X10 Community Forum
🔌General Home Automation => Automating Your House => Troubleshooting Automation Problems => Topic started by: skipfire on February 13, 2017, 08:04:45 PM
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I have 2 3-way lights I am trying to hook up with WS469s and CS277s.
With the WS469 connected in just 2-way the lights can go on and off and respond to remote commands.
With the CS277 control wire connected, the CS277 can turn the lights off, but not on. The remote will turn the lights off, but with lights off if I use the remote to turn the lights on they just give either 1 or 2 flickers (maybe 1/10th of a second each) then stay off. Since the CS277 will turn the lights off, and I know which is the live and lamp from the 2-way test, the wiring should be correct.
The 2 sets of 3-way switches are both on the same circuit breaker and located in the same boxes.
I would appreciate any suggestions on what might be wrong and how I can fix it.
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I suspect you do have a wiring error.
The fact that the CS277 can turn it off is not a positive verification the wiring is correct.
Did you verify each wire with a meter or voltage tester? If you did there can be false readings if the load was not disconnected.
Did you by chance. Write down what each color wire was on the original switch terminals? It is fairly easy to mix up a Traveler with a load or line wire on the common terminal of the old switch.
The WS469 needs a real Neutral Power Connection. If the White wire from the original setup was connected to the switch. It is not a neutral power connection.
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I found the LOAD wire coming from the WS469 but disconnecting the CS277 completely and finding which wire changed voltage when I flipped the WS469 on and off. Connecting that wire to the wire I believe to be the wire to the lights then had the lights controlled by the WS469, so that should positively identify the live and lamp wires, the old switch only had one other wire which should be the control wire.
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I can't access the manual (work filtering authentix for some reason), but looking at the WS4777 and WS13A manuals, they are very different. WS4777 is a 2-wire+traveler and the WS13A is a 3 wire+traveler. The WS4777 wires the CS277 between the master and the controlled device with some small power always traveling to the companion. The WS13A uses a WS14A as a companion but it does not connect to the controlled device at all. I'm not sure how the WS469 works, but it's probably like the WS13A/WS14A since a relay would not be a 2-wire setup meaning the traveler will not be live when switched off.
Anyway, are you sure it's wired per the manual?
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As far as I can tell it is right. I do see about a small voltage (< 3v) running through the live wire when it is "off" at the WS469. I have identified the line that goes on and off as the WS469 goes on and off, I identified the line that connects it to the lamp and the WS469 switching on/off makes the light go on/off. There's only 1 wire left so that has to be the control wire, and since that does work for turning off it seems to be correct.
If you have other suggestions on how to confirm the wiring feel free to let me know. The instructions show blue to blue (live) and red to red (control), which I seem to have accomplished.
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Actually, there is a sensing circuit on some modules to determine if a device is switched on/off for local control (forget what it's called). This can result in unintended actuation of modules under the right conditions and look like you live with a ghost. I haven't used that module, so I'm not sure how it works.
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Since a three way switch setup can be done in a few ways.
I suspect there is still a miswire somewhere.
Sometimes meters can give false readings as they are high impedance. I suspect the 3 volts you are seeing is just leakage or induced noise. Especially if you still have the load in the fixtures connected. You can get false readings sometimes.
You maybe best to physically look in all the electrical boxes and the fixture to write down exactly what is connected to what.
If you find a White wire with Black paint or electrical tape on the insulation. It is probably a Line Voltage in a switch loop.
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I have identified the individual wires and I know matching ends in each box, with the breaker off I used a continuity tester so I am positive that I have identified the wires and have it all wired as marked.
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Thanks for the information. I was not sure if you had rung all the wiring out.
So you have it wired like this and it does not work correctly?
WS469 Black AC Line Input, White AC Neutral, Blue Load Output to one of the Blue wires on the CS277, other Blue wire on CS277 to the lights, Red on the CS277 to the Red on the WS469. Load has Neutral connected maybe inside the fixture.
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Yes, correct on all of those.
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And as the WS469 works correctly that would tend to reinforce that the only wire possibly wrong there is the control wire.
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I just had another thought.
I don't remember seeing the type of load you are controlling. Incandescent, LED, CFL ?
I have never used a WS469 with the On Off switch in it. If it is like other X10 relay modules. It has a small sensing current on the output. To sense if it is On or Off. Some loads may not pull the sensing voltage low enough when Off. So the module thinks it is On when it is Off. If the fixture can have an incandescent bulb in it for a test. See if anything changes.
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The load on each is 4 LED can lights. The WS469 says it is the switch to use for non-incandescent lighting.
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I don't know if this is applicable, but on some modules there is a minimum load. I have a motion sensor that requires 40W to work. I tried using a 25W bulb and it did not work. When I put a 40W bulb in, everything was fine.
Could your LED bulbs could sum to less than the minimum load? I think a 60W incandescent is comparable to a 23W CFL and a 6W LED. If so, 6W would be 36W for 4 bulbs. I could be completely wrong too.
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The WS469 works perfectly without the control wire for the CS277 connected, so it doesn't seem that it would be a load issue or it should never work.
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Does it make a difference if the control wire is disconnected at the CS277 end or the WS469 end?
Maybe the control wire from the CS277 to the WS469 is picking up stray noise, between them.
I have no data on the new WS469 so I can't say how touchy the sensor input. It should not but who knows.
If possible, I would still suggest trying an incandescent bulb load. It is possible the LED load is making noise on the load output wire. That is effecting the sensor operation.
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When I disconnected the control wire I did so at the CS277 which would be the way to generate the most noise. I don't have any non-LED bulbs to try it with.
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There is a thread on Jeff's Forum where a user was having issues when a WS469 was used as a test for a possible bad master part of a WS4777 set.
On the WS469 does the Red indicator glow as expected when it is off and there is a small current lighting the it through the load?
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The WS469 has a "nightlight" on it that lights when it is set to off, and that is working correctly.
Also, this behavior is happening with 2 WS469s + CS277s that go into the same switch boxes, I would not expect to have 2 fail in exactly the same way.
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There is a thread on Jeff's forums.
Where a WS469 was causing similar issues with a CS277 that you are seeing. When used as a replacement test for a WS477.
Though there maybe a wiring differences between a WS477 or WS469 with a CS277. Depending on the older instruction sheet for a WS4777 kit or the latest one on the X10 sales site that I am looking at. ::)
That maybe a contributor to the issue in their case.
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I swapped places of the CS277 and the WS469 so that the CS277 is closer to the circuit box and the WS469 is closer to the load (electrically speaking, not physically) and both buttons work and the remote works about 90%.
Not sure why that works better, but it does and I'll take it.