my phone, I often prefer it to text or display its response."
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I think this quote captures the state of the art.
For assistants like Jarvis to be able to control everything in homes for more people, we need more devices to be connected and the industry needs to develop common APIs and standards for the devices to talk to each other.
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Maybe it knew it was a fraud. I used my phone to give the answer so it may have known not to pretend to be something it's not.
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Here's a timely article today from Mark Zuckerberg on the AI he built for his house: https://www.facebook.com/notes/mark-zuckerberg/building-jarvis/10103347273888091/
Having had a Voice controlled home for about a decade now..... I have to admit the my favorite part is the "voice alerts and warnings". But to be honest.... text alerts... or even just alert bars on my phone can be nice too.... (for things like my garage door). I think more text notice capabilities would be nice.
Although remote controlling the lights in my Home Theater without having to leave my recliner.... is what brought me to X10. The longer I use Home Automation... the more I want the products I use to be more intuitive and not depend on my input. Macros, sensors, and timers help a lot. A little AI would really be the holly grail of Home Automation.
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For assistants like Jarvis to be able to control everything in homes for more people, we need more devices to be connected and the industry needs to develop common APIs and standards for the devices to talk to each other
I think this quote captures the state of the art.
Whereas free market forces will generally drive the market to 2-3 competing brands... it may take longer than I will ever see. Meanwhile... we have the longtime forum favored..... work-arounds.
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Perhaps the subject of this thread should have been "Home Automation has gone mainstream leaving X10 in the dust."
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X10 is still viable. "Leaving it in the dust" would only apply if the portion of the problem X10 addresses was fully replaced by a different/significantly better solution. The part of this thread that's interesting is the controller side rather than the controlled side. The automation hub that X10 provides isn't anything compared to what new solutions can deliver, but it can be used as a component that responds to a smarter hub. IOW, the CM15A/AHP solution is ok at doing what it does (timers, macros, responding to basic sensors with basic actions) but that doesn't do what newer voice controlled systems can do. But, that's OK! I don't use voice control on my setup (HomeGenie via RPi), but that feature has been available from the beginning of that HA software (http://www.homegenie.it Voice control is and has always been a feature). I'm not promoting HG, but just to say that Echo/Alexa/etc are out of the box solutions that can do what other systems have been able to do for some time. Alexa/Echo can communicate with HomeSeer right now and I think HG has a plugin too.
Basically, X10 and all other automation systems aren't in the dust...they are being dusted off by these new controllers as far as new users to HA see it. But for people who have been doing this for some time, the new features are simply more accessible but nearly identical to what's been available to the more dedicated for ages.
EDIT: Oh, and I forgot someone actually made a video of their HG Jarvis setup last year:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeDQ-Wes-Mc
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EDIT: Oh, and I forgot someone actually made a video of their HG Jarvis setup last year:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeDQ-Wes-Mc
Both Jarvis incarnations need the cloud and Google Voice. For those who prefer sunny skies, Windows 10 IoT Core has speech recognition builtin and there have been similar DIY implementations using it on a Raspberry Pi. Here are numerous links...
https://www.bing.com/search?q=make+magic+mirror+iot+pi&pc=MOZI&form=MOZTSB (https://www.bing.com/search?q=make+magic+mirror+iot+pi&pc=MOZI&form=MOZTSB)
And, Cortana will come to W10 IoT Core in 2017...
https://www.bing.com/search?q=windows+10+iot+core+cortana&qs=n&form=QBRE&sp=-1&ghc=1&pq=windows+10+iot+core+cortana&sc=2-27&sk=&cvid=D58BF52F477C4B7098CD7EE5C2379B2E (https://www.bing.com/search?q=windows+10+iot+core+cortana&qs=n&form=QBRE&sp=-1&ghc=1&pq=windows+10+iot+core+cortana&sc=2-27&sk=&cvid=D58BF52F477C4B7098CD7EE5C2379B2E)
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X10 is still viable. ......
Basically, X10 and all other automation systems aren't in the dust...they are being dusted off by these new controllers as far as new users to HA see it. But for people who have been doing this for some time, the new features are simply more accessible but nearly identical to what's been available to the more dedicated for ages.
I agree completely! I could ramble on endlessly about how, and why, some various home automation types and uses are popular or on the rise. But... I'd even bore myself. But X10 is good solid time-tested stuff. Everyone has their own wants/needs/desires from HA. And every new product/idea ultimately... adds more cumulative value to HA as a whole.
X10 may never tell me what todays high temperature will be (Siri just did). But X10 will turn on some lights for me tonight (and every night) at dusk. BOTH are good HA.
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My DOT arrived today. I knew it would... not like the old days.... the trackers let you know when and where items are in the shipping process.
Interestingly... while doing a little searching in anticipation of the DOT's arrival I discovered several how-to books about the DOT (and echo family of products). I read a few samples. Selected one that mentioned it was for the 2nd gen DOT. And downloaded it to my phone. This looks like fun!
Opened the box. Took only minutes to set it up (downloaded an app to my phone. Ran setup) OMG.... this little thing is just awesome.
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Well, some family members figured it was about time for me to expand my horizons as well, and I got a Google Home and a Philips Hue starter kit (3 bulbs). Set things up today and have been playing around all day with it. I quickly found that with the limited amount of integrations built in to Google Home the quickest way to add some oomph to the system was to get started building IFTTT applets. You can custom program any voice command that the Google Assistant hears and then use that to trigger changes to the Hue lights. At the moment I have all three bulbs in the same room (in lights that wouldn't react consistently to X10 commands, so it has in effect made my overall system more useful. Unfortunately, I don't have a way to connect Google Home to my X10 stuff yet, but it looks like HomeSeer has IFTTT integration that could do the trick.
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Well, some family members figured it was about time for me to expand my horizons as well, and I got a Google Home and a Philips Hue starter kit (3 bulbs). Set things up today and have been playing around all day with it................. I don't have a way to connect Google Home to my X10 stuff yet, but it looks like HomeSeer has IFTTT integration that could do the trick.
Tuicemen may have found a way to use X10 with the [amazon] DOT.. using HA-bridge (http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=29697.msg167374#msg167374).... you might want to check that out. But all that stuff is a bit over-my-head.
The Google device looks nice. The Philips Hue device is nice as well.... it is also compatible with Amazons echo (what I got) and my iPhone too I believe. IMHO we should keep up with the new stuff.... There is just so much great automation available.
I've been running a 3rd party voice control software (BVC) to control my X10 setup for about a decade. Whereas the new devices have a LOT to offer.... and GREAT voice recognition. The old SAPI5 windows XP stuff with BVC (Bill's Voice Commander) had a lot going for it too. These new voice recognition devices are just plain AWESOME! But... in some small ways the old stuff had a bit more as far as customization of voice responses.
My first thought was.... to somehow get X10 under the control of my new (Amazon echo DOT) device. I'd bet that's most people 1st thought too.
But I've been rethinking some of my original thoughts. The way things stand now.... if I could just switch-over and control my X10 via my new DOT device.... I'd lose a ton of stuff controlled now via my AHP. Not to mention the many text-to-speech voice notices and alerts I currently get with my X10/BVC/PC setup.
I am currently looking at the new automation as a stand-alone setup, running along with my other (X10) stuff.
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When my previous computer died I decided all my HA stuff needs to run without being tethered to an always-on PC. I didn't bother with trying to move my registered AHP from my old PC, I did copy over my save file and run AHP when I need to update something, but I store everything in the interface.
Not having used BVC or being accustomed to having any sort of voice interface, I'll push forward using Google Home/IFTTT. With IFTTT you can program any command to GH with up to two alternates and program the response you want GH to say to acknowledge that it understood the command and is running the IFTTT applet. For example, I set up "Good Night" with an alternate of "Night Time" to trigger Hue to turn off all the lights and respond with "Sweet dreams". Not bad for 30 seconds of "programming".
I'm still researching the HomeSeer stuff to get a better understanding of how it works with the CM15a plugin, but I could be convinced to shell out $200 for something that's going to bridge the old and the new. We will see after I've spent a couple weeks with GH. I still don't see making a big investment in Hue bulbs, but some strategically placed ones tied to GH seems helpful.
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I'm still researching the HomeSeer stuff to get a better understanding of how it works with the CM15a plugin, but I could be convinced to shell out $200 for something that's going to bridge the old and the new. We will see after I've spent a couple weeks with GH. I still don't see making a big investment in Hue bulbs, but some strategically placed ones tied to GH seems helpful.
You don't need to shell out $200 to bridge your old with new.
mini low power PCs are plentiful on ebay some even run windows 10, though most run Linux or Android.
Alex10 (http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=29701.0) is free as is HA-bridge.
HA-Bridge will run on any OS even android and apple too bad the X10 hardware doesn't.
.... you might want to check that out. But all that stuff is a bit over-my-head.
Dave this is easier then setting up BVC! Your over thinking things.
Jump in I won't let you drown. ;) True without Alex10 setup may be a little complicated but it is still doable.
You can even use the AHCMD.exe (from the SDK) with HA-Bridge.
>!
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... Dave this is easier then setting up BVC! Your over thinking things.
Jump in I won't let you drown. ;) True without Alex10 setup may be a little complicated but it is still doable.
You can even use the AHCMD.exe (from the SDK) with HA-Bridge.
>!
OK... how about a link to Alex10. Would love to make this work.
Not having used BVC or being accustomed to having any sort of voice interface, I'll push forward using Google Home/IFTTT. With IFTTT you can program any command to GH with up to two alternates and program the response you want GH to say to acknowledge that it understood the command and is running the IFTTT applet. For example, I set up "Good Night" with an alternate of "Night Time" to trigger Hue to turn off all the lights and respond with "Sweet dreams". Not bad for 30 seconds of "programming".
I haven't found the way (if there is one) within the Amazon DOT to get a customized response. I'll miss that... that is a nice feature with BVC. It is so nice to re-travel some of these old familiar HA projects.
https://youtu.be/5FFRoYhTJQQ (https://youtu.be/5FFRoYhTJQQ)
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You don't need to shell out $200 to bridge your old with new.
mini low power PCs are plentiful on ebay some even run windows 10, though most run Linux or Android.
Alex10 (http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=29701.0) is free as is HA-bridge.
HA-Bridge will run on any OS even android and apple too bad the X10 hardware doesn't.
Maybe I'll play with HA-bridge on my main PC for a bit and see what it can do, but $200 for a purpose-built always on HA controller doesn't seem bad, especially with all the HomeSeer plugins available and how good the software sounds.
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OK... how about a link to Alex10. Would love to make this work.
I'll PM you a link
I haven't found the way (if there is one) within the Amazon DOT to get a customized response. I'll miss that... that is a nice feature with BVC. It is so nice to re-travel some of these old familiar HA projects.
I haven't found away to get one from Alexa yet either however It should be possible maybe in one of the skills but then chances are we would need new hardware too.
At least Alexa tripping X10 can get BVC to send a response. If BVC had command line options you could have Alexa talk directly to it without sending a X10 command.
I've played with that aspect and PCC.
Maybe I'll play with HA-bridge on my main PC for a bit and see what it can do, but $200 for a purpose-built always on HA controller doesn't seem bad, especially with all the HomeSeer plugins available and how good the software sounds.
HA-Bridge can trigger any thing that will respond to a web call or command line it also has built in stuff for the Philips hue, Harmony, and I few others.
If you have no problems with creating scripts it will be a piece of cake.
In order for it to work with X10 you'll need a X10 program that will except command line calls or a web call using HTTP or one of the other web possible services.
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Maybe I'll play with HA-bridge on my main PC for a bit and see what it can do, but $200 for a purpose-built always on HA controller doesn't seem bad, especially with all the HomeSeer plugins available and how good the software sounds.
At $200, it's not a panacea. It has a limitation of 5 plugins so be careful. The X10 stuff works, but it's not bullet proof, then again X10 was never bullet proof anyways. I'm actually thinking of switching to a USB PC stick for zwave, a USB zigbee stick and of course my CM15A. I would have to buy the zwave stick and homeseer software, the same for zigbee. The mini PC has wifi and bluetooth so I should be good until the next great protocol comes out. If I do make this jump, I'll post results and I'll give you a great deal on my Zee S2 if you decide to jump in.
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You could most likely control Zwave with the HA-Bridge, I know it is possible if you have a Vera unit.
Also if you had iHouse I know it was Zwave capable and HA-Bridge will work with it.
>!
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In addition to having Wifi, X10 and Zwave devices, I also have the X10 SC1200 panel with three door sensors, two water sensors and a motion sensor. I would prefer to incorporate that system into my HA and not have to buy new devices. Homeseer "might" see the SC1200 devices but would probably require a WGL RF receiver and another plug-in.
So I'm looking at a GO!Control monitoring system. I don't really need another keypad since a proximity sensor could disarm the system through Homeseer when I get home and arm automatically as I leave. But I'm used to the ding dong chime of the SC1200 when a door opens.
This whole thing is not becoming simpler. :-\
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If I do make this jump, I'll post results and I'll give you a great deal on my Zee S2 if you decide to jump in.
Sure... let me know!
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I'm not one to tell others what to do, but if you are considering a switch to Homeseer, you might want to take a few minutes and check out Homegenie. I've been running it for a couple years and it really does work well for all my X10 stuff. It works with many other systems (not all), but can be expanded with some programming knowledge. The best part (what convinced me to switch) was the real programming capabilities. It supports C#, Python, a AHP-like simple scripting language, etc. It's not perfect, but it is really pretty nice and being free is great as well.
If you're happy with the system you picked, cool! Just offering another option if you are looking to switch.
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I'm not one to tell others what to do, but if you are considering a switch to Homeseer, you might want to take a few minutes and check out Homegenie.
A couple HG questions...
1. Are the TTS and Speech Recognition available on all platforms (i.e. operating systems) or limited to certain ones?
2. What do they mean by web based?
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1) I haven't used the TTS but I believe it works on both Linux and Windows. Don't quote me on that as I haven't researched it but I believe I've seen threads showing it. HG works on Mono which means any platform that runs Mono can run HG (Linux, Mac, Windows, etc). But you are correct that all extensions may not be available if they rely on a specific platform.
2) Web based does not mean a cloud device. HG runs locally through a web server (not Apache but I don't recall at the moment which one). I run mine on a headless RPi. I can access it from any web browser on either my LAN or the internet. It also has a few options for smart phone apps (2x Android, 1 Windows phone, 0 iOS to my knowledge) but a web browser works so the app is not truly required. It runs autonomously with timers, macros, and scripts.
I can look around to see if there are any more details on the TTS engine if you are interested.
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I can look around to see if there are any more details on the TTS engine if you are interested.
My interest is more academic than personal. I thought the forum might benefit from more detailed knowledge from a user, especially given the current discussions about Alexa, Siri, et al. I've looked at their web site but, obviously, haven't dug deeply. HG has certainly progressed over the past few years.
Is there a critical web server that would cripple your access should it disappear or is all data local?
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I haven't found the way (if there is one) within the Amazon DOT to get a customized response. I'll miss that... that is a nice feature with BVC. It is so nice to re-travel some of these old familiar HA projects.
I think I may have found a way to do some custom responses.
From everything I've read you need the IFTTT app. once setup you create your own applet and select Amazon Alexa
Select the trigger then the response.
Unfortunately being in Canada this isn't supported here so I can't test it out B:( :'( :'(
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........ you need the IFTTT app. once setup you create your own applet and select Amazon Alexa ...
The problem is... I won't be creating applets or writing/editing scripts. I understand... for a lot of HA guys.... HA and creating code is all-the-same. But I am really limited to programs.
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........ you need the IFTTT app. once setup you create your own applet and select Amazon Alexa ...
The problem is... I won't be creating applets or writing/editing scripts. I understand... for a lot of HA guys.... HA and creating code is all-the-same. But I am really limited to programs.
IFTTT applets aren't even script writing, they're very simple (a bit too simple in my mind). You just pick your "If" service, then your "Then" service. Give it some parameters and turn it on. Check it out.
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Give it some parameters and turn it on.
But where is simplified version of the script stored? Isn't it online? I've browsed their website and some things aren't quite clear.
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What solareclipse said! Dave your over thinking things, the biggest obstacle I found was finding the Alexa link in the applet section. It is easier then setting up a Smartmacro in AHP (well not for me since it isn't supported here yet).
Give it some parameters and turn it on.
But where is simplified version of the script stored? Isn't it online? I've browsed their website and some things aren't quite clear.
By everything I read it is stored in the cloud.
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Is there a critical web server that would cripple your access should it disappear or is all data local?
All of the data required to run HG is local. There are some APPs that use the internet (cloud if you prefer), but they are not required. I'm thinking specifically about weather and sunrise/sunset data. HG can pull data from Weather Underground based on a location specified. It's possible to write functions that rely on the weather forecast, so if WU disappeared, some functionality could be compromised. However, since you have full access to the functions/code, changing to a different server is definitely possible.
There was actually a second weather APP that used to be available but that server changed to a paid service. When that happened, I switched back to WU.
The only thing that might be an issue is that WU is used for sunrise/sunset time calculations by default. There is a different APP that I use for calculating these which does not use a network connection. If WU or your internet went down and the default setting was used, lights might not turn on/off exactly at the right time. If either went down for a long time, the difference between actual and HG sunrise/sunset would get worse.
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What solareclipse said! Dave your over thinking things, the biggest obstacle I found was finding the Alexa link in the applet section. It is easier then setting up a Smartmacro in AHP (well not for me since it isn't supported here yet).
I don't know.... Smartmacros came with a little instruction booklet. I haven't found any instructions for this other stuff.
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A booklet?
I never got one of those. ::) :'
As for instructions for IFTTT: Here's one of many (https://www.lynda.com/Business-Productivity-tutorials/Up-Running-IFTTT/156760-2.html?utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=l1-US-Search-Biz-IFTTT&cid=l1-us:en:ps:lp:prosc:s29:29:all:bing:xct-ifttt_instructions&utm_content=%7Bcreative%7D&utm_term=%5BIFTTT%20Instructions%5D&src=pa-bi&veh=skwd-26863692953_pcrid_6786162492_pkw_%5BIFTTT%20Instructions%5D_pmt_be_pdv_c_agid_2708960639_cmid_72622704_adp_%7Badposition%7D_net_o_qs_ifttt%20instructions)
>!
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The only thing that might be an issue is that WU is used for sunrise/sunset time calculations by default. There is a different APP that I use for calculating these which does not use a network connection. If WU or your internet went down and the default setting was used, lights might not turn on/off exactly at the right time. If either went down for a long time, the difference between actual and HG sunrise/sunset would get worse.
Internet or none, screw the calculation; that's still just faking the sunrise/sunset time! I decided a while back that I could get more precise sunrise/sunset data for my location (make sure you're sitting down for this crazy idea...) at my location. I already have an X10 PR511 motion floodlight module under the eave on the front of my house. One of its optional features is to send an ON command on any combination of 4 unit codes when it detects a sun down condition and an OFF command when it detects a sun up condition (for turning on/off nighttime lights). Most of the X10 wireless motion detectors will provide the same functionality on one unit code. Everything can be scheduled around that one piece of data. That's what the feature is for!
The only problem is that there's not much in the module to filter out errant conditions. Once the light level crosses the threshold, the command is sent within about 2 seconds. Variations in cloud cover or an object momentarily passing in front of the sensor could potentially falsely trigger it. The opposite can also occur; the PR511 is a dumb transmitter and doesn't check the line before transmitting, so there is the occasional chance that a collision could occur and the ON or OFF command could fail to be be received when the sunrise/sunset transition occurs. So here is my algorithm for filtering out these errant conditions:
- Once a new state command (ON or OFF) is received, the state must remain consistent (no opposite state command received) for at least 5 minutes to be considered by the following rules.
- If the new state is ON (sundown)...
- and the currently known state is OFF (sunup)...
- and 7+ hours in the day have passed since the last validated OFF (sunup) transition time...
- and the current time is within +/-30 minutes of the last validated (usually previous day's) ON (sundown) transition
-OR-
3+ days have passed since an ON (sundown) transition could be matched to the previous validated one using the +/-30 minute rule...
- ==> Validate (log) the new ON (sundown) transition time and update the event schedules.
- If the new state is OFF (sunup)...
- and the currently known state is ON (sundown)...
- and 7+ hours in the day have passed since the last validated ON (sundown) transition time...
- and the current time is within +/-30 minutes of the last validated (usually previous day's) OFF (sunup) transition
-OR-
3+ days have passed since an OFF (sunup) transition could be matched to the previous validated one using the +/-30 minute rule...
- ==> Validate (log) the new OFF (sunup) transition time and update the event schedules.
- Until a new ON (sundown) or OFF (sunup) transition is validated by the above algorithm, the previous validated time is used to schedule events.
- All time calculations take the DST offset into consideration so that the comparison to validated times will survive a Daylight Saving Time transition.
Events are scheduled using offsets of the validated times. The drapery for the large picture window on the front of the house closes earliest to prevent snooping neighbors from seeing inside from a distance once the ambient light level outside is dimmer than inside. The shade on the smaller kitchen window closes a little later. The shade on the back of the house closes last of all, since we like to watch the sunset.
There are many ways to do this, and even X10WTI included automatic sunrise/sunset calculation in AHP rather than using signals from local modules, but I figured I might as well use the more precise local data since I have it!
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Agreed, calculations are not ideal for sunrise/sunset. As we all know, a cloudy day will actually get dark sooner than a clear day. What we really want is for the lights to come on and turn off based on the actual ambient lighting rather than where the sun is relative to the site's location. However, I decided that trying to use signals from the PR511 or MS16A or whatnot were too problematic for the very reason you stated. Passing clouds at noon could potentially trigger dusk and depending on the code that triggers off that signal, everything could be thrown for a loop.
IMO, a better approach to using either a calculation or using an X10 sensor would be to use a combination of time of day and a luminescence sensor. With an actual light level (not a trip point) and a time of day, one could more logically determine if lower light levels should be interpreted as dusk. I'm envisioning something on the lines of
If time is between (1 hour after sunrise*) and (1 hour before sunset*) and light level is high = day
If time is between (1 hour after sunset*) and (1 hour before sunrise*) and light level is low = night
If time is between [(sunrise*) and (1 hour before sunrise*)] or [(1 hour before sunset*) and (sunset*)] and light level is low = trigger night conditions
*calculated
Anyway, this can be done pretty easily in HG as well, but I don't have a luminescence sensor or the desire to mess with the potential fallout from the wife if my enhanced night detection breaks a bunch of stuff. Using a calculation is very good and the easiest solution to it getting dark early or light a bit late is simply to add an offset (which I do).
>!
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Agreed, calculations are not ideal for sunrise/sunset. As we all know, a cloudy day will actually get dark sooner than a clear day. What we really want is for the lights to come on and turn off based on the actual ambient lighting rather than where the sun is relative to the site's location. However, I decided that trying to use signals from the PR511 or MS16A or whatnot were too problematic for the very reason you stated. Passing clouds at noon could potentially trigger dusk and depending on the code that triggers off that signal, everything could be thrown for a loop.
I mix and match sun/light day/night based timers. It doesn't hurt to have a light turn on when a storm rolls in and presents itself as sunset. I've actually been warned by just such event... when sunset lights came on mid-day. And when the storm passes BEFORE sunset... you have an artificial sunrise... and all returns to normal (assuming parallel timers). I also run timers along with light detection. I like knowing at what "time" a macro is triggered. And I run these macros on a non-internet connected PC... it loses about 2 minutes a year... I can live with that.
I like bkenobi's idea of using "conditional macros" in the setup as well.
The more I lean into the "new" HA devices.... the greater my appreciation for the abilities of AHP... connected to a PC. Still today... AHP is a powerful HA device.
IFTTT applets aren't even script writing, they're very simple (a bit too simple in my mind). You just pick your "If" service, then your "Then" service. Give it some parameters and turn it on. Check it out.
I am getting there. Besides adding another ihome device (3 now) I also re-installed a light device associated with my (on-line app operated) garage door opener. As time goes on... I may start using some of the WiFi light bulbs and various sensors and detectors that can determine by our Bluetooth phones who is in the house and where.
Also along with the DOT... I setup a Wink Hub (the original NOT a hub2). This should.... allow me to connect services without venturing into accounts that are also associated with purchases.
But... again... I am still well pleased with the X10 setup, devices, various software, and AHP.
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The more I lean into the "new" HA devices.... the greater my appreciation for the abilities of AHP... connected to a PC. Still today... AHP is a powerful HA device.
This I agree with. I'm amazed at a lot of the things I can't do yet "out of the box" with Hue, Google Home, and even when including some of the integration tools I'm playing with like IFTTT and Tasker.
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The more I lean into the "new" HA devices.... the greater my appreciation for the abilities of AHP... connected to a PC. Still today... AHP is a powerful HA device.
This I agree with. I'm amazed at a lot of the things I can't do yet "out of the box" with Hue, Google Home, and even when including some of the integration tools I'm playing with like IFTTT and Tasker.
It makes me wonder if.... we (pronounced, ME) just didn't realized how good we had it with AHP. Or maybe the success of AHP came partly for the imagination and creativity of the many devoted X10 users. A PC/phone programmable AHP internet connected hub.... that could connect to the Google and Amazon voice devices. As well as speak X10 RF, PLC, and the other flavors of HA devices (including cameras)... could be a whole new X10 business.
Whatever the future holds for HA. I am happy to see that at least... HA does appear to have an active future.
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If it weren't for the signal loss, signal suckling electrical gadget interference, the poor RF range, etc... did I forget anything... some kind of WiFi integration...
Other than that I thoroughly enjoyed X10 and unfortunately I will probably have to go to through a significant learning curve with zwave commands. Also, X10 modules are more reasonably priced and more robust, IMO.
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A PC/phone programmable AHP internet connected hub.... that could connect to the Google and Amazon voice devices. As well as speak X10 RF, PLC, and the other flavors of HA devices (including cameras)... could be a whole new X10 business.
-:) I'd buy it today.
Right now if I want to use a voice command to have Google Home turn on 3 Hue bulbs in three different rooms, I need Google Home > an IFTTT applet that transmits a URL to > the AutoRemote app on my phone which sends a command to > Tasker on my phone which runs the actions using the > HuePro Tasker plugin on my phone.
My phone has quickly become an integral part of my HA system.
If it weren't for the signal loss, signal suckling electrical gadget interference, the poor RF range, etc... did I forget anything... some kind of WiFi integration...
This too. Any new generation of X10 devices needs to be functional in a household with a typical array of current-day electronics. Crank the powerline signal way up.
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SmartHome Insteon devices fix a lot of the issues you talk about by simply being dual mode (PLC + RF) and inherently perform repeating operations. Adding a few filters to the nasty devices as necessary should mean a very well behaved system that performs in much the same way as X10. That said, the components are much more expensive and no longer send/listen to X10 signals.
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A PC/phone programmable AHP internet connected hub.... that could connect to the Google and Amazon voice devices. As well as speak X10 RF, PLC, and the other flavors of HA devices (including cameras)... could be a whole new X10 business.
Sorta like this?
https://www.laser.com/dhouston/ultimate-X10.html (https://www.laser.com/dhouston/ultimate-X10.html)
This is beginning to look very doable. I have a preliminary hardware design and will order a few PCBs for testing soon. I'm waiting to see whether ZBasic or Basic4Arduino release ESP32 compilers. Both are working on it. If not, it's supported by the Arduino IDE, MicroPython, LUA,...
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I knew there was something else. First the RF signal doesn't travel far enough so I tried a repeater. No combination ever worked properly. Either still no joy or I would get double signals coming through which made the SC1200 ding twice. At other times spurious signals would make the SC1200 chime when there was nothing going on.
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I knew there was something else. First the RF signal doesn't travel far enough so I tried a repeater. No combination ever worked properly. Either still no joy or I would get double signals coming through which made the SC1200 ding twice. At other times spurious signals would make the SC1200 chime when there was nothing going on.
You can see HUGE improvements in RF range with a better antenna on the receiving end and/or by adding a passive radiator at the transmitter. I've shown the former for several receivers on my web page under Improving **** RF Reception and the latter under X10 RF Feng Shui.
https://www.laser.com/dhouston/ (https://www.laser.com/dhouston/)
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You can see HUGE improvements in RF range with a better antenna on the receiving end and/or by adding a passive radiator at the transmitter.
I've seen this and other solutions for most of the ailments. My issue is that this stuff should work by itself without having to buy/manufacture anything special. X10 was an awesome way of transmitting signals many years ago, but it didn't keep up with the changes.
I don't see the owner's of X10 doing anything other than minor changes trying to keep the product line alive. Even something as simple as having an accessory for the Universal Module so it can tell AHP if the garage door is opened or closed. Sure a door sensor can be used but then I'm back to the RF range issue.
On top of that, there's a software front end that hasn't been updated and had to be hacked in order to get some plugins to work.
And through all these complaints I still use X10 for some simple things, however I sure do wish I could use it more reliably for a lot more.
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By and large I agree. Rather than make simple changes to their RF transceivers, X10WTI preferred to sell multiple transceivers and/or repeaters. Given that one of the first new devices under Authinx was another repeater methinks the new boss is the same as the old boss.
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Even something as simple as having an accessory for the Universal Module so it can tell AHP if the garage door is opened or closed
It's not an accessory specifically for the Universal Module per se, but you can use a PowerFlash module to tell AHP whether a set of contacts is open or closed over the power line.
https://www.x10.com/psc01-powerflash-burgular-alarm-interface.html (https://www.x10.com/psc01-powerflash-burgular-alarm-interface.html)
In mode 3, it sends ON when the contacts close and OFF when they open.
A couple of things to note, however: (Aren't there always?)
- You'll have to design your own smart macros or other scheme to make use of these commands.
- The PowerFlash uses a non-polite transmitter, so the transmission could collide with another transmission sent at the same time and result in corrupt or no data received.
You could use an XPT3 instead, which is a polite transmitter and waits until the line is clear and then retransmits until successful. However, the XPT3 is meant to be hardwired in a wall box rather than plugged into an outlet, and you'll need either double-throw contacts on your door switch or two door switches, one normally open and one normally closed. (The XPT3 requires one wire to be shorted to common for an ON signal and a different wire shorted to common for an OFF signal.)
https://www.x10.com/xpt3.html (https://www.x10.com/xpt3.html)
I share all your sentiments regarding the RF issues. The RF protocol was not implemented with handling of retransmissions, acknowledgements, or programmed hops in mind, making it difficult to extend without side effects. I'd like to see those features better accommodated, but I don't know if there is a way to do it and keep it backward compatible. And if you start talking about designing a communication protocol, you may as well jump to Insteon or Z-Wave, which have already done that and had years to work out the bugs.
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This is beginning to look very doable. I have a preliminary hardware design and will order a few PCBs for testing soon.
Yes! I'm hoping that you could eventually have the go-to homebrew solution that helps to keep the platform (and the company behind it) alive. Maybe then you'll eventually get more attention from Authinx!
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@toasterking
I understand, however the issue I had is as simple as hitting open on the palm pad but hitting the button by the garage door to close the garage door on the way out. The X10 never knows that the door is now closed, whereas the zwave garage controller (which is basically the same as a UM module) coordinates with a tiny sensor on the door itself to communicate open or closed regardless of which button gets pressed.
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This is beginning to look very doable. I have a preliminary hardware design and will order a few PCBs for testing soon.
Yes! I'm hoping that you could eventually have the go-to homebrew solution that helps to keep the platform (and the company behind it) alive. Maybe then you'll eventually get more attention from Authinx!
And maybe Authinx will realize they don't need to go over seas to get something developed B:(
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...... use a PowerFlash module to tell AHP whether a set of contacts is open or closed over the power line.
https://www.x10.com/psc01-powerflash-burgular-alarm-interface.html (https://www.x10.com/psc01-powerflash-burgular-alarm-interface.html)
In mode 3, it sends ON when the contacts close and OFF when they open.
A couple of things to note, however: (Aren't there always?)
- You'll have to design your own smart macros or other scheme to make use of these commands.
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I created a "talking" garage door reminder (http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=14721.msg81860#msg81860). If the garage is opened (or closed) it tells you. Left open... and you'll be reminded every few minutes.
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I decided that trying to use signals from the PR511 or MS16A or whatnot were too problematic for the very reason you stated. Passing clouds at noon could potentially trigger dusk and depending on the code that triggers off that signal, everything could be thrown for a loop.
I'm a little surprised to say this myself, but since I implemented the algorithm above to normalize and validate the inferred state, I have had no problems whatsoever with false triggers.
IMO, a better approach to using either a calculation or using an X10 sensor would be to use a combination of time of day and a luminescence sensor. With an actual light level (not a trip point) and a time of day, one could more logically determine if lower light levels should be interpreted as dusk.
I really would prefer a sensor that could give me an analog value as to the actual ambient light level, rather than a trip point, just as you said. I thought about this before ever trying to implement the algorithm above. But I figured I might as well try the X10 sensors I had and see how it goes, then go back to the drawing board if it wasn't good enough and I actually needed more functionality. But so far, it's been plenty good enough! I do have another PR511 mounted under a carport whose low-light sensor trips when it's merely cloudy outside, so I plan to also use that to derive 3 states (sunny/cloudy/night) rather than just day and night.
I like your idea of using the sunrise/sunset schedule calculation together with the light level. In essence, I am already doing that, but my data source is different: Instead of a calculation based on location and time of year, the reference sunrise and sunset time to compare to the current day's activity are based on recent logged behavior.
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The X10 never knows that the door is now closed, whereas the zwave garage controller (which is basically the same as a UM module) coordinates with a tiny sensor on the door
There's the difference. Z-Wave gives you a Garage Controller. X10 gives you a Universal Module and PowerFlash Module and lets you figure out what to do with it. And that's the difference between a product line that started before there was even a market for it and tried to be everything to everyone, and a product line that tries to fill all the niches left in the now-existent market.
And I also get that this is your point. The X10 product line is being kept alive but isn't being kept up to date.
I thought I would offer the suggestions whether or not you needed or cared about implementing them. In particular, the XPT3 is something of a well-kept secret and I'd like to see more done with it. Like, oh, you know, maybe Authinx could use its guts and make a Garage Controller.
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I created a "talking" garage door reminder (http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=14721.msg81860#msg81860). If the garage is opened (or closed) it tells you. Left open... and you'll be reminded every few minutes.
Hey, that's a nice combination of safety and stewardship!
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And maybe Authinx will realize they don't need to go over seas to get something developed
I don't see the problem as being where they go to get something produced (although made in the USA means a lot to me), but development needs to be at and from the root users. The ideas that flow from this forum are amazing and fantastic. The power users here are clearly a cut above the average user (as they are on most techie type forums).However, there is generally no new blood, just a few guys maintaining an existing system or maybe someone new that bought a lot of used stuff somewhere. To boot, many seasoned veterans are integrating non-X10 items.
Come to think of it, when was the last time anyone from Authinx officially said something here?
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I created a "talking" garage door reminder (http://forums.x10.com/index.php?topic=14721.msg81860#msg81860). If the garage is opened (or closed) it tells you. Left open... and you'll be reminded every few minutes.
Hey, that's a nice combination of safety and stewardship!
A couple years ago my garage door opener (after decades of service) failed. I replaced it with a Chamberlain... with the WiFi unit. So it can be controlled via my phone.... and my wife and I get alerts/updates/status on our iphones when the door is opened/closed. So we are completly covered with the BIG doors activity.
.... The ideas that flow from this forum are amazing and fantastic......... However, there is generally no new blood, just a few guys maintaining an existing system ........To boot, many seasoned veterans are integrating non-X10 items.
It's true. X10 hasn't been keeping up. X10 has gone from the founders of a new technology... to the "original standard". But there ain't nothing wrong with the protocol. There is as much life left in the X10 brand as management allows.
I've seen the new blood. Still lots of interest in HA and futuristic technologies! Maybe interest in HA has skipped a generation... but the young appreciate and enjoy HA tech. Amazon sold out of the DOT devices close to Christmas (now back in stock). They sold MILLIONS of the things. (http://venturebeat.com/2016/12/27/amazon-says-it-sold-millions-of-alexa-devices-over-holiday-sales-of-echo-up-9x-over-last-year/).
And whereas these forums evolved from the old "white boards".... the new way to exchange info and socialize is over the social media pages. Our grandkids like what we've done with HA... and the torch has been passed. But I think we still have a lot we can do! Until my home and car communicate to me through my virtual companion... (who knows what I might want and/or need) my setup isn't done.
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I really would prefer a sensor that could give me an analog value as to the actual ambient light level, rather than a trip point, just as you said.
http://aeotec.com/z-wave-sensor
I know there are likely others at this point, but the Aeotech sensor is the one I've seen used for light level on other forums. I looked at it, but it requires a zwave receiver and the device. For one light reading the setup was going to cost well over $100 which I wasn't interested in at the time. If you are adding a zwave receiver anyway, I think something that can do light level could be added for relatively cheap these days. The other alternative is to use some kind of DIY project (Arduino, ESP8266, RPi, etc) to read a simple light sensor. That could then be used any way you want!
https://learn.adafruit.com/photocells/using-a-photocell
http://iot-playground.com/forum/my-project/247-light-sensor-esp8266-bb05-with-arduino-ide
https://learn.adafruit.com/basic-resistor-sensor-reading-on-raspberry-pi/basic-photocell-reading
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..... The other alternative is to use some kind of DIY project (Arduino, ESP8266, RPi, etc) to read a simple light sensor. That could then be used any way you want!
I can't count the times I have considered buying an Arduino kit... and shifting gears in that direction.
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The ESP8266 is supported by the Arduino IDE. Using something like the WeMos D1 mini can greatly simplify creating WiFi enabled sensors for light, temperature, humidity, barometric pressure, and more.
https://www.wemos.cc/product (https://www.wemos.cc/product)
And, if you are a programming neophyte, Basic4Arduino (free) also supports the ESP8266.
https://www.b4x.com/b4r.html (https://www.b4x.com/b4r.html)
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Arduino's are cheap enough that I'd recommend picking one up (a clone works just like the official if you want to go even cheaper). But, the other boards are also pretty cool. I have a few Arduino projects and purchased a couple ESP boards to allow WiFi by moving the old projects over. The learning curve has been steep and I haven't made much progress on them, but doing simple tutorials is pretty fun anyway. Heck, there are plenty of Instructables for various projects that can get you a full DIY project based on instructions that actually do something beyond the simple blinking light tutorial.